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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted on 11/01/03 07:47PM (server time: GMT 0)

Okay, I am getting better in my procedure....er maybe... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There are a few times when 109K seems to perform randomly.

Start mission with initial FMB waypoint at 50km/hr at 50 meters altitude. Pause as soon as you are in cockpit, set digital clock to 0min 0sec....I think I can improve this....smooth level flight until ready to pull up into test and reset clock then--I guess like real test pilots did.

...adjust view to comfort, then unpause and goto 110% throttle and boost and maintain 250km/hr climb with gentle bank corrections to stay on heading of 270. No CEM and no engine overheat. Default weapons and 100% fuel. Is there a standardized way to do FB testing agreed to by all? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Below are rates of climb (meters/second) at the given altitude.

La~7

0500.... 26
1500.... 24
2500.... 21
3500.... 18
4500.... 15
5500.... 12
6500.... 10

Bf109K4

0500.... 23
1500.... 25
2500.... 25
3500.... 25
4500.... 24
5500.... 22
6500.... 18


-------------------------------------------------------

Below is basic data from which above rates were calculated.

Alt(meters)...Time(min:sec)...Times(sec) from previous thousand alt.


La~7 -- 3 tests

1000... 0:38 / 0:39 / 0:39..... 38 / 39 / 39 <--La beat 109
2000... 1:21 / 1:20 / 1:21..... 43 / 41 / 42
3000... 2:07 / 2:09 / 2:06..... 46 / 44 / 45
4000... 3:06 / 3:05 / 3:03..... 59 / 56 / 57
5000... 4:14 / 4:12 / 4:14..... 68 / 67 / 71
6000... 5:39 / 5:40 / 5:40..... 85 / 88 / 86
7000... 7:22 / 7:25 / 7:21..... 103 / 105 / 101

----------

Bf109K4 -- 3 tests

1000... 0:44 / 0:45 / 0:44..... 44 / 45 / 44
2000... 1:24 / 1:25 / 1:24..... 40 / 40 / 40 <--109 beat La
3000... 2:05 / 2:04 / 2:05..... 41 / 39 / 41
4000... 2:45 / 2:44 / 2:46..... 40 / 40 / 41
5000... 3:28 / 3:25 / 3:27..... 43 / 41 / 41
6000... 4:13 / 4:11 / 4:10..... 45 / 46 / 43
7000... 5:05 / 5:08 / 5:08..... 52 / 57 / 58


Divide 1000 meters by 1000 meter interval time to get average climb rate at the average altitude (500 meters between the thousand levels)...assuming climbrate is linearly dependent on altitude over a 1000 meter interval.

EXAMPLE:: One data point for Bf109K4 is 5:05 to 7000m, which is 52 seconds later than time to 6000m (4:13). Assume average climbrate of 1000m/52s or 19m/s at the 6500m level.


Below is the FMB mission used (1 player plane only, choose La~7 or 109K)


[MAIN]
MAP Kursk/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 1
CloudHeight 1500.0
player g0100
army 2
playerNum 0
[Wing]
g0100
[g0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.BF_109K4
Fuel 100
weapons default
[g0100_Way]
NORMFLY 180000.05 90000.15 50.00 250.00
NORMFLY 9751.25 90000.29 50.00 250.00
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

-------------------------------

However, about 1 in 6 mission loads (estimate) my 109K seems crippled even with 110% and boost. I got a climb table with *this*... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

1000.... 1:28.... 88 (sec)
2000.... 2:49.... 81
3000.... 4:15.... 86
4000.... 5:38.... 83
5000.... 7:21.... 98

Randomly Crippled 109K Climbrate (m/s) at given alt (m).

0500.... 11
1500.... 12
2500.... 12
3500.... 12
4500.... 10

==================================================



Another test yielded a singular bizzare result for 109K

1000.... 0:50.... 50 (sec)
2000.... 1:37.... 47
3000.... 2:25.... 48
4000.... 3:10.... 45
5000.... 3:56.... 46
6000.... 4:48.... 52
7000.... 5:56.... 68

Single Semi~Crippled 109K Climbrate (m/s) at given alt (m)

0500.... 20
1500.... 21
2500.... 21
3500.... 22
4500.... 22
5500.... 19
6500.... 15
------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted on 11/01/03 07:47PM (server time: GMT 0)

Okay, I am getting better in my procedure....er maybe... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There are a few times when 109K seems to perform randomly.

Start mission with initial FMB waypoint at 50km/hr at 50 meters altitude. Pause as soon as you are in cockpit, set digital clock to 0min 0sec....I think I can improve this....smooth level flight until ready to pull up into test and reset clock then--I guess like real test pilots did.

...adjust view to comfort, then unpause and goto 110% throttle and boost and maintain 250km/hr climb with gentle bank corrections to stay on heading of 270. No CEM and no engine overheat. Default weapons and 100% fuel. Is there a standardized way to do FB testing agreed to by all? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Below are rates of climb (meters/second) at the given altitude.

La~7

0500.... 26
1500.... 24
2500.... 21
3500.... 18
4500.... 15
5500.... 12
6500.... 10

Bf109K4

0500.... 23
1500.... 25
2500.... 25
3500.... 25
4500.... 24
5500.... 22
6500.... 18


-------------------------------------------------------

Below is basic data from which above rates were calculated.

Alt(meters)...Time(min:sec)...Times(sec) from previous thousand alt.


La~7 -- 3 tests

1000... 0:38 / 0:39 / 0:39..... 38 / 39 / 39 <--La beat 109
2000... 1:21 / 1:20 / 1:21..... 43 / 41 / 42
3000... 2:07 / 2:09 / 2:06..... 46 / 44 / 45
4000... 3:06 / 3:05 / 3:03..... 59 / 56 / 57
5000... 4:14 / 4:12 / 4:14..... 68 / 67 / 71
6000... 5:39 / 5:40 / 5:40..... 85 / 88 / 86
7000... 7:22 / 7:25 / 7:21..... 103 / 105 / 101

----------

Bf109K4 -- 3 tests

1000... 0:44 / 0:45 / 0:44..... 44 / 45 / 44
2000... 1:24 / 1:25 / 1:24..... 40 / 40 / 40 <--109 beat La
3000... 2:05 / 2:04 / 2:05..... 41 / 39 / 41
4000... 2:45 / 2:44 / 2:46..... 40 / 40 / 41
5000... 3:28 / 3:25 / 3:27..... 43 / 41 / 41
6000... 4:13 / 4:11 / 4:10..... 45 / 46 / 43
7000... 5:05 / 5:08 / 5:08..... 52 / 57 / 58


Divide 1000 meters by 1000 meter interval time to get average climb rate at the average altitude (500 meters between the thousand levels)...assuming climbrate is linearly dependent on altitude over a 1000 meter interval.

EXAMPLE:: One data point for Bf109K4 is 5:05 to 7000m, which is 52 seconds later than time to 6000m (4:13). Assume average climbrate of 1000m/52s or 19m/s at the 6500m level.


Below is the FMB mission used (1 player plane only, choose La~7 or 109K)


[MAIN]
MAP Kursk/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 1
CloudHeight 1500.0
player g0100
army 2
playerNum 0
[Wing]
g0100
[g0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.BF_109K4
Fuel 100
weapons default
[g0100_Way]
NORMFLY 180000.05 90000.15 50.00 250.00
NORMFLY 9751.25 90000.29 50.00 250.00
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

-------------------------------

However, about 1 in 6 mission loads (estimate) my 109K seems crippled even with 110% and boost. I got a climb table with *this*... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

1000.... 1:28.... 88 (sec)
2000.... 2:49.... 81
3000.... 4:15.... 86
4000.... 5:38.... 83
5000.... 7:21.... 98

Randomly Crippled 109K Climbrate (m/s) at given alt (m).

0500.... 11
1500.... 12
2500.... 12
3500.... 12
4500.... 10

==================================================



Another test yielded a singular bizzare result for 109K

1000.... 0:50.... 50 (sec)
2000.... 1:37.... 47
3000.... 2:25.... 48
4000.... 3:10.... 45
5000.... 3:56.... 46
6000.... 4:48.... 52
7000.... 5:56.... 68

Single Semi~Crippled 109K Climbrate (m/s) at given alt (m)

0500.... 20
1500.... 21
2500.... 21
3500.... 22
4500.... 22
5500.... 19
6500.... 15
------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:20 PM
hmm can you do the same for G-10 and G-14?

On my experience I can climb LA-7 steadily 30m/s up to 2km.. rocket climber, hopefully it gets neutered in the patch..


____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:30 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:

- Is there a standardized way
- to do FB testing agreed to by all?


It doesn't seem that there really is LEXX. I think this is one of the main reasons there is a lot of misunderstandings and disagreements.

Is there a standardized database, as well as a standardized test method site somewhere that we don't know about?

One thing that makes something like this difficult is that there are so many new patches with so many different flight models...


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<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 05:48 PM
Vipez-::
-- On my experience I can climb LA-7 steadily 30m/s up to
-- 2km.. rocket climber, hopefully it gets neutered in the
-- patch..

Interestingly, I get close to what is claimed as real without CEM, so I guess its a CEM issue. Maybe Oleg made FB more for the non~CEM simmers.

What was your time to 2km and climb speed and FB settings? I will try this too.

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 08:07 PM
wow good work there LEXX .... good effort

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 09:39 PM
nice data, Lexx
The problem is what to do after you have run away high on a LA7. Even at 6000m you aren't going to turn until you get behind at shooting range, and swooping may work, but if you miss, then you are running away again. I feel pretty safe in a K4, until I try to get a shooting solution other than head-on. Any "aces" out there to comment, and please don't say that after X number of meters up the LA7 is easy meat.

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 10:02 PM
Thanks fellas, I am learning alot more by doing this, and being pushed and it is Good. I don't think I posted this thread twice, here and in Oleg's Recovery Room, and now this is freaking me out, and is difficult to deal with.

Well, with the La~7 100% prop pitch I too got 33 seconds to 1000m, couldn't approach that before without CEM.

robbin75 has the best technique, take off and stay below 50m and reset clock when you reach chosen climb speed and pull up to maintain it.

The bizzare things here are the constant 109K climbrate to 5000m, although that may be hysterically correct I dunno but its weird, and the random crippling depending on mission load is wierd too (but relatively rare)...again both without CEM. Maybe Oleg did model some random performance hits, at least for some planes, and didn't tell anybody. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif La~7 was consistent every time in all the non~CEM tests.

Didn't post this earlier, but another early 109K test I terminated gave 1:30 to 1000m and agrees with the Random Cripple test data above. So this is reproducible, at least on my installation of my "version" of 1.11...btw I have been using 1.11, I never said that did I?

Well, for some reason I got frustrated with CEM long time ago, and have been spending all my time in FMB, became as mean and grouchy as nearmiss (/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ), but now am loving CEM practicing with I~16 its really easy. Stopping the prop with magnetos is fun.


_____________
Oleg please "fix" La~7 CEM rocket climb to 1000m with CEM (but leave non~CEM alone)

Thanx,
~Lexx
~Luftwhiner. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-03-2003, 07:12 PM
I hope the La-7 gets toned down a bit also.

I was wondering does the 190A-9 (5.45 to 5,000m) out-climb the 190D-9 (5.8 to 4,800m) as is indicated in object viewer? I fly the 190A almost exclusively so it is hard for me to compare. Though from my gut feeling it seems the D-9 climbs better. It does say "at combat and climb regime" for A-9 though I am not sure what this means.

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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-03-2003, 07:58 PM
In the Recovery Room, Oleg is saying the ~24m/s La~7 climbs are non~boosted climbs.

kyrule::
-- I was wondering....

Stop whining *I mean* wondering and set up your own climb testing, it takes some time to get into the groove, but once you do it gives you insight into your favorite craft you never even dreamed of before. Anyway the data will be your own and you will know it even better when you fly in combat. Actually, having a few university physics/chemistry lab courses helps you with the test pilot mentality. Record everything in pen, no pencils and erasers allowed.

Don't forget, the best combat Aces became test pilots if they had a chance to return to their homeland during Peace. (Soviet pilots after Manchuria, German pilots after Spain, USA pilots after Pacific, etc...) So do what the hottest combat Aces did. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif