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leitmotiv
01-02-2007, 06:06 AM
I am weary of having my concentration constantly broken by completely phony gunfire sound effects. No pilot was able to hear his own guns let alone those of another airplane's over his engine. We all know why the sound effects are maintained---so that lazy players who are not inclined to watch their tails will have a warning they are about to be riddled. Please dump it for the last patch. I am so tired of it I have turned off the sound effects, which, in effect, gives me the effect of engine racket blocking out all other sounds.

Agamemnon22
01-02-2007, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
We all know why the sound effects are maintained---so that lazy players who are not inclined to watch their tails will have a warning they are about to be riddled. Please dump it for the last patch.

No, we don't and it's not. Actually, it's something to do with limitations of how the sound is calculated. The sound from guns other than your own is calculated the same as if you were in external view. It takes additional programming to teach the pc that you're not just outside those guns, you're also inside your aircraft where you shouldn't really be able to hear them. This is not a trivial problem to solve (and not bring a system to its knees), unless you remove ALL sounds from outside your cockpit, which includes situations where your engine is off.
Or, we could just have no sound for guns in external.. which is no good either, because then you wouldn't hear anything in external views.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
01-02-2007, 07:16 PM
I'm pretty sure they could hear their own guns...otherwise innumerable pilots stories would not include hearing the noise of their own machine guns or being hit by a rather large AA shell that just tore a hole in their wing.

Its mentioned so many times by so many combat pilots...hard to ignore.

Mind you, some of that "hearing" is through their seats as the plane would vibrate or shake violently during firing, hits, and so forth. Seeing as we're all firmly planted on our nice, comfortable computer chairs, sitting infront of a flat monitor thats putting something on the screen that is passable for semi-realistic flight I think we can try and put our hyper reality requirements away and focus on an authentic experience in all respects.

Sound can be used, and should be used more, to convey the attitude of the aircraft. Its a powerful medium and one that can be used to convey things that are otherwise difficult or impossible to display.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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ImpStarDuece
01-03-2007, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I am weary of having my concentration constantly broken by completely phony gunfire sound effects. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">No pilot was able to hear his own guns let alone those of another airplane's over his engine.</span> We all know why the sound effects are maintained---so that lazy players who are not inclined to watch their tails will have a warning they are about to be riddled. Please dump it for the last patch. I am so tired of it I have turned off the sound effects, which, in effect, gives me the effect of engine racket blocking out all other sounds.

Got to disagree.

I have read pilot accounts from Spitfire, P-47 and P-38 pilots that mention hearing enemy fire while in combat.

There are even Spitfire accounts from Malta which mention that they could hear the engine noise of 109s lurking in the landing pattern while they were were coming in to land at Luqua.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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hobnail
01-03-2007, 03:12 AM
In fact the distinctive sound of the mk108 earned it the knickname of the "pneumatic jackhammer" amongst Allied airmen, especially those in the bomber crews of the 8th AF.

Hard to work out how this would've come about if you're correct...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Philipscdrw
01-03-2007, 03:25 AM
Anyway, the stuff that the game outputs through the speakers and monitor (while cockpit is on) should be representing what the pilot's brain is telling him about the aircraft and the world. If the pilot can sense when his guns are firing, independently of seeing tracers and knowing that he's pressing the trigger, then we should be able to also. As the sim can't vibrate our chairs (unless you buy the Buttkicker!) it uses the speakers instead. So even if pilots really couldn't audiologically hear their guns, it is still valid for the sim to make gun-firing noises.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWSensei
01-03-2007, 08:38 AM
If you look in the conf.ini file in the sound section you can find attenuation and occulsion settings that can help in tweaking the sounds a bit.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JamesBlonde888
01-03-2007, 10:26 PM
I also disagree on the pilots not hearing their own guns. I have heard many report hearing a clicking or wheezing when they were empty also.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
01-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Thanks, Sensei---I'll try those out. While there are cases of hearing own guns, not frequent, I'll wager, hearing guns of other planes 200 meters away is downright ridiculous, and we all know this is a blooper either due to technical reasons, or a crutch for the players. As for Americans who heard MK108s fired at them, please cite one source, title, author, page to validate this peculiar notion. That really takes the cake. The idea a B-17 crew with four Wrights thundering, ten odd fifties barking, plus target calls, and other ambient noise could hear a 30mm gun, a popgun in terms of artillery, fired even 50 yards away, is a stretch. I was a mile from the Santa Barbara airport when three water-bomber B-17s took off in a tight vee and I was deafened. Nobody could talk.

woofiedog
01-06-2007, 01:51 AM
Quote from Dudley Henriques...

Links:
http://www.migman.com/ref/pilots/Henriques/P51_TO.htm
http://www.migman.com/ref/pilots/Henriques/P51.htm

*At this point, you can stop talking to yourself because you can't hear anything else in the world but that Merlin up front - the exhaust stacks are lined up almost directly with your ears*<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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zaelu
01-06-2007, 07:20 AM
I think that atenuation setting in Conf ini (I cant find an occlusion one) should be server side enforced at least.

Im also tired of hearing my friends saying... "I can hear ratas, whatch out... they are near" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If I frack up... I want to frack up and die like a nub. Also I'm tired of closing on an enemy that is not paying attention just to have him jink before I get into range cause he has an audio radar (and no friends near http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I know I am a nub at fighters but those little thigs makes me even nuber :P .

leitmotiv
01-06-2007, 07:36 AM
Thanks for the eyewitness testimony, woofiedog!

I recall I could barely hear the 17 year old pilot giving orders to me as I, a 17 year old bombardier, lobbed toilet paper rolls out the door of a small private plane in 1969. We were doing an Arclight on the high school our high school was playing for homecoming (and, what the heck, bombed our own school for good measure). I was hanging by a lapbelt, staring at the ground out the open door while the pilot was in a tight bank---the "tail gunner" was feeding me roll after roll, and I launched them in sticks up to SAC standards. Was terrified witless as I contemplated the ground and my simple seat belt. Ah youth! But, anyway, even in that little thing, with its lawn mower engine, we couldn't hear diddles.

I can accept hearing a snarling Merlin, snap-crackle-popping when a Spitfire tears right over my 110's canopy in Shockwave's BOB2---this is the only time you hear other side's equipment in that item, and it scares the blazes out of you. As zaelu wrote above, it's downright ridiculous to give pilots the ears of dogs when it comes to sound discrimination and range of hearing. I turned the sound effects back on just because I could not fly without being able to hear my own engine to monitor its health!

woofiedog
01-06-2007, 07:50 AM
Quote... <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">"I can hear ratas, whatch out... they are near" </span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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zaelu
01-07-2007, 05:21 AM
This is how my Sound section looks like now in conf.ini

[sound]
SoundUse=1
SoundEngine=1
Speakers=4
Placement=0
SoundFlags.reversestereo=0
RadioFlags.Enabled=0
RadioEngine=2
MusicVolume=8
ObjectVolume=14
MusState.takeoff=0
MusState.inflight=0
MusState.crash=0
MusFlags.play=0
MasterVolume=14
Attenuation=7
SoundMode=3
SamplingRate=2
NumChannels=3
SoundExt.occlusions=7
SoundFlags.hardware=1
SoundFlags.streams=1
SoundFlags.duplex=1
SoundExt.acoustics=1
SoundExt.volumefx=1
SoundFlags.voicemgr=0
SoundFlags.static=1
VoiceVolume=3
Channels=2
SoundExt.extrender=0
SoundFlags.bugscorrect=0
SoundSetupId=8
ActivationLevel=0.02
Preemphasis=0.85
RadioLatency=0.5
AGC=1
PTTMode=1
SoundFlags.UseRadioChatter=0
SoundFlags.AutoActivation=0
RadioFlags.PTTMode=1
RadioFlags.PlayClicks=0
ActLevel=0
MicLevel=0
SoundFlags.forceEAX1=0

And I can clearly hear my engine roaring but the others engines start to come to life only at about 100m or so. It's quite nice to make some barrel rolls between a formation of He-111 in a FW-190. In 5.1 audio configuration its quite a nice experience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Shure maybe still not realistical but close.

What I didn't understand yet is why although I choose "Surround" in Sound options it still states "Speakers= 4" in conf.ini..

Anyway... works pritty well, you should try it too.

P.S. I also turned off the translation for radio chat by swithcing of subtitles. Now I have to learn russian a little http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

leitmotiv
01-07-2007, 10:24 AM
Will try this config, thankee much!

TAW_Oilburner
01-07-2007, 12:16 PM
Leitmotiv see this post...I think you have the same problem I and others are having. Basically hearing planes near you is one thing but hearing gunfire a mile away over the sound of a 2000HP radial at full WEP is another.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/1671030225

leitmotiv
01-10-2007, 01:33 AM
Glad to see I am not the only one enjoying preternatural hearing capability. Actually, my gripe is a long-running one with this sim centered around the rattatattat you hear as the AI ranges on you. To me this is just childish. Add to this the extraordinarily distant gunfire sounds we are hearing, and the sim is becoming annoying silly in the sound department. As I noted above, this is not a problem in Shockwave's BOB2, thus, the argument this is an inevitable phenomenon of flight simming doesn't hold up.

GoToAway
01-10-2007, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Glad to see I am not the only one enjoying preternatural hearing capability. Actually, my gripe is a long-running one with this sim centered around the rattatattat you hear as the AI ranges on you. To me this is just childish. Add to this the extraordinarily distant gunfire sounds we are hearing, and the sim is becoming annoying silly in the sound department. As I noted above, this is not a problem in Shockwave's BOB2, thus, the argument this is an inevitable phenomenon of flight simming doesn't hold up. Apples and oranges.

BoB2 uses canned sound effects.
Il-2 does not.

I'm rather surprised that you're commending extremely unrealistic canned effects, though.

TAW_Oilburner
01-10-2007, 04:49 PM
Unless you have this problem, you just don't understand. I can be flying on one end of a map, cockpit closed at 25000ft and here a B-25 START HIS ENGINES on the tarmac, on the other side of the map, miles away. This cannot be correct. I have attenuation set at 1.

leitmotiv
01-10-2007, 05:51 PM
Ha! Canned?! When a Spitfire flies right over my canopy hood in BOB2 and I hear snarling rumbling Merlin, and I do not hear noises from airplanes distant from me or their gunfire, I do not care how the sound effects are created. The overall effect of BOB2's sound beats IL-2's by miles. It is absurd to hear an opponents ranging shots, and it is ridiuculous to hear engine noise from distant aircraft with perfect clarity, but suit yourself. In BOB2 my first tip I have been ambushed is the tinny sound of bullets banging into my airplane, not the sound of guns.

Cajun76
01-11-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I am weary of having my concentration constantly broken by completely phony gunfire sound effects. No pilot was able to hear his own guns let alone those of another airplane's over his engine. We all know why the sound effects are maintained---so that lazy players who are not inclined to watch their tails will have a warning they are about to be riddled. Please dump it for the last patch. I am so tired of it I have turned off the sound effects, which, in effect, gives me the effect of engine racket blocking out all other sounds.






http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=152066

SlipBall asks: Oleg, could you talk a little about the sounds that we will have in Battle of Britain. This is the only area that I am concerned about, or should I say, want to know more about. I know that the other features will be top notch.

Oleg: We will have a very advanced system of sound. Like with IL-2 in the past, we will bring several absolutely new features and patents to the industry again

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">In short, in IL-2 there was the most advanced sound engine, that no one had in the game world. However, the IL-2 series sound quality was very dependant of the sound card quality, and only on the best Creative or professional cards was it possible to get superb life style sound and effects.</span> Unfortunately, now the simple integrated motherboard sound chips are distributed way more often.

In BoB, we will get sounds almost independent of sound cards - of effects, engines, etc. For example, sounds of different engines will be more recognizable on simple cards instead of only high-end sound cards.

It will also be possible to place one of the speakers above the player and get moving sound not only in horizontal directions, but also in vertical as well. This feature of course will be an option for advanced multi-channel sound cards only. I should note that the last listed feature is already working in our new sound engine, so it isn't sci-fi. <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
01-11-2007, 03:20 PM
Well, indeed. The sound system is undeniably advanced, but it ludicrous at the same time.

Feathered_IV
01-11-2007, 04:17 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif The recommended hardware would even make Jefferson Starship sound good.
Leitmotiv, you mention turning off Effects. Is that in the config file or an in-game menu? I wasn't able to find it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
01-11-2007, 06:41 PM
I just used the blunt instrument, Feathered_IV. Went to Hardware Setup and then to Sound Setup and simply turned off the sound! However, I discovered I couldn't fly worth a hang without being able to listen to my engine! Now, when I have the chance, I'll try the changes suggested by zaelu on the first page of this thread!

SeaFireLIV
01-11-2007, 07:01 PM
Um, not to be a party pooper, but does anyone have better proof than woofiedog`s? Sure the guy says he can`t hear anything over his Merlin engines, but is he firing cannons or guns? No. He`s just flying the aircraft. Now if he was also firing gun then said, "I don`t hear anything over the engines!" I would agree this as reasonable proof.

Also Dudley Henriques is not a WWII pilot. He`s never test fired the guns while flying! I am surprised that some of you have not honestly questioned this. It seems some of you saw only what you wanted to see.

I really honestly would like to know IF a pilot heard his own guns over his own engine like the Merlin. If he did or did not surely he would have felt the vibrations which would have carried through.

I agree that you should NOT hear enemy guns over your engines, but I`ve yet to see evidence that a pilot didn`t hear his own guns, not over, but as well as his engine noise.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


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woofiedog
01-11-2007, 09:29 PM
SeaFireLIV... "Um, not to be a party pooper, but does anyone have better proof than woofiedog`s?"

Maybe...

Gary wrote:

# s...@ix.netcom.com wrote:


# #
# # One thing I've always wondered is how soldiers deal with the loudness of
# # gunfire. Do soldiers use ear plugs
#
In the years of my service little was known about hearing losses and
when I fired the guns in the top turret of the B25s I was a crew member
on if there was cotton in the turret ring we would use it but if not we
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">didn't worry about it because the engine noise was above 140 decibels we </span>As a result I had a hearing loss of
about 25%. Believe me you don't miss it till it's gone. Even when the
jets came alone we didn't take any precautions until a lot of us added
to our hearing loss now every precaution is taken to prevent damage.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Cajun76
01-11-2007, 10:05 PM
Interesting article in its own right, end of page 6 (Gunnery) and beginning of 7 relates to the topic at hand.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200310/ai_n9324510/pg_1<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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CUJO_1970
01-11-2007, 10:55 PM
I've read accounts of B-17 aircrew where they describe the sound of an MK-108 firing at them as being like that of a pneumatic hammer.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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woofiedog
01-11-2007, 11:23 PM
Cajun76... Very interesting reading material... and a complete opposite opinion from the person writing in my last posting as far as Gun Noise.
I'm sure that neither was incorrect in their statements... aircraft design and other variables and factors must be wieght in.
Really like the part about his first flight to 40,000ft... he had someone watching over his shoulder! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
01-11-2007, 11:52 PM
As I noted earlier, I saw (and heard) three water-bomber B-17s take off in a tight vee a mile from where I was standing, and everybody was deafened---I would like to see a citation for an account of B-17 crew able to hear a popgun piece of artillery (in the great scheme of things) like the MK108 at even 50 meters range. I could barely hear the pilot sitting cheek-by-jowl with me in a light plane with a tiny engine in 1969.

SeaFireLIV
01-12-2007, 03:33 AM
From cajun76:


Excerpt of P47 WWII pilot:
"We fired in a 10-degree dive at a small island target in the Atlantic Ocean from an altitude of about 400 feet. I watched Carl fire, and I followed him a few minutes later. The unbelievable racket of eight guns firing scared the hell out of me, and I was glad that I had only 20 rounds per gun because I didn't release the trigger until long after I pulled out of the dive! ."


So I`m not convinced that you wouldn`t hear guns of your own aircraft with your engine in battle. It seems logical. While engines are indeed loud and droning, guns are very powerful (even low calibre) and they need to be able to travel through the atmosphere at speed and STILL have power to destroy another speeding aircraft. All that power MUST produce some noise if not equal to the engine then at least audible beneath the engine, but NOT blocked out of a WWII bird.

You see, what I think is happening here is that people`s perception of loud is singular. They`re not comparing the sounds only hearing one and thinking, "nothing could be louder than that!" Yes, that aircraft engine IS loud, but has anyone run the engine with 2, 4 or 8 .50 cal or other type of gun going off from the plane (or next to the plane) at the same time? Perhaps when the 2 are heard side by side the staccato of an aircraft cannon may indeed be more shocking than the drone of a loud engine. As the excerpt above seems to prove.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


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Whirlin_merlin
01-12-2007, 04:53 AM
Personally I like to turn the sound right down or off so I can hear my own vroom noises or rata-tatas that i like to use when playing at being a fighter pilot.