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Top_Gun_1_0_1
07-18-2006, 04:41 PM
I just watched a documentery about it & I'm just wondering why the USAAF didnt bomb the heck out of those German positions???

Or why the russians didnt stablish air superriority over the area???
...maybe the russians wanted to exhaust the german garrison http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Top_Gun_1_0_1
07-18-2006, 04:41 PM
I just watched a documentery about it & I'm just wondering why the USAAF didnt bomb the heck out of those German positions???

Or why the russians didnt stablish air superriority over the area???
...maybe the russians wanted to exhaust the german garrison http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

KaleunFreddie
07-18-2006, 04:49 PM
The western allies were 2 far away or had other priorities, and expected the Russians to help, but Stalin had other ideas which were more politically motivated than military.
He knew that he had the Germans on the run, and why get blamed for 'murdering' the Poles later (Britain, and their buddies, USA ,would now go to war again for attacking the Polish people), WHEN he could just let the Germans do it.

Makes political (murder) sense to me..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

LStarosta
07-18-2006, 04:56 PM
I suggest you read a book called "A Question of Honor" by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud, or "Rising '44" by Norman Davies. The first does a good job of describing the political climate of Poland during WWII and the Western Allies' subsequent betrayal. The second focuses almost exclusively on the Uprising itself and reasons why it failed.

Basically, Stalin wouldn't have it. The USAAF apparently needed to use Soviet airfields to refuel for their return leg. Stalin would only allow bombers used to bomb Germany to refuel, not bombers running humanitarian aid. Many missions were tried by the Polish Air Force abroad, however, due to the need to fly their bombers at extremely low altitude to deliver aid accurately, they suffered severe losses due to FLAK. All in all, I believe only 40% of aid dropped to the Polish insurgents was captured by the Poles. The rest fell into German hands.

Stalin already had a vision of what he wanted to do in Poland after the war, and the Polish Home Army was Polish-Nationalist and therefore a threat to Stalin's communist endeavors in establishing communist Soviet-friendly buffer states to protect from another western invasion. It was most efficient, in Stalin's eyes, (as Freddie mentioned) to let the Germans do the dirty work so that the Western Allies wouldn't have any propaganda ammunition against the USSR after the war.

The Red Army was even pressed to deliver humanitarian aid to the Poles in Warsaw. So they did, but as a spit-in-the-face gesture to the Poles, they didn't attach parachutes to their cargoes. The Soviets basically waited on the East side of the Wisla and let the Germans murder the Poles before crossing and fighting the Germans.

Poles still feel angered and betrayed, and to a big extent, the most "hated" party in the whole 1944 Warsaw Uprising tends to be the Red Army, because everyone expected the Germans to fight the Poles, but not many people at the time expected the Red Army to betray its war aims as an "Allied" power and allow the Home Army (which by the time was recognized internationally as a genuine branch of Polish Armed Forces, and therefore were granted combatant status) to be hopelessly slaughtered by the Germans.

When Polish fighting men and women abroad heard the news of the West's betrayal of Poland at Yalta, many committed suicide.

Waldo.Pepper
07-18-2006, 05:12 PM
The Poles fighting the Germans favoured the Western camp, and had they prevailed/survived as a political force, they would have been an impediment to the establishment of a regime in Poland favourable to the Soviet government in Russia at the time.

I think that explains why the Soviets did not help them. As for the why the Western Allies did not help, they did. The British anyway. The Allied bombing campaign was more than the USAAF - Remember the RAF? (Of the top of my head I don't remember any USAAF/US assistance - but I am sure there was some).

They offered diplomatic and morale support advisors were infiltrated and (the RAF) dropped supplies from the air. Now why didn't they bomb the German positions? Good question.

Possible answers:

1. Poor intelligence as to their exact position. (if you try it you will kill the Polish fighters you are trying to help etc.

2. Not enough planes to do this and keep up the bombing campaign.

3. Lastly - remember that the Soviets were allies, and that there was an agreement that Poland should be in the Soviet sphere. So maybe they, the Poles were abandoned again.

Just another example of why WW2 is so compelling to this day.

berg417448
07-18-2006, 05:32 PM
From http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm

"The Allied Warsaw Airlift between August 4 and September 18, 1944 was conducted by Polish, British, South African, and American pilots flying from Celone and Brindisi, Italy. Only one airdrop, on September 18, by USAAF pilots, departed from Great Britain, and landed, on its way home, on a Russian airfield in Poltava. Until then Russians had not allowed Allied planes supporting the Warsaw Uprising to land and resupply on their airfields or fly over the territories that they occupied. [ DOCUMENTS ]
RAF flights from Italy, conducted without fighters' escort, arrived in Warsaw within six hours at the nightfall. The planes had to descent to an altitude of 500 feet at a speed of no more than 140 miles an hour to release their cargo. Drop off areas were marked by insurgents with torches in the form of a diamond and a 'T'. The largest, high-altitude, daytime airdrop consisting of 110 B-17s protected by P-51s fighters took place on September 18, by the USAAF.

Allied planes dropped a total of 239 tons of supplies in the Warsaw region in the course of 11 missions, with a 45 percent recovery rate by insurgents. An estimated 360 airmen and 34 planes were lost."

WWMaxGunz
07-18-2006, 05:38 PM
When Germany invaded Poland from west, who was it that came from the east?
Poland was then divided between Germany and Russia.
So what you expect from Stalin?
Make his territory grab free when he wanted all of Poland?
What happened at end of war and later?

Sure, be upset that WWIII did not start immediately after WWII.

russ.nl
07-18-2006, 05:48 PM
Russia, sorry Stalin made it seem that they were only days away from Warsaw. By a radio transmission to the resistance of warsaw. They didn't say they were but made it pretty clear.
Stalin never planed to help them and he didn't allow the other allied countries to land on there airfield so they could help.
Stalin wanted to get rid of the Polish resistance before he entered Warsaw. Near the end when there was almost no resistance left he allowed allied planes to drop goods.

carguy_
07-18-2006, 06:10 PM
The first book mentioned by Starosta is more of an overview but it gives a better picture of allied "service" to Polish.Also directly after the war.

Xiolablu3
07-18-2006, 07:16 PM
How did the West (ie UK, US, Canada, France) betray Poland?

The UK and France went to war over Poland in the first place?

Did they betray Poland later? Its not something I know much about..

Von_Rat
07-18-2006, 08:05 PM
the poles may rightfully look at yalta as a betrayl. but honestly, the only way to keep poland from being soviet occupied after the war, was to fight the ussr.

poland would of been a battleground yet again, and how many more millions of both soviets and western allies would of had to die just so poland could be independent.

it was a shame that poland had to endure 54 more years of occupation, but the alternative was ww3 and probaly the use of nuclear weapons, imho would of been even worse.

BfHeFwMe
07-18-2006, 09:14 PM
Remember by 44 Roosevelt was seriously ill, he wasn't anywhere near full capacity. There were those in his administration who had serious far left sympathies shall we say.

Note how quickly the tone changed after his death, and his vice from the opposing party assumed power. Basically there was no real foreign policy twords his end, FDR was famous as being one who refused to write out plans, everything was verbal, thus allowing his cabinet to assume powers they never should have.

As for the Soviets, they have yet to resolve issues with the attack on Japan.

Russian nationalist author Maksim Kalashnikov, described the feelings of Japanese patriots in his 2004 book "The Wrath of Ork": "We should understand the Japanese, who still consider that the Russians betrayed them during World War II. They honestly did not attack us when Hitler's troops were near Moscow, allowing Stalin to redeploy fresh troops from the Far East. And they did not attack us in 1942, when Nazi troops were near the Volga and the Caucasus. Nonetheless, we attacked them in August 1945, we captured their islands and now, having devastated our own land, we are unwilling to return land which is not ours. So what kind of allies can we look like after all that?"

Article here (http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/05/9261d82c-98f5-40ae-938a-eb14fa2cea14.html)

Xiolablu3
07-19-2006, 02:21 AM
I understand that the Russians failed to help the uprising at the end of the war, but I am doubtful as to how much the Western Allies could actually have helped.

The only real way they could have done anything was with air power, because they simply hadnt got 'through' Germany to Poland yet, maybe a massive risky parachute drop, putting them between the Germans and the Russians, but that sounds very dangerous. But just how do they coordinate their air power? Just send a few bombers, fly over Germany (easier said than done) and drop their bombs when they see some Germans>?, it doesnt work like that as we all know.

Had Poland been on the Western side of Gemany, there is no doubt the Western Alles would have done everything in their power to help the resistance groups, just as they did in France, Holland, Norway etc.

It was really Russia's responsibility to help out the countries on her side of Germany (the allies had enough problems bombing Germany, never mind overflying it and getting to Poland)

I understand some people in Poland may think that the Western Allies could have done more, but when you think about it, don't you guys think they did quite a lot for Poland? The whole war was started IN AID of Poland, therefore Britain and France were basically saying, 'We are prepared to take death and casualties to help our Ally in distress'. The aim was to Liberate Poland, but unfortunatley things didnt go to plan, as we all know.

I know little about this subject, so please bear with me..if there are some facts I am missing.

WOLFMondo
07-19-2006, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Top_Gun_1_0_1:
I just watched a documentery about it & I'm just wondering why the USAAF didnt bomb the heck out of those German positions???

Or why the russians didnt stablish air superriority over the area???
...maybe the russians wanted to exhaust the german garrison http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LStarosta explains it well. Winston Churchill also wrote about it extensivly in his 'Second World War' books.

The western allies didn't so much betray poland but were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Pressing the Poland issue could have led to a conflict between the USSR and the Western allies.

Don't think it wasn't a priority either, at least Winston Churchill and the cabinet were dismayed at this as Poland was the reason the UK went to war and at the end of the day all that happened is tyrants were swapped over which was a bitter disappointment to Churchill.

Another fact is that the allies agreed spheres of influence, like the UK got Greece, where it kickd the communists out and the USSR didn't lift a finger to help the commies. But on the other hand, the USSR was already in Poland so got the majority influence there despite the British supporting the real polish goverment in exile, which on return with full British backing was arrested by the USSR for espionage amongst other things. British pressure helped sort this out but by then the damage was done and even a legit government was impossible as the USSR had installed there men already.

Reading Churchills book really explains this very well and all the problems surrounding it.