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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:29 PM
THIS IS A SIMULATION NOW, NOT A GAME!

IT IS FALSE ADVERTISEMENT TO SAY THIS IS ONLY A GAME!

IT IS A SIMULATION, PLEASE ADVERTISE IT AS SUCH!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




A very happy customer! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Thanks Oleg & co. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:29 PM
THIS IS A SIMULATION NOW, NOT A GAME!

IT IS FALSE ADVERTISEMENT TO SAY THIS IS ONLY A GAME!

IT IS A SIMULATION, PLEASE ADVERTISE IT AS SUCH!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




A very happy customer! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Thanks Oleg & co. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:30 PM
It's a video game. Sorry to disappoint you.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:32 PM
Positive input?? Are you sure your in the right forum?

just kidding Freddy, nice change of pace....peace

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:01 PM
And the difference is.... what??

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:12 PM
It's a floor wax, not a dessert topping.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:13 PM
Well, at the end of day it is a video game. Aircraft simulators can be complete, or be motionless and/or without outside visuals.

The difference being that when in a true simulator you are in a setting where controls and gauges are located in their proper positions, thus you are in some sort of proper cockpit layout. While it could still be argued that your chair at home, plus keyboard, joystick and monitor fulfill this role (and would be considered a simulator only a few decades ago); in today's setting it does not.



Message Edited on 09/05/0306:20PM by ISU-152

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:15 PM
it's a gamulation- is everybody happy now?

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:18 PM
To be or not to be, that is the question.



When I see all you young men in here I think to myself what wouldn't I give to be 20 years younger...and a woman.
-Admiral Benson

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:19 PM
It's PARKAY!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Who cares...call it what you want.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/p47atm.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:33 PM
Sim gaming.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:38 PM
Black_Rattler wrote:
- Sim gaming.
-
The ttle of the new Sims pack no doubt. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


-----
In memory of 'The Few'
<img src=http://www.lima1.co.uk/Sharkey/spitfire.jpg>
The Tangmere Pilots - http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/
Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:07 PM
I want a pickle...bread n butter.



Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:10 PM
game. it is a game. A GAME!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:14 PM
game.

Your Post Could Not Be Completed Because:

Board is busy currently unable to post.

Please make any needed corrections and try again.

Fish itchy

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:34 PM
Don't abase yourself that easily.

Everydody(who don't enjoy sim) thinks we are nerd whether you say it's just a game or not.

Do you think if you tell your friend,
"hey, I know this is just a silly video game thou I spend whole my spare time."
then your friend would think like this?
"Ahh, he is not a nerd. How happy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif "

No. that never happen. You are still a NERD.

Instead I say like this and forget their anxious look.
"Ok. Don't look at me like that. yes, I'm a nerd. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You may not understand but this is VERY important and meaningful, at least to me or to our squad members. Now would you sit on your sofa and watch your favorite football game?"

At least some of them understood. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


BuzzU wrote:
- It's a video game. Sorry to disappoint you.
-
- 25th_Buzz

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:39 PM
I know who did it, if you want it.

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/airplane1.3.jpg"


Ladies & gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. Thankyou for choosing to fly Mandarin Airlines. Those passengers sitting on the left-hand side of the aeroplane please make yourselves comfortable. Those sitting on the right... please look to your left!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:42 PM
"Damn it, Jim! I'm a simmer, not a gamer!"

http://www.zrz.tu-berlin.de/zrz/mitarbeiter/drgr4000/forum/deforest/bilder/mccoy1.jpg

-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:43 PM
I AM a nerd... but this is still a game.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:44 PM
No Text

Message Edited on 09/05/0311:45PM by JR1911

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:45 PM
AHHH!!! OK so now it is a
NERDULATION!!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:48 PM
Fastfreddy74 wrote:
- THIS IS A SIMULATION NOW, NOT A GAME!
-
- IT IS FALSE ADVERTISEMENT TO SAY THIS IS ONLY A
- GAME!
-
- IT IS A SIMULATION, PLEASE ADVERTISE IT AS SUCH!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
I believe that Fastfreddy is pleased with his purchase of FB, and this is his way of saying so.

Tsisqua



http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:54 PM
I just think people should relax a bit. I mean dont we all do this to get away from our everyday grind? Blowing crap out the air is the best way I can unwind (next to sex and spliff) and besides, we're never going to fly in WW2 are we? Lets enjoy the game, and not b1tch about flight models week after week /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:10 PM
Initial post is wrong, so my post is wrong also.

Sim is a subset of Game. ('cause it entertains us. anyone play IL-2 to get pain? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif )

So, If it's in the game, it's in the game. <- now I know why this proposition is true. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


But Flight sim is way different genre from other games.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:05 PM
I fly using a computer ! It ain't real i'm tellin ya, it ain't real ........../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/zensamurai/Madbadvlad5.jpg

'Whirlwind Whiner'
The First of the Few

Ex Ungue Leonem - 'By his claws one knows the Lion'
</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:09 PM
Fastfreddy74 wrote:
- THIS IS A SIMULATION NOW, NOT A GAME!
-
- IT IS FALSE ADVERTISEMENT TO SAY THIS IS ONLY A
- GAME!
-
- IT IS A SIMULATION, PLEASE ADVERTISE IT AS SUCH!
-
-
-Yoo! Dude . Youre caps lock is jammed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-

-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-





Message Edited on 09/05/0310:10PM by Fritzkiller

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:23 PM
It's a POS!



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




JG27_Arklight
"Take a look to the sky just before you die, it's the last time you will" -Metallica

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:33 PM
It's a bird.
No, it's a plane.
No wait, looks more like a flying pig!

<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:36 AM
I agree with having a relaxed attitude.



Every aspect of life becomes what u make of it.
There is allways people who disagree with your ideas and filosofy.

Someone who has no interrest in aviation or history will say that this is just a silly game and perhaps laugh at u for being involved in such a awful thing as "playing a game" and that ofcourse tells alot more about him/her than you.
So just ignore these kind of people. Even if u are playing FB just for fun, be glad that u are in the lucky position to do just that"play",especially if u are and adult.( never trust anyone who lacks the ability to play.)

In my line of work I have to come up with as many solutions to a "problem" as possible, to turn and twist it and analyse it from every angle possible, and fast.

Most people who know me even slightly avoids to make negative remarks about anyone or anything in my presence because they know I can analyse their arguments and prove them wrong ( stupidlooking ) by just adding alternative aspects until they agree that they spoke in haste and withdraw their comments.

This means that I seldom have to listen to gossip. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Personally I enjoy all kinds history from early evolution to present day and I must say that my interrest in flight sims really has boosted my knowledge of not only Planes but everything from politics, how the life of apilot was and all aspects of life from ththose periods. The whole tecnical evolution.( years of studies that began bcause of flightsims?, thats pretty cool)

I would go as far as to say that a historian that debates or teaches any aspect of war aviation who hasnt flown or simulated aircombat (as far as possible) lacks a great instrument for understanding.



Try experimentally putting a complete flightsim noob behind the controlls in your "game" and let him try his first dogfight.( allready airborne)

My first guess is that he will spiral to the ground or get shot down even in easy settings. (I make small experiments with visitors willing to try.) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

So u have to learn to be able to fly? yes its a simulation of real flight.

So even a "game" flyer can get insights in real aircombat and " simulate events that could have happened in RL, especially online where "real" people make "real" mistakes.


U have to know not only your plane but u'r opponents also.
U have to know about tactics , engineoverheat and deflection shooting, navigation and hundreds of other things that real pilots also had to know. All this together makes it more than just a game.( although gaming is fun ) U have to have actual knowledge to master it.= U cant be completly gone in the head if u are flightsimming. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and thats a comforting thought.



Everybody has their own reason for doing things and shouldnt have to or feel they have to justify a "hobby".
If u feel that u do, u have the wrong kind of friends ( get rid of them), or just think about why it is good for u.


So use it as u will, as "game" or "simulation"tool. The only thing that matters is what "U" get from it.


The only time I have had slight difficulties to justify my flight sim hobby was when I met my wife, who had no interrest in " hobbies" whatsoever, so I got her one and tought her the highlights of of "Hobbying" and she seems happy and even found hobbying friends too.

( Now she feels she have to justyfy her hobby to other "Nonhobbyers" ) ( LoL) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:21 AM
ob_swe

I'll give you one small example of why I can't call FB a true sim. There are many though.

Startup and take off. Do you know any plane that starts on the runway? Do you know a plane that all you have to do is hit one key/button, and your ready for take off?

A simulation should be simulating something. It should be as real as you can get on a computer. Could anybody after flying FB only. Get in a P-39, and start/takeoff? I don't think so.

FB is a great game, but it's too far from a true simulation to call it a sim. Just because it's more realistic than another game, doesn't qualify it to be a sim.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg



Message Edited on 09/05/0305:23PM by BuzzU

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:38 AM
It's pc entertainment!!

Just think if pc's had been around in 1939, Adolf and Joseph could have bought this Sim/Game/Entertainment at their local store and fought it out online and avoided all that bloodshed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Not to mention people involved in the other theatres of operations.

The above means no disrespect to the brave men and women regardless of side who were actually involved in the REAL conflict that we are now enjoying as ENTERTAINMENT in the comfort of our own homes.

All things considered, don't you think the "Sim/Game, Game/Sim" argument is just a bit trivial?

Thank you. I am now fully prepared for the flames to consume me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Toodle pip

<center>http://www.poprivet.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Forums/Sig/ALTERNATE2.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:56 AM
Sure it's trivial, but I didn't bring it up../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:43 AM
ob_swe wrote:
- I agree with having a relaxed attitude.
-
-
-
- Every aspect of life becomes what u make of it.
- There is allways people who disagree with your ideas
- and filosofy.
-
- Someone who has no interrest in aviation or history
- will say that this is just a silly game and perhaps
- laugh at u for being involved in such a awful thing
- as "playing a game" and that ofcourse tells alot
- more about him/her than you.
- So just ignore these kind of people. Even if u are
- playing FB just for fun, be glad that u are in the
- lucky position to do just that"play",especially if u
- are and adult.( never trust anyone who lacks the
- ability to play.)
-
- In my line of work I have to come up with as many
- solutions to a "problem" as possible, to turn and
- twist it and analyse it from every angle possible,
- and fast.
-
- Most people who know me even slightly avoids to make
- negative remarks about anyone or anything in my
- presence because they know I can analyse their
- arguments and prove them wrong ( stupidlooking ) by
- just adding alternative aspects until they agree
- that they spoke in haste and withdraw their
- comments.
-
- This means that I seldom have to listen to gossip.
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-
- Personally I enjoy all kinds history from early
- evolution to present day and I must say that my
- interrest in flight sims really has boosted my
- knowledge of not only Planes but everything from
- politics, how the life of apilot was and all
- aspects of life from ththose periods. The whole
- tecnical evolution.( years of studies that began
- bcause of flightsims?, thats pretty cool)
-
- I would go as far as to say that a historian that
- debates or teaches any aspect of war aviation who
- hasnt flown or simulated aircombat (as far as
- possible) lacks a great instrument for
- understanding.
-
-
-
-
-
- Try experimentally putting a complete flightsim noob
- behind the controlls in your "game" and let him try
- his first dogfight.( allready airborne)
-
- My first guess is that he will spiral to the ground
- or get shot down even in easy settings. (I make
- small experiments with visitors willing to try.)
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- So u have to learn to be able to fly? yes its a
- simulation of real flight.
-
- So even a "game" flyer can get insights in real
- aircombat and " simulate events that could have
- happened in RL, especially online where "real"
- people make "real" mistakes.
-
-
- U have to know not only your plane but u'r opponents
- also.
- U have to know about tactics , engineoverheat and
- deflection shooting, navigation and hundreds of
- other things that real pilots also had to know. All
- this together makes it more than just a game.(
- although gaming is fun ) U have to have actual
- knowledge to master it.= U cant be completly gone in
- the head if u are flightsimming. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and thats a comforting
- thought.
-
-
-
-
- Everybody has their own reason for doing things and
- shouldnt have to or feel they have to justify a
- "hobby".
- If u feel that u do, u have the wrong kind of
- friends ( get rid of them), or just think about why
- it is good for u.
-
-
- So use it as u will, as "game" or "simulation"tool.
- The only thing that matters is what "U" get from it.
-
-
- The only time I have had slight difficulties to
- justify my flight sim hobby was when I met my wife,
- who had no interrest in " hobbies" whatsoever, so I
- got her one and tought her the highlights of of
- "Hobbying" and she seems happy and even found
- hobbying friends too.
-
- ( Now she feels she have to justyfy her hobby to
- other "Nonhobbyers" ) ( LoL)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
wow , deep ......................


Onk Onk.............Hawg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:45 AM
Hawg- wrote:
- ob_swe wrote:
-- I agree with having a relaxed attitude.
--
--
--
-- Every aspect of life becomes what u make of it.
-- There is allways people who disagree with your ideas
-- and filosofy.
--
-- Someone who has no interrest in aviation or history
-- will say that this is just a silly game and perhaps
-- laugh at u for being involved in such a awful thing
-- as "playing a game" and that ofcourse tells alot
-- more about him/her than you.
-- So just ignore these kind of people. Even if u are
-- playing FB just for fun, be glad that u are in the
-- lucky position to do just that"play",especially if u
-- are and adult.( never trust anyone who lacks the
-- ability to play.)
--
-- In my line of work I have to come up with as many
-- solutions to a "problem" as possible, to turn and
-- twist it and analyse it from every angle possible,
-- and fast.
--
-- Most people who know me even slightly avoids to make
-- negative remarks about anyone or anything in my
-- presence because they know I can analyse their
-- arguments and prove them wrong ( stupidlooking ) by
-- just adding alternative aspects until they agree
-- that they spoke in haste and withdraw their
-- comments.
--
-- This means that I seldom have to listen to gossip.
-- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
--
--
-- Personally I enjoy all kinds history from early
-- evolution to present day and I must say that my
-- interrest in flight sims really has boosted my
-- knowledge of not only Planes but everything from
-- politics, how the life of apilot was and all
-- aspects of life from ththose periods. The whole
-- tecnical evolution.( years of studies that began
-- bcause of flightsims?, thats pretty cool)
--
-- I would go as far as to say that a historian that
-- debates or teaches any aspect of war aviation who
-- hasnt flown or simulated aircombat (as far as
-- possible) lacks a great instrument for
-- understanding.
--
--
--
--
--
-- Try experimentally putting a complete flightsim noob
-- behind the controlls in your "game" and let him try
-- his first dogfight.( allready airborne)
--
-- My first guess is that he will spiral to the ground
-- or get shot down even in easy settings. (I make
-- small experiments with visitors willing to try.)
-- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
--
-- So u have to learn to be able to fly? yes its a
-- simulation of real flight.
--
-- So even a "game" flyer can get insights in real
-- aircombat and " simulate events that could have
-- happened in RL, especially online where "real"
-- people make "real" mistakes.
--
--
-- U have to know not only your plane but u'r opponents
-- also.
-- U have to know about tactics , engineoverheat and
-- deflection shooting, navigation and hundreds of
-- other things that real pilots also had to know. All
-- this together makes it more than just a game.(
-- although gaming is fun ) U have to have actual
-- knowledge to master it.= U cant be completly gone in
-- the head if u are flightsimming. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and thats a comforting
-- thought.
--
--
--
--
-- Everybody has their own reason for doing things and
-- shouldnt have to or feel they have to justify a
-- "hobby".
-- If u feel that u do, u have the wrong kind of
-- friends ( get rid of them), or just think about why
-- it is good for u.
--
--
-- So use it as u will, as "game" or "simulation"tool.
-- The only thing that matters is what "U" get from it.
--
--
-- The only time I have had slight difficulties to
-- justify my flight sim hobby was when I met my wife,
-- who had no interrest in " hobbies" whatsoever, so I
-- got her one and tought her the highlights of of
-- "Hobbying" and she seems happy and even found
-- hobbying friends too.
--
-- ( Now she feels she have to justyfy her hobby to
-- other "Nonhobbyers" ) ( LoL)
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
- wow , deep ......................
-
-
-
- Onk Onk.............Hawg

very deep

Hawg-dawg ,the genuine Dawg
Fat Boys and.... Props Forever....Baby

Tully__
09-06-2003, 05:56 AM
It's as close to a simulation as the developers can make within the limits of the PC platform, but it's still basically and entertainment rather than a training/teaching/research tool.

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Salut
Tully

adlabs6
09-06-2003, 06:44 AM
Tully__ wrote:
- but it's
- still basically and entertainment rather than a
- training/teaching/research tool.

Good point. I wouldn't bother with FB if it wasn't fun. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:52 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- ob_swe
-
- I'll give you one small example of why I can't
- call FB a true sim. There are many though.
-
-
- Startup and take off. Do you know any plane that
- starts on the runway? Do you know a plane that all
- you have to do is hit one key/button, and your ready
- for take off?
-
-
- A simulation should be simulating something. It
- should be as real as you can get on a computer.
- Could anybody after flying FB only. Get in a P-39,
- and start/takeoff? I don't think so.
-
-
- FB is a great game, but it's too far from a true
- simulation to call it a sim. Just because it's more
- realistic than another game, doesn't qualify it to
- be a sim.
-
-
- 25th_Buzz
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I agree to most Buzz.

My first flying experience was as a passanger in a cessna. the pilot let me feel the controlls for a while at safe altitude, so I did som turns and the were quite clean... so the pilot asked if I had done this before,- no only in flightsims I replyed.
Then he started point out instruments asking what they were and did. I answered, and those I didnt know he explained. Take offs and landings Is easy under normal conditions. Actually I havent done it by my self but flown in on final and felt the controlls ( dual) all the way.

Afterwards we discussed sims and the pilot said that even playfull simming prepares u for real flight better than books.( faster learningcurve )
- - - - - - - - - -

A p39 u say....I wouldnt try that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .No u cant fly a real plane after just flying fb, but i do belive that if u learn physics of flight and instruments and all flight maneuvers and simple navigation and general terms in a sim
u are alot better prepared for Real flight than not becaus u will have some idea how a plane behaves in the air.
that is what sims are for.( and why not also for playing)

Yes its not advanced as Real military flightsims but I've heard that there is some playing with those as well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

FB is "simulating" the airwar over the east perhaps not fully in detail but people can get the picture of aircombat, bombingraids and how easily death could occur.

and u can simulate combat tactics and review results afterwards. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:56 AM
Hmmm "Deep" U say.... do U mean overmodeled? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:56 AM
Hopefully I can convey why I believe that "PC games/sims can prepare you for real flight" is a fairly dangerous attitude to take, despite being one that is very prevalent in online flight sim communities.

There is one thing, and one thing only, that is going to increase a person's skill at flying for real. This is time in a real aircraft. Even very experienced pilots, after not having flown for some time, need to re-acclimate themselves to the aircraft and flying it. In many cases, it only takes a matter of weeks of being on the ground in order to impact a pilot's proficiency. I have experienced this myself, when I stopped flying for over two years due to financial constraints. When I returned, had found that several things which had become second nature to me had "left," two of which were my refinement of altitude control and proficiency with landing the aircraft. I was able to maintain altitude and land the plane, but not to the degree of accuracy I had once been able to boast. This will return to me in time, but not until I have logged enough time to gain back what I have lost due to nonactivity.

Games, or sims (whatever you want to call them) did nothing to help me with this. I believe this is because a PC "simulation" is not capable of capturing the feelings or sensations of actual flight. Even with a force feedback stick, rudder pedals, and throttle, the represntation is crude at best. No matter how sophisticated the flight model, it is grossly insufficient to acclimatize an individual to flying a real aircraft.

It ignores phisiological issues which are a huge part of the flying experience. The scanning of instruments, visual references, fatigue, your vestibular sense, and other aspects are huge parts of real flight, and these are things that pilots have to deal with from the moment they enter the aircraft for their first lesson. Games do not model these things, and could not model them, without sophisticated equipment the cost of which would be prohibitive to almost any average user.

If you've ever returned from a flight and realized how dead tired you are from just two hours of flying (again, usually this is exacerbated by not having flown in awhile) you know what I'm talking about. That goes double for any flying that involves a great deal of g loading, which will sap your energy very well if you are not used to it.

The games we play also ignore the details of aircraft instrumentation aside from the basic appearance. They ignore the aircraft's systems aside from the most basic effects. They ignore checklists. They ignore emergency procedures. Even if you were to do these things yourself, there's nothing to perform a checklist on. "Step 1: Hit the 'I' Key." is about as far as you'd get. I don't need to ground my magnetos before shutting down the engines in IL-2 like I do for real, or any of the 20 or so different things associated with operating the engine during preflight, pre-taxi, and runup even before the plane leaves the ground.

This is why the finer points of "full real," are, in my humble opinion, a joke. If this game encompasses about five percent of the actual flying experience (and it might, in which case it would be considered an excellent sim, which it is) then the argument might be over about half a percent, or one percent, of the experience.

"Putting your hands on the instruments" while the pilot lands the plane is not landing the plane. There's no way to guage the difficulty of landing that aircraft if you're not the one doing the landing. The same goes for anything of which you are not an active participant, or the active participant. I'm not saying landing it would be prohibitively hard, but it isn't much like it is in IL-2. The feeling isn't there, and it can't be duplicated outside of a real aircraft. Many things in real life flying are done with a huge helping of instinct and insight gained from doing it in real life, over and over again.

Therefore, I disagree that 'simming' can significantly prepare a person for real life flying, aside from maybe teaching the aircraft instrumentation appearance and the basic principles of flight. In fact, it hurt me when I was learning in the beginning, because I kept trying to associate what the simulator told me about landing with landing for real, and it was completely wrong. It took months before I was able to master the flare, because the simming had screwed me up and caused me to ignore things like ground effect, which are extremely important. This is only one example.

I have seen CFIs die at the controls of their aircraft for assuming much less than the PC gaming crowd assumes it can do in a real plane just because it can play a game which supposedly "simulates" flying one. And this is why I am a little scared, if not a little disturbed, at the attitude of "playing the game, or 'flying the sim' will prepare me to fly a real plane." Because it simply won't. The only thing I will use a PC sim for is helping out with IFR training, and this is because it allows you to read instrumentation that appears like it does in the real aircraft. The other issues with IFR flight (ignoring your sense of motion and trusting the instruments, for instance) cannot be duplicated in the 'sim' and must be practiced for real.

I apologize for my long winded (first, even!) post, and hope that my experience as a pilot in the "real world" will help you guys understand the connection. I love IL-2:FB and play it religiously, but I see it for what it is: a very well-done game, which approximates the flight of many WWII aircraft very well.

Regards,

MrClark


- I agree to most Buzz.
-
- My first flying experience was as a passanger in a
- cessna. the pilot let me feel the controlls for a
- while at safe altitude, so I did som turns and the
- were quite clean... so the pilot asked if I had done
- this before,- no only in flightsims I replyed.
- Then he started point out instruments asking what
- they were and did. I answered, and those I didnt
- know he explained. Take offs and landings Is easy
- under normal conditions. Actually I havent done it
- by my self but flown in on final and felt the
- controlls ( dual) all the way.
-
- Afterwards we discussed sims and the pilot said that
- even playfull simming prepares u for real flight
- better than books.( faster learningcurve )

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:54 PM
Thnx MrClark for your opinion!

As I said earlier I dont either belive that u can fly a real plane using only a simulation, and I didnt use the word "significantly" when I said that simulation can prepair someone for "real" flight, and I absolutly not meant "fully prepair".

Teaching the aircraft instrumentation appearance and the basic principles of flight ,navigation ,basic maneuvers,
landing pattern, and so on......"is" a preparation , everything in the "flying buissness" that u have had a chance to think about before going to flyingschool is a preparation.


The pilot I spoke to said that some of students who had flown in sims already knew many basic things and could continue to build on that.In contrast many of those who had no contact with flight before had a harder time in beginning.
Also I know that several in my town pilots practice in civil sims.( what they practice I dont know)(IFR maybe)

Also I didnt compair fb aircraft with real ones.
Also I agree that many aspects of realflight cant be experienced in a sim.

When u are at the point that u are flying real planes the best way to be experienced to "real" flying is ofcourse to fly "real" planes.


So really we are agreed that "some" basics can be learned. and even that explaining exatly what u mean in text is difficult. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:39 PM
This thread is overmodelled.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:41 PM
Cold_Gambler wrote:
- it's a gamulation- is everybody happy now?

haha thats great /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

well my name was spelled wrong

Message Edited on 09/06/0307:41AM by ST_Spyke

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:18 PM
It's a bit of both. Anybody remember the old Reeses Peanut Butter Cup adds:

Person 1 "You've gotten you're chocolate in my peanut butter."

Person 2: "No! You've got you're peanut butter on my chocolate!"

Who's cares still tastes good eh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Roy Baty
IV/JG51 M├┬Âlders

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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Message Edited on 09/06/0311:18AM by roybaty