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View Full Version : Counter move to the high yo-yo



rmorgansmith
08-07-2007, 01:43 PM
I was watching the Dogfight show the other night and have seen it a few times before where the F-4 Phantom drivers use the high yo-yo to to avoid overshoot and set up their shot vs. North Vietnamese Migs. What is the counter-move that the Migs should have been using. Maybe some did but we are getting the accounts where they did not and were shot down. I would think they would want to stay aggressive and break into the attacker.

rmorgansmith
08-07-2007, 01:43 PM
I was watching the Dogfight show the other night and have seen it a few times before where the F-4 Phantom drivers use the high yo-yo to to avoid overshoot and set up their shot vs. North Vietnamese Migs. What is the counter-move that the Migs should have been using. Maybe some did but we are getting the accounts where they did not and were shot down. I would think they would want to stay aggressive and break into the attacker.

Blood_Splat
08-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Not sure maybe a hard break to the left or right. Base on altitude I don't think the mig could dive.

ploughman
08-07-2007, 02:53 PM
Which Mig?

HuninMunin
08-07-2007, 02:58 PM
17.
And the answer is hard break into the appropriate direction.
If you fight an enemy THAT superior in energy you just can't do anything then turn as hard and fast until you can atleast make a snapshot.

rmorgansmith
08-07-2007, 03:00 PM
Both the 17 and the 21, in the one instance I saw just the other night the Mig-21 was on the deck running and the pilot said he yo-yo ed and was at approx. 10,00 feet at the top, you would think he would risk losing sight of the bogey but then again the backseater was there, one advantage over the single seat Mig.

Airmail109
08-07-2007, 03:02 PM
On a dogfight server if they have more energy, go into a vertical dive and pull out before your break up or at the last minute.

They will not want to follow you or they will lose track of you

rmorgansmith
08-07-2007, 03:11 PM
I was talking about the "book" move in real life to counter the high yo-yo. What was interesting about that last show was it was about Vietnam gun kills by Phantoms after they got the gun pod. Some of the earlier shows were earlier fights where the Phantoms only had missles, I would think if you were the Mig driver vs. a missle only F-4 and he was high yo-ing on you you would want to keep turning and point your nose at the attacker since he had no head on weapon that was very effective.

ImMoreBetter
08-07-2007, 03:16 PM
Wouldn't a reversed downward spiral put you under their nose? They wouldn't be able to see you.

horseback
08-07-2007, 04:34 PM
One of the big problems the early Phantom drivers had was the amount of work you had to do to fire your missiles -- I believe that there were three seperate procedures that had to be completed, requiring a good many switch settings and combinations, before you could get your missile to go off the rail.

The original concept for the all-missile fighter was to take out your target from beyond visual range, which would have allowed the Phantom crew the leisure time needed to perform these operations. Unfortunately, the rules of engagement over North Vietnam demanded that the crew eyeball and identify a bogey before killing it, creating all kinds of problems and lost opportunities for USAF and USN fighter crews.

If you want to go deeply into the subject, I recommend reading A Scream of Eagles, which is an excellent book on the founding of the Top Gun fighter weapons School. I'd mention the author, but I just can't remember his name right now.

Another good one is 'Boots' Blesse's Check Six, which also says some interesting things about Mustangs and F-86s over Korea.

cheers

horseback

erco415
08-07-2007, 04:51 PM
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ercos-hangar/f8threeinfl.jpg

3.JG51_BigBear
08-07-2007, 05:24 PM
To counter a high speed yo-yo the target fighter must force the attacking fighter to overshoot. A number of sources I've read say that the best way to force this overshoot is for the target fighter to climb and burn airspeed while gaining altitude. The momentum of the attacking fighter will prevent it from being able to follow and the defending fighter should now be behind that attacking fighter.

It all depends on the situation though.

HuninMunin
08-07-2007, 05:45 PM
Just thought of situations like you described I experienced online.
If you are on the recieving end you could do a large ( in diameter ) barrel roll in the direction of his approach (if he's coming from high 8 - you roll left).
Only works if your kite can pull some series height meters on low speed and doesn't stall at 250 km/h.
If you time it right you will force him to bleed a lot of E for a shot and might even end up in an inferior E situation.
If I remember correctly my sig is a screen taken after I've done something like that.

rmorgansmith
08-07-2007, 06:55 PM
You know what would really be cool is some source for North Vietnamese pilot accounts of their training and fights. One impression I get from my TV viewing and reading is that the NV pilots turned and ran quite a bit, and they were probably under close GCI control so their tactical flexibility was limited, I don't mean to disparage their courage it just seems that is the way they were trained. I have read Scream of Eagles many years ago, probably could not find the book in my boxes of stuff but I remember it was very good and informative.

carguy_
08-07-2007, 07:22 PM
I have no idea how things look with jets.With props it`s like this.

Do a quick evasion of his attack and wait till he starts the yoyo.Then, go diving.

There are three variants:

1: atacker looses sight of you

2: atacker does not want to follow you for tactical reasons

3; attacker finishes his yoyo and goes after you.


If the two first fail, you wait until you see him starting his dive towards you.Then,you pull up vertically or horizontally and go headon.Both planes in this moment have a high energy state.

If you scare him,he evades and goes climbing.You win the situation because he already lost a lot of alt because he went after you with excessive speed.You do an Immelmann on top of your zoom and in some cases you might even end up on top of him.

2 more of those and you`re equal on E.


If he does not break, he engages in a classic DF and you win the situation.The rest is up to you.

That works even at low alt.

Doolittle81
08-07-2007, 10:49 PM
The attacker yo-yo's, you yo-yo. Scissoring in the vertical plane.