View Full Version : Breda SAFAT 12.7mm Machine Gun

03-07-2006, 01:58 AM
Christopher Shores in REGIA AERONAUTICA VOL. I, pages 5-6, explains why so many of us are having fits with our Macchis:

Most [Italian] combat aircraft were fitted with the Breda SAFAT machine gun of 12.7mm. calibre as main armament. While the calibre was the same as the highly successful Browning .50in. weapon, there the similarity ended. Muzzle velocity and rate of fire were poor, and the available ammunition [circa 1940] relatively ineffective. Most shells were constructed for impact explosion, to rip fabric off an aircraft. However most modern aircraft of other nations were now increasingly metal-clad, and thereby not nearly so badly affected by such armament. The bulky Breda gun also had to be mounted in the nose of the fighter aircraft at this stage, being too big and heavy for wing mounting in the light Italian machines. This imposed the need for synchronization with the propellor, through the spinning disc of which the gun had to fire. This synchronization further reduced rate of fire, and was also to pose nmany technical problems in action.

03-07-2006, 03:21 AM
Beaut, thanks for the info! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

03-07-2006, 03:53 AM
Well according to this http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html the ROF wasnt all that bad. But its true that synchronization practically led to poor ROF.

Compare: ROF
MG151: 700 rpm
Breda- Safat: 700 rpm
Browning .50 M2:750 - 850 rpm

In 4.03 the Macchi Breda-Safats was hard to hit with because "wobble" or instability, but i find them much easier to hit with in 4.04. The Saetta is one of my fav crates http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Also its one of the best looking planes in the sim.

03-07-2006, 06:35 AM
No problem hitting with the MC200, but I have found that even a long burst into the Hurricane I at about 100m results in very little damage. In fact, my usual "best result" is to cause it to smoke. The MC202 seems to have more potent ammunition but I am not sure yet. The MC200 is my current favorite but the MC202 is luring me away. The J8A in F19 markings is one of my pets!

03-07-2006, 11:11 AM
Ammo was poor... It was not so powerful Vickers 12,7mm x 81SR: 33 - 35,4g projectile and 770-780m/s MV. That resulted in not so stellar muzzle energy of ~10kJ - compared to ~17kJ of .50 AN M2. Btw: the same ammo was used in IJA Ho-103 hmg.

03-07-2006, 05:13 PM
Well, as Wonder Wart Hog said: "IN THAT CASE I'LL USE MY SNOUT!!!!"

03-07-2006, 06:49 PM
I'm not having any trouble downing planes in either the 200 or early 202. I find the ammo effective enough to down scads of I-16s and I can shoot down IL2s like they are going out of style. IL2s are "meat on the table for the so-called poorly armed early Machis. I got four IL2s in one sortie alone ( limited ammo ) flying my trusty MC-200 ).

I also managed to get two LaGG-3-S4s in one sortie, and they are the toughest of the tough due to a flaw with their DM. If you can shoot down a LaGG-3-S4, you can shoot down anything.

leitmotiv, both the MC-200 and the early 202 have the same armament, should get the same results with both.

03-08-2006, 02:37 AM
I conducted some weapons' tests, mortoma, and I think you may be right. Used first version 1941 IL-2, MC200, and first flyable MC202. Set the IL-2s as Rookies so they would for the most part fly straight and level to receive lots of fire. Discovered the MC200 inflicted a surprisingly heavy amount of damage on the IL-2s. Had one pilot bail out when the IL-2 had no apparent damage. Same thing happened with the MC202. The only difference I noticed between the Macchis was that the MC202 possibly caused more damage faster. While the MC200 definitely inflicted a great deal of structural damage, it did not seem to be able to bring down IL-2s except for the bail out case. I find this matter intriguing and I will do some more tests. I have a suspicion the MC200 carries the ineffective high explosive ammunition described by Shores, and the MC202 has armor-piercing or semi-armor-piercing ammunition which would be effective against IL-2s.

03-09-2006, 04:56 AM
I do not think at all that HE ammunition of the Breda Safat was ineffective, as stated by Shores, except when hitting highly armoured spots. HE ammunition can transfer all its energy to the target, while AP ammunition, when hitting a soft spot (eg aluminium revetment) can simply pass through and keep part of its energy.

This "fabric tearing" stuff is not convincing at all to me. If AP ammunition was more effective (an the Italians had it also, of course) why should they keep the HE ammunition?

The problem in IL-2 is that currently the HE ammunition is NOT in the belt of Italian fighters, as stated by the modelers of the Macchi series on an Italian forum.

They found photographic evidence that the HE ammunition was contained in the belt and I think they are submitting that to Oleg.


03-09-2006, 05:12 AM
realy ? wow..
because you see the "typical" HE splash arrows when shooting with arcade mode enabled.