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FA_IKKYO
11-14-2009, 10:56 AM
I know I'm tired of downloading a new mod every few weeks if not days. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

We have AAA 1.2, HSFX and Ultra Pack. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif The main purpose of the AAA UI 1.0 download was to make it user friendly so people wouldn't have to go into their Confi files or main "Mods" folder and turn this off or turn that on. Or you had to download this file and go into you main game folder and paste it in such and such. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

What a real PITA all these mods have become http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif. People spend more time trying to get the bugs worked out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif so they can just go just enjoy the mods without having to become a freaking programer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

That wasn't the purpose of the UI. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif It was created so that any Joe Blow can go download the mod, point it to the main game file and hit "ok" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I tell you this AAA, HSFX and Ultra Pack needs to get their crap together and come out with only one mod pact and stop the bull**** of Mine is better then yours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif because if this continues Mods will no longer be an interest.

It is simply not worth the work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

So what are your thoughts?

Do you think there should only be on combine mod pack and make it user friendly?

Uufflakke
11-14-2009, 11:01 AM
I still install everything manually. If you understand the file structure it isn't that of a hassle.
Probably I will install the UI 1.2.5 for V4.09 when it's released.

On the other hand I won't complain that much about it 'cause it's all for free.

FA_IKKYO
11-14-2009, 11:03 AM
I still install everything manually. If you understand the file structure it isn't that of a hassle.
Probably I will install the UI 1.2.5 for V4.09 when it's released.

This is the point I'm getting at. Not everyone knows the file structure. So it is a hassle

Jaws2002
11-14-2009, 11:04 AM
I got tired of the whole thing months ago. I didn't open Il-2 in over three months.
It was a good run, I've played it and had a lot of fun for many years, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif but I'm ready for something else.

triad773
11-14-2009, 11:05 AM
I think all the sites genuinely do the best what they think will serve the community. I can also understand how some groups like theirs better then the others as they put a buttload of work into it.

I look at it like this:
Yes, I certainly spend more time tinkering then flying, but it all depends on what one wants and if they are willing to put up with reworking an install just to get a more realistic cockpit.

Yeah I have reached a sort of cut off point where I'm just going to sit back and enjoy what I have for a while. It's good enough for me for now, and I have no more time for tinkering and want to spend more time flying some of these great maps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just my two bits.

Metatron_123
11-14-2009, 11:07 AM
Well that is supposedly the plan, the mods are going to be unified...

SeaFireLIV
11-14-2009, 11:10 AM
I got tired of it quite a while ago. But I said at the very beginning that this is why Mods can be bad as well as good. It`s not such a big problem if you play alone, as I do with moddable games like Oblivion and Fallout3. Its not bad when you use AESTHETIC mods like sound mods, but when trying to coordinate all the aircraft affecting Mods with other Players it does become a bit of a nightmare.

At one point I had THREE versions of IL2 for various Mods, now, thankfully I`m back down to one.

Even when you finally think you`ve got it all fixed which can take weeks, you`re never really sure if you`re playing an EQUALLY FAIR game with the other guy.

People also do not seem to know when to stop, changing everything, even stuff that doesn`t need it and might screw with the sim`s integrity. NEWS: Oleg did do some things right.

Personally, I`ve seen this actually make things worse overall for group online players than better. i`ve seen people leave because of it.


Of course, the cat`s out of the bag, so that`s the way it`ll stay.

AndyJWest
11-14-2009, 11:19 AM
I think the optimum number of mod packs is probably zero. I've given up trying to figure out the 'best' mod pack for now. What is needed is a bit more cooperation, but that doesn't seem like happening. If I was running a server right now, I'd use 4.09m unmodded, and avoid all the hassle. Yes, there are some very nice mods about, but the advantages will be outweighed by the disadvantages, at least for online play, until a single standard emerges. If this doesn't happen, then why support mods online at all? It seems to me that none of the mods actually have much effect on core gameplay issues, other than 6DoF, and the last thing the online community needs is fragmentation if we want any further official support, or work from Team Daidlos - there was far too much talk of '4.09m not being worth supporting until it suits us to sort our mods out' from some modders, and I'd be fairly fed up with this if I was part of TD. We can either have high quality patches, or lots of competing mods of varying quality, but we are unlikely to get both.

FA_IKKYO
11-14-2009, 11:24 AM
Good comments. Now if one stops at a certain point in dling the mods then those people will not be able to join certain servers if they run CRT=2 or if the server is running a different verions of mods.

Hell. I heard some people(squads and servers) are just thinking about going with the clean game of 4.09.

It might be a few but I'm starting to see writing on the wall.

M_Gunz
11-14-2009, 11:27 AM
Hard to get tired of something you don't do and can stop doing any time you want.
Why complain?

JG53Frankyboy
11-14-2009, 11:31 AM
isnt that normal with "moded" online games!?

pandoras box is opened - you wanted it, now live with all the consequences........

trumper
11-14-2009, 11:40 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I don't remember anyone forcing anyone to d/l any mods.I think a HUGE thank you should be given to those who have spent hours of their own time to give people the choice.
Each to their own but don't **** off people who are trying.

FA_Retro-Burn
11-14-2009, 11:44 AM
The mod pack should be unified and a CRT=2 level of security needs to be in place in order to feel that everyone is on the same playing field. I would hope that Team Daidolos takes note of these works of art and incorporates these mods into an official version down the road.

Messaschnitzel
11-14-2009, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by trumper:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I don't remember anyone forcing anyone to d/l any mods.I think a HUGE thank you should be given to those who have spent hours of their own time to give people the choice.
Each to their own but don't **** off people who are trying.

+1

Like others here, I've been playing this sim since it first came out, and I for one am very grateful for all of the patches and support over the years that you'd probably not get with other game developers. I'd also thank all of the people who put a lot of time into the custom skins, missions, flying and tactical advice, etc over the years as well. As far as mods are concerned, I really like the new HSFX 4.0 mod with all of the new flyable airplanes, especially the P26 Peashooter, Hs 123, and the Arado 196!


In short: To all who have contributed through their hard work and effort to give new life and interest in this sim, I offer my humble thanks, because without it I probably would have shelved this game a long time ago.

Salute! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
11-14-2009, 12:15 PM
Ikkyo, I agree with you.

Too much is too much.

You should note that you have not seen me very much anymore in the FA campaign. What a hassle, which Zuti is everyone using this week?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I hope that, at least for online, one and only one mod pack becomes the standard, along with the stock game.

If this madness with multiple mod versions continues I'm just gonna go stock. Which sucks really as, other than the SM 79 and the new Avia, the stock game does not compare to the modded one, but I'm tired of multiple installs, CRT troubles, clashing egos in forums, etc...

I hope that the more mature members of the modding community can pull off a true unified mod pack. I know they are trying.

And I hope that Oleg gets SOW to us rather sooner than later, so I can uninstall IL2 and never look back.

GoToAway
11-14-2009, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by FA_IKKYO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I still install everything manually. If you understand the file structure it isn't that of a hassle.
Probably I will install the UI 1.2.5 for V4.09 when it's released.

This is the point I'm getting at. Not everyone knows the file structure. So it is a hassle </div></BLOCKQUOTE>If they can't take the 10-15 minutes required to learn it, I'm not sure that is anyone's problem but their own.

This isn't rocket science. If you know how to use a computer, it should not take much effort to figure out at all, particularly with all of the guides and readmes.

Hawgdog
11-14-2009, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:


At one point I had THREE versions of IL2 for various Mods, now, thankfully I`m back down to one.



Me too, last "free" patch I zero'd all the mods.
No more for me. Hopefully MORE servers will get on board!

ElAurens
11-14-2009, 12:26 PM
GoToAway,

This is just the type of elitist response that drives folks away.

Most of us are not programmers, or IT specialists. We turn on our computers and want to play the sim, not go back to work after a hard day in the real world.

Ease of use is, or should be a primary goal of anyone devising content for, well, anything.

Ever wonder why console gaming is crushing PC gaming in sales worldwide? It sure isn't because of the need to manipulate the file structure just to enjoy the game.

GoToAway
11-14-2009, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
GoToAway,

This is just the type of elitist response that drives folks away.

Most of us are not programmers, or IT specialists. We turn on our computers and want to play the sim, not go back to work after a hard day in the real world. How is that elitist at all? I think the assumption is that a user has some basic skills if they're going to download and install software.

Can you find a file?
Can you open a text file?
Can you navigate a directory structure?

I should certainly hope so, because there are basic skills required to use any operating system on the market.

If you can do those things, then you already know how to install, modify, and maintain mods. All that you need to do is apply them to this specific case, which requires a very minimal amount of reading. All of the mods that I'm aware of lay out their directory structures and basic functionality very clearly in the documentation.

That's hardly an "elitist" attitude.


Ever wonder why console gaming is crushing PC gaming in sales worldwide? It sure isn't because of the need to manipulate the file structure just to enjoy the game. Apples and oranges. You're comparing a third party mod to commercial software.

When somebody buys a PC game, they put it in the drive, the installer starts automatically, and within a few clicks an icon appears on their desktop. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

If you're honestly suggesting that the ability to modify PC software is a bad thing, then I don't know how to respond to that. It's the sole reason that PC games are superior to console games and is something entirely optional that the end user doesn't even have to be aware of let alone involved in.

In terms of basic utility, there is zero difference between PC and console software at this point.

Urufu_Shinjiro
11-14-2009, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by FA_IKKYO:
I tell you this AAA, HSFX and Ultra Pack needs to get their crap together and come out with only one mod pact

They are way ahead of you, all the major players in the mod community see exactly what you see and they are all now working towards a single unified, unbranded, community mod pack.

FA_IKKYO
11-14-2009, 01:36 PM
When somebody buys a PC game, they put it in the drive, the installer starts automatically, and within a few clicks an icon appears on their desktop. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

See how simple and user friendly that was to install the game. Let's hope the mods are the same.

Why can't the mods be that simple


They are way ahead of you, all the major players in the mod community see exactly what you see and they are all now working towards a single unified, unbranded, community mod pack.

I read the forums also. I see the bickering. Maybe this post will bring to parties together and either sh*t or get off the pot.

JG52Uther
11-14-2009, 02:29 PM
Just install UP 1.8 and be done with it.

WTE_Ibis
11-14-2009, 02:30 PM
Exactly- brilliant install.


.

LEBillfish
11-14-2009, 02:48 PM
IMLTHO this is nothing more then a natural progression of growth, in fact one I had discussed numerous times in many threads.

What was once no mod vs. modded, is now which mods to use. Though the UI meant to solve this issue there are a whole lot of modding communities out there that all are doing their own thing, and not all of it quality and not all of it fair or good.............This step was inevitable.............Eventually the varied fractioned groups would for one reason or another be forced to look at combining what each had to offer.

.........and once it is done, and once it is made secure........Then "modded "X"" will be the way most of the community goes.

K2

BillSwagger
11-14-2009, 03:14 PM
If you think its a tiring experience, you should probably learn to do with out some features or mod packs and focus on whats gonna give you ease of use for the time being. I really only use two installs:

UI 1.2 is crt=2 compatible with every server i use online.

I'm finding that i only use the HSFX install for clean 4.09m servers.

Its as complicated as i want to make it. I suppose if i wanted to download every possible pack or combination, i could. I just don't see the point when most of what i play online is already covered by the two installs i'm using. Owning every mod or pack is not important to me.


Using mods from different sites is also as simple as placing them in your mods folder. There are only compatibility issues surrounding the buttons files with new planes, and from what i've seen most of the popular sites work together to make sure that everyone has access to these.

Could it be better?

Sure, its not perfect and this gives a lot more room for growth and progression. I just think people need to chill and be patient, as most modders aren't paid and working on these things takes a bit of time.



Bill

F19_Orheim
11-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:

I hope that the more mature members of the modding community can pull off a true unified mod pack. I know they are trying.

Amen brother

roybaty
11-14-2009, 03:52 PM
If you're tired of figuring out the FREE third party mods don't use them.

Simple answer no?

GoToAway
11-14-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by FA_IKKYO:
See how simple and user friendly that was to install the game. Let's hope the mods are the same.

Why can't the mods be that simple Because they are MODifications of an existing product by third parties. In the case of Il-2, these modifications are exploiting things that were never meant to be known or used by end users.

What some of you don't seem to understand is that the only way for a third party to integrate new content into Il-2 natively is through an engine rewrite (which is impossible without the source.) Il-2 mods are simply hacks tacked on to an existing product through the best means available. Again, Il-2 is NOT open source and the developers actively discouraged user development through encryption. You cannot get around these facts--it's just the way things are.

If you want to use mods, you have to accept that they are going to be "hacky" by their very nature because they're doing things with the software that it was never intended to do. If you're not comfortable with that, don't use them. This is the status quo and is never going to change unless Oleg decides to completely open up Il-2 to development and distribute the source, but the chances of that happening are virtually nil.

Rwulf__68
11-14-2009, 04:49 PM
Taking this thread in a slightly different direction, is there a utility out there that lists all the varying versions with HL to streamline how many servers ye need to try before getting lucky?

The reason I ask is that it's now taking upwards of an hour filtering through each set up & trying to decipher all the abbreviations in the wee header boxes. We simply want to fly!

I had a look on the HL site but it seems dead.

F19_Orheim
11-14-2009, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by roybaty:
If you're tired of figuring out the FREE third party mods don't use them.

Simple answer no?

Simple answer for you maybe but not really relevant if one fly online. You are bound to use modpacks (not mods... there is quite a distinction there) if you are to fly on many servers these days. Quite a few use modpacks as serverware and use CRT2 which means you have to use the same setup.. What the orginal poster asked for was that the major "creators" of the the online modpack, which are 3-4, get together and create ONE standarized Online Modpack so we don't have to have multiple installations. It has nothing to to wether they are free or not, quite a useless comment really.

Now, we might just get to see just that... so ease up on the sarcasm

TS_Sancho
11-14-2009, 05:07 PM
I am tired of the fragmentation in the community. Some of the mods are alright but honestly I'm just as happy with the vannila game. I mainly have them installed to meet the crt=2 on the servers I prefer to fly on, if the mods went away tomorrow I wouldn't lose sleep.

AAA version blah blah, ultrapack U whatever, team daedelus "official" release, its all way to convoluted and its all a big unnecessary hassle.

Now I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that these separate fringe groups are going to collaborate everything into one more homogenous install? Wasn't that what the first AAA unified installer was supposed to be before they fragmentized into a bunch of smaller incompatible groups each screaming theirs was better? Whoopee, another 5 hours of downloading a few more gigabytes of junk for my hard drive and then another few hours figuring out which bit of junk I have to redownload or discard because it wont run on one particular server or another? The only thing I can be sure about with each successive "pack" is that the load times are going to be noticeably longer and the frame rate is going to be less.

Then to top it all off I'm supposed to be grateful for all this because, after all, it was free? All I want to do is fly against other people online in a decently populated server with a reasonable assurance that we are all sharing a level playing field. Is that too much to ask?

All this game modding might be doable in a small group with everyone sharing files but it seems clear that it isn't good for the health of a larger community not to mention the fact that the game is now totally inaccessible to someone new who wants to join hyperlobby.

Someone new is going to be completely put off by finding out the copy of Pacific fighters they just plucked out of the bargain bin is worthless so they bite it and pay for the 1946 version to find out a huge patch is still needed. After all that they come here and get told they still need more but we really cant talk about it so you must google all aircraft arcade on your own and then wade through the nightmare installation that beast has become? If your lucky it ends there, but if your not you find out the server advertising the settings you were interested in doesn't use AAA, they use Ultrapack and you need to start all over.

Have some common sense people...

That's my two cents

Uufflakke
11-14-2009, 05:11 PM
F19_Orheim, in his first post he didn't mention anything about online play.
It was about problems and difficulties with installing mods etc. and it all should be easier.
But sometimes you have to take some efforts to get what you want. No pain no gain.

PF_Coastie
11-14-2009, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Uufflakke:
F19_Orheim, in his first post he didn't mention anything about online play.
It was about problems and difficulties with installing mods etc. and it all should be easier.
But sometimes you have to take some efforts to get what you want. No pain no gain.

DING, DING, DING, give that man a cookie!

Yes, of course the main problem is for the ONLINE community. I believe that is the disconnect in this thread.

Of course mods are great for an offline user. They are a dream come true. But, for online players they have become the spawn of satan himself.

I currently fly 2 online wars which use mods, different mods for each. Therefore I need 3 different installs of IL2 on my PC. One for Ultrapack 1.8, One for UI (flavor of the mnth) and a stock "clean" install in case one of my others gets fubar.

Two weeks ago I was working of a painfully full 80gb hard drive. It was a complete nightmare trying to figure out how to manage my HD space for these montrous installs. First I had to have the DL's, then I need to install them which would increase their size immensly. For instance, UI 1.2 would go from about 1.5gb to near 10gb installed! I had to delete files, back up files onto dvd and re-partition my drive multiple times just to make room. What a freakin nightmare!

Then to top it all off, I couldn't fly an entire mission in one of the wars due to a game freeze bug in the UI1.2 that a handfull of us are experiencing. So, I recently got an SATA 640gb HD and started from scratch. Now I have plenty of room, but it is still a freakin nightmare AND I still can not fly UI1.2 without freezing. So, the server went back to 1.1 and all is fine now.

The jury is still out on the UP 1.8 because I have not had a lot of time to test it. But I do hate the clouds that come with it and the water is all screwed up. Otherwise it seems like a nice package.

I have spent 10 times more time tinkering to TRY to fly than I have actually flying over the last few weeks. It is more like work than fun now.

I hope this all gets straightened out soon for the sake of this awesome online community.

ZappaTime
11-14-2009, 05:59 PM
I think people should be a little bit more bloody grateful for the time and effort the many individuals and groups of modders put into bringing us these mods. Yes, the world isn't perfect and there are some issues with this and that in the multitude of mods out there, but so what, nobody owes it to us to do anything, I personally think its done wonders for il2. I was a firm fan of the UI mod packages, and then HSFX4.0 with its sfs speedy files, and now UP1.8, is even better. Lets hope a totally unified mod package is next, it looks as though everybody, more or less, is moving in that direction. I can't begin to thank all the people that have made these mods possible, 1000's of hours of hard graft have been spent to get them to our PCs, so please stop whining and show some gratitude for your free cake!

PF_Coastie
11-14-2009, 06:49 PM
I could give a crap about 99.9% of the crap mods out there or how long the modder spent on it. Hooray for him that he made something he always wanted in the sim. That is awesome, but there is a good chance that most folks could care less about it.

That said, the .1% of the truly great stuff out there is much needed to keep this game alive. Just an example are some of the maps. Note I said "some". Not all of the maps were done with such care that needs to be taken on something like this. Some were downright rushed and horribly bugged (as many mods are).

I thank those that have taken the amount of time it takes to "do it right". The rest I could care less if their feelings get hurt.

mortoma
11-14-2009, 07:07 PM
It's not a problem with installing anything for most of us. Of course I can install a mod pack. Thr problem is there are more and more mods all the time and they are updated frequently. People get tired of hours of downloading to go from a 1.1 something to a 1.2 or whatever. Then some other people come out with a different mod and if you want that and the 1.2 whatever, then you have to have yet another install on your hard drive of '46 to patch it with the new mod.

Right now, I have five different installs, one unmodified 4.08m, a 4.09m vanilla, a 4.08m patch to UI 1.2 ( and I had only gotten 1.1 a week before ) and an older install of 4.08m with some non-unified mods from about a year ago. I don't even remember what the fifth one is, I'll have to look!!

It's just getting to be too much.

SeaFireLIV
11-14-2009, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
It's not a problem with installing anything for most of us. Of course I can install a mod pack. Thr problem is there are more and more mods all the time and they are updated frequently. People get tired of hours of downloading to go from a 1.1 something to a 1.2 or whatever. Then some other people come out with a different mod and if you want that and the 1.2 whatever, then you have to have yet another install on your hard drive of '46 to patch it with the new mod.

.

That`s exactly it. But we asked for it i guess (well i didn`t ask, but i did acquiesce in the end).

julian265
11-14-2009, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by roybaty:
If you're tired of figuring out the FREE third party mods don't use them.

Simple answer no?

+1

Make suggestions, help out, but don't complain unless someone's purposefully porking something up.

stalkervision
11-14-2009, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by julian265:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roybaty:
If you're tired of figuring out the FREE third party mods don't use them.

Simple answer no?

+1

Make suggestions, help out, but don't complain unless someone's purposefully porking something up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

simple as that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

roybaty
11-14-2009, 09:00 PM
But it's up to the server admins to use them...no? Again, free mods, 3rd parties, you're own decision to use them or not.

If you want to use mods to have a better experience with the current game, it's really up to you to learn a bit, and accept the hassle.



Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roybaty:
If you're tired of figuring out the FREE third party mods don't use them.

Simple answer no?

Simple answer for you maybe but not really relevant if one fly online. You are bound to use modpacks (not mods... there is quite a distinction there) if you are to fly on many servers these days. Quite a few use modpacks as serverware and use CRT2 which means you have to use the same setup.. What the orginal poster asked for was that the major "creators" of the the online modpack, which are 3-4, get together and create ONE standarized Online Modpack so we don't have to have multiple installations. It has nothing to to wether they are free or not, quite a useless comment really.

Now, we might just get to see just that... so ease up on the sarcasm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

roybaty
11-14-2009, 09:03 PM
Then the 3rd parties should work with the original devs, and create payware, which I'm sure no one would b***h and moan about. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Originally posted by mortoma:
It's not a problem with installing anything for most of us. Of course I can install a mod pack. Thr problem is there are more and more mods all the time and they are updated frequently. People get tired of hours of downloading to go from a 1.1 something to a 1.2 or whatever. Then some other people come out with a different mod and if you want that and the 1.2 whatever, then you have to have yet another install on your hard drive of '46 to patch it with the new mod.

Right now, I have five different installs, one unmodified 4.08m, a 4.09m vanilla, a 4.08m patch to UI 1.2 ( and I had only gotten 1.1 a week before ) and an older install of 4.08m with some non-unified mods from about a year ago. I don't even remember what the fifth one is, I'll have to look!!

It's just getting to be too much.

BillSwagger
11-14-2009, 09:38 PM
This might sound harsh, but if you can count to ten, you should have no problem using mods or figuring out what goes where.

Using mods requires that you take a bit more initiative, than turning to a forum to bolster problems.

Most mods sites offer support and will give you basic instructions to get going, however, for the most part its a self serve attitude.
If you find that the mods are too confusing or giving you trouble online, then you should just stop using mods and stick with what you know.

Your lack of understanding or know how is no excuse to bash the mods or their developers. This isn't directed at anyone, just something to consider before you press the "post now" button again.


Actually, hearing this rhetoric on how confusing it is using different mod packs is more agonizing than having to use a switcher or type in another HL path.
That should tell you that its really not that agonizing at all... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bill

PF_Coastie
11-14-2009, 09:54 PM
LOL, well you don't play online much do you? If I did not want to play with mods online, I would have blast in a server with the handful of others that might want to play the same time I do, with the same settings, in the same timeframe of a war, with the same planeset....add nauseum!

The Mods have fragmented the online community to a point where it is nearly impossible to find a server you like with a decent amount of people on it. Even if you want to fly with mods, it is still difficult if the server is using CRT=2 (which they should be).

That is why I have been flying mostly organized wars with specific settings/nights/times with a core group of dedicated pilots. I fly in two of these wars and now it is becoming difficult to fly both of these and I may have to chose just one which I don't want to do because I enjoy them both a lot. They each use different types of mods with MDF.

Many guys are experiencing problems of some sort which makes game play difficult. This game engine is just NOT capable of doing the things some of these mods are asking it to do in a large online server and they are not tested for that. Many are simply tested on the developers machine and by a few close friends and put out to the community without ever being de-bugged or anything.

It is an ever growing problem and I am glad some people are working in the right direction. But I fear it will get much worse before it gets better.

BillSwagger
11-14-2009, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:


I can't say that having one pack wouldn't be beneficial or easier for the community.
I play online exclusively unless i'm working on a mod.

I think fragmentation should be a concern, and maybe if people knew how easy it is to hop from server to server with out issue then their might be less risk of this.
Hopping from one server to the next is still doable. Before, i had to click the switcher, and i could browse from server to server. I can still do that now, with the exception of a having to use a clean 4.09m install in which case i switch the HL path.


I still see the same populated numbers in HL, next to the same servers as i did many months ago when i first began playing online. I really don't think fragmentation is that big of an issue, but what i do see is people gravitating toward what works for them, where other servers might suffer because they aren't using the same pack or CRT standards. The servers that were popular 6 months ago are still popular for that reason.

The solution is for the servers to use similar packs, which many of them do. If you are attempting to get a new server in the line up, you might consider conforming to similar standards until a more universal pack is available.

As for buggy mods, thats something you aren't likely to run into, unless you get them from a shotty source. At AAA, they test and re-test mods before they are considered and implemented in one of their packs as standard.
Mods in and of themselves are inherently buggy, but i find most bugs are user end related and have nothing to do with the actual mod.


Also, sometimes less is more. Improved graphics or effects aren't worth much to me if the game is so bogged down or notoriously long to load, so that its virtually un-playable. Its common sense to kick the stuff you don't absolutely need and keep what you find essential.



Bill

PF_Coastie
11-14-2009, 10:36 PM
I understand you viewpoint Bill. But UI1.2 is riddled with bugs. The bugs are absolutely impossible to track down too. Hell, Monguse can't even figure it out and he had a major hand in developing the UI and it's half his war I am talking about.

I think this game is at its critical mass with some of this stuff and it is just not found until it's put to a real test on a large server with 30-50 people on it.

BillSwagger
11-14-2009, 10:52 PM
what bugs?

i'm not aware of any bugs.
I just know that some mods bog down my older system, and for that reason i keep them off.

Unless you are refering to java script bugs, which the user wouldn't notice, but over many repeated instances could actually effect game performance.

I think this is what HSFX was trying to address by packing their own SFS files.

ElAurens
11-14-2009, 10:54 PM
Agree Coastie.

I have not flown the campaign much of late because it seems there are always major troubles.
The mod packages are now so large that they are overwhelming this 10 year old game engine.

You can't make a Ferrari out of a Lada after all.

The online modpack, whatever from it takes, should be pared down from the current UI 1.2 IMHO. It's just a fact that everything that everyone wants cannot be put in to this old game, and still have a stable package for online use with large numbers of players.

Offline you can get away with much more, but online has serious limitations that simply cannot be ignored. The continuing issues with the MDF mod point this out perfectly.

F19_Orheim
11-15-2009, 01:29 AM
Listen, I am not against the modpacks per se.. these days actually pro them. What I do have a problem with is quality control, installation/distribution issues and the hopefully FORMER issue with many packs meaning that if on wants to fly online, you need a multiple set of modpacks installations. Reason; hassle makes people leave the community or refrain from joining. It is that simple - and yes it has to do with online play.

I'll take the liberty to copy & paste my impressions from another forum:


I too was an avid anti-mod user. The major reason was that "someone" broke the code, which is my view was un-ethical. I have though taken a more pragtmatic stance; it is broken, everybody (most of us anyway) want to use them and crying in the corner does not really help me or anyone. But the situation can be SO much better.
Note: All my points below are written from an onliners point of view, with respect of other opinions.

I was mostly concerned about the cries about cheating online. I saw a LOT of those even before the mods arrived (hey how did that 109 turn inside my spit.. it shouldn't be able to do that...oh yeah and I disregard everything else that may affect turn radius such as speed etc). Well I was afraid the introducion of mods would make it even worse. My conclusion after quite some time with mods: It was not increased, but it is rather the same people that cry about cheating.
Ergo: my concern was uncalled for.

The introduction of modpacks changed quite a lot for me - not only the ease of use. Before people used different mods as they chose - these days we are presented with a "pack" of mods, and by using CRT2 we can be quite assured that those who fly on a certain server are using the same pack (hence same FM;DM etc etc) and nobody gets an advantage.
Ergo: mods alone no good; packs good.

Then there is the issue about FPS problem. The modpacks that are presented to us mostly contains not only new maps, new planes but also new eye candy. This is a problem with those of us who have less powerful rigs, making FPS loss a definate problem. This has to be adressed as I see it in future pack(s): eye candy optional but it shouln't affect CRT2.
Ergo: less or no eye candy in default mods packs. These must be optional.

Then there is the number of packs (which this thread is about as I see it). Without mentioning any, there are a handful of different modpacks circeling the community, making it impossible to only have one installation of il2 if one would like to fly on more than one server. Even though one particular pack is predomiant, others (in some views better) pack are also beeing used as server ware. This has to be adressed and IS beeing adressed. If I am not mistaken the major "players" of pack creating community are fully aware of this and are now working more or less together to create ONE pack online. At last some reasonable and mature people taking lead in this issue.
Ergo: there should be ONE online pack alone in order to prevent the necessity to have mutliple installations. This is beeing adressed. Make note that I am not Pro_any_cartain pack. I just want ONE standardized ONLINE pack PERIOD.

Then there is the specific WoP issue. As WoP servers are my natural choice to fly on due to the quality of the missions, the guys who run them and the guys who fly them, this is of course important to me. I too have noticed that they are not as well visited as before (even though they are FAR from empty) - and they are still the best set of servers around IMO. I think however that the reasons for the lesser numbers (based on personal experiences) is not that they are using mods per se, as stated in previous statements, but rather due to:
1) distribution problems.
The change from UI1.1 to 1.2 was far from problem free. The corrupt files did indeed affect the "irritation" amongst the users, making some wait for a "better" pack.
2) installation issues:
it was not just to press a exe file to update a vanilla pack, it included some manually work to make it work, which scared off some of the less computer literate users.
3) the arrival of 4.09 patch
which 1.2 did not support unfortunately. We have all been wating for an new release from maddox a long time, and not to be able to fly these new airplanes on favourite servers made people leave WoP temporarily to go elsewhere.
Ergo: packs must be up-to-date, quality checked and easy to install.

All in all, of course the mods (or should I say modpacks) have made a stir in the community, but I would say that the benefits (such as MDS and new maps AND 6DOF) overshadows the cons. There are quite many issues ( I have not mentioned the loading time but this is also beeing adressed using SFS format in the future) that has to be solved, but I still have a lot of faith in
a) this community's will to stay standardized (online anyway) and this will and must affect the future online mod pack (singular)
b) the future of il2 and
c) the quality of WoP servers.

PS: I would of course prefer all these new maps, MDS(!!), planes, 6DOF and other nice features in future offical patches from Maddox/Daidalos . I am not really pro mod, I am pro NEW good features.... but I am uncertain if this is possible.

RSS-Martin
11-15-2009, 01:30 AM
Well one odd thing I have noticed is when flying a bomber, and you change positions in the plane and return to the cockpit, it sounds like you are flying with a open canopy which is a bit silly.
Also with the Emily when you land on the water you get external views even though you are on a server which has no externals, had that happen twice where I wondered how that happened?

csThor
11-15-2009, 02:45 AM
In case you haven't noticed - anyone hoping for "one" mod install ignores the history of any kind of user modding and the nature of human beings. There will never be a single centralized mod install - the only time that worked was when the BDG kept tools and code of Rowan's BoB close to its chest. In a situation like ours here all it takes is a minor disagreement between modders and BANG you have another offspring mod site claiming to have the holy grail. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ain't gonna happen, that unity you seek. You let the spirits out of the bottle, now deal with them. I predicted that development as soon as that modding hype got going. And I am still vanilla ... and will remain so.

BillSwagger
11-15-2009, 02:57 AM
WoP servers

My only gripe is that i can play on every other closed pit server including Zeke's and maintain above 40fps on average.

I get on Spits and i see less than 20fps on deck, and barely get better than that as i climb. I have to keep the fight above 20,000ft to have frames above 30fps. This is after i've refined the map textures, and lowered resolutions on some of the cockpits.
Again, not something i had to do before.
I also know i don't have the best computer, but it seems strange that this only really occurs on the Spits v 109 Mods server and no other one.

My only other option is to lower object detail settings which boosts my FPS back up where it normally is, except then p;lane detail suffers so 109s look like Hellcats unless your with in 200 meters. Either way, the quality of the game suffers, and so i end up playing elsewhere.

Manu-6S
11-15-2009, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
I got tired of the whole thing months ago. I didn't open Il-2 in over three months.
It was a good run, I've played it and had a lot of fun for many years, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif but I'm ready for something else.

I fly once a week and only to teach in the OTU. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

By now I've bought Dragon Age, Mass Effect (the old one) and Football Manager 2010... I'm at 50% of Dragon Age... great game; I only wish to have more time.

virgule88
11-15-2009, 03:42 AM
I am torn in two over that.

On one hand, I know that "strength through unity" absolutely deserves all the love it can get.

On the other hand, I know that everyone is different in tastes (what is good and what isn't?), thoughts patterns (mindset), visions (how things should be done) and personality (philosophical approach and stuff?).

So, who get to call the shots? Whom version of the mod pack is the "right" one?

We definitely need MODS developers to concatenate their works for the benefit and convenience of us all but they can't please everyone, right? Therefore the numerous mod packs available which put us right back at square one.

It's a tough call, really. I sure WANT a monolithic mod pack (lets call it that) but we all first must agree in unison. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

---

FlatSpinMan
11-15-2009, 05:52 AM
I like some of the MODS but for now have stopped at UI1.1. I like vpmedia's default map upgrades, the new sounds, gunsights etc.

For my new campaign I made it using stock IL2 just so that people can play it. I know there are some great MOD aditions that would have suited this campaign, but it just gets too complicated.

All the changes to the object list have made making a modded-object-free mission quite hard though. There's 1000 objects to track now, and some are visually identical in the list but turn out to be elevated in-game, etc.

Thump1941
11-15-2009, 06:38 AM
A while back -dec 08, my puter was a intel 2.4, 1G mem, ATI 128MB video, 80 G HD with Win XP for running IL2 1946- 4.08m. My video settings were very modest. Still, I had the occasional problem with "loading Mission", screen freezes, and crashes to desktop.

As of Jan 09 I purchased a Intel Quad core (2.3), 6G mem, ATI 4670-512MB, 650G HD, Win Vista 64 (Very modest setup these days). I was running the video at 4:3 ratio at "excellent" at 1152X864X32, Open GL in game settings. I still was getting accasional crashing to desktop. I changed to DirectX and haven't had any problems what so ever on or offline. I see no difference betweem "OpenGL" and "DirectX" resolution and FPS. BTW, I'm running IL2 on core 3 for fun.

Why all the above garbage? I contend that the game has become too big and complicated for older computers and they are becoming constipated and need to take a dump somewhere in the game.

The installs are simple and straight forward if one sticks to the 4.08m-----AAA1.2 sequence, (with no additional mods). And, one only uses "in game settings". I update "Java" at every opportunity.

JG53Frankyboy
11-15-2009, 07:25 AM
just as a sidenote:
any thinking of making a big "official" mod aka patch is senseles.
at last the so much "desired" new sounds wouldmake this to a russian roulette for Oleg i belive.
as nobody knows if someonehaverights on them - just remember the PacificFighters Grumman debacel....

for the rest, i cant only point out what csThor said , thats. the nature of online modding.

i for myself stopped playing online outside my squad.
after all that years of fun online without any mod, thats ok for me

joeap
11-15-2009, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
In case you haven't noticed - anyone hoping for "one" mod install ignores the history of any kind of user modding and the nature of human beings. There will never be a single centralized mod install - the only time that worked was when the BDG kept tools and code of Rowan's BoB close to its chest. In a situation like ours here all it takes is a minor disagreement between modders and BANG you have another offspring mod site claiming to have the holy grail. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ain't gonna happen, that unity you seek. You let the spirits out of the bottle, now deal with them. I predicted that development as soon as that modding hype got going. And I am still vanilla ... and will remain so.

+1 Exactly so, I myself never wanted the mods, I didn't ***** and scream and attack others like some - who then turned around and started using them - nor do I deny some have put a lot of work into them. Nevertheless I am also vanilla, will remain so, and now it appears my online gaming is over until SOW unless a significant number of servers move to 4.09m official.

Fair enough, was a good run and for those who enjoy Il-2 with the mods have fun! Enjoy the positive consequences and I'm sorry but learn to deal with the negatives.

trumper
11-15-2009, 08:46 AM
I would like to put the alternative point of view over.
IL2/F/B for me was dead.I was going to take it off my H/D as i had had enough.The only time i flew was online when i could with friends and in a squad which in the summer became low priority[real life and other things to do in the daylight].
These mods have bought new life to this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I now fly with my squad who are flying online with other squads with no problems.
Don't put the blame on the modders,if you want to fly online with non modded versions thats fine BUT you will need to get the servers up and running.
<span class="ev_code_RED">It's the lack of servers that's the problem</span> but stop whinging because people want to change and move forward.
If nothing had changed we would still be flying IL2 with 4 planes.
I wonder how many people are flying online in Hyper lobby or elsewhere,i wonder how many of them read this forum.
I just answered this myself,500 people ingame,91 in chat not flying,and thats only in Hyper lobby so how many on this forum moaning ,a HUGE minority i would think.
The answer is to set up the servers to the settings you want to use,don't shoot those that want to have something different.

csThor
11-15-2009, 09:14 AM
Those dismissing the players who have no use for the mods as whiners forget one thing:

Before people whined about aspects of the game and that modding wasn't allowed. Now that the modding genie is out of its bottle people whine that there's no cohesion and a multitude of different installs (and procedures). This is fracturing of community at its finest - that is the fundamental flaw of unsupervised user modding.

And I can - with a smug grin - say, "I told you so." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

MD_Titus
11-15-2009, 09:32 AM
is there really satisfaction to be taken from being on a sinking ship and saying "i told you there was an iceberg"?

ElAurens
11-15-2009, 09:50 AM
IL2 is not a sinking ship, more the old rusty hulk waiting for the scrapper's torch.

That torch is Storm Of War (or what ever name it may be released as), and it cannot get here soon enough.

I still have affection for IL2, I have had too many hours of fun over the past 8 odd years not to. But my squadmates by and large no longer fly the sim, finding a good server gets harder and harder with each passing change in the mod of the week, and it really is time to move on.

Now, where is my Spitfire? I'm ready for a change.

csThor
11-15-2009, 10:01 AM
It's rather the smug satisfaction of an adult who told some kids that touching a flame is a bad idea. Now that the kids have found a match and lit it they touched the flame ... and now they complain that fire burns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

F19_Orheim
11-15-2009, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by csThor:

And I can - with a smug grin - say, "I told you so." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Please continue to stay smug if you please. I prefer to stay optimistic. Team Daidalos' work and the work of senseble people, who will steer this mod creature well into port, will continue to make my Il2 "experience" a long lasted pleasure while you sit in your attic like a grumpy old man beeing a besserwisser and a smart***. have a cup of tea and liven up mate.

PS a I am not complaining.. I have a great time with il2 still. I am pointing out areas that can get better while you seem to wish for something completely different.

Swivet
11-15-2009, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by triad773:
I think all the sites genuinely do the best what they think will serve the community. I can also understand how some groups like theirs better then the others as they put a buttload of work into it.

I look at it like this:
Yes, I certainly spend more time tinkering then flying, but it all depends on what one wants and if they are willing to put up with reworking an install just to get a more realistic cockpit.

Yeah I have reached a sort of cut off point where I'm just going to sit back and enjoy what I have for a while. It's good enough for me for now, and I have no more time for tinkering and want to spend more time flying some of these great maps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just my two bits.


My sentiments exactly Triad. I just wanna play the game and not spend so much time installing the next best thing. I'm just starting to understand the file structure but the sim has alot to offer already, just enjoy it for what it is now, it's as good as it's gonna get IMO...It's already taking 3 minutes to load from when i click the desktop icon to when the games starts, if not longer. I got my flack bursts, sounds, ROF for the Mustang and a ground explosion mod. I'm happy with that. I dont need to be downloading a ton of planes/maps and other junk, if i'm not going to use it, no matter how cool it looks. Make a mod for quicker load times and or buy me a new computer. No chance in hell am i going to purchase a new rig just to run the mods better..I'm completely content with what i have. Now i greatly appreciate all the work AAA, SAS and whomever else has done, but there has to be a limit within the group or an individual. Sometimes "less" is more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

MD_Titus
11-15-2009, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
IL2 is not a sinking ship, more the old rusty hulk waiting for the scrapper's torch.

That torch is Storm Of War (or what ever name it may be released as), and it cannot get here soon enough.

I still have affection for IL2, I have had too many hours of fun over the past 8 odd years not to. But my squadmates by and large no longer fly the sim, finding a good server gets harder and harder with each passing change in the mod of the week, and it really is time to move on.

Now, where is my Spitfire? I'm ready for a change.

fairer analogy i guess.

it's not so much a sinking ship as a flotilla of small life rafts each with a different idea of where the nearest land is. os many mod packs = fractures in a small community being nibbled by RoF and newer games. online numbers appear to have been steadily decreasing, and whilst absolute numbers may be stable, they are forming smaller enclaves cut off from each other.

to take satisfaction from that seems odd is all.

csThor
11-15-2009, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:

And I can - with a smug grin - say, "I told you so." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Please continue to stay smug if you please. I prefer to stay optimistic. Team Daidalos' work and the work of senseble people, who will steer this mod creature well into port, will continue to make my Il2 "experience" a long lasted pleasure while you sit in your attic like a grumpy old man beeing a besserwisser and a smart***. have a cup of tea and liven up mate.

PS a I am not complaining.. I have a great time with il2 still. I am pointing out areas that can get better while you seem to wish for something completely different. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll let you in on a little secret Orheim. I am part of Daidalos. But I think of that work as external development and not as modding. Why? Because DT follows Maddox Games instructions. Because DT doesn't do Frankenplanes or -pits. Because DT doesn't do dirty tricks with 3D Models and Alpha Channels as some other folks ... And ultimately - because DT has approval from Oleg. That is the make or break criteria for me.

F19_Orheim
11-15-2009, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
But my squadmates by and large no longer fly the sim...

Too bad, my squadron is more healthy than ever. Time to wake your's up I'd say http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-15-2009, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
anyone hoping for "one" mod install ignores the history of any kind of user modding and the nature of human beings. There will never be a single centralized mod install - .

This is the absolute truth.

Before IL2 became modded, I had played other games where modding is very heavy. Morrowind is one example. Even today you will be bamboozled by the thousands still available and still being made. It is one of the heaviest modded game and has been modded for 5 years +. It`s a little easier to find some Mod packs, but there will never be one that suits you perfectly unless you make it yourself. The only other way to get the perfect combo is to pick individual mods until you are happy and hope they don`t conflict.

Of course, games like Morrowind and Oblivion are far less frustrating because you don`t have to match Mods with other players Online - and that`s where IL2`s problems are tripled.

There will never be the perfect all in one Mod because everyone is different. A lot of IL2 users are new to the concept and nature of modding and still don`t seem to understand this or are only just beginning to.

At the same time, i`m not saying modding is bad in itself, games like Morrowind and Oblivion have been wonderfully transformed and even IL2 is much better with stuff like sound mods; it`s the Online aspect of Modding is no simple beast, the beast will never stop until you and your party stop and stay with one mod pack you like...

But of course, someone will make another one that some people will insist on going to and others won`t want to cos they`re tired of it.

F19_Orheim
11-15-2009, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by csThor:

I'll let you in on a little secret Orheim. I am part of Daidalos. But I think of that work as external development and not as modding. Why? Because DT follows Maddox Games instructions. Because DT doesn't do Frankenplanes or -pits. Because DT doesn't do dirty tricks with 3D Models and Alpha Channels as some other folks ... And ultimately - because DT has approval from Oleg. That is the make or break criteria for me.

Well good for you and I am more than happy with DT and their(yours too I guess) work. I know some of you guys. Thing is; the situation is like it is and sitting by beeing a besserwisser have never helped anyone. Closing one's eyes wishing that the modders dissappears isnšt really helping anyone.
Now, if you are a DT member then no one is happier than I. That would mean that you still think IL2 is worth putting some time into it still, something that one might not get the impression of by reading some of your comments in this thread. Reading them gives a completely different impression.

I am sure you are impressed though by some modders' work, such as Zuti? Do you wish he never started his MDS work?


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

At the same time, i`m not saying modding is bad in itself, games like Morrowind and Oblivion have been wonderfully transformed and even IL2 is much better with stuff like sound mods; it`s the Online aspect of Modding is no simple beast, the beast will never stop until you and your party stop and stay with one mod pack you like...


True... and by the way; I have learnt the very hard lesson long ago in my life that going into anything with the phrase "never will happen" imprinted in one's brain is a great insurance that it never will happen. That's why I stay optimistic and not a sourpuss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Never is not an option and that has made quite a difference in my life anyway.. More things are dependant on mentality and approach than one might think

sakai2005
11-15-2009, 11:16 AM
After reading thru 4 pages of this thread it seems to me its not the modders who need get on the same page its the servers.

SeaFireLIV
11-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:


True... and by the way; I have learnt the very hard lesson long ago in my life that going into anything with the phrase "never will happen" imprinted in one's brain is a great insurance that it never will happen. That's why I stay optimistic and not a sourpuss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Never is not an option and that has made quite a difference in my life anyway.. More things are dependant on mentality and approach than one might think

I fully agree. It is all a state of mind... except I usually apply it to life, not games. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Orheim
11-15-2009, 11:38 AM
what makes a difference is that it is a sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lol

ElAurens
11-15-2009, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by sakai2005:
After reading thru 4 pages of this thread it seems to me its not the modders who need get on the same page its the servers.

I share this sentiment too, by and large.

Why are so many otherwise good servers still on 4.08? I don't get it. 4.09 is an official upgrade. This is the first time I recall so many servers not going with the newest game version.

It boggles the mind.

doraemil
11-15-2009, 11:47 AM
+9999 to CSthor + Team D.

I also agree with alot of F19's posts.
especially the new changes to IL-2 . . .



Offline and to the OP, that is your deal. You can't complain if there is alot. You control what you install / and put on your machine. And yes not everyone is a IT guru, but XP and 7 are so easy you can install stock games.


And the main reason why console is kicking PC arse in the gaming market is expense. When the PS3 came out, PC's could eclipse it. But if you bought that gamer PC (equivalent to the PS3) at its prime it'd be $2K + US vs $250 for console . . and its good for 5-8 years, the PC is dated in a year.

THe only thing that's keeping PC gaming IS the ability to mod PC games' or to tailor system to your favorite games. And the online handling of PC is so much better than console.

Console can support what? 20 players? (Call of Duty is 16) PC games online can support hundreds!


Online it's just a mess. I have to have at least 3 different IL-2's (b1n n 4.08, 4.09m offical, and then 4.08m )

It's a big mess and the popular servers are all catering to something other than 4.09 official .

There needs to be a little less wild wild west and shooting from your hip, and more control, unification, and better aiming at satisfying what the community wants.

And this means choosing certain aspects of the game to update, that everyone universally agrees on vs aspects they don't.


Like better sounds, or some AI planes flyable, improved AI, people are down with that.

Some like modding mustang FM's, DM mod's or making .50's or removing that insane FW 190 bar ... not everyone can agree on.

Or making a 109 turn like a spit, that's a hot issue . . .



I'm all for modding, provided if its is over looked by the game developer.

That's the problem online and HL caters to mods and vanilla IL-2 users have to bend around them. I feel it should be the other way.

I have noticed little weird glitches that the mods add. The 4.09 / 4.08 stock IL-2 doesn't have those little things.



I think IL-2 should take Pirates of the Burning sea approach (someone else mentioned this before too). They dev team takes really great mods and the community votes on which ones. The Dev team implements those in . . .

Users can design ships / sounds etc . . . and submit them for submission into the game.

But the in the end the game developer ensures that what is added to the game enhances the game along the goals and objectives the game was created to fulfil, and balancing developer / community expectations for the game.

That's why I agree with CS THor and Team D.

trumper
11-15-2009, 11:47 AM
Well it sounds to me like an awful lot of people who don't fly online any more or their squads that don't had given up before the mods or like me were on the verge of it anyway.The mods can't be used as purely as an excuse.
I can say our squad has come to life again,10+ flying last night,i think we will be flying tonight + other squads .
Log in here in a years time and i bet there will still be active people and groups flying both on and off line and the whinging about SOW will be just as bad as the good old days of the "Oleg fix this,Oleg fix that" in IL2.
To be honest it sounds like a change is as good as a rest.
I must say i am puzzled though,800 people in H/Lobby at the moment ,they must have found something that works.

JG52Uther
11-15-2009, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sakai2005:
After reading thru 4 pages of this thread it seems to me its not the modders who need get on the same page its the servers.

I share this sentiment too, by and large.

Why are so many otherwise good servers still on 4.08? I don't get it. 4.09 is an official upgrade. This is the first time I recall so many servers not going with the newest game version.

It boggles the mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You got that right!

TS_Sancho
11-15-2009, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by sakai2005:
After reading thru 4 pages of this thread it seems to me its not the modders who need get on the same page its the servers.

So which mod installation should every server hosting an open game adopt?

After 4 pages it looks to me like there is a fracture in the community that wouldn't exist if there weren't multiple modified game installations incapable of coexisting in a CRT=2 environment.

As far as bringing them all together, as I said earlier that was the sales pitch on the first AAA installer. You can clearly see how far that went and how long it lasted.

csThor has the best commentary on the situation...


In case you haven't noticed - anyone hoping for "one" mod install ignores the history of any kind of user modding and the nature of human beings. There will never be a single centralized mod install - the only time that worked was when the BDG kept tools and code of Rowan's BoB close to its chest. In a situation like ours here all it takes is a minor disagreement between modders and BANG you have another offspring mod site claiming to have the holy grail.

Ain't gonna happen, that unity you seek.

SeaFireLIV
11-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by doraemil:


I have noticed little weird glitches that the mods add. The 4.09 / 4.08 stock IL-2 doesn't have those little things.



.

Same. Now Oleg must`ve seen that problems like this could occur and, the perfectionist that he is, would not brook such bugs and he`s right because the community would crucify him... However, Modders include these bugs and they get very little grief. Of course, the Modders work for free so the User can`t really complain even if the Mod screwed up his game.

Its always been the way with othe Modders in other games too. this is why the PLAYER\user must accept RESPONSIBILITY if he uses mods because there is no official Dev he can blame. the Player\User must do his own research and checking. NEVER believe any Modder who says "This is the ultimate mod and it will have everything you want without any problems!" on face value.

How many times have I seen Modders of this and other games who promise the earth and when I have tried the Mod it falls sadly short and only after a few people notice it does the modder come clean. Good Modders will make sure that every possible problem is mentioned and a readme and every good user will make sure he reads it.

Phil_K
11-15-2009, 01:39 PM
Now that the mod community has fractured it will continue to fracture further. There won't be any coming-together for some mythical unified mod. At the end of the day, you're never going to get mature and thoughtful developments from a bunch of grown men who are still playing computer games. If Oleg understands only one thing about us, it is this - we are all overgrown schoolchildren.

I think the mod thing was good while it lasted, but now the only mods I tend to use are ones that are compatible with the vanilla game - improved markings, improved map textures, cockpit repaints etc. For new planes and maps I will wait for the official patches. At the end of the day I see the big mods like new planes and new maps will have such a small constituency that they'll be barely worth the effort of creating. If Squadron X want to create their own Typhoon that will only be shared among their 25 members, what is the point of putting the effort in? This is the way the mod community is going.

F19_Orheim
11-15-2009, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Phil_K:
It is bad enough that a grown man should spend the greater balance of his time playing a game on a computer. It is yet worse that he should spend the remainder of his time arguing about it on the internet.


Darn it, I need to tape that up on my wall. My wife will love it and maybe I can stay away http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

csThor
11-15-2009, 09:44 PM
We're all just overgrown little boys, aren't we? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Orheim
11-16-2009, 01:59 AM
I am still in denial http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bearcat99
11-16-2009, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
In case you haven't noticed - anyone hoping for "one" mod install ignores the history of any kind of user modding and the nature of human beings. There will never be a single centralized mod install - the only time that worked was when the BDG kept tools and code of Rowan's BoB close to its chest. In a situation like ours here all it takes is a minor disagreement between modders and BANG you have another offspring mod site claiming to have the holy grail. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Ain't gonna happen, that unity you seek. You let the spirits out of the bottle, now deal with them. I predicted that development as soon as that modding hype got going. And I am still vanilla ... and will remain so.

I dunno Thor.. I mean after all.. we were supposed to be seeing all kinds of UFOs and hacks online by now... and that hasn't happened.. Call me maive but I think this community is different from other communities... I don't think it is a pipe dream... and manyh of the problems people are having with mod packs are due to improper installation.. not all but many.. These mods are here to stay.. and the sky has not fallen in, the sim is still thriving, and for me anyway.. online flying is just as much fun as it has ever been.. My biggest problem is having the time to do it. IMO rather than cursing the darkness or waving my finger with an aha I told you so.. it is better, at least for those who care about it, to try to direct things toward a more positive end..



Originally posted by csThor:
It's rather the smug satisfaction of an adult who told some kids that touching a flame is a bad idea. Now that the kids have found a match and lit it they touched the flame ... and now they complain that fire burns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

.............. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Originally posted by Phil_K:
Now that the mod community has fractured it will continue to fracture further. There won't be any coming-together for some mythical unified mod. At the end of the day, you're never going to get mature and thoughtful developments from a bunch of grown men who are still playing computer games. If Oleg understands only one thing about us, it is this - we are all overgrown schoolchildren.

I think the mod thing was good while it lasted, but now the only mods I tend to use are ones that are compatible with the vanilla game - improved markings, improved map textures, cockpit repaints etc. For new planes and maps I will wait for the official patches. At the end of the day I see the big mods like new planes and new maps will have such a small constituency that they'll be barely worth the effort of creating. If Squadron X want to create their own Typhoon that will only be shared among their 25 members, what is the point of putting the effort in? This is the way the mod community is going.

All this positivity in one thread is just.. so overwhelming... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

It is so funny... I was looking at some of the old threads that were propheseying the end of the sim 2 years ago.. and here we are... and not only that but much of the paranoia from back then proved to be unfounded on so many levels.. This community has not been like most other modded sim communities.. and that wont change.. I think all this will work out better than manynay sayewrs want to believe it will...

Brain32
11-16-2009, 07:20 AM
The ONLY REAL SOLUTION for online play is in TD hands, if TD guys can lock up the game in one of the future versions then there's a chance online play may retrieve some of the many lost people, squads etc.

For now, IL2 in current state only fomally supports online play.
And yeah it was a good run, I thought it would last until the SoW:BoB release but it didn't, oh well...

Worf101
11-16-2009, 07:36 AM
Well, as Swivett and others have said, mod mania has all but killed this game for me. The community has fractured into a thousand pieces. Few Servers and even fewer Coops drivers use 4.09m and I don't see it getting any better, truth be told. I now mostly fly "offline". Just not worth the hassle and believe me I was fully modded but AAA 1.2 and 4.09m was the last straw. Guess it's wait for SOW, 2 weeks, be sure.

Worf

Bearcat99
11-16-2009, 07:40 AM
I think a lot of that is what you make it.. I still have a ball online... I just refuse to get paranoid about who is flying what.. I think that the fact that DT is expanding things for those who want an official expanded version of the sim is a great thing... but I also feel that the mods add greatly to the experience.. and it still just floors me that we have so much negativity around things that still have yet to materialize in the manner in which so may were concerned over ... 2 years ago.

People back off the sim because that is what they have chosen to do... the process is not as tedious as some make it out to be.

squareusr
11-16-2009, 08:18 AM
Even one unified modpack would be a multi-version nightmare, because release cycles of this kind of user generated stuff are short enough to warrant at least three different generations of this hypothetical unified pack being in active use at any given point in time.

The only way out of this (besides sticking to DT releases) would be a server-controlled mod activator, where the activation of mods is not controlled by placing funny characters in front of file names but by server configuration, just like vanilla IL2 delegates control of difficulty level to the server configuration. That, and generous versioning where published mods are considered immutable and updates are published under a new ID rather than replacing the existing version (ideally this would be coupled with a maven-like distribution system, but that's a minor detail).

The technical possibility of this is a minefield of uncertainties, because the actual loader/activator technology isn't well published (for very, very good reason), but a usability-optimized mod enabler like this would be worth more than 90% of all the existing mods together.

paddyjed
11-16-2009, 08:37 AM
We recently took the plunge and put our money where our mouth was and rented a dedicated server in order to run it the way we wanted (a little more relaxed than others). there was a long discussion about making it modded but with so much indecision about which to go for we left it unmodded for now. What a great decision that was!!.

SYN_4.09m CRT=2 full real settings and unmodded. The server is very well populated and more and more people are flooding back to enjoy lag free smooth gaming!!.

give it a try if u feel the urge to purge :P

SeaFireLIV
11-16-2009, 10:12 AM
I still believe CSthor is correct. You may get something close, but from experience I`ve never seen one modpack to bind them all!

The nature of Human beings makes it highly unlikely.

Gammelpreusse
11-16-2009, 10:46 AM
Some of you guys need a life. It's fine and well discussing the pros and cons of mods, but some ppl make an ideological question out of a darn computer game.

SeaFireLIV
11-16-2009, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
Some of you guys need a life. It's fine and well discussing the pros and cons of mods, but some ppl make an ideological question out of a darn computer game.

Yawn, and you`re better than that are you? then what are you doing here?

Phillip58
11-16-2009, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by trumper:
Well it sounds to me like an awful lot of people who don't fly online any more or their squads that don't had given up before the mods or like me were on the verge of it anyway.The mods can't be used as purely as an excuse.
I can say our squad has come to life again,10+ flying last night,i think we will be flying tonight + other squads .
Log in here in a years time and i bet there will still be active people and groups flying both on and off line and the whinging about SOW will be just as bad as the good old days of the "Oleg fix this,Oleg fix that" in IL2.
To be honest it sounds like a change is as good as a rest.
I must say i am puzzled though,800 people in H/Lobby at the moment ,they must have found something that works.

800 people? Man, that ain't nuthin. 20 year old games like the Original CounterStrike have still thousands, even tens of thousands still playing. And please, please, don't start the old "apples and oranges" bull, OK?

And just how many people are really flying and not talking smack on chat?

Yep, the mods have really scrood-up the onwhine part now. Some of these all-n-one mod packs are good, but over 90% of the stuff I don't like or use. Then try to log onto a server! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Oh well, thank goodness for Wolfenstein!

Phillip

F19_Orheim
11-16-2009, 12:22 PM
well apples and pears then,

Thou shalt not compare with another game but rather how many played this game through HL* let's say 3-4 years ago. Anything else is just... correct.. apples and pears.

*not counting how many play through other gameclients such as xfire which does not show in HL. IL2 is far fram dead I tell you...rwaareerreee grrrr http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

BTW. The original version of CS was a 3rd-party Half-Life mod which went commercial after awhile (go figure)... and it was released in -99 so I have no idea what kind of time frame you live in... 20 years??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and Wolfenstein?.. think about mods ??? rings a bell? ETPub, Jaymod, TJmod, NoQuarter,ETPro, OmniBot, TCE?...wow

DrHerb
11-16-2009, 12:25 PM
The squad Im in, _AH_, went the route of everyone has the same mod install, plus a few addons i.e Carrier landing ect ect. still 4.09B1M. Mind you, were pretty large, so we fly amongst ourselves in coops and dont dogfight that much.

rnzoli
11-16-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I still believe CSthor is correct. You may get something close, but from experience I`ve never seen one modpack to bind them all!

The nature of Human beings makes it highly unlikely.
Don't underestimate the technical challenges either. The bigger the mod pack, the more difficult it becomes track interdependencies etc. An average mod-creator toils along well when it comes to regression testing his own creature, but when he needs to regression test against 120+ other mods, maps and whatnot, you need more than just enthusiasm. So there will always be different quality levels among the mods, and that makes it quite difficult to put them into a single bunch. The problems faced by the mod pack creators start to resemble closely the challenges Oleg's team faces with the vanilla game - change something small somewhere, and you get an unexpected effect at another place. To counter that, more time is needed on quality test, which naturally slows down the implementation of new/improved mods into the supposedly big and uniform pack, also resembling the vanilla game, where patches started to take the Olegish 2 weeks time... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BillSwagger
11-16-2009, 07:57 PM
so is HSFX and UP 1.8 pretty much the same thing?

I've installed both, and they both appear to have the same features, except that the UP offers more planes.

It almost looks as though UP 1.7 and HSFX came together to make UP 1.8.

It also has a mods folder where i've added my own sounds and default files. The mods folder still gets loaded first, so if i don't like a sound, or a particular texture, i can still load my own stuff and it won't interfere with the game or compatibility issues.

This is how i see the universal mods going. You use the JSGME to orient the mods in place, and possibly enforce crt=2 standards. Then the user can add additional files to better serve their own needs such as additional sounds or textures that won't interfere with CRT. By having it pre oriented into the JSGME it keeps the user from including files in their mods that might conflict with CRT or each other.
Different servers may want to use different settings, so you have different options with in the JSGME.

This is already something i do manually, but having it oriented like this will be faster and easier for less experienced players to use.

Bill

Daiichidoku
11-16-2009, 11:04 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/onemodtorule.jpg

vpmedia
11-16-2009, 11:18 PM
lol I thought that I check out this forum again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

still the same old song in the jukebox? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

csThor
11-16-2009, 11:46 PM
Nah, that's a cover version. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Metatron_123
11-17-2009, 01:39 AM
The reason I refrain from installing UP 1.8 is all those supposed 'new slot Bf-109 with (ZOMG) RL performance!' It seems a bit holier than thou and smug...

BillSwagger
11-17-2009, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
The reason I refrain from installing UP 1.8 is all those supposed 'new slot Bf-109 with (ZOMG) RL performance!' It seems a bit holier than thou and smug...

ha'

I noticed those, and tried the RL FW190A-9 or was it A-8, anyway, i didn't notice any difference. I'm sure they will add more RL versions of other planes, if not it does seem to be a one sided endeavor. There are several planes i think could use a RL overhaul, but thats not really what this thread is about.

After spending more time with it, the UP 1.8 is more and more like the HSFX with added planes.

I haven't tried this online, but in theory is seems like the way to go.



Bill

Gammelpreusse
11-17-2009, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
Some of you guys need a life. It's fine and well discussing the pros and cons of mods, but some ppl make an ideological question out of a darn computer game.

Yawn, and you`re better than that are you? then what are you doing here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Felt adressed?

But to your question, simple, to tell opinionated guys like you to get their perspective right. Nobody is served with simple bickering.

trumper
11-17-2009, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Phillip58:

800 people? Man, that ain't nuthin. 20 year old games like the Original CounterStrike have still thousands, even tens of thousands still playing. And please, please, don't start the old "apples and oranges" bull, OK?

And just how many people are really flying and not talking smack on chat?

Yep, the mods have really scrood-up the onwhine part now. Some of these all-n-one mod packs are good, but over 90% of the stuff I don't like or use. Then try to log onto a server! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Oh well, thank goodness for Wolfenstein!

Phillip

What percentage of gamers play 1st person shooter type games compared to flight sims ?I would guess it is 1000's to 1.Stand in a computer game shop and count the combat flight sims, <span class="ev_code_RED">IF YOU CAN FIND ANY FLIGHT SIM GAMES ON THE SHELF THAT IS</span>
800 people probably aint "nuthin" because not all people want to fly online either,.
I think it was a week or so ago a new game was released [i don't play them so i don't know the title,possibly a call of duty type] but they released it and the queues were running round the shop late at night to buy it,flight sims will NEVER sell like that.
If you hate the mods so much set up a server for your settings but don't condemn others because they have set up servers to suit what they want.

BillSwagger
11-17-2009, 02:45 AM
Il2 is an older game, its likely to see a decline anyway as newer games/sims come out.



Bill

NuMcA_of_CS
11-18-2009, 09:48 PM
I believe the opportunity of choices given by all the existing mods is something that gives IL2 some "salt and pepper". Should not be overlooked, but i cannot say i spend my day browsing for the hottest mod around. Some of them are must-have's though.

BigC208
11-19-2009, 06:39 AM
I'am also tired of dating 18 year old swimsuit models. Choice is good.