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View Full Version : Interesting find on Spitfires fighting Spitfires and Me109/P51D in Arab/Israeli War..



Xiolablu3
06-28-2007, 08:09 AM
While looking for quotes on the pitfires cockpit I found this. Its about the ISraelis making up servicable aircraft from scrappped planes and spare parts, also planes which were allies in WW2 facing each other, very interesting read :

Spitfires :-

http://101squadron.com/101real/spitfires.html

Mustangs :-

http://101squadron.com/101real/mustangs.html

Me109/S199 :-

http://101squadron.com/101real/s-199s.html

Main Page :-

http://101squadron.com/101/aircraft.html

Lots of Friendly fire incidents on RAF aircraft in there.

tigertalon
06-28-2007, 08:16 AM
quote from link:
In mock dog-fights, we concluded that the Messerschmitt could out-climb, out-dive and out-zoom the Spitfire and Mustang. The Spitfire could out-turn the Messerschmitt, the most important manoeuvre in air combat, and both could out-turn the Mustang. The Mustang was the fastest, the Messerschmitt the slowest, though there was not much in it. The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. The Spitfire had two 20-mm cannon and four .303-in machine guns (sic; actually, the 101 Squadron Spits had two .50s, not four .303s), the Mustang six 12.7-mm machine guns (i.e. .50-calibre), and the Messerschmitt two 20-mm cannon and two 7.92-mm machine guns (sic; actually two 13.1-mm machine guns) synchronised to fire through the arc of the propeller.... Despite the pros and cons the Spitfire was everyone's first choice. (Levett 1994)

Interesting read, ty for sharing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

One question: ...the Messerschmitt (had) two 20-mm cannon... A typo or was nose cannon removed for some reason?

Divine-Wind
06-28-2007, 08:19 AM
The 109's delivered to Israel were Czechoslovakian S-199's, if I remember correctly. Different armaments, and poor engines.

Ratsack
06-28-2007, 08:32 AM
Yes, the 109 was the Avia S-199 'Mezec' (Mule). It was meant to be the nastiest version of the 109 ever to see the light of day. It was the outcome of an idle Czech war industry, spare G-14 airframe components, and a warehouse fire that destroyed all their DB engines.

Some bright spark thought it might be a good idea to shoehorn Junkers 211 F engines (for He 111 H bombers) in the thing in place of the DB 605 AM. The result is the misbegotten by-blow of a Heinkel and a Messerschmitt, known to aviation history as the Mezec.

I understand some Israelis managed to score kills in this thing. There may even have been an ace among them.

'orrible.

Ratsack

Xiolablu3
06-28-2007, 08:34 AM
Yes they were made up from bits of all sorts of planes and named S-199's. (Apparantly the resulting plane was very poor and not liked by the Israeli pilots)


They will have had the same cockpit as the usual 109's thats why I used the quotes for the other thread.

EVen tho the Jumo engines were from a He111, they were obviously good in some ways if they could outzoom and outdive a Mustang and outclimb a Spitfire.

Lots of good info on comparisons.

How in the freindly fire incident vs the Tempest 6's, the SPitfire IX's had no trouble in a dogfight (shot down 1 and damaged others), but were easily outrun.

Just like the game.

Kurfurst__
06-28-2007, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
One question: ...the Messerschmitt (had) two 20-mm cannon... A typo or was nose cannon removed for some reason?

I presume the Jumo engine fitted could not take a cannon through the engine shaft. Funny thing about the Jumo they fitted, IIRC it revolved in the opposite direction the DB engine did. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

No matter, they still put it in, and the Israelis were desperate enough to buy that... thing.

Xiolablu3
06-28-2007, 08:37 AM
Yes I believe in these S199's (They were not really Messerscmitts, just used a mash up of MesserSchmitt parts, Willy would probably have scrapped them all) had 20mm cannon in Gondolas under the wings.

Divine-Wind
06-28-2007, 08:39 AM
When you have no air force even an ugly 109-Heinkel spawn looks good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Although to be honest I rather like the look of the S-199. It's like the 109's grandbaby.

Xiolablu3
06-28-2007, 08:49 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/AVIA-S_199.jpg/250px-AVIA-S_199.jpg

You can see the gondolas, but they look like they have the cannon removed, unless they are short barrelled Hispanos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199

http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/S199/boxart.jpg

If anyone has any better pictures, I would love to see them.

Xiolablu3
06-28-2007, 08:55 AM
http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/s199-i.jpg


http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/s199/s199-5.jpg


http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/s199/s199-7.jpg

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/s199.html

I just realised why they had no cannon firing through the engine, the Jumo will have had no space there for a cannon... (Sorry I see Kurfurt already said that)

Mysticpuma2003
06-28-2007, 11:55 AM
Have you seen Joe90's movie "Brothers in Arms"?

I believe it relates to this topic quite specifically.

Cheers, MP.

faustnik
06-28-2007, 01:28 PM
Xio,

That's a fascinating read. Thanks for posting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I like this:

The Israelis banked right and made an attack. On the first pass, Schroeder knocked a Tempest out of the sky - the RAF airplane had gone out of control and spun in, the pilot, F/O David Crossley Tattersfield, probably killed in the initial attack. A furball ensued, in which the more nimble Spitfire LF 9s of the Israelis could outfight the heavier and faster Tempests. Weizman hit one Tempest with a long burst and his companions damaged two others, but they, like the rest of the RAF aircraft there and below, quit the combat and outran the Israelis.

Sounds like it took the Tempest pilots a minute or two to figure out what the Fw190 pilots did in WW2, don't dogfight Spitfires.

Kurfurst__
06-28-2007, 01:40 PM
Sounds more like everybody seeminlgly went crazy, Spitfires firing on Tempests, while He 111 donored 109 wingman covers them, guys flying planes produced by the empire that colonized them against guys flying the planes produced by the empire that was seeking the exterminate them... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The only thing consistent is that the P-51 won that war, too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Warrington_Wolf
06-28-2007, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/AVIA-S_199.jpg/250px-AVIA-S_199.jpg

You can see the gondolas, but they look like they have the cannon removed, unless they are short barrelled Hispanos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199

http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/S199/boxart.jpg

If anyone has any better pictures, I would love to see them.
I remember reading somewhere (possibly here) that Israeli pilots nicknamed the Avia S-199 "Hitler's Revenge" because it was such a ******* to fly.

alert_1
06-28-2007, 02:03 PM
S199 outclimbing the Spit? LOL! Jumo 211 had about 1350hp and S199 take off weight was at least 3300kg..so how must then climb real e109G14 with 1800hp DB605?

Enforcer572005
06-28-2007, 08:37 PM
The S-199 was the only fighter they could find at the time and they paid an outrageous amount of money for them (in the millions). They were all they had, and one shot down two Egyptian C47s used as bombers on one misn. There were only 3 or 4 P51s used in that war, but they saw alot of action in the 56 war.

woofiedog
06-28-2007, 09:45 PM
You can't leave out the Macchi C. 205.

In 1948-1949, Egypt received 62 refurbished C.205Vs, of which 41 were converted from C.202 airframes.

http://www.cieldegloire.com/as_israel/israel03.jpg

Link: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=htt...%2BREAF%2B%26hl%3Den (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.cieldegloire.com/batailles_israel_1948.php&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=6&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2B%2BMacchi%2BMC.205V%2BREAF%2B%26hl %3Den)

Xiolablu3
06-28-2007, 09:53 PM
You can see why so many RAF planes were mistaken for Egyptian planes, when you look at that Model Box cover Art.

The Egyptian SPitfire looks very similar to the RAF Desert SPitfires, even the Markings are almost identical. Just missing the Red middle of the roundels..

http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/S199/boxart.jpg

MOre info on the 'Fog Of War' attacks on RAF planes :-

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.HTM


Seems quite crazythat, after Britain gave up territory in Palestine, that it had held since the Crusades, to give to Israel and start up their own country, just one year later Israel was shooting down RAF planes.

ALso many of the Israeli pilots were Ex-RAF and USAAF.

Lucky for the ISraelis that the RAF were wise enough not to retaliate.

stathem
06-29-2007, 03:24 AM
Xiola, thanks for finding this/bringing to attention.

Really interesting read.

JG53Frankyboy
06-29-2007, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
..............
Seems quite crazythat, after Britain gave up territory in Palestine, that it had held since the Crusades, ................

actually more since the WW1 ended http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

the last crusader Castle (and that was far from i would call it british..........., sorry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) was "lost" in the 13th century http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

luftluuver
06-29-2007, 06:54 AM
Seems quite crazythat, after Britain gave up territory in Palestine, that it had held since the Crusades
I think the Ottoman Empire would disagree strongly with you Xio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/ottoman-empire-1580.gif

Xiolablu3
06-29-2007, 10:13 AM
Sorry, pre 1930's history has never been my strong point.

HOw I remember it from the history channel :-

Britian went off slaughtering people in the crusades and conquered Jerusalem a few times in the name of 'God' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

In the end Richard and Saladin decided to 'share' control and Britian ruled a piece of the land there,

WHat happaned in between this point in history and 1945?

And who controlled the land that Israel was built on? I always thought that Britain 'gave up' the land it ruled there to Israel, when it was breaking down its empire at the end of WW2. (It could hardly carry on being an 'empire' after causing so much fuss over Hitlers aspirations afeter all)


Thanks for your replies and help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stathem
06-29-2007, 10:19 AM
Well, as a good starting point, Richard, Coeur de Lion wasn't a Brit, he owned more real estate in France than in Britain, and was pretty much French (or actually Norman which means sort of Scandinavian) and the crusades were an early kind of NATO effort.

Confused yet?

stathem
06-29-2007, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
WHat happaned in between this point in history and 1945?

Lots.


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
And who controlled the land that Israel was built on? I always thought that Britain 'gave up' the land it ruled there to Israel, when it was breaking down its empire at the end of WW2. (It could hardly carry on being an 'empire' after causing so much fuss over Hitlers aspirations afeter all)


Thanks for your replies and help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Really the bit you're looking is that during the First World War, the Ottoman Turks were allied with the axis powers.

In addition to the F'up at the Dardanelles, the British (well, mostly Indians), in one of THE most important campaigns of the first war, fought the Turkish empire in Palestine and Iraq (incidentally grabbing all those oil wells to provide the fuel for all those lovely Camels (the planes, not the oversized ships of the desert)).

Thus the British were in control of those parts of the Middle East to which you allude (and the French got Syria) after 1917-18.

Xiolablu3
06-29-2007, 10:57 AM
Thanks for your reply Stathem, seem I have a lot of reading to do on this subject. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW your first name isnt 'Charles' is it? I had a friend at school called CHarlie Stathem.

stathem
06-29-2007, 11:03 AM
No, this was just an off the top of my head nick that I got stuck with when going online originally; Il2 being my first and only online game.

Poker_4H
06-29-2007, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Well, as a good starting point, Richard, Coeur de Lion wasn't a Brit, he owned more real estate in France than in Britain, and was pretty much French (or actually Norman which means sort of Scandinavian) and the crusades were an early kind of NATO effort.

Confused yet?

I thought Norman were more Celt than Scando ... or was that Brittany ?

Xiolablu3
06-29-2007, 12:29 PM
I thought Norman meant 'from Normandy', ie the very northern of France.

It was created for a viking apparantly :-

The fiefdom of Normandy was created for the Viking leader Rollo (also known as Robert of Normandy). Rollo had besieged Paris but in 911 entered vassalage to the king of the West Franks Charles the Simple through the Treaty of St.-Claire-sur-Epte. In exchange for his homage and fealty, Rollo legally gained the territory he and his Viking allies had previously conquered. The name "Normandy" reflects Rollo's Viking (i.e. "Northman") origins.

The descendants of Rollo and his followers adopted the local Gallo-Romantic language and intermarried with the area's previous inhabitants and became the Normans a Norman French-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, Franks, and to a much lesser extent, indigenous Gauls

Divine-Wind
06-29-2007, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
Have you seen Joe90's movie "Brothers in Arms"?

I believe it relates to this topic quite specifically.

Cheers, MP.
There's a campaign at M4T based on this war. Really good, great skins too.

WhtBoy
06-29-2007, 09:43 PM
IIRC the final aerial combat between 109s and Spitfires resulted in an Israeli 109 downing an Egyptian Spitfire.

--Outlaw.

Doolittle81
07-02-2007, 12:09 PM
For those interested in the original subject of the thread, it would definitely be worth your time to download/view "Brothers in Arms". A synopsis of the movie: "On 7 January 1949, as the Israeli War of Independence was coming to an end, three nations' Air Forces, all equipped with Spitfires, were at the front line. This is a true story about the combat events of that day and the men who fought in them"

Netwings..."Brothers in Arms" download page (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles_and_Pacific_Fighters/Videos/index-11.html)

Also, visit the FlightSimMachinima (http://flightsimmachinima.blogspot.com) website for other IL2/FB/PF/1946 movies of interest.

"Brothers in Arms" was awarded the Golden OLEG as the outstanding historical docudrama of 2006.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russellboyd/fsm/theoleg.jpg
Note: The OLEG is an award given to select Flight Sim Machinima movies which use the IL2-Forgotten Battles-Pacific Fighters PC Flight Simulation series as the engine for generating the images.

This series was created by the Maddox 1C Company, located in Russia, headed by Mr. Oleg Maddox. This award was created in honour of Mr. Maddox.

A panel of Flight Sim Machinima producers, directors, and others review all submitted Flight Sim Machinima movies and provide recommendations as to the inclusion of each movie on the Flight Sim Machinima site and, whenever it seems warranted, the panel submits recommendations for the award of an OLEG for particularly outstanding achievements in some aspect of the production of Flight Sim Machinima.

Heliopause
07-02-2007, 01:13 PM
About one Avia S-199 pilot:
Lionel Morris Bloch.
SAAF fighter pilot with 4 squadron in Italy, MIA July 10, 1948, his body was returned to Israel from Syria in 1949. Was mistakenly buried as an infantry soldier, the error only coming to light in 1994!

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