PDA

View Full Version : "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!" - How Clostermann got shot down by a D9



Alex_Voicu
12-08-2007, 06:33 AM
I tried to translate this from an article in a romanian magazine. It's a fragment from the book "Une sacree guerre" by P. Clostermann:

On 25 of April 1945, just before the end of the war, i was on combat patrol with another 5 Tempests along the Osnabruck-Breme highway, over the great Dummersee lake. I was flying the best RAF fighter and the war was almost over; in short, i was in a sort of state that English call overconfidence. Nevertheless, in the last few weeks 1/JG26 shot down 14 of our Tempests. An entire allied squadron!
Suddenly, a Long Nose FW190 comes out of a cloud; i see him with the corner of my eye coming like an arrow, and before i can even move, the Tempest on my right explodes...then another explosion on my right, a wing floats like a leaf and the Focke Wulf vanishes into another cloud, only to show up somewhere in front of me, just above the lake surface. I called one of my pilots on the radio and asked him to take over: "Cover me, i'm going, i'm going after him, keep your altitude". Then i said something to remember: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"

I would like to add here that RAF issued every month a confidential magazine, with advice and information considered useful for pilots, which included the most stupid mistakes we did, of course with the intention of avoiding them in the future. In one of these issues, under the "Most famous last words" headline (i could have removed the sentence of course, i had the power, it was the last wartime issue, but i didn't) my words appeared: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"

So i'm really pushing my Tempest, and while diving the speed builds up like crazy: 750, 800 Km/h...I'm now flying just above the water and i'm closing in at about 400 m behind the german. I say to myself it looks pretty good, i have the sun behind me, the FW is in the shade... I reach out to adjust my gunsight and unlock my four 20 mm cannon, then i look up... the german is not there any more! Good God, where is he?! I can't believe this, this old fox let me come close behind him, rocking his wings gently to send me to sleep and, right at the moment when i leaned over the gunsight, he sprung out vertically like a rocket! I did't really have a choice, i went up after him, pulling hard on the stick, crushed against the seat and with my head whirling, trying not to let him out of my sight. I could see the tail of that plane climbing and climbing, but suddenly i felt my Tempest shaking and buffeting. I am completely bewildered... i'll probably spin, and the spin, which is forbidden for the Tempest under 3000 m, will surely make me crash into the ground... So i panicked, breaking the seal and pushing the throttle to emergency power. Then i did a completely stupid maneuver, trying to regain control of my plane but succeeding to build up some speed though. But againg the FW disappeared! Where is he?

Bang!
The first projectile bounces off the cowling. Bang! Another one. I feel the shock. The engine suddenly stops, and so does my heart... the propeller hangs like a cross in front of me and black smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes. You can't imagine what it feels like. The whole universe crumbles in a split second! You feel like everything inside you drains off, you no longer have a heart, stomach, brain, saliva... Just a terrible fear that replaces everything else.

It was, as usual with fighter planes, a matter of centimeters: the first projectile bounced off the armor plate of the fuel tank, filled with 1000 liters of fuel... I tried to glide, well, as good as at Tempest could glide! I realised with horror that i was too low to bail out; what was i supposed to do? I completely panicked. I opened the canopy, but it jamed, i pulled the jettison handle but it wasn't working, when, completely astounded, i see flying close, very close to me, maybe less than 20 m away, the fuselage of the D9, painted brown with green spots and wearing the red and yellow bands of JG301. A fabulous machine... He didn't want to get ahead of me and closed his throttle, probably worrying i'll try to play some tricks on him before going down. I even have the time to admire him in detail! And he has more than enough time to finish me off. He doesn't... there's no point in doing it. Was he trying to teach me a lesson? He goes around me in a half-roll, i saw -i can still see- the face of the pilot looking at me, but suddenly the ground is right in front of me!

I crash-landed. 100 meters of sliding in a thick mud - a coal quarry. That saved me, absorbing the shock in a cloud of black mud. I rushed out of the smoking plane, ignoring 2 things. The parachute harness somehow got tangled into the seat, and that stoped me for a moment. I set it free, forgetting that the mask was coupled to the oxygen bottles with a flexible tube and a fitting. The tube extended, only to come off a moment later and the fitting hit me hard in the face. Seeing black before my eyes from the hit, i jumped on the mud covered wing, slid and fell on my butt in the mud. Then i heard the specific sound of a german engine. As beautiful as their planes looked, their engines always sounded like a wreck. I can still see the black propeller hub coming towards me, with the white rotating spiral... Is he going to shoot? No, he rocks his wings gently and pulls up. I continued to lie there, dumbfounded and scared, until two americans, too stupid to recognize an allied plane, stuck their machinegun barrels under my nose...

An US Stinson brought me back to my base. I was saved! All this time, the other squadmates thought the german was the one shot down and they were congratulating me on the radio. I explained them later! That evening, at the officer's mess, all my pilots ironically applauded when i walked into the room. A bilboard, which seemed much too big, was hanging from the ceiling: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"
The check that night cost me the pay for a whole month.

Spinnetti
12-08-2007, 06:38 AM
A gripping story! Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bewolf
12-08-2007, 06:47 AM
Sounds odd to me. Any confirmations?

MEGILE
12-08-2007, 06:56 AM
Out-aced. what a shame.

waffen-79
12-08-2007, 07:07 AM
AWESOME story, fake or real, sounds plaussible

Manu-6S
12-08-2007, 07:09 AM
i'll probably spin, and the spin, which is forbidden for the Tempest under 3000 m, will surely make me crash into the ground

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tell this to the Tempest's guys in Warclouds... the last time my enemy stalled 5 times at 500m while I was BnZing him... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Alex_Voicu
12-08-2007, 07:24 AM
C'mon guys, how can it be fake? Some errors may occur during a french-romanian-english translation, but it doesn't mean it's completely made up. The book exists, check it yourself. The magazine was called "Aeromagazin" and it usually had well researched articles.
Others already posted comments on this incident in the "Tempest vs FW190 in reality" thread, but without giving details of the story.

I'm not sure about the identity of the german pilot. Some sources say it was Hans Dortenmann, others say Rudi Wurff.

waffen-79
12-08-2007, 07:34 AM
Hey guys, is there a compilation of 'Last Words' for pilots?

ViktorViktor
12-08-2007, 08:37 AM
I recognise that story from Clostermann's 'The Big Show'.

By the way, if I remember correctly the Americans go on to hit Clostermann in the stomach with their gun butts and steal his watch. If not here then in another part of the book. Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

Alex_Voicu
12-08-2007, 08:45 AM
Was it included in the new release of "The Big Show"? I didn't know that. It's certainly NOT included in the older release.

ViktorViktor
12-08-2007, 08:56 AM
Hi Alex -
I dug around and finally found my copy of 'The Big Show'.

I must have the new release cuz the story is in the book and it's a chapter called 'A lesson from an expert'.

It's a story well worth sharing with the forum and you did a good job translating it. I'm glad you brought it up, I had forgotten it!

Alex_Voicu
12-08-2007, 09:06 AM
Thanks Viktor, i should buy the new release. It looks like the new stuff is quite interesting.

Schwarz.13
12-08-2007, 09:21 AM
Great story, thanks!

I'm actually reading the new edition of 'The Big Show' at the moment but i haven't got that far yet - must get a move on! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TheBandit_76
12-08-2007, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And Americans don't care for Clusterman. Apparently he was somewhat of a completely average pilot. Robert S. Johnson would have never fallen for that move.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mortoma
12-08-2007, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I recognise that story from Clostermann's 'The Big Show'.

By the way, if I remember correctly the Americans go on to hit Clostermann in the stomach with their gun butts and steal his watch. If not here then in another part of the book. Clostermann didn't care for Americans. Well not all Americans would do something like that, I sure would not have. It may have been some low life screwballs but every country has some of those. I'm quite sure if I tried hard enough I could get mugged in any GB or European city. But I would not judge the entire country by those fellows actions.

Chivas
12-08-2007, 11:02 AM
If I remember correctly he was alittle pissed at the indiscrimate bombing of French villages. Much like most of us would be, if it were our homeland. War is hell.

Chivas
12-08-2007, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I recognise that story from Clostermann's 'The Big Show'.

By the way, if I remember correctly the Americans go on to hit Clostermann in the stomach with their gun butts and steal his watch. If not here then in another part of the book. Clostermann didn't care for Americans. Well not all Americans would do something like that, I sure would not have. It may have been some low life screwballs but every country has some of those. I'm quite sure if I tried hard enough I could get mugged in any GB or European city. But I would not judge the entire country by those fellows actions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

ICDP
12-08-2007, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And Americans don't care for Clusterman. Apparently he was somewhat of a completely average pilot. Robert S. Johnson would have never fallen for that move. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, what a totally disrespectful thing to say about a guy who flew and almost died fighting for freedom. I mean you even insult his memory by making jokes about his name.

What a piece of **** you are. You are by far one of the most obnoxious morons to have ever posted on these boards.

Phas3e
12-08-2007, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I recognise that story from Clostermann's 'The Big Show'.

By the way, if I remember correctly the Americans go on to hit Clostermann in the stomach with their gun butts and steal his watch. If not here then in another part of the book. Clostermann didn't care for Americans. Well not all Americans would do something like that, I sure would not have. It may have been some low life screwballs but every country has some of those. I'm quite sure if I tried hard enough I could get mugged in any GB or European city. But I would not judge the entire country by those fellows actions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like some people here need to realise about the Germans and Japanese.

RegRag1977
12-08-2007, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And Americans don't care for Clusterman. Apparently he was somewhat of a completely average pilot. Robert S. Johnson would have never fallen for that move.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clostermann did care for american pilots: in his book, if you read it before posting, you will notice about his admiration for a damaged bomber crew and pilots that he escorted against FW.

In his book he speaks about his respect for one of his friend, the talented american ace Gabriel "Gaby" Gabreski, famous and gifted P47 ace pilot. He said that he could not imagine being so succesful with such a Monster plane, and precised that for Gabreski, it seemed to be like riding a bicycle!

Another of his friend was Christian Champan, another american pilot, that volonteered in 41 with the free french air force. The man was later minister in US embassy in Paris, and was decorated Officier de la Légion d'Honneur (highest distinction, very and rare for non french people) by president Pompidou himself in 1970 during his travel in the US...

There are lots of other examples, like his description of the impressive arrival of the USAF 56th fighter squadron at Biggin Hill (he speaks about perfect formation, meeting breaks, perfect landings...)

So just read the book! May be you'll change your mind... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RegRag1977
12-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Chivas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I recognise that story from Clostermann's 'The Big Show'.

By the way, if I remember correctly the Americans go on to hit Clostermann in the stomach with their gun butts and steal his watch. If not here then in another part of the book. Clostermann didn't care for Americans. Well not all Americans would do something like that, I sure would not have. It may have been some low life screwballs but every country has some of those. I'm quite sure if I tried hard enough I could get mugged in any GB or European city. But I would not judge the entire country by those fellows actions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

RegRag1977
12-08-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And Americans don't care for Clusterman. Apparently he was somewhat of a completely average pilot. Robert S. Johnson would have never fallen for that move.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't under estimate the german pilot that downed Clostermann :

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dortenmann.html

And in general, don't under estimate any expert pilot, R. S. Johnson, Clostermann, and Dortenmann were all aces.

Being an ace is not a matter of nationality: even the best can be shot down: remember Marseille or Oesau, for instance.

DuxCorvan
12-08-2007, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
By the way, if I remember correctly the Americans go on to hit Clostermann in the stomach with their gun butts and steal his watch. If not here then in another part of the book. Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And that proves? Only that there are SOBs in every part of the world. Had he met a bunch of Spanish, Uzbek, Polish, Chinese or Tahitian SOBs, the outcome would have been the same. Heck, that can happen to you even among your countrymen.

And, no matter if he cared for the Americans or not, he surely preferred them to be there and not in the opposite side of the ocean.

Xiolablu3
12-08-2007, 01:17 PM
OFF TOPIC:-



Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i'll probably spin, and the spin, which is forbidden for the Tempest under 3000 m, will surely make me crash into the ground

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tell this to the Tempest's guys in Warclouds... the last time my enemy stalled 5 times at 500m while I was BnZing him... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



SHOCK HORROR.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Your beloved FW190's were known for their violent snap roll when stalling, I see no evidence of this ingame.

Cmon Manu, show you are not just a kid and lets see some complaints about some undermodelled allied planes for a change. (I dont hold out much hope looking at your sig, you gain as much respecxt for that as someone with 'HayateAce for President' in theirs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif)

Just to help you on your way a little and realise the 3rd Reich is NOT 'All that'...
You do know that Hitler didnt think much of the Italians and after the Desert Defeats in 1941 he wanted to team up with Britain and betray Italy?

------

'Britain could have put an end to the war at the beginning of 1941. In the skies over London she had demonstrated to all the world her will to resist, and on her credit side she had the humiliating defeats which she had inflicted on the Italians in North Africa. The traditional Britain would have made peace.'

'Peace then [With Britain], however, would have allowed us to prevent the Americans from meddling in European affairs. Under the guidance of the Reich, Europe would speedily have become unified... France and Italy, each defeated in turn at an interval of a few months by the two Germanic Powers, would have been well out of it. Both would have had to renounce their inappropriate aspirations to greatness'

'As for Britain, relieved of all European cares, she could have devoted herself to the wellbeing of her Empire. And lastly, Germany, her rear secure, could have thrown herself heart and soul into her essential task, the ambition of my life and the raison d'être of National Socialism - the destruction of Bolshevism. This would have entailed the conquest of wide spaces in the East, and these in their turn would have ensured the future wellbeing of the German people.'

'My attitude towards Italy a mistake - The Italian alliance a hindrance almost everywhere - We miss the political bus as regards Islam - Shameful defeats of the Italians - Italy will have contributed to our losing the war - Life does not forgive weakness'

ADOLF HITLER


ON TOPIC :-

Great story Alex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have 'The Big Show' but I dont remember this story'

DIRTY-MAC
12-08-2007, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And Americans don't care for Clusterman. Apparently he was somewhat of a completely average pilot. Robert S. Johnson would have never fallen for that move.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really stupid and really childish
and very disrespectfull.
and untrue
grow up for gods sake

HuninMunin
12-08-2007, 01:29 PM
Xio you can't possibly say that the 190 doesnt snap.
You don't see it because most 190 jocks are Experten.

Brain32
12-08-2007, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Xio you can't possibly say that the 190 doesnt snap.
You don't see it because most 190 jocks are Experten.
No, he does not see it being a British Hayate Ace http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
12-08-2007, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Xio you can't possibly say that the 190 doesnt snap.
You don't see it because most 190 jocks are Experten.

I fly the FW190 more than any other type, it doesnt have a 'violent snap roll' its basically the same as the Tempest.

It used to be much worse.

HuninMunin
12-08-2007, 01:37 PM
Yes it's easier to avoid now I agree.
But if I recall correctly that came with the new stick input routine.
You can snap roll it very fast; saved meh bottom more then one time.

jarkko2004
12-08-2007, 01:40 PM
My version of the "Le grand cirque" dates back to 1961 and I can not find that airbattle from it.

RegRag1977
12-08-2007, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by jarkko2004:
My version of the "Le grand cirque" dates back to 1961 and I can not find that airbattle from it.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Clostermann updated his book in 2000 with a new edition of Le grand Cirque.

Haigotron
12-08-2007, 02:20 PM
Same for me, I have an old version of Le grand cirque...and I can't find that air battle... I will need to get the newer version, since I loved that book!

luftluuver
12-08-2007, 02:52 PM
from a thread http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=9151&highlight=Clostermann

French magazine LE FANA DE L´AVIATION from December 2001. There is a letter of Clostermann remembering the events of 21 APRIL 1945 ( page 21 ). Apparently he tried to discover the identity of the pilot who shot him down writing to the Gemeinschaft der Jagdflieger. This is HIS own account on the magazine ( of course translated to the English by myself ):

" Dontermann leading seven Fw 190 D-9 from I/JG 26 surprised six Tempest V. He attacked alone with Soffing covering. He immediately shot down Filmstar Red 2 ( F/L Mackenzie-Intyre ) and Red 4 ( F/Sgt Staines - who was a pilot on loan from 33 Squadron ) and dived on the deck. I ( Clostermann describing ) dived down behind him on the limit of the VNE, but he got me in 2"tempo" and 3 mouvements. Too low to bail out I landed my plane with the wheels down. A part the propellers and flaps the Tempest was intact. It was my 2nd Tempest from 3 I have flown and it had only 23 flying hours. It was sent to AMU at B-58 Bruxelles on the 17th May 1945, then transferred to Bristol Aero Co. of Banwell, stocked and sold to the Egyptians. Clostermann says he saw the same airplane at B-58 on the 20th May. It was hit by two 20mm shells. One of those shells had hit the spark plug link for the 6 upper cylinders on the left side of the engine and the other hit the oil reservoir.
Werner Molge confirmed to Clostermann that on his report, Dontermann wrote that his 3rd victim had landed near the Dummersee and that it had the letters JF-L and that his propeller hub was RED. My ( Clostermann saying ) aircraft indeed had a propeller hub red and the letters JF-L could have been misdjuged with a JF-E with mud on its sides.
It seems that Clostermann advised the other pilots on his formation to let the D-9 to him, saying: "Let it to me, it is a piece of cake". This sentence was later put on the Mess, when he returned home and it was a case of much fun to everybody...
I also read that the D-9 pilot dived on the Tempest while he was getting out. Clostermann believed he was going to be machine gunned, but the Dora 9 pilot waved his wings in a GENTLEMAN act and went home. This is on an interview Clostermann gave to some Brazilian people ( it is in Portuguese ). It was his last interview before he passed away.

The problem here is Clostermann crash landed on Apr 20 1945. His a/c NV994, JF-E was a CatB and ended up being converted to a 2 seat trainer.

s for the combat reported in the Le Fana letter - it seems to have more in common with that on 12 April when Dortenmann claimed 2 Tempests and Soffing claimed another. The RAF unit involved was 33 Sqn and they lost two Tempests and had a third badly damaged (it was eventually scrapped). One of the two downed Tempests was flown by Sgt J.Staines, who was killed (so he can hardly have been loaned to 3 Sqn on 21 April!).

F/L MacKenzie-Intyre" seems to be a bizarre mix of Flt Lt B.C.McKenzie who was killed on 21 April leading a 3 Sqn formation (Clostermann was not with him) and Flt Lt A.G.McIntyre who had flown with Clostermann on the 20 April sortie.

Manu-6S
12-08-2007, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
OFF TOPIC:-

SHOCK HORROR.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Your beloved FW190's were known for their violent snap roll when stalling, I see no evidence of this ingame.



True, but no FW190's pilot pulls so much stick to make it stall... pulling stick = losing tons of energy. As Munin said, many FW190s are driven by experts...

And of course, the new stick's input control made it easier.



Cmon Manu, show you are not just a kid and lets see some complaints about some undermodelled allied planes for a change. (I dont hold out much hope looking at your sig, you gain as much respecxt for that as someone with 'HayateAce for President' in theirs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif)


Tempest's rearview is horrible... I'm not used to say other because honestly I don't find the reasons... the THINGS are quite clear (wanted or not).



Just to help you on your way a little and realise the 3rd Reich is NOT 'All that'...
You do know that Hitler didnt think much of the Italians and after the Desert Defeats in 1941 he wanted to team up with Britain and betray Italy?


Mhm... seriously I don't care about that... I don't like fascism at all. I have no particular interest in the "Great Germany" or in their wonder machines...

I'm interested in every warbird of the ETO.. and me, like Brain I think, only would to see realistic things in the game... in the past spins were terrible, now recovers are not only easy, but automatic for some planes... I really don't trust that for a plane who weights more than 4 tons...

Divine-Wind
12-08-2007, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Clostermann didn't care for Americans.

And Americans don't care for Clusterman. Apparently he was somewhat of a completely average pilot. Robert S. Johnson would have never fallen for that move.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You, my good sir, win the 'Biggest Bunghole of the Month' award. To collect your prize find the nearest steel wall and repeatedly smash your cranium into it.

That said, thanks for sharing this story. Interesting, and it reads like a lot of my engagements, so I can identify with it quite a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif That part at the end where the other pilot rocks his wings in a bit of a salute is something I notice in many stories. Even in such tough times it seems many pilots on both sides still retained their honor.

ViktorViktor
12-09-2007, 02:52 AM
RegRagg1977 wrote

Clostermann did care for american pilots: in his book, if you read it before posting, you will notice about his admiration for a damaged bomber crew and pilots that he escorted against FW.

In his book he speaks about his respect for one of his friend, the talented american ace Gabriel "Gaby" Gabreski, famous and gifted P47 ace pilot. He said that he could not imagine being so succesful with such a Monster plane, and precised that for Gabreski, it seemed to be like riding a bicycle!

Another of his friend was Christian Champan, another american pilot, that volonteered in 41 with the free french air force. The man was later minister in US embassy in Paris, and was decorated Officier de la Légion d'Honneur (highest distinction, very and rare for non french people) by president Pompidou himself in 1970 during his travel in the US...

There are lots of other examples, like his description of the impressive arrival of the USAF 56th fighter squadron at Biggin Hill (he speaks about perfect formation, meeting breaks, perfect landings...)

So just read the book! May be you'll change your mind...


RegRagg, I read the book 2 years ago and you should have realized this if you read my initial post. Surely you must have read it ?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My conclusion that Clostermann didn't care for Americans is a generalization and is based upon the negative comments in his book concerning Americans - these are in fact the most negative comments I have ever read by an aviator concerning American aviators during WW II.

Here are some examples from the book:

'There was one point on which all fighter pilots were agreed, whether British, French or Polish: the obivious superiority of the surviving Luftwaffe pilots in 1944 and 1945. The Americans, as always, considered themselves the best. But the kills they claimed for their P-51s and P-47s and the numbers of Messerschmitts 109s supposedly downed by B-17s and B-24s were the stuff of Hollywood movies, outlandish and ridculous. We were amused by their naivetè, as were most likely the Luftwaffe. We realised, of course, that this was for public consumption back in the States: the authorities dared release only partial statistics of losses, thereby strengthening the national conviction of superiority.'

'We made a half-turn, came across a flight from 56 squadron escroting some Typhoons and were then attacked by a band of crazy American Mustang p-51s. Where did these dangerous luatics come from ? Before we knew where we were, they had shot down Flt. Lt. Green of 56. We shook them off with superior speed, but the telelphone line to the U.S. HQ in Brussels that day was red hot.

We learned that these idiots who had no right to be in our sector had also brought down two Tykphoons, the pilots of which let it be known that they'd fire on the first P-51 that crossed their path. When would they learn to identify allied aircraft?'

In addition, IMO he gave Fairbanks, an American Tempest squadmate and ace, rather backhanded compliments when describing this man's appearance and his combat tactics.

And yes, he does say positive things about some Americans - but in your examples I notice that these fellows have very obvious European roots. Clostermanne generally seems pro-Europe and anti-American.

By the way, please don't accuse me of being anti-American, I merely pointed out something about Clostermann's narrative which made it unique in comparison with other fighter pilot memoirs I have read. He seems to have admired Luftwaffe pilots while disdaining Americans, despite the fact that he flew for the Allies and received his engineering degree from a California university.

So you see, I have read the book (and in order to find my examples I skimmed over about 50 pages in the vicinity of the 'piece of cake' chapter). I suppose if we both sat down and perused the book thoroughly, we could each come up with more examples of our opinions, but I maintain that my generalization is a valid one.

Manu-6S
12-09-2007, 03:32 AM
@ViktorViktor:

I'm just reading "Wing Leader" and when I got it by my hands for the first I read a random page: there he was ribbing the kill's claims made by americans.

I think that these anti-american sentiments of both british and german pilots was due in part by their imaginary numbers and the their lack of cavalry that the two european nations were used to have between themself (speaking of air forces here).

However I wonder why this episode was cutted in the first release...

WOLFMondo
12-09-2007, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:


However I wonder why this episode was cutted in the first release...

He tells you why in the introduction to the new version of the bookhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Manu-6S
12-09-2007, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
He tells you why in the introduction to the new version of the bookhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Roger that!

How many chapters are been added?

Clipper_51
12-09-2007, 05:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
RegRagg1977 wrote
In addition, IMO he gave Fairbanks, an American Tempest squadmate and ace, rather backhanded compliments when describing this man's appearance and his combat tactics.


Doesn't say much about his ability to judge air combat skills, considering Fairbanks, an American, was the top-scoring Tempest ace of WWII.

luftluuver
12-09-2007, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
RegRagg1977 wrote
In addition, IMO he gave Fairbanks, an American Tempest squadmate and ace, rather backhanded compliments when describing this man's appearance and his combat tactics.


Doesn't say much about his ability to judge air combat skills, considering Fairbanks, an American, was the top-scoring Typhoon ace of WWII. S/L Fairbanks was a Tempest ace with 11 or 12. The top Typhoon ace was G/C J.R. Baldwin with 15.

RegRag1977
12-09-2007, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
RegRagg1977 wrote
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Clostermann did care for american pilots: in his book, if you read it before posting, you will notice about his admiration for a damaged bomber crew and pilots that he escorted against FW.

In his book he speaks about his respect for one of his friend, the talented american ace Gabriel "Gaby" Gabreski, famous and gifted P47 ace pilot. He said that he could not imagine being so succesful with such a Monster plane, and precised that for Gabreski, it seemed to be like riding a bicycle!

Another of his friend was Christian Champan, another american pilot, that volonteered in 41 with the free french air force. The man was later minister in US embassy in Paris, and was decorated Officier de la Légion d'Honneur (highest distinction, very and rare for non french people) by president Pompidou himself in 1970 during his travel in the US...

There are lots of other examples, like his description of the impressive arrival of the USAF 56th fighter squadron at Biggin Hill (he speaks about perfect formation, meeting breaks, perfect landings...)

So just read the book! May be you'll change your mind...


RegRagg, I read the book 2 years ago and you should have realized this if you read my initial post. Surely you must have read it ?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My conclusion that Clostermann didn't care for Americans is a generalization and is based upon the negative comments in his book concerning Americans - these are in fact the most negative comments I have ever read by an aviator concerning American aviators during WW II.

Here are some examples from the book:

'There was one point on which all fighter pilots were agreed, whether British, French or Polish: the obivious superiority of the surviving Luftwaffe pilots in 1944 and 1945. The Americans, as always, considered themselves the best. But the kills they claimed for their P-51s and P-47s and the numbers of Messerschmitts 109s supposedly downed by B-17s and B-24s were the stuff of Hollywood movies, outlandish and ridculous. We were amused by their naivetè, as were most likely the Luftwaffe. We realised, of course, that this was for public consumption back in the States: the authorities dared release only partial statistics of losses, thereby strengthening the national conviction of superiority.'

'We made a half-turn, came across a flight from 56 squadron escroting some Typhoons and were then attacked by a band of crazy American Mustang p-51s. Where did these dangerous luatics come from ? Before we knew where we were, they had shot down Flt. Lt. Green of 56. We shook them off with superior speed, but the telelphone line to the U.S. HQ in Brussels that day was red hot.

We learned that these idiots who had no right to be in our sector had also brought down two Tykphoons, the pilots of which let it be known that they'd fire on the first P-51 that crossed their path. When would they learn to identify allied aircraft?'

In addition, IMO he gave Fairbanks, an American Tempest squadmate and ace, rather backhanded compliments when describing this man's appearance and his combat tactics.

And yes, he does say positive things about some Americans - but in your examples I notice that these fellows have very obvious European roots. Clostermanne generally seems pro-Europe and anti-American.

By the way, please don't accuse me of being anti-American, I merely pointed out something about Clostermann's narrative which made it unique in comparison with other fighter pilot memoirs I have read. He seems to have admired Luftwaffe pilots while disdaining Americans, despite the fact that he flew for the Allies and received his engineering degree from a California university.

So you see, I have read the book (and in order to find my examples I skimmed over about 50 pages in the vicinity of the 'piece of cake' chapter). I suppose if we both sat down and perused the book thoroughly, we could each come up with more examples of our opinions, but I maintain that my generalization is a valid one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apologizes, mate. Yes i can see you have a good knowledge of the book. I was wrong to think that you didn't read it.

I think that Clostermann was against the american foreign policy, that he thought was wanting the fall of Europe as a power. He didn't want France and the other countries (including Germany, his cousin was german BF109 pilot IIRC) he liked to be under the USA domination after the war. He was a fervent supporter of de Gaulle, so i think you're not too wrong to say he was anti american.

But what i wanted to say was that he was above all against the USA foreign policy, not against the soldiers that were fighting against nazi Germany, even if he gives examples of some US airmen dismeanors (remember the part about the US bomber gunners claims). About the Typhoons being shot down because of mis identification, Clostermann himself reports how the looked like the FW, and even how he once shot at one, and luckily missed it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ViktorViktor
12-09-2007, 06:48 AM
Hi RegRagg -
I just googled Pierre Clostermann and found out that Clostermann was a vice-president of Cessna (an American aircraft manufacturer).
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

So you had a good point as well !

Cheers

Clipper_51
12-09-2007, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Hi RegRagg -
I just googled Pierre Clostermann and found out that Clostermann was a vice-president of Cessna (an American aircraft manufacturer).
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

So you had a good point as well !

I see he had no problem with getting rich on US dollars. Bet he had a nice golden parachute at the end of his career so he could retire back to France and gripe about US cowboys

Cheers

R_Target
12-09-2007, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
from a thread http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=9151&highlight=Clostermann


The points raised in that thread make Clostermann's story appear to be a complete fabrication.

DIRTY-MAC
12-09-2007, 07:58 AM
oh please... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Arent you guys reading a bit to much into this
read it through again and think about it...

Wepps
12-09-2007, 08:08 AM
This was a typical occurrence in the Air War.

If you read Panzer Leader, Guderian recounts on many occasions the Luftwaffe bombing him off the road, or his troops...failing to provide adequate air superiority causing his air transport to be shot up, the airfield he just landed on bombed...

The important thing to know is that in war, you don't get the IFF indicators we do in IL-2 if you have them turned on. Mistakes happen. They still happen...we bomb our own troops occasionally.

It's obvious his opinion of American pilots wasn't based on experience but on bias.

BfHeFwMe
12-09-2007, 09:17 AM
Experts? or is it just gaming training wheels?

Simulated stick forces = safety training wheels

Remember, Only you and your training wheels can prevent stalls!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

luftluuver
12-09-2007, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
The points raised in that thread make Clostermann's story appear to be a complete fabrication. No, the Frenchman was shotdown, just the details are a wee bit confused.

DmdSeeker
12-09-2007, 11:25 AM
If I recall from the book correctly, prewar he was studying in America while his father was I believe something to do with the French Embassy.

He left the safety of the US to volunteer as a frenchman for the RAF.

And I belueve he spent quite some time in the US post war.

So taking a few lines from his boók regarding Americans in unfavourable circumstances is hardy a valid analysis of his feelings towards America or Americans.

Unless of course you're a total tosser.

Like Bandit.

R_Target
12-09-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
No, the Frenchman was shotdown, just the details are a wee bit confused.

Well, I guess the shot-down part sounds plausible enough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Jaws2002
12-09-2007, 06:04 PM
Amazing how some people here can take a great piece of WW2 aviation reading and turn it into a stupid political discussion, dissecting the literature into tiny pieces of debate fuel.

Honestly, This is really low guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

This was supposed to be some nice aviation reading, not fuel for the never ending Zoo-mudfights.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

DIRTY-MAC
12-10-2007, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Amazing how some people here can take a great piece of WW2 aviation reading and turn it into a stupid political discussion, dissecting the literature into tiny pieces of debate fuel.

Honestly, This is really low guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

This was supposed to be some nice aviation reading, not fuel for the never ending Zoo-mudfights.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

BaronUnderpants
12-10-2007, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Amazing how some people here can take a great piece of WW2 aviation reading and turn it into a stupid political discussion, dissecting the literature into tiny pieces of debate fuel.

Honestly, This is really low guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

This was supposed to be some nice aviation reading, not fuel for the never ending Zoo-mudfights.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 07:11 AM
+ 3

waffen-79
12-10-2007, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
Hey guys, is there a compilation of 'Last Words' for pilots?

tis no really off-topic

hate to quote myself, but noone else noticed, I ask again, anyone knows of a compilation of Famous "last words" for pilots

I already goggled it and nothing

regards

Schwarz.13
12-10-2007, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
Hey guys, is there a compilation of 'Last Words' for pilots?

tis no really off-topic

hate to quote myself, but noone else noticed, I ask again, anyone knows of a compilation of Famous "last words" for pilots

I already goggled it and nothing

regards </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1.) "Oh Sh1t!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

DIRTY-MAC
12-10-2007, 09:02 AM
There is at least one in The Big Show, someone who flew with Pierre,
I think it was something like "Ive´d had it, Im going down" then the poor guy crashes... anyone remember this?

and wasn´t it also one squadron leader who said "Im alone" before he got shot down?

Divine-Wind
12-10-2007, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
Hey guys, is there a compilation of 'Last Words' for pilots?

tis no really off-topic

hate to quote myself, but noone else noticed, I ask again, anyone knows of a compilation of Famous "last words" for pilots

I already goggled it and nothing

regards </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1.) "Oh Sh1t!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
2.) "What happens when I push this button?"

RegRag1977
12-10-2007, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
There is at least one in The Big Show, someone who flew with Pierre,
I think it was something like "Ive´d had it, Im going down" then the poor guy crashes... anyone remember this?

and wasn´t it also one squadron leader who said "Im alone" before he got shot down?

It was a pilot called Jimmy (?), He was Closterman N?2 IIRC. He called for help, saying he was alone.
When the fight against the FW was over, Clostermann met a lone damaged Spitfire immatriculated LOS with it's pilot bend over the controls, unconscious. As the spit went in a slow dive, Clostermann called him at the radio to wake him up, but he was probably dead already when he hit the ground. Clostermann said how there were tears running down his nose as he headed back to his home base. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

joeap
12-10-2007, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:


Just to help you on your way a little and realise the 3rd Reich is NOT 'All that'...
You do know that Hitler didnt think much of the Italians and after the Desert Defeats in 1941 he wanted to team up with Britain and betray Italy?

------

'Britain could have put an end to the war at the beginning of 1941. ... lots of blah blah - Life does not forgive weakness'

ADOLF HITLER


ON TOPIC :-

Great story Alex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have 'The Big Show' but I dont remember this story'

Gotta get that book myself, BTW Xio I didn't get to respond cause the thread was locked but I am pretty sure that "Testament" you quote from is a forgery. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Anyway I am an admirer of Clostermann in any case.

ali19891989
12-10-2007, 11:06 AM
If you look in the book at the number of mentions in despatches and other citations concerning clostermann that should say enough. For me they speak volumes

FliegerAas
12-10-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
[...]

This was supposed to be some nice aviation reading, not fuel for the never ending Zoo-mudfights.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I like mudfights when beautiful girls with small bikinis are involved. However,I don't even dare to imagine what it would look like when our forum members would team up for a mudfight wearing small bikinis... That would be hairy I think... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

waffen-79
12-10-2007, 01:35 PM
thanks guys, not hijacking or anything

I meant to look for a list or find a list, with no comical intension but for the pourposes the RAF design it, to warn pilots

so we have:

Famous Last Words for pilots

1. Oh Sh1t
2. I'm alone
3. Ive´d had it, Im going down
4. What happens when I push this button?
5. What is that?
6. Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!

I will continue this later on another thread

thanks again

biggs222
12-10-2007, 01:47 PM
i wonder if the outcome would have been the same if he was flying a Spitfire mkXIV.

just wondering.

stathem
12-10-2007, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by biggs222:
i wonder if the outcome would have been the same if he was flying a Spitfire mkXIV.

just wondering.

I know what you mean but I think this was more of a case of lose the sight, lose the fight.

He took his eye off the ball, being over-confident, and got punished for it.

CUJO_1970
12-10-2007, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by biggs222:
i wonder if the outcome would have been the same if he was flying a Spitfire mkXIV.

just wondering.

Yes, it would have been different.

For example, the German pilot would have had to report the destruction of a Spitfire XIV instead of a Tempest when he got back to base.

Schwarz.13
12-10-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
1. Oh Sh1t
2. I'm alone
3. Ive´d had it, Im going down
4. What happens when I push this button?
5. What is that?
6. Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!


7.) "These are my last words" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Bremspropeller
12-10-2007, 04:14 PM
0.) Hey, watch this!

biggs222
12-10-2007, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:

Yes, it would have been different.

For example, the German pilot would have had to report the destruction of a Spitfire XIV instead of a Tempest when he got back to base.

ha ha...

probably wouldnt have stalled out to begin with.

Xiolablu3
12-10-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
... lots of blah blah BTW Xio I didn't get to respond cause the thread was locked but I am pretty sure that "Testament" you quote from is a forgery. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




Its not, its from the Hitler-Bormann Documents which he collated in the bunker in Feb to April 1945.

They are used in discussions at various universities such as Leicester UK :-

http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/centres/burton/resources.html

'Primary Sources used :- Genoud, (ed) The Testament of Adolf Hitler, The Hitler Borman Documents, (London, 1962)'

You can buy it on Amazon :-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/testament-Adolf-Hitler-Hitler-B...-April/dp/B0000CKWW3 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/testament-Adolf-Hitler-Hitler-Bormann-February-April/dp/B0000CKWW3)


I can PM you the link if you want, but I had better not post it here.

Xiolablu3
12-10-2007, 06:16 PM
Sorry for OT post, if anyone else wants to talk about this document (if you have info/evidence about it) pls PM me rtaher than hijack this thread :-


Here you go, I found a place you can download it and read for yourself.

http://www.archive.org/details/PoliticalTestamentOfAdolfHitler

Download link is on the left, quite small and hard to see, choose PDF.

slarsson
12-11-2007, 02:14 PM
"Hey guys, is there a compilation of 'Last Words' for pilots?"

One airline co-pilot to his pilot: "Geez, I don't like the look of that massive cumulonimbus we're heading into."
Pilot: "Me neither. Let's do a 360 and get out of here............"