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Yimmy
02-21-2005, 08:45 PM
Sorry if this comes across as a long ramble, im tierd.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have had PF since Christmas, and IL2 FB + AEP for only a few weeks. From the very start I have always been better at ground pounding than dog fighting - my taking the time to practice first skip bombing against ships, then bombing via shallow fast dives from moderate altitude, then dive bombing from a good height, and recently I have tried my hand at level bombing from height.

My mini self praise over, I can't dogfight to save my life so help! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
My only real luck online has been either been in a Ki43C, or a Val once I have dropped my bombs. In both cases, its down to waiting for the attacker to make a mistake, and accelerating hard cutting their corner and chipping away at them until they lose control and crash.
Obviously this is no good for bomber escort or even offensive patrols, due to it always being them who decide when to attack and when to avoid me.

Now, to make for some variety from ground pounding I have been trying out the F6F5 in air-air. In general, I get height, and whenever I see a Zeke I dive on it, shoot, miss, and finally claw back some altitude. Now, going past the fact that I have to practice deflection shooting at planes taking evasive action, I find that slowly my energy bleeds away with each zoom dive and zoom climb I make - until eventually the zero can accelerate to cut a verticle corner of mine and finish me in much the same way I did in the past.
Of course, I could always out run a Zeke, but the same can not be said for all enemy aircraft.

All this bleeding energy got me thinking, what plane should I choose that I would find easiest at this? Obviously, altitude leads to potential energy - hence why everyone says you should enter a fight with a height advantage - so a good rate of climb is needed. As energy bleeds away, I guess the next most important aspect would be power to weight ratio, to give good acceleration so that you can regain energy in the form of speed, and potential energy by zoom climbs. However, by that reckoning, I compare an F6F with a Zeke and find that the Zeke has the better rate of climb and the better power to weight ratio - yet it is the F6F which is the energy fighter. Ergo I conclude that the aspoect I am missing is total top speed, the Zeke being considerably slower, and speed being kinetic energy.

So, going by my above thoughts, the F6F has a limited window with which to kill the Zeke in, the extent of the window depending on its height advantage at the start of the fight - as although the F6F has a higher max energy state due to its speed advantage, the Zeke has the faster ability to gain energy by its fast climb and acceleration. If the F6F does not destroy the Zeke in its window, it will lose the energy advantage, and can not compete in a turn fight and will die.

Does that make sense or am I talking out of my ****?

I would appreciate any little tips concerning energy fighting, and any planes you would suggest I try.....

Yimmy
02-21-2005, 08:45 PM
Sorry if this comes across as a long ramble, im tierd.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have had PF since Christmas, and IL2 FB + AEP for only a few weeks. From the very start I have always been better at ground pounding than dog fighting - my taking the time to practice first skip bombing against ships, then bombing via shallow fast dives from moderate altitude, then dive bombing from a good height, and recently I have tried my hand at level bombing from height.

My mini self praise over, I can't dogfight to save my life so help! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
My only real luck online has been either been in a Ki43C, or a Val once I have dropped my bombs. In both cases, its down to waiting for the attacker to make a mistake, and accelerating hard cutting their corner and chipping away at them until they lose control and crash.
Obviously this is no good for bomber escort or even offensive patrols, due to it always being them who decide when to attack and when to avoid me.

Now, to make for some variety from ground pounding I have been trying out the F6F5 in air-air. In general, I get height, and whenever I see a Zeke I dive on it, shoot, miss, and finally claw back some altitude. Now, going past the fact that I have to practice deflection shooting at planes taking evasive action, I find that slowly my energy bleeds away with each zoom dive and zoom climb I make - until eventually the zero can accelerate to cut a verticle corner of mine and finish me in much the same way I did in the past.
Of course, I could always out run a Zeke, but the same can not be said for all enemy aircraft.

All this bleeding energy got me thinking, what plane should I choose that I would find easiest at this? Obviously, altitude leads to potential energy - hence why everyone says you should enter a fight with a height advantage - so a good rate of climb is needed. As energy bleeds away, I guess the next most important aspect would be power to weight ratio, to give good acceleration so that you can regain energy in the form of speed, and potential energy by zoom climbs. However, by that reckoning, I compare an F6F with a Zeke and find that the Zeke has the better rate of climb and the better power to weight ratio - yet it is the F6F which is the energy fighter. Ergo I conclude that the aspoect I am missing is total top speed, the Zeke being considerably slower, and speed being kinetic energy.

So, going by my above thoughts, the F6F has a limited window with which to kill the Zeke in, the extent of the window depending on its height advantage at the start of the fight - as although the F6F has a higher max energy state due to its speed advantage, the Zeke has the faster ability to gain energy by its fast climb and acceleration. If the F6F does not destroy the Zeke in its window, it will lose the energy advantage, and can not compete in a turn fight and will die.

Does that make sense or am I talking out of my ****?

I would appreciate any little tips concerning energy fighting, and any planes you would suggest I try.....

Badsight.
02-21-2005, 09:27 PM
you can be very low & have excellent Energy

you can be very high & have poor Energy

we are talking about Combat manouvers here , rather than Physics

BaldieJr
02-21-2005, 09:28 PM
or you can be really high and not care about energy.

VW-IceFire
02-21-2005, 09:40 PM
Excellent post. This is what we need to talk about more....not why so and so can't beat a particular plane everyday all the time. But I digress.

I think you have a valid point. You seem to loose energy conducting the BNZ attacks and then you run out and the enemy gets the advantage.

What happens when its two similar aircraft...FW190 and Hellcat for instance. Both rely on energy tactics to beat the enemy...one has a superior turn but the other makes up for it with some more speed and roll rate (and firepower) so its similar in the way that you approach your enemy. If they are to fight, then how is one to win and one to loose?

Its tough. Its difficult.

I guess the thing is that you need a team effort. While you boom, he's up high watching. When your zooming, he's booming and you're watching him. So few pilots grasp this but its effective when you see it working.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
02-21-2005, 10:15 PM
the tactics of the boom and zoomer can be a very lonely experience online with out a wing man to chat to as the kill rate tends to be more limited due to the fact that you spend some of your time gaining that precious altitude and more time trying to locate a suitable target. That said a kill obtained in this manner can be very satisfying compared to the frustraion of the low level skirmishes that are the trade mark of most online dogfight servers. Not to mention the pot luck approach of the head on attack.

It realy does depend on the kind of 'sport' your looking for but as a rule down low you will tend to find the air quake jocks and their happy go lucky (or not so happy in some cases) 'oh well back to the drawing board' approach. Up top you tend to find the more'fly like I am only gona get one shot at it' text book junkies. Both have there merrits and I have yet to decide which I prefer.

As always it boils down to the one thing you have here that they did not have in the real world. The ability to learn from your mistakes its up to you if you choose to.

Fehler
02-22-2005, 06:10 AM
Yimmy, I think your assessment is very good with one exception in the F6F - A6M engagement you make note of. The F6F is a better zoom climber than the Zeke, but the Zeke can climb at a higher AoA because of wingloading.

Thus, the situation is very similar to an early Spit - 190 engagement.

There are a lot of things to factor in, but lets say you are starting at an altitude advantage in the F6F. I would prefer an extension after the dive followed by a zoom so the Zeke could not bring guns to bear on you. You will save more energy as well for when you enter your zoom climb and be at a distance safe enough to perform a hammerhead or even extend to create separation. With that separation, you can use your level speed advantage to regain energy while the Zero will burn more E trying to follow you in a climb using a higher AoA.

What you describe is classic energy fighting, but the trick to good energy fighting is making a good observation of the enemy's energy state with respect to yours, and using your advantages when those states become equal.

In your example, the F6F can always determine when to enter and exit the engagement because of his speed advantage. The Zeke pilot has to depend on snap shots and the hopes that the F6F pilot will make mistakes.

Sometimes it is not as handsome to extend away and regroup, but it may in fact be prudent.

If you are losing your energy advantage in the engagement you describe in a very short time frame, I would be willing to bet that you are electing to make tight transitions from the dive into the vertical, thus effectively losing more E during the transition than you will regain in the zoom climb. This was a mistake I made continuously when I first started learning the FW190.

Also, when possible, coordinate your attack so that your extension and subsequent zoom climb will be into the sun. This really works well in game against human opposition. Once stealth is given up (You missed on your first attack run) the T&B pilot will force you to bleed energy during your subsequent attack(s) by making tight turns when you come into gun range. If you fall for this, he can get the upper hand rather quickly. You have a better chance of breaking his tracking on you by using the sun to your advantage.

A method that Adolf Galland liked to use was attacking in the zoom and not the dive. He would dive under his target and strike at the belly of his victim while climbing back into a position of comfort where he could repeat the process if necessary.

This also works well on humans (Full cockpit arenas) because they will have to turn and/or climb to acquire you while you are at their low 6. This bleeds a little E for them while oyu maintain your advantage going into a zoom.

Give those ideas a try and see what you think. And really practice your shooting so you wont have to worry about a second or third attack run.

A great plane to try is the Spit. It is really a "Do everything well" plane. Against most, it is faster, climbs as well if not better, and bleeds very little in tight maneuvers. It also turn pretty well in case you get caught in a turn fight, but it shines in the vertical! Give that plane a try and see what you think.

Yimmy
02-22-2005, 07:56 AM
Thanks for the post, very informative.

Dunno about the Spit though, I find flying it a little jaded given that, well, everybody flies it!
I was thinking I would give the P38, and maybe the Lagg 3IT a go.

Edit:

"The F6F is a better zoom climber than the Zeke, but the Zeke can climb at a higher AoA because of wingloading."

So, going by Hardballs aircraft viewer, what sats mean zoom climb, and which mean extended climb? Extended climb = a low weight to wing area, and zoom climb = ?

dieg777
02-22-2005, 08:53 AM
there is excellent info on energy fighting using the fw 190 as example here

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

and a lot of good links here

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

under air to air

good luck

Holycannoli
02-22-2005, 09:07 AM
've personally been trying to fly more realistic than video game. That is, attack when you see an advantage, and run when you see disadvantage.

I like to fly high, spot a bomber and his escort, dive in and take out the bomber and as many escorts as I can, and then get the heck out of there (cuz I'm usually way outnumbered).

As a result, I get called a coward a lot and then get made fun of because of my plane choice (hey, if you want ALL planes flyable be prepared to eat Ki-84-lc cannon!).

Anyway, my dogfight skills are extremely low now that I gave up my twisty-stick rudder joystick for CH fighterstick/pro throttle/pro pedals setup. I just can't get used to the pedals; my joystick hand instinctively tries to twist the stick instead of my feet.

I'll get used to it though, and I might want to engage in dogfights then. But until that day I'm gonna fight how pilots really did. Not risking their lives for thrills or anything. Do what damage I can and head home.

Stiglr
02-22-2005, 12:51 PM
Don't give up on those pedals, Cannoli. You definitely did the right thing by getting off that twisty toy.

You *will* suck for a bit, while you rebuild your muscle memory, but it will be worth it. Flying with pedals is a much more immersive way to go.

For the original poster, you need to get ahold of Mouse Shaw's book, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. You can find it on Amazon.com. It's dry reading, but highly informative, and effective.

EJGr.Ost_chamel
02-22-2005, 01:30 PM
http://www.speakeasy.org/~mefletcher/energy.html

S!

Chamel

Yimmy
02-22-2005, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJGr.Ost_chamel:
http://www.speakeasy.org/~mefletcher/energy.html

S!

Chamel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers

karost
02-22-2005, 05:01 PM
I have my fun idea to share see this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://gungfu.com/pics_general/pics_swords/swords_chinese_9-ring-broadsword.jpg
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/graphics/w9.jpg

for 2000 years of chinese combat ,there have two popular basic weapons ...Sward and Spear

Sward is the weapon of the tiger. The shorter version was used by the common foot soldier with devastating effect on ground troops and mounted cavalry.

Spear is a direct and subtle weapon using only eight basic movements that can be transformed into hundreds of defensive and offensive techniques. Spear is known as the king of weapons

and it easy for you to match a core-idea which one match to energy combat and turning combat for (history) airwar combat ..... yes I belive you all can see a "core-idea" right ?


F6F is like FW190 to apply same tactic and if you apply a right tactic at the edge of advatage for positon and force, then you just stand on offensive to make a kill and your opponent just do as defensive only.

S~
reference site:
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/weapon.htm

civildog
02-22-2005, 10:10 PM
Holycannoli ......almost ALL the real aces fought that way, they were not stupid men and combat of any kind is brutally Darwinian in nature. In any kind of combat it really has to be settled fast or you need to be looking for way to get away. So it pays to make a good stalk.

Richtofen was a better shot than natural flyer so he would dive down on his target, take careful aim, and either kill it in a pass or climb away to try again without taking a shot. He could score hits from farther than most because of his marksmanship. Most of his kills never knew what happened.

Lufberry was the same way...he used the superior climbing ability of his planes to dive down, make a pass, and climb away.

Hartmann would always try to dive down on his target and make a single pass if he could. He's wait until he was so close till he fired that he often damaged his planes with debris. His first kill was shot up so close it killed his engine when debris smashed into his cowling resulting in a bail out later. He bailed out of his planes 12 times, but was never shot down...they were all because debris damaged his plane.

Otherwise Hartmann ran away as fast as he could and climbed to try again. In one fight he actually caused a flight of Lavochkins to be engaged by some Mustangs becasue he and his wingman tron down through the two formations and gunned down a Mustang. The US pilots turned on the La's, thinking they were Germans and the fight was on while Hartmann and his wingie flew off. Galland, Graf, Grislawski, Bong, Yeager, Cunningham (ok, he was in 'Nam, but that just shows the truth of the BnZ tactic as a valid one), Bader....they all used the same basic tactics: stalk the enemy, dive down on him, make a pass and then get the heck outta Dodge to either set up again or get away. There weren't many Hollywood style furballs in WW2. The few that there were proved the rule that "dogfighting" was a great way to get killed fast.

Speed is life, never be afraid to extend when you lose the advantage. And if the attack doesn't "feel" right before you do it, then don't. Try something else. But if you start the attack, meaning the guns are a'blazing then either press it home or extend away.

Tully__
02-22-2005, 10:19 PM
There are a large number of good articles on tactics in simulations at SimHQ's air combat reference library (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html)