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View Full Version : Can anyone beat an AI ACE La-7 w/ K4 in QMB post 1.1b at same alt and advantage....!!!



XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:17 PM
If so please post a trak.

I could usually take down an ACE AI La-7 in K4 9 out of ten times pre patch but now I can't seem to be able to do it at all.

Not complaining but I need to know if it can be done and how so that I can readjust my tactics.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:17 PM
If so please post a trak.

I could usually take down an ACE AI La-7 in K4 9 out of ten times pre patch but now I can't seem to be able to do it at all.

Not complaining but I need to know if it can be done and how so that I can readjust my tactics.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:21 PM
I've done it with a G2 with the 20mm gondolas a few times...don't have a track though, but even if I did it wouldn't matter now that the track recording in FB is all fecked-up (for me anyway).

_____________________________________
Proud flyer of IL2 Forgotten Battles: The home of the first, and only fully Kevlar covered airplanes...the Lagg 3 and I16 Rata.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:22 PM
I'm going to check...

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:25 PM
Actually my pre-patch traks are the only ones messed. Any post 1.1b traks Ive made work fine.

Thanks for the replies and would greatly appreciate any traks showing this. I find watching others traks is the best way for me to learn.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:05 PM
Just did it with a G2 no Gundpods, got the track too. Hard bastard to beat though. In the vertical is death, had to dive to the deck in the first pass rather than gain altitude...this seemed to work a little better as he bled energy turning down low. K4 would be harder in this as one tends to be more committed to vertical fights. I would have used the K4 but I've never really got into it as much as the G2. Let me know if you want me to email the track.

_____________________________________
Proud flyer of IL2 Forgotten Battles: The home of the first, and only fully Kevlar covered airplanes...the Lagg 3 and I16 Rata.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:19 PM
Sure the more traks the better!





Message Edited on 08/23/0306:21PM by Charlie901

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:40 PM
No Prob Charlie,


I jumped in QMB, put myself in the k-4, got an ace la7 going. Both with 1/4 tank of gas. I left everything at default, so we were head to head at 1000 meters.


I nosed her down a hair to get some speed, hit the methanol at 500kmh, dodged the LAs first head on fire, went into a steep spiral climb and watched. He got within .6kilometer of me then when I saw him go to .61 I knew his E was gone and I went down and got him with a 90 degree deflection shot. With the mk108 it took one hit and he burned.


Oh! almost forgot, I set MY k4 to ace also. Maybe that is the answer. I don't fly the K4 or any of the late 109s online. I stick with the F4. The later Gs without meth aren't any quicker and don't handle as good, and the ones with meth are as reliable as a seventies american ford product. The engines go to hell if you don't baby them.



Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:43 PM
Advantage give you a slight alt. advantage, so it's not the same height.

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:45 PM
i keep saying people doing it with G2's but no has tried it with a K4 yet?

P4-2.4Gig
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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:47 PM
just sent ya one

<p align="center">http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters/images/419x100phantomfighters01.gif (http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters/default.asp)

http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters (http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters/)

http://phantomfighters.sqhq.net (http://phantomfighters.sqhq.net/)</p>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:48 PM
Jumoschwanz

Setting yourself for ace, would only affect your wingman.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:09 PM
charlie you know sht,only what a game programer wrote,go away !!!my grandfather help design f.i in 109,s in ww2,CLOWN

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:23 PM
AFJ_WDWMKR wrote:
- charlie you know sht,only what a game programer
- wrote,go away !!!my grandfather help design f.i in
- 109,s in ww2,CLOWN
-
-

That was helpful as well as quite informative!

W/ posts like this it makes me wonder why I let my Email address hang out there for all to see.

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 03:56 AM
Thanks for the info BuzzU.


But it was like this: When I point out something that is so obvious anyone above a vegatative idiot would already know about it, it is done in sarcastic humor. Didn't mean to shoot so high over your head. I'll dumb it down a bit next time.



Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:03 AM
Works in a P-39Q1,.... as long as you evoid gouing head-on.
Just climb as high as yu can before meeting him, and when he tries to climb to you, just dive on his 6.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
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A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 05:46 AM
Its very difficult with 100% fuel. I had to go vertical on the merge then quickly dive for the ground to confuse the AI, hehe. On the deck in a horizontal and vertical turning fight you could get in a killing deflection shot. I wouldn't recommend this method against a human pilot.

With 25% fuel, you could use the standard spiral climb until he bleeds his energy then drop and kill.

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:08 AM
AFJ_WDWMKR wrote:
- charlie you know sht,only what a game programer
- wrote,go away !!!my grandfather help design f.i in
- 109,s in ww2,CLOWN



This is the best post in the history of this board.





---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:27 AM
Damn, he spells worse than goat does.

Give the guy a medal or something, if you can decipher what he said.

<img src=http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/219643/GCS0705copy.JPG>

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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 12:57 PM
answer ... Bf 109s have had their performance lowered slightly

answer .... AI ACE level has been increased in skill slightly

i have coops with the AI set to ace & they are now a LOT harder to clear / finish

i dont have a problem turning with LA-7s at high speed in the late G or K Bf 109

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 01:28 PM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 01:34 PM
AFJ_WDWMKR wrote:
- charlie you know sht,only what a game programer
- wrote,go away !!!my grandfather help design f.i in
- 109,s in ww2,CLOWN



What I meant to say-------


Nothing like standing there, minding your own thing and having a piece of space junk hit you, hey charlie?



Widgeon

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 02:22 PM
Me in K4 vs 1 Ace Kozedub LA-7. Both 100% fuel, no advantage, 1000meters.


First arm the MW50 and trim your rudder, goto 110% power and start climbing, engaging a fighter that outturns and even outclimbs you (at lower alt's) at Co-E is asking for problems. So climb first and dope a rope him by going pure vertical instead of going into a merge, from there on it's easy sailing if you keep it vertical.

http://members.home.nl/j.hulleman/quick0037.ntrk





"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner no longer"

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 03:07 PM
Heya folks,

Yeah, that was pretty damn easy. Here is my track:

http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/dreyer_vs_LA7_QMB.zip

I used 25% fuel and I started down at 1000 meters. I don't know what fuel level the LA7 had because you can't set that. Nothing happens when I press the advanced setup button for the hostile slot. I'll try again with 100% fuel; I have no idea how much fuel level changes flight performance however.

Out skilled by far. Too bad a human player would rip me a new as$hole at CO-E.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 03:14 PM
You can set opposing fuel level

Mark

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 03:34 PM
That was a nice track kaiser. But first of all what kind of hardware are you using!? How the beep do you turn your pilot's head around 180 degree's?! My hatswitch can't do anything like that, I get very limited view angles. urk?!?

Yes mark suddenly it works now after I restarted IL2.

I tried again with 100% fuel, little or no difference in flight performance.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:03 PM
TrackIR, Linda Blair driver.

"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner no longer"

ZG77_Nagual
08-24-2003, 04:04 PM
I can beat four - cockpit on 4 ace la7s v 1 109kv.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:10 PM
You can set AI fuel in FMB. It works cos you see them climb more rapidly to higher waypoints when they are low on fuel. And in FMB you can set the aircraft to start equally and within a few meters of each other. I wish Oleg would dump QMB and make FMB easier for people to work with.

Anybody try La~7 against K4?

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:18 PM
Dreyer, I noticed you don't trim your rudder? The ball is way off center. For me, it messes up gunnery if I don't trim.

"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner no longer"

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:21 PM
I don't know how ;( Never bothered with it, why don't those lazy *** german mechanics do it for me?! Now that I think about it that is probably the reason why I'm such a crappy shot in the 109 and I saw you had some very nice accuracy in your track.

So you just use the rudder trim left and right until the ball is completely centered?

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:30 PM
If I start at 1000m I work my way up past 5000m pretty quickly,and shortly thereafter the La's dead.

ZG77_Nagual
08-24-2003, 04:36 PM
Charlie - how I do it offline (and I don't, as a rule - fly the 109s - never liked em - of them I prefer the g6as however or g2) shallow wep dive turing closure - build to 600+k (640-650 ideally,or faster) climb through the las - in a vertical zoom - keep your angles so they have to loose speed tracking your (slow spiral) start your dive from the zoom at about 240 and aim for the furthest la that is closing - you'll get more vertical as he closes - speed is thing #1 - shoot very short bursts from very close. Also - k4 will hang on it's prop longer (slower) than the la - hopefully you won't need that advantage - but it's there. Be patient - stay in the vertical and shoot from very close.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:42 PM
Posted by Jumoschwanz: "I set MY k4 to ace also."

Irrelevant. The skill settings apply to the other aircraft in your own flight, not to your plane...youre supposed to fly that one!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 05:20 PM
Both of your track posters - good shooting!

Naqual - post link to your ntrk please.

Dreyer - noticed rudder trim needed - but what the heck you did ok without it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Kaiser - when you climb to vertical you chop throttle at the top - why? do you turn the plane over quicker? I'm keen to learn form you sharpshooters.

Mark

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 05:35 PM
- Dreyer - noticed rudder trim needed - but what the
- heck you did ok without it

lol yeah, well I'll start using it now. I'll make me a better shot I guess.

- Kaiser - when you climb to vertical you chop
- throttle at the top - why? do you turn the plane
- over quicker? I'm keen to learn form you
- sharpshooters.

Think cutting throttle enables you to turn faster...

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 05:57 PM
Might fancy a track of getting an ace Kozhedub in a Bf109G-10, starting out from 1000m, no hugely gained alt adv, and roping his plane to death?

At the second rope, I nabbed him with a classic, textbook hammerhead and landed a 30mm hit on him. Unfortunately, I thought he was dead, but he survived that, and my concentration slipped, so the fight went on longer.

But at the end, his pitiful maneuvering with a holed wing let him into a falt spin, and he crashed.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:12 PM
I cut the throttle at the top:

1)to stop engine torque, but the effect isn't that big
2)to let the engine cool abit
3)and most importantly, to get the turnradius as small as possible. Im in front and on top of him, so basically I roll over and pull down into him, which makes it a nose 2 nose turn (similar to a 1 circle fight), and turn radius is the most important in such a situation. More distance means you can leave the throttle open, but if distance is relatively small, then I can't get a good shot if I leave throttle open, my turn will be too wide.

Also notice after my attack that my vector is 90deg or more offset from the LA7,

-this prevents a dangerous overshoot
-and will also allow me to leave the fight at will.
-the LA7 will have to turn for angles to get his nose on me.. and that will cost him energy or prevent him from gaining on me.



"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner no longer"

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:18 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I can beat four - cockpit on 4 ace la7s v 1 109kv.


You should definitely post a track. I'd love to see how it's done.

I can beat an Ace La-7 in a 1 vs 1 about 50% of the time at most, but every time I try vs 4 I can get at best one before I get nailed.

Regards,

RocketDog.




Message Edited on 08/24/0305:19PM by RocketDog

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:20 PM
Kaiser record some tracks from online play and post it on your site http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I want to see skilled players.

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 07:06 PM
Thank you guys who posted the tracks and answered. I can see your skills are really tight. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Mark

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 07:07 PM
I don't really have many "engagements" online. I prey on unaware bandits, or do high speed hit and run. (that's why I prefer the FWs). I avoid dogfights like the plague, so I doubt I'll get any useful online tracks.

"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner no longer"

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 07:13 PM
.

Message Edited on 08/25/0305:18AM by No.1RAAF_edin

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 08:37 PM
Jumoschwanz

That question has been asked 50 times on this forum. I just figured you were in that noob group. Judging by all your past posts.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
08-24-2003, 09:05 PM
didn't get a track - but I will - though it'll take some time! (didn't say I could do it everytime - about 85% with 3 though - 4 is much harder)

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 09:27 PM
I find it very easy to stay alive versus 4 or even more LA-7's but I can't hit them!

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 09:57 PM
sdreyer wrote:
-
- I find it very easy to stay alive versus 4 or even
- more LA-7's but I can't hit them!
-
-

Yep. It's possible to keep above them, and higher up it's straight forward enough to open up some horizontal distance. The thing I find is that distance just lets me turn and engage in a series of head-ons. Not very sensible against Ace level AI.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When I try to drop down from above in a spiral climb I find the K4 just doesn't turn fast enough to easily exploit a height advantage and turn onto the tail of an La-7 down below.

Still, I'll be interested to see Nazgul's track. I'm probably missing something important.

Regards,

RocketDog.




Message Edited on 08/24/0308:59PM by RocketDog

ZG77_Nagual
08-24-2003, 10:02 PM
okay guys - I made a track - it's not my best work but considering that I rarely fly 109s and am not a very good shot in them. This track is also cutting it closer than I like in terms of the top of the climb (those las are energizer bunnies in a climb) but this is cool because it does demo the k4s superior very low speed control. it's just under six minutes.
If I get time to make a smoother one I will - see if this works.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/quick0008.ntrk

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg


Message Edited on 08/24/03 05:08PM by ZG77_Nagual

Message Edited on 08/24/0305:09PM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 10:51 PM
HeHe! Very nice Nazgul /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Watching you it's interesting how you aren't afraid to hang it on the prop at 150 kph and use the flaps. I think where I go wrong is in trying to keep the speed up too much (> 260 kph). The result is I'm never able to snap the nose over rapidly enough to blast an La just behind me.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 11:08 PM
ZG77_Nagual,

Although your track was educational and I picked up a few things that I can use -thank you for that- but icons, external views and padlock (and who knows what else is on/off) on? I might as well put on unlimited ammo and spray them to death. It's way easier when you always know where they are. Knowing is half the battle.

And you only got 3 of the LA's there; last one was still flying when the track ended. Not that I don't think you can bring that one down as well though.

It is pretty much just a waste of time to play that AI with more than one even on ACE. I mean they're so god damn stupid, the AI does not know the meaning of teamwork it's like playing 4 1on1's. With human players a 109 could never even take down two LA's like that, provided that the LA pilots are equally or so skilled as the 109 pilot.

- dreyer



Message Edited on 08/24/0310:09PM by sdreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:08 AM
1st time i tried this i got my butt handed to me, because i wasn't patient enough.

but i did it a few more times, and here's 3 different versions with full realism.

http://home.sw.rr.com/gutted/gutted_la7ace_k4.zip

1 is a climb before the merge
2 is driving to the merge avoiding his shots and climbing
3 is a dive followed by a climb up and past the merge



- Gutted

-------------------------------------
Check out my IL-2 Movie:

SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

Message Edited on 08/24/0311:09PM by gutted_666

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:04 AM
Not bad gutted.

I see you like to use manual pitch, do you find this actually gives any performance increase? Also you have a very odd way of looking around in the cockpit, tell me about your control setup/system. Do you use a hatswitch or what? (it's like woahhh fast).

BTW: Don't include custom skins when you make tracks like this because the size is like 600KB more than it needs to be per track http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:24 AM
woops sorry bout the skin, totally forgot.

i use the hat on my joystick, i just ramped up the speed of the headmovement because i find the default way too slow for my liking. it can be dizzy watching it after the fact sometimes, but thats because sometimes my thumb doesn't agree with my brain lol. but trust me it looks alot more hectic watching it afterwards than it is when you're actually doing it.

i just use manual prop pitch for when i want maximum speed & climbing. usually leave it on auto. whether its actually giving me more speed im not exactly positive. but seems like it. im no expert with complex engine management yet, so what im doing may just be overkill. go figure.


[EDIT] you can make the head movement faster int the conf.ini file

find this:

[HookView Config]
AzimutSpeed=0.1
TangageSpeed=0.1
LenSpeed=1.0
MinLen=1.0
DefaultLen=20.0
MaxLen=3000.0
Speed=20 <------------ adjust this one



- Gutted

-------------------------------------
Check out my IL-2 Movie:

SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

Message Edited on 08/25/03 12:33AM by gutted_666

Message Edited on 08/25/0312:35AM by gutted_666

ZG77_Nagual
08-25-2003, 02:03 AM
Sdreyer - I wasn't given any parameters for making the track. Your remark about unlimited ammo is unqualified.
The list you named is it for luxuries - everything else is full real. I did allow myself 1/2 tank of gas.

I had a feeling someone would get on me about the 'full real' thing. I have no problem with full real servers - but they are not full real (in fact it can be intelligently argued that outside views and padlock are closer to real - not 'real' - but closer):

>No binocular vision (harder to pick out objects against dark background)
>Head movements are artificially restricted - greatly limiting field of view
>Resolution does not approach real life

Bottom line though - while I've flown and enjoyed full real - I work with computers all day - and I get eyestrain looking for the little dots. I don't think full real servers require any more skill than cockpit on servers. Just alot more mucking about with the mouse - of course track IR would be a different thing (if I had one of those rigs I'd be tempted, eyestrain or not). Like I said - I've flown and been successful on both. I also like watching the planes maneuver - substitutes to some extent for the lack of G forces and depth perception.

Your right - the fourth plane was badly damaged and disengaged - I chose not to run it down to keep the track short.

Re throttle chopping - in the 190, 47 and even p39 to a lesser degree - this helps - the 109 is very stable at low speeds and engine torque can pretty much be countered with the rudder - Chopping is still not a bad idea and when you wall it again during the pull out it does give your turn a boost if you need it. I think the 109 is probably about the best at hanging slow - the dora is also quite minimally affected by torque - but she won't get so slow. Early 190s are good but they get crazy if you get just a little off.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg


Message Edited on 08/24/0309:12PM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:20 AM
Ahh thanks gutted!

- Sdreyer - I wasn't given any parameters for making
- the track. Your remark about unlimited ammo is
- unqualified.

Sorry if this offended you.

- I had a feeling someone would get on me about the
- 'full real' thing. I have no problem with full real
- servers - but they are not full real (in fact it can
- be intelligently argued that outside views and
- padlock are closer to real - not 'real' - but
- closer):

Not really, padlock is the only one you can argue about, icons and external views are not even close to 'real'. The only reason you'd want to use padlock however is because you don't have the necessary hardware (such as trackIR, or whatever it is) to properly track an aircraft with your eyes. But since padlock is ALWAYS locked on the enemy aircraft you cannot possibly loose sight of it and thus it eliminated a problem you'd have in real life.

Yes you have a lot of disadvantages with flying a computer simulator when it comes to the visual compared to real life. However! You also have a lot of advantages. There's no G forces pulling on your body, you have no fear of really dying etc... It eventually evens it out, but until there's some sort of virtual reality machine to play it on it will never be 100% like -real life-.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:32 AM
haha nice vid gutted, lots of fire in it... wteff did you do to you're bullets to make it ignite like that.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:46 AM
Thanks for all the traks guys!

Well after some watching and lots of practice I finally think I've got it in the FMB. Like a lot of you I avoid the intial head on without going straight vertical. After we pass I spiral climb until he is out of E than I can come down and usually hit him hard enough on the first pass to take the fight out of him. If not I can usually hold my alt/E advantage then its just a matter of time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:47 AM
http://www.users.qwest.net/~wclaire2/FB%20Tracks/K4vsLA7Fn-Ace.ntrk

First merge, I think, is critical.

<center>
http://www.users.qwest.net/~wclaire2/images/grab0014r.jpg (http://rlk.idleplay.net)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:49 AM
ok i did another one vs. 4 aces this time. its really not much different than taking on 1, because the AI is stupid when it comes to teamwork and they're predictable. online i'd get my butt spanked.

again full realism.

http://home.sw.rr.com/gutted/k4v4la7%20aces.zip

[edit] fixed the link

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
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SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

Message Edited on 08/25/03 01:51AM by gutted_666

Message Edited on 08/25/0301:52AM by gutted_666

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:02 AM
sdreyer you refering to the movie in my sig?

i did nothing to my bullets, but if you look closely most of those guys are mig3's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
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SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

ZG77_Nagual
08-25-2003, 03:04 AM
I agree - not much diff than one - just have to be a little more careful with e - bottom line offline is pretty easy (I sometimes practice vs 8). No offense sd - my only argument about outside views is that they do increase the field - in a real plane head movements really eliminate alot of the blind spots we have in FB (see 190 cockpit spars) - the head movements in fb are quite restricted - but I'm not sure how you'd address that.


Gutted - excellent Track! Apt to get me goin on full real now.


http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg


Message Edited on 08/24/0310:13PM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:26 AM
im no advocate of playing full realism 100% of the time. i personally dont use complete 100% realism alot of the time (i usually leave icons on, and i sometimes use no cockpit... big deal). dont get me wrong, i can do full realism just fine, but this IS a game. and not using full realism doesn't make you any less skilled. its about having fun.

i've learned that if you dont want to get comments like:

'thats nice and all, but let me see you do that in full realism'

....is to just do it in full realism the first time.


when i first posted my movie, some people were like ooh he used no cockpit in some of those clips. whoopty freakin doo, the goal of the movie was to make it look nice, not show off some uber leet skills.

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
Check out my IL-2 Movie:

SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

Message Edited on 08/25/0302:32AM by gutted_666

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:13 AM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I can beat four - cockpit on 4 ace la7s v 1 109kv.
-

I can beat 6 Ace Ai Me 262's in a P-39N-1. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:46 AM
sdreyer wrote:

- Not really, padlock is the only one you can argue
- about, icons and external views are not even close
- to 'real'. The only reason you'd want to use padlock
- however is because you don't have the necessary
- hardware (such as trackIR, or whatever it is) to
- properly track an aircraft with your eyes. But since
- padlock is ALWAYS locked on the enemy aircraft you
- cannot possibly loose sight of it and thus it
- eliminated a problem you'd have in real life.
-

I wondered how long it would be before someone had a go at Nazgul because he wasn't using max difficulty settings /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Several times I have seen RL pilots post here and say they have no problem at all continually following nearby a/c. I have NEVER seen one say that it is as easy to lose sight of an a/c in RL as it is with the tunnel vision offered by a PC game. So, based on this evidence, I think the people who disdain padlock are wrong.

Regards,

RocketDog.




Message Edited on 08/25/0308:48AM by RocketDog

Zayets
08-25-2003, 10:29 AM
I never , but never , beat an ace in a late plane with externals off. I've killed Hurri , Laggs on ace with externals off. Other planes ... nope. Try that koduzhev guy on ace in La-7. Is the best.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:19 PM
Ace La-7, myself K-4. I've tried twice.
Starting at 5000 m, no advantages, full real except no cockpit, icons on and ext wiew on.
Try #1 (1-0): after some aerobatics he managed to glue himself at my 6 very close and cut my K-4 in half with a couple of bursts of his 3 ShVAKs.
Try #2: (0-1): again at my 6, but this time I did MORE aerobatics, expecially crazy dives. AI seems to prevent La7 disintegration at >700 km/h. Anyway, La-7 has about 13" of continue firepower: that means it can do 4-6 bursts. I managed to survive until he finished his ammo and put his nose towards home. Then I engaged MW-50, went on his 6 and expoded him with a single MK-108 short burst.
No tracks, sorry.

Tips for 1-1 fights on K-4 against La-7:
1 - Don't try to out-turn a La-7.
2 - Don't try to over-climb a La-7.
3 - Try to over-dive it.
4 - Try to over-speed if you're around >5000-6000 m (110% throttle, MW-50 and radiators closed!) after a short dive to accelerate.
5 - Stay alive by aerobating until he has no more ammos, then chase him down.
6 - Remember that your MK-108 is worth 2 times its 2-3 ShVAKs: you need just to place a single burst to descend him.

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:56 PM
^ or you can watch some of the many tracks posted in this thread and see just how easy the AI can be if you do it right.

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
Check out my IL-2 Movie:

SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:01 PM
RocketDog you have a lot of pilot friends from the WW2, eh do ya lassie?

Cippacometa wrote:
- Ace La-7, myself K-4. I've tried twice.
- Starting at 5000 m, no advantages, full real except
- no cockpit, icons on and ext wiew on.
- Try #1 (1-0): after some aerobatics he managed to
- glue himself at my 6 very close and cut my K-4 in
- half with a couple of bursts of his 3 ShVAKs.

Don't do aerobatics, 109's a runner not a dancer.

Cippocameta that is some of the dumbest advice I've seen so far (or some of it) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

-Tips for 1-1 fights on K-4 against La-7:
- 1 - Don't try to out-turn a La-7.

Yes, true.

- 2 - Don't try to over-climb a La-7.

No, not true, did you watch any tracks at all? 110% with MW50 on you can out-climb the LA7. At least offline, I've never had that work that easy vs human players.

- 3 - Try to over-dive it.

You can do that, IF he gets on your 6. But vs the computer it does not seem that the frame breaks apart at any speed in a dive as it does vs human players.

- 4 - Try to over-speed if you're around >5000-6000 m
- (110% throttle, MW-50 and radiators closed!) after a
- short dive to accelerate.

I have no clue what this means...

- 5 - Stay alive by aerobating until he has no more
- ammos, then chase him down.

That must be the single worst advice I've ever seen. This must be in EXTREME and very rare cases.

- 6 - Remember that your MK-108 is worth 2 times its
- 2-3 ShVAKs: you need just to place a single burst to
- descend him.

Yap...

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:08 PM
Fighting the AI is a bit unreal anyway. Compared to a human-driven aircraft the Ace AI:

1. Cannot be surprised
2. Never overheats
3. Never breaks up in a dive
4. Never knackers their engine by over-revving
5. Seems to have a better performance envelop than the human-flown version of the same aircraft
6. Never blacks out
7. Always try to keep their nose pointed at their opponent. Always.
8. Can see through their cockpit floor

So when fighting Ace AI La-7s, we're really only fighting things that look like La-7s, but are not really La-7s at all.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:12 PM
-5. Seems to have a better performance envelop than the human-flown version of the same aircraft.

Not sure about that one, I was never able to so easily out-climb a LA-7 (human) with the K4 even with 110% and MW50.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:21 PM
sdreyer wrote:
-
- Cippacometa wrote:
-- Ace La-7, myself K-4. I've tried twice.
-- Starting at 5000 m, no advantages, full real except
-- no cockpit, icons on and ext wiew on.
-- Try #1 (1-0): after some aerobatics he managed to
-- glue himself at my 6 very close and cut my K-4 in
-- half with a couple of bursts of his 3 ShVAKs.
-
- Don't do aerobatics, 109's a runner not a dancer.
-
- Cippocameta that is some of the dumbest advice I've
- seen so far (or some of it) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

In fact I've been beaten!! That was NOT an advice on what to do, but on what I did when I've lost!!! Did you read it?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-
-- 2 - Don't try to over-climb a La-7.
-
- No, not true, did you watch any tracks at all? 110%
- with MW50 on you can out-climb the LA7. At least
- offline, I've never had that work that easy vs human
- players.

I don't agree, by personal AI experience. Moreover, I've read several posts showing that La-7 has a better climb rate than 109K-4.

-- 3 - Try to over-dive it.
-
- You can do that, IF he gets on your 6. But vs the
- computer it does not seem that the frame breaks
- apart at any speed in a dive as it does vs human
- players.

That's exactly what I said on Try #2 (the good one!)!!!

-- 4 - Try to over-speed if you're around >5000-6000 m
-- (110% throttle, MW-50 and radiators closed!) after a
-- short dive to accelerate.
-
- I have no clue what this means...

You try to go faster than him to get some distance while he's pursuing you. When you're safe from his guns, try to get also some height. This means more E if you decide to counter-attack!

-- 5 - Stay alive by aerobating until he has no more
-- ammos, then chase him down.
-
- That must be the single worst advice I've ever seen.
- This must be in EXTREME and very rare cases.

Fighting 1 vs 1 against an Ace La-7 IS an EXTREME case!!!!

If not so, what the hell is an exreme case?
You in a broken Mig.3 with 2 ammos left, against 10 F-14 Tomcats?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
That's amongst the more effective tactics I've sorted out. Moreover you cannot stay long on an Ace La-7 six, so better leave him trying to shot you down and waste his ammos.

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:28 PM
"Moreover, I've read several posts showing that La-7 has a better climb rate than 109K-4."

dont believe everything you read. if you watch the tracks you see firsthand k4's outclimbing la7's.

heres my tracks (incase you too lazy to look for em)

3 different 1v1's in this one
http://home.sw.rr.com/gutted/gutted_la7ace_k4.zip

and a 1v4 in this one
http://home.sw.rr.com/gutted/k4v4la7%20aces.zip


- Gutted

-------------------------------------
Check out my IL-2 Movie:

SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

Message Edited on 08/25/03 01:31PM by gutted_666

Message Edited on 08/25/0301:32PM by gutted_666

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:39 PM
sdreyer wrote:
-
- RocketDog you have a lot of pilot friends from the
- WW2, eh do ya lassie?
-

Nope. But there have been a number of posts here and elsewhere from RL civil and military pilots about this issue. As far as I can remember, they all said the same thing - that tracking one manouvering a/c from another is pretty easy. You can loose sight of them once they disappear behind a wing or whatever, but it's pretty hard to miss them otherwise. For what it's worth, the only time I've flown aerobatics in RL was in an RAF Bulldog two seater, and I don't remember anything like the level of disorientation that we get in FB.

I think the reason is a simple one. The angular width of the field of view of the human eye (plus peripheral vision) is much larger than that given by a PC monitor. Combine this with the rather good inherent spatial awareness of people and our ability to instinctively follow moving objects by eye and it appears that FB's padlock function is a rather useful tool to simulate what happens in real life.

Further, I have heard absolutely no convincing arguments to the opposite effect. The arguments advanced here against the use of padlock usually reduce to either: 1. It is in some way more realistic to simulate following a moving object by jerking your head in 45 degree increments with a hat switch than by doing it smoothly with padlock. 2. No padlock is more difficult, so it must be more realistic.

I find neither argument very convincing.

There is a separate issue to do with using padlock to "search", but with the reduction in range to 3 km and padlock's inability to see through a cockpit floor I think this argument has little force.

So, sorry, but until I hear a proper, rational argument against padlock I will continue to think that it's a more realistic simulation of the real world to have it enabled than not.

Of course, it doesn't matter anyway, because everyone is free to play the game as they wish.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:45 PM
Cippacometa, sigh...

No versus the -AI- the LA-7 does not have better climb than the 109-K4. It does not matter if you agree or not, watch the tracks.

- You try to go faster than him to get some distance
- while he's pursuing you. When you're safe from his
- guns, try to get also some height. This means more E
- if you decide to counter-attack!

That won't be neccessary unless you lost the altitude advantage you had to begin with after an inital climb and you're now down at CO-E or worse.

- That's amongst the more effective tactics I've
- sorted out. Moreover you cannot stay long on an Ace
- La-7 six, so better leave him trying to shot you
- down and waste his ammos.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Why let him get shots at you putting your self at risk when you don't have too?

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:47 PM
sdreyer wrote:
-
--5. Seems to have a better performance envelop than the human-flown version of the same aircraft.
-
- Not sure about that one, I was never able to so
- easily out-climb a LA-7 (human) with the K4 even
- with 110% and MW50.
-
-- dreyer

sdreyer wrote:
--
-- 2 - Don't try to over-climb a La-7.
-
- No, not true, did you watch any tracks at all? 110%
- with MW50 on you can out-climb the LA7. At least
- offline, I've never had that work that easy vs human
- players.
-


Hey, sdreyer, are you out of your brain or what?
Look what you just wrote me few minutes ago!?!!?
So which is the true?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:51 PM
I don't really care if it's more realistic or not, that can be argued until we're both blue in the face. I just like it off because it's HARDER. I'll go buy trakIR before I use padlock.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:53 PM
gutted_666 wrote:
-- dont believe everything you read. if you watch the
- tracks you see firsthand k4's outclimbing la7's.
-

Of course I don't believe in everything I read. But there were posts form several guys. Take for example the thread "Brief test of Zoom Climb abilities, V1.1b" on zoom climbs, where there are some reports also on climb rate from constant speed. What I've experienced is that on level flight at >5000 m altitude in a K4 you can go faster than a La-7. But if you put your nose up it closes an it can catch you.

- heres my tracks (incase you too lazy to look for em)
-
-

Thanks for the tracks. I'll watch them tonight.


http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:54 PM
well one big difference is that human players are more likely to snipe at you from longer distances whereas the AI doesn't. IMO thats a big problem trying to outclimb someone online, because even if your winning the climbing game, you still risk eating lead.

in a few times in those tracks i made, looking back at the la7 i was thinking to myself, now if he were human, he would be trying to snipe me and i'd probably eat it.

the k4 'should' be able to stay vertical longer than the la7 but not at low alts. but if you dont judge the E states right the la7 will pop you before he stalls out. and you'll walk away from the incident thinking he outclimbed you.

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
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Message Edited on 08/25/0302:00PM by gutted_666

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:56 PM
- Hey, sdreyer, are you out of your brain or what?
- Look what you just wrote me few minutes ago!?!!?
- So which is the true?

Both...

-- Not sure about that one, I was never able to so
-- easily out-climb a LA-7 (human) with the K4 even
-- with 110% and MW50.

I.e. HUMAN = BETTER _THAN AI

When the AI is flying the LA-7 it performs differently than when a HUMAN (you know, like a person with flesh and bones and a brain?) is operating it. The AI seems to have some limits as well as it totally breaks the laws of physics at times.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:06 PM
- I.e. HUMAN = BETTER _THAN AI
-
- When the AI is flying the LA-7 it performs
- differently than when a HUMAN (you know, like a
- person with flesh and bones and a brain?) is
- operating it. The AI seems to have some limits as
- well as it totally breaks the laws of physics at
- times.
-
-- dreyer
-
-

Just wanted to tease you as you did with me !
(after not reading what I exactly wrote!!)
Peace?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:08 PM
well i think its safe to say you really shouldn't use fighting the AI as a basis for anything, because they are just that, AI. fighting a human is totally different, even an asshat can be harder to kill than the AI at times.

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
Check out my IL-2 Movie:

SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) [b](30.5mb)

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:17 PM
sdreyer wrote:
-
- No versus the -AI- the LA-7 does not have better
- climb than the 109-K4. It does not matter if you
- agree or not, watch the tracks.

I'll watch later..

- That won't be neccessary unless you lost the
- altitude advantage you had to begin with after an
- inital climb and you're now down at CO-E or worse.

In fact I said climbing is not strictly necessary.

- That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Why let
- him get shots at you putting your self at risk when
- you don't have too?

We are talking about AI or what?!
I've noticed that even AI Ace has is not a sniper. It wastes lots of ammos (and I regret a lot when a pilot of my group is doing so!). And it quickly remains with 0 rounds. Maybe you get some scratches, but you can survive to give him back some shots.

In synthesis, since in my experience I wasn't able to stay on La7 ace's 6 for long, I don't even try, and it's too E-expensive!!! Just dodge his blows, and then strike him when he's armless!

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:22 PM
gutted_666 wrote:
- well i think its safe to say you really shouldn't
- use fighting the AI as a basis for anything, because
- they are just that, AI. fighting a human is totally
- different, even an asshat can be harder to kill than
- the AI at times.
-
-- Gutted

Agreed.
But look at the topic of the thread: "Can anyone beat an AI ACE La-7 w/ K4 in QMB post 1.1b ..."
I am are talking about AI pilots...

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

ZG77_Nagual
08-25-2003, 03:23 PM
Agreed on the ai question. The only thing harder about padlock/externals off it the eyestrain! And I still don't think its much more realistic. It is a preference but does not require greater ability - just different. My objection is that those who chose to fly this way so often attempt to impose their values on others or think they are better pilots because of it. Sort of a 'missionary' consciousness - very annoying. You'll notice the only negativity in this thread has come up around that issue.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:48 PM
-In synthesis, since in my experience I wasn't able to stay -on La7 ace's 6 for long, I don't even try, and it's too E-expensive!!! Just dodge his blows, and then strike him when he's armless!

You're not supposed to get on a LA-7's 6 with a 109. If you do it will be from above, so six o'clock high in a B&Z.

ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Agreed on the ai question. The only thing harder
- about padlock/externals off it the eyestrain! And I
- still don't think its much more realistic. It is a
- preference but does not require greater ability -
- just different. My objection is that those who chose
- to fly this way so often attempt to impose their
- values on others or think they are better pilots
- because of it. Sort of a 'missionary' consciousness
- - very annoying. You'll notice the only negativity
- in this thread has come up around that issue.

I'm not really trying to impose anything on anyone.However Padlock aside flying with external and icons on DOES make it easier. You'll never loose sight ever of your opponent with icons/external and you can predict their movement much easier. Anyhow, I don't really care what you do, I have my opinions on how the game should be played but it's all preference.

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:15 PM
gutted_666 wrote:

- in a few times in those tracks i made, looking back
- at the la7 i was thinking to myself, now if he were
- human, he would be trying to snipe me and i'd
- probably eat it.

Good point. In a few of the tracks I was quite surprised that the AI didn't just hoick the stick back and blast away with their cannons. They'd probably stall out, but the 109 K4 is so close they could hardly miss. A human player would almost certainly have done it.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:20 PM
Ya so what.


In Oleg world you can beat three 109k's AI in ace while flying a B239.

Now ya telling me that not over modded.

Where is the real patch ?

Oh ya history dictated that russian planes are the best, thats only if you live in Olegs world.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:23 PM
You're an idiot. We beat 4 or more LA-7's in a K4. Even beating 50 million 109's in a B239 does not imply "overmodelled", rather that the AI is f**king ******ed and playing online is the only way to go.

- dreyer



LastRights wrote:
- Ya so what.
-
-
- In Oleg world you can beat three 109k's AI in ace
- while flying a B239.
-
- Now ya telling me that not over modded.
-
- Where is the real patch ?
-
- Oh ya history dictated that russian planes are the
- best, thats only if you live in Olegs world.
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:26 PM
sdreyer wrote:

- I have my opinions
- on how the game should be played but it's all
- preference.

Better to say "I have my own opinions on how I prefer to play the game". I don't think there is any particular way it "should" be played.

Mind you, the padlock/no-padlock thing is nothing compared to the heat over third-person/fist-person we used to have in MechWarrior 4 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:31 PM
RocketDog wrote:
- Fighting the AI is a bit unreal anyway. Compared to
- a human-driven aircraft the Ace AI:
-
- 1. Cannot be surprised

Ooops - left out a very importmant one.

9. Once in the 6 o'clock position, even Ace-level AI is incapable of hitting a gently turning target. More than once in playing the K4 vs 4 Ace La-7 game I've had a string of La-7s on my six with the lead one apparantly shooting the heck out an invisible target ten metres off my starboard wingtip...

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:13 PM
The tracks don't work. I get different results everytime. Great Software.


Where is the real patch.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:49 PM
I tried it once and blew the LA to shreds. The ace AI sucks in this game. I was also down on the deck and was able to out turn him horizontally!!! Something wasn't right there.
I tried a saving a track of it but when I played it back, I was shooting thin air, never hit him, then he promptly shot me down!!!! The track recording also sucks, hope they fix that......

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:46 PM
I am a full realism player and I do much better in full realism servers...However, i might be tempted to use padlock from time to time if i can get the damn thing to workhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Seriously though, by adjusting your headmovement speed and pressing page down to sit back in your seat when tracking your prey and hot keying to a convient location your gunsight view you get a much more real and rewarding effect. When using padlock and playing in padlock servers do you ever notice that the only time you get a "sneek-Up" kill is when you nail some poor bastard shooting some one else or another full realism pilot?? That is my hang up with padlock but perhaps i am wrong. It seems you cant sneek up on anyone in there.

"I am a hunter. When I have shot down an Englishman my hunter's passion is satisfied for a quater of an hour."
-Manfred Von Richtoffen

" I fear no over heat 'till the needle on both guages hits the nine...Then it's too late."
-Me


Me to the Smithsonian; "Wanna sell your 190D??"

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the videos, kind of shows me how bad I am at this game :-)

VonHeide wrote:
- When using padlock and playing in padlock servers do you
- ever notice that the only time you get a "sneek-Up"
- kill is when you nail some poor bastard shooting
- some one else or another full realism pilot?? That
- is my hang up with padlock but perhaps i am wrong.
- It seems you cant sneek up on anyone in there.

You are wrong there VonHeide, I often find myself suddenly tumbling towards the ground, but as you might have guessed that probably says more bout than the server difficulty http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


As for my opinion in the Padlock or not question, I think I'll just keep quiet, enough people arguing about it here all ready.

- Zlatzman