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View Full Version : Stuka vs. P. 11!? true story



XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:09 PM
I checked out a library book recently called "Aircraft Versus Aircraft" for my 8-year-old son and found myself engrossed in it. Perfect for the IL-2 player, covering fighter combat from 1914 through the Falklands War. A lot of fascinating annecdotes and details.

One incident discussed was when two Polish P.11s took off after German Dorniers flying low. One of the P.11s was actually shot down by a Stuka (which was returning from a mission)!

The other P.11 managed to hit two Dorniers and force them to ditch.

Unfortunately, the book seems to be out-of-print. Good, though short, section on the Russian front. Also fascinating accounts of Werner Molders in Spain flying against the Republicans in I-153s and I-16s.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:09 PM
I checked out a library book recently called "Aircraft Versus Aircraft" for my 8-year-old son and found myself engrossed in it. Perfect for the IL-2 player, covering fighter combat from 1914 through the Falklands War. A lot of fascinating annecdotes and details.

One incident discussed was when two Polish P.11s took off after German Dorniers flying low. One of the P.11s was actually shot down by a Stuka (which was returning from a mission)!

The other P.11 managed to hit two Dorniers and force them to ditch.

Unfortunately, the book seems to be out-of-print. Good, though short, section on the Russian front. Also fascinating accounts of Werner Molders in Spain flying against the Republicans in I-153s and I-16s.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:12 PM
that p11 obvously got bounced /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:14 PM
Jakis durny frajer dal sie wrobic czy co do cholery....?

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:14 PM
But bounced by a STUKA? Rather sad. Of course, the P. 11 was exceptionally slow for a fighter.

I wonder if anyone ever kept tallies on planes downed by the Ju-87 in the war!?

Matt

Hawgdog
11-06-2003, 04:32 PM
I betcha more likely, the pee-levun jumped the stuka and the rear gunner got him!


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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:56 PM
I've got the book, it's written by Norman Franks.It's ok, a nice read but not great IMHO.There's a few copies available at amazon.com, I bought mine at the RAF Museum, Hendon and it cost me 4.99 ($7.50ish U.S.) I think.

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:13 PM
He was Vulched!


"The first clash between Luftwaffe and Polish fighters took place on September the 1st, shortly before 7 am over the secret Polish airfield of Balice, near Cracow. A three-airplane section of 121 Eskadra was surprised during take-off by three Ju 87s and Capt. Medwecki, the Commanding Officer of the Cracow Army Fighter Wing was killed. His victor was Franck Neubert of StG2 Immelmann. 2nd Lt. Wladyslaw Gnys managed to evade the attack, and damage one of the Stukas. A few minutes later, having climbed, he attacked two Do 17s returning from a raid on Cracow, scoring several hits on each of them. After his second dive, he lost visual contact with them and returned to the airfield not knowing that he had just scored the first two victories over Luftwaffe in World War 2. The two German bombers collided after his attack and fell to the ground near the village of Zurada. "

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:23 PM
Ok, I remove "durny frajer"...

Still I fail to understand why some of the Polish units were caught by surprise while the others were fully allerted due to the correct intelligence warnings.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:41 PM
possibly ---> http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/neubert/neubert.htm

Nobody will ever know, as it should be. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hawgdog
11-06-2003, 09:55 PM
Vulching is as vulching does!

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:29 PM
Thanks to Zyzbot for quoting the book text (I didn't have it in front of me at the time). Great link, LEXX, about the original pilots. Fascinating!

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 11:06 PM
This is neat, and maybe the Poles were kinda smart too....

Article::
Early morning September 1st, 1939, his dive bomber unit started to destroy Polish airbase in Krakow (base was empty /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif -- a day before Polish air forces were moved to reserve airfields /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ).


*bah* I learned all my links here, at the ubi.com

Thanks again to Zyzbot for the link to Soviets in China WAR.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 11:38 AM
The Polish military intelligence knew quite exactly when and where the Germans are about to attack. The German codes (the simpler, pre-war version of Enigma) were decoded a couple of months before. Shame that this information was not used in the defence preparation.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:33 PM
Stukas were slightly faster in level flight than P.11s. Polish pilots had to use alt. advantages or intercept vectors to even catch German bombers, all of which were faster, but once they did the outcome was pretty certain. Poland had some of the most well-trained pilots in the world.

The Stuka is pretty nimble for its size, and could probably put up more of a fight than the Luftwaffe's twin engine bombers in use at the time. However, in IL2 the P.11 has a greatly overmodelled damage model and could never be shot down by a Ju87.

I've shot down quite a few human fighters with the Stuka's front peashooters, even a few IL2s--but never a P.11. And he rear gun on the later D and G model is actually quite dangerous.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:42 PM
If the Poles were 'amongst the highest trained pilots n the world', how come they didn't cut a swathe through the Germans when they flew Hurricanes/Spits with the RAF in Britain?(or when fighting with Russian planes?). The Poles had a great record in the RAF - and in the War - but I'm not sure they were particularly well trained or well armed. They used primitive, out-dated equipment and out-dated tactics. What gave them the results they acheived was their outstanding bravery and stubbornness.

The Stukas got slaughtered by the RAF whenever they weren't escorted by fighters - the large Luftwaffe bombers at least had more defensive armament to help dissuade attacking fighters. Face it, the Stuka was a dog when on it's own.

BigClaw

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 07:22 PM
BigClaw wrote:
- If the Poles were 'amongst the highest trained
- pilots n the world', how come they didn't cut a
- swathe through the Germans when they flew
- Hurricanes/Spits with the RAF in Britain?(or when
- fighting with Russian planes?). The Poles had a
- great record in the RAF - and in the War - but I'm
- not sure they were particularly well trained or well
- armed. They used primitive, out-dated equipment and
- out-dated tactics. What gave them the results they
- acheived was their outstanding bravery and
- stubbornness.
-
- The Stukas got slaughtered by the RAF whenever they
- weren't escorted by fighters - the large Luftwaffe
- bombers at least had more defensive armament to help
- dissuade attacking fighters. Face it, the Stuka was
- a dog when on it's own.
-
- BigClaw
-
-

Found this comment on the web .This guy clearly holds a different opinion:


"Q. Polish pilots weren't very skilled. They made it up with their aggressiveness and bravado, but suffered heavy losses for the same reason.

A: This one is clearly my favorite :-). In fact, at the outbreak of World War 2, they were possibly the best trained pilots in the world. Because of the relatively small size of the pre-war Polish Air Force (for a country of size comparable to France), only select few of the many candidates made it through training to the combat units. The training programme at the Aviation Cadets School in Deblin and the Advanced Flying School in Grudziadz-Ulez was very demanding, both with regard to flying and shooting skills, with constant competition among the pilots, each striving to do their best. Let me describe just one exercise, as recollected by F/Lt Stanislaw Bochniak: a colored, small parachute was thrown out of the cockpit in flight. The trainee, always keeping it in sight, had to climb 300-400 meters (1000 ft), stall into a spin, and recover at just the right moment to fire exactly one shot with his camera gun. In most cases, not only did they not lose sight of the parachute, but "scored" on the shot! In first line units - unlike in other air forces of that time - dogfight training in various configurations (one vs. one, one vs. two, section vs. section, or even squadron vs squadron) was a constant issue, and gunnery competitions were also regularly staged. It's no wonder then, that these pilots were a in a class of their own, when compared with the run-of-the-mill RAF or Luftwaffe pilots (which does not mean that both these airforces did not have their share of outstanding pilots). The combat record of Polish pilots, with a consistently high victory/loss ratio, also speaks for itself. On April 11, 1942, when an aerial gunnery contest was staged within the 11th Fighter Group, the three competing Polish squadrons - 303, 316 and 315 took the first three places out of 22, 303 Squadron coming first by a healthy margin. These high standards were sustained throughout the war, with pilots from combat units on rest from operational duties taking part in the schooling of rookie pilots."