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XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:23 PM
Was doing a QMB mission today: Me in a G2 against four ace MC202. I started as usual. fly level till the enemies come close then do a roll and climb. Then i was suprised. they did not try to follow. Ok so makes the job even easier. I dive and shoot but they don't even try to follow me up. nothing they move a little up and down fy circles over the forest like a bunch of insects but do not make any atempts to shoot me or hunt for me. Why are those Italian fighters so passive in the sim? If they are behaving like that all the time i don't want italian AI fighters to cover me online. Anyone got a clue? .(no insult against any italians here except you consider yourself as AI /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif


Message Edited on 07/28/03‚ 04:23PM by Gershy

Message Edited on 07/28/0306:09PM by Gershy

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:23 PM
Was doing a QMB mission today: Me in a G2 against four ace MC202. I started as usual. fly level till the enemies come close then do a roll and climb. Then i was suprised. they did not try to follow. Ok so makes the job even easier. I dive and shoot but they don't even try to follow me up. nothing they move a little up and down fy circles over the forest like a bunch of insects but do not make any atempts to shoot me or hunt for me. Why are those Italian fighters so passive in the sim? If they are behaving like that all the time i don't want italian AI fighters to cover me online. Anyone got a clue? .(no insult against any italians here except you consider yourself as AI /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif


Message Edited on 07/28/03‚ 04:23PM by Gershy

Message Edited on 07/28/0306:09PM by Gershy

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:29 PM
Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it could be improved would be if the italian planes could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot down.

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:42 PM
rules of war:

1. Italy always wins.

2. Never start a war when italy is your ally.



...strange but true

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

---------------------------------------
S! Blue_Smiley - online as Farmerboy
Flying Il2 newbie-style since 2001

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:45 PM
flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.
-

Here is a list of some of your "cowards":


Name Kills
Franco Lucchini 26
Adriano Visconti 26
Teresio Martinoli 23
Leonardo Ferrulli 22
Franco Bordoni-Bisleri 19
Luigi Gorrini 19
Furio Lauri 18
Morosi 18
Mario Bonzano 17
Mario Visintini 17
Ugo Drago 16
Duilio S. Fanali 15
Adriano Mantelli 15
Luigi Giannella 14
Brunetto di Montegnacco 14
Corrado Ricci 14
Mario Bellagambi 13
Germano La Ferla 13
Vittorio Minguzzi 13
Guido Presel 13
Luigi Baron 12
Giovanni Dell' Innocenti 12
Attilio Sanson 12
Claudio Solaro 12
Gianlino Baschirotto 11
Carlo Magnaghi 11
Angelo Mastroagostino 11
Carlo Romagnoli 11
Carlo Maurizio Ruspoli di Poggio Suasa 11
Pietro Serini 11
Giorgio Solaroli di Briona 11
Ennio Tarantola 11
Mario Veronesi 11
Amedeo Benati 10
Fernando Malvezzi 10
Guido Nobili 10
Giulio Reiner 10
Giuseppe Roberto 10
Massimo Salvatore 10
Giulio Torresi 10
Emanuele Annoni 9
Giovanni Barcaro 9
Guiseppe Cenni 9
Guido Fibbia 9
Walter Omiccioli 9
Ferruccio Serafini 9
Natalino Stabile 9
Andrea Zotti 9
Giuseppe Biron 8
Giovanni Bonet 8
Ernesto Botto 8
Antonio Camaioni 8
Antonio Longhini 8
Orfeo Mazzitelli 8
Aroldo Soffritti 8
Raffaele Valenzano 8
Tito Valtancoli 8
Ranieri Piccolomini Clementini Adami 7
Bruno Biagini 7
Carlo Canella 7
Antonio Canfora 7
Vittorino Daffara 7
Fausto Filippi 7
Luigi Filippi 7
Dino Forlani 7
Ettore Foschini 7
Roberto Gaucci 7
Filippo Guarnaccia 7
Orlando Mandolini 7
Carlo Miani 7
Olizio Nioi 7
Giuseppe Oblach 7
Vincenzo Sant' Andrea 7
Angelo Savini 7
Enzo Lombardo Schiappacasse 7
Virgilio Vanzan 7
Osvaldo Bartolacchini 6
Osvaldo Bartolozzi 6
Livio Bassi 6
Pietro Bonfatti 6
Aldo Buvoli 6
Agostino Calentano 6
Cesare Di Bert 6
Armando Francois 6
Amedeo Guidi 6
Domenico Laiolo 6
Antonio Larsimont Pergameni 6
Felice Longhi 6
Giuseppe Manconcini 6
Mario Mecatti 6
Amleto Monterumici 6
Giuseppe Mottet 6
Furio Doglio Niclot 6
Luciano Perdoni 6
Alvaro Querci 6
Diego Rodoz 6
Giuseppe Ruzzin 6
Pier Giuseppe Scarpetta 6
Ricardo Emo Seidl 6
Alberto Spigaglia 6
Giorgio Tugnoli 6
Alberto Veronese 6
Paolo Arcangeletti 5
Guiseppe Aurili 5
Loris Baldi 5
Luigi Bandini 5
Giuseppe Baylon 5
Duilio Bernardi 5
Lucio Biagini 5
Manfredo Bianchi 5
Pietro Bianchi 5
Alessandro Bladelli 5
Egidio Buogo 5
Gilberto Caselli 5
Evasio Cavalli 5
Guglielmo Chiarini 5
Tullio Covre 5
Carlo Cucchi 5
Francesco Cuscuana 5
Rinaldo Damiani 5
Enrico Degli Incerto 5
Domenico Facchini 5
Giuseppe Farazzani 5
Giuliano Fissore 5
Fausto Fornaci 5
Iacopo Frigerio 5
Antonio Giardina 5
Eber Giudice 5
Giorgio Graffer 5
Mario Guerci 5
Luigi Iellici 5
Eugenio Leotta 5
Luigi Mariotti 5
Sergio Maurer 5
Mario Melis 5
Elio Miotto 5
Gianfranco Montagnani 5
Luigi Monti 5
Enrico Moretto 5
Raffaello Novelli 5
Dante Ocarso 5
Enzo Omiccioli 5
Antonio Palazzeschi 5
Francesco Pecchiari 5
Constantino Petrosellini 5
Mario Pinna 5
Mario Pluda 5
Giorgio Pocek 5
Aldo Remondino 5
Riccardo Roveda 5
Giovanni Sajeva 5
Carlo Segandi 5
Olindo Simionato 5
Vittorio Squarcia 5
Annibale Sterzi 5
Renato Talamini 5
Arrigo Tessari 5
Luigi Torchio 5
Celso Zemella 5
Nicola Zotti 5

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:45 PM
So tempting to comment......../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Think I'll steer clear!

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:47 PM
Me too. I'm just not going to say anything even though I have nothing whatsoever against Italians.

---------------------------------------
Greetings from Monterey, California, USA!

http://www.seaviewinncarmel.com/carmel.jpg


Mors Ianua Vitae (sed mori nolo!)

-Artes Latinae (L186 Anon)-

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:50 PM
I think there is a bug in FB. When I use the QMB and select the MC202 AI The game inevitably crashes to desktop or locks up. Not good.

As for your comments Flamins. Your generalizations about all italians are grossly obscene and disgusting.

What planet are you living on anyway? it is certainly not earth.

flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:53 PM
Yeah the country bashing is getting real old.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:58 PM
flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.


Well, guess what, I had the same behaviour against P-51. There goes your italian theory... oh, and btw, have you ever heard of the Roman Empire? Yeah, that's what I thought.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:02 PM
Sorry if i started this. Really nothing against Italians.

back to the main question:

Why don't they attack. Looks like their "agression level" (if there is something like that in the AI program) is much lower than that of the russian or german AI for example. I can just repeat they are really passive. Stay on alt and only attack you when you place yourself in front of them and wave a sheet of paper saying "Here I am! Shoot me!"

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:03 PM
flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.
-
-

Yes, i love pasta and pizza!


http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:03 PM
Don't forget that great Italian American Don Gentile.

Oh is he italian you say? ahh yeah. Just happens to be one of the top Aces in U.S. Army Air Corps during the second world war.
Zyzbot wrote:
- flamins wrote:
-- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
-- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
-- could be improved would be if the italian planes
-- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
-- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
-- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
-- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
-- down.
--
-
- Here is a list of some of your "cowards":
-
-
- Name Kills
-
- Franco Lucchini 26
- Adriano Visconti 26
- Teresio Martinoli 23
- Leonardo Ferrulli 22
- Franco Bordoni-Bisleri 19
- Luigi Gorrini 19
- Furio Lauri 18
- Morosi 18
- Mario Bonzano 17
- Mario Visintini 17
- Ugo Drago 16
- Duilio S. Fanali 15
- Adriano Mantelli 15
- Luigi Giannella 14
- Brunetto di Montegnacco 14
- Corrado Ricci 14
- Mario Bellagambi 13
- Germano La Ferla 13
- Vittorio Minguzzi 13
- Guido Presel 13
- Luigi Baron 12
- Giovanni Dell' Innocenti 12
- Attilio Sanson 12
- Claudio Solaro 12
- Gianlino Baschirotto 11
- Carlo Magnaghi 11
- Angelo Mastroagostino 11
- Carlo Romagnoli 11
- Carlo Maurizio Ruspoli di Poggio Suasa 11
- Pietro Serini 11
- Giorgio Solaroli di Briona 11
- Ennio Tarantola 11
- Mario Veronesi 11
- Amedeo Benati 10
- Fernando Malvezzi 10
- Guido Nobili 10
- Giulio Reiner 10
- Giuseppe Roberto 10
- Massimo Salvatore 10
- Giulio Torresi 10
- Emanuele Annoni 9
- Giovanni Barcaro 9
- Guiseppe Cenni 9
- Guido Fibbia 9
- Walter Omiccioli 9
- Ferruccio Serafini 9
- Natalino Stabile 9
- Andrea Zotti 9
- Giuseppe Biron 8
- Giovanni Bonet 8
- Ernesto Botto 8
- Antonio Camaioni 8
- Antonio Longhini 8
- Orfeo Mazzitelli 8
- Aroldo Soffritti 8
- Raffaele Valenzano 8
- Tito Valtancoli 8
- Ranieri Piccolomini Clementini Adami 7
- Bruno Biagini 7
- Carlo Canella 7
- Antonio Canfora 7
- Vittorino Daffara 7
- Fausto Filippi 7
- Luigi Filippi 7
- Dino Forlani 7
- Ettore Foschini 7
- Roberto Gaucci 7
- Filippo Guarnaccia 7
- Orlando Mandolini 7
- Carlo Miani 7
- Olizio Nioi 7
- Giuseppe Oblach 7
- Vincenzo Sant' Andrea 7
- Angelo Savini 7
- Enzo Lombardo Schiappacasse 7
- Virgilio Vanzan 7
- Osvaldo Bartolacchini 6
- Osvaldo Bartolozzi 6
- Livio Bassi 6
- Pietro Bonfatti 6
- Aldo Buvoli 6
- Agostino Calentano 6
- Cesare Di Bert 6
- Armando Francois 6
- Amedeo Guidi 6
- Domenico Laiolo 6
- Antonio Larsimont Pergameni 6
- Felice Longhi 6
- Giuseppe Manconcini 6
- Mario Mecatti 6
- Amleto Monterumici 6
- Giuseppe Mottet 6
- Furio Doglio Niclot 6
- Luciano Perdoni 6
- Alvaro Querci 6
- Diego Rodoz 6
- Giuseppe Ruzzin 6
- Pier Giuseppe Scarpetta 6
- Ricardo Emo Seidl 6
- Alberto Spigaglia 6
- Giorgio Tugnoli 6
- Alberto Veronese 6
- Paolo Arcangeletti 5
- Guiseppe Aurili 5
- Loris Baldi 5
- Luigi Bandini 5
- Giuseppe Baylon 5
- Duilio Bernardi 5
- Lucio Biagini 5
- Manfredo Bianchi 5
- Pietro Bianchi 5
- Alessandro Bladelli 5
- Egidio Buogo 5
- Gilberto Caselli 5
- Evasio Cavalli 5
- Guglielmo Chiarini 5
- Tullio Covre 5
- Carlo Cucchi 5
- Francesco Cuscuana 5
- Rinaldo Damiani 5
- Enrico Degli Incerto 5
- Domenico Facchini 5
- Giuseppe Farazzani 5
- Giuliano Fissore 5
- Fausto Fornaci 5
- Iacopo Frigerio 5
- Antonio Giardina 5
- Eber Giudice 5
- Giorgio Graffer 5
- Mario Guerci 5
- Luigi Iellici 5
- Eugenio Leotta 5
- Luigi Mariotti 5
- Sergio Maurer 5
- Mario Melis 5
- Elio Miotto 5
- Gianfranco Montagnani 5
- Luigi Monti 5
- Enrico Moretto 5
- Raffaello Novelli 5
- Dante Ocarso 5
- Enzo Omiccioli 5
- Antonio Palazzeschi 5
- Francesco Pecchiari 5
- Constantino Petrosellini 5
- Mario Pinna 5
- Mario Pluda 5
- Giorgio Pocek 5
- Aldo Remondino 5
- Riccardo Roveda 5
- Giovanni Sajeva 5
- Carlo Segandi 5
- Olindo Simionato 5
- Vittorio Squarcia 5
- Annibale Sterzi 5
- Renato Talamini 5
- Arrigo Tessari 5
- Luigi Torchio 5
- Celso Zemella 5
- Nicola Zotti 5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:06 PM
Gershy wrote:
- back to the main question:
-
- Why don't they attack. Looks like their "agression
- level" (if there is something like that in the AI
- program) is much lower than that of the russian or
- german AI for example. I can just repeat they are
- really passive. Stay on alt and only attack you when
- you place yourself in front of them and wave a sheet
- of paper saying "Here I am! Shoot me!"

As I said.. it has nothing to do with the fact that they're Macchis... I noticed the same thing occasionally with other aircraft... it's like they don't pick up that you're there. Try playing consecutive missions in the QMB - you'll notice that 1 out of 4 or perhaps 5 missions, this happens.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:12 PM
Look at my quote about italian bravery you fool.
Italians probably one of most bravest of all nations to fight in ww2. They still fought with old and crappy equipment even still when the odds were grealy outnumbered, they still fought.

The top ace on the list, Franco Lucchini died while attacking a B-17 formation in a Mc202 with only 2x12.7mm.

So don't talk of the lack of bravy of italians, next time don't talk out of your ***.

---------------------------------------
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, where as the Jerries will run." Beurling in Malta Spitfire

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/202k1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:20 PM
cuski wrote:
-
- have you ever heard of the Roman Empire? Yeah,
- that's what I thought.


I think that you are pushing it a bit if you want to defend the 20th century italians on the grounds of what an ancient civilisation did more than 1,600 years ago. You might as well say that modern day americans are in touch with the environment because the red indians were in harmony with nature in the 19th century.

Still, in spite of the torrent of politically correct drivel, it remains the truth that bravery isn't among the italians most notable characteristics. People here just don't like the blunt truth - which mightn't always be pleasant platitudes that they are used to spouting on a daily basis.

So, to clear things up, here is a history of Italy in world war ii:

First, the italians kick off fascism (oh yes, it is an italian invention - read the works of Bernhardini and the italian proto-fascists of the 1900's if you don't believe me), then take on the terrifying military superpower known as ethiopia. They lose. They go back and try again. This time the african colussus falls before the brave Italian soldiers. Italian 'heroism' is born. Germany initiates the aggression that prompts Britain and France to declare war. Italy jumps on the bandwagon and decides to pick off yet more spectacular African countries. Italy fails - Britain kicks the *** of the Italian 'heroes' whilst fighting single-handedly against the German onslaught. Britain wipes out Italy's entire fleet at Taranto - using Swordfish aircraft flown by men who really are heroes. Italy tries to take control of Malta. Look at a map to see how close Malta is to Italy, and how far away it is from Britain. Italy loses. British airmen (flying Gloucester Gladiators) defeat the brave Italian 'aces' and hold the island for the allies. Meanwhile, in the East, Italian armies fail to hold back the Russian pincer movement to cut off the Germans at Stalingrad. Italians run away, Paulus is isolated. Back in Italy, British and American forces make their landings in 1943. The italians change sides after putting up a glorious five minute struggle. German troops, however, manage to fight an organised retreat and hold the allies at the alps. War ends, Italy has managed to successfully hide, lie and cheat her way out of any trouble. Germany bears the complete blame for fascism. Italy's crimes are conveniently forgotton in the new exigencies of the Cold War.

So, there you have it. I look forward to hearing the revisionist crap that will now issue forth from the mouths of many self-righteous 'historians' who frequent these posts.

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:31 PM
flamins wrote:
- I think that you are pushing it a bit if you want to
- defend the 20th century italians on the grounds of
- what an ancient civilisation did more than 1,600
- years ago. You might as well say that modern day
- americans are in touch with the environment because
- the red indians were in harmony with nature in the
- 19th century.

The only flaw in your attempt at sarcasm is the fact the modern day american is not a direct descendant of the red indians.

And no offense, but one that says that a history of more than 2000 years is wiped clean by a single event is one that doesn't have much history anyway.

As for your "historical" information, I am well aware of the facts. So did the romanians, turn arms against the germans - does that mean they are cowards too? I dare you to say that to the families of the 500,000 soldiers that died on the eastern front.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:34 PM
flamins wrote:
- -
- Britain wipes out
- Italy's entire fleet at Taranto - using Swordfish
- aircraft flown by men who really are heroes.



Talk about revisionist history! Wiped out the entire Italian fleet? Hardly.

"The Aftermath.
The cost in human life had been surprisingly light and nothing compared to some of the other great naval engagements of the war. The Royal Navy had lost two men killed and two more taken prisoner-of-war. The Italians had lost a total of 40 men; one on the Duilio, sixteen on the Conti di Cavour and twenty-three on the Littorio.

The Littorio was to be out of action for five months, the Duilio for six months, and the Conti di Cavour was still being repaired when Italy surrendered. The Trento was out of commission for months from the damage of the single unexploded bomb. Perhaps as important as the physical damage done to the Italian warships was the psychological damage. Taranto, the main offensive base of the Royal italian Navy had been shown to be insecure. The day after the raid Supermarina ordered the Vittorio Veneto and the Giulio Cesare to sail north for the port of Naples, where they would be safer. They would also be so far away from the important sealanes as to pose almost no threat to the British. The Italian fleet did fight other actions against the British, the largest being at Cape Matapan, but the raid on Taranto effectively ended any hope the Italians had of actually turning the Mediterranean into the Mare Nostrum so beloved of Fascist propaganda. For the Royal Navy it had been a good night's work. "

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:39 PM
cuski wrote:

- The only flaw in your attempt at sarcasm is the fact
- the modern day american is not a direct descendant
- of the red indians.
-


Well, it's interesting that you should point this out, as the modern day italians are not the direct descendants of the Romans, either. Yes, you see the Romans were overrun by the Barbarians and then hoardes of Carthage and then a bunch of Teutons and so modern day Italians are about as Roman as micky mouse. Perhaps this explains why Italians - unlike the Romans - never conquered anything more than defenceless Ethiopians. But of course, attacking spear-armed africans with tanks and machine guns is 'heroic' by your standards.

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:44 PM
Zyzbot wrote:
-
.
- The Italian fleet did fight other actions against
- the British, the largest being at Cape Matapan, but
- the raid on Taranto effectively ended any hope the
- Italians had of actually turning the Mediterranean
- into the Mare Nostrum so beloved of Fascist
- propaganda. For the Royal Navy it had been a good
- night's work. "
-


Thanks for bringing up the battle of cape matapan. I had forgotton about this particular feat of cowardice on the part of the Italians. Anyone wanting to find out the extent of italian fear and timidity need only look up the details of how a powerful italian force of battleships and modern cruisers was defeated by and ran away from a materially inferior (but morally superior) British force of an obsolete battleship and a few cruisers.


Now, i realise some of you might not believe me - so have a look at this account that records the absolutely astounding scale of the Italian defeat at the hands on an inferior force:

http://members.tripod.com/~colemangr/Cape_Matapan.htm

"The Aftermath of the Battle

At the end of the battle the British had achieved what they had set out to do and had gained the upper hand in the Mediterranean sinking 3 Italian cruisers as well as a number of destroyers with not a single casualty aboard any of there warships . Although they had missed sinking the Vittorio Veneto the Italian navy was a spent force and never again did they mount a major sortie with there warships which enabled the British to continue with her supplies to Malta and Africa without the constant fear of the Italian navy."



Message Edited on 07/28/0305:47PM by flamins

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:45 PM
What a load of nonsense. What's the point of this bashing anyway? There's a world of difference between combat effectiveness and bravery. But that's a discussion that should be saved for a more civilized threat.

To all Italians out there:

Lets all be friends. Anyone who wants to country bash is free to discuss this at another website.

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:47 PM
Flamins is an ignorant assclown, never mind him.
Seems he doesn't like italians... maybe the mafia extorted his dads money. British hardly flew gladiators in malta... thats a stupid myth. When the "onslought" came they had hurricanes and then spitfires. Also, germans WITH the italians couldn't beat malta, it didn't matter anyways since Operation Torch happened and Hitler did not want to invade. If you think stalingrad was lost of the italians and not by the germans, your brain dead.
Common history has not been kind to the italians and the french.. but this what garbage you read and belive.
Italy had idiot leadership (and I don't include ONLY Mussolini), inadequate equipment, a wrong organization and logistics, unsufficient industry, old weapons, mad tactics and no strategic plan at all; it could only lose. Why continue to insist again and again and again on these stories about morale, cowardice and so on? And they still fought!


Whoever still adheres to the myth that Italians behaved "cowardly" in World War II should read the book
"War in Italy, 1943-45: A Brutal Story" by Richard Lamb
The author, a former British liaison officer with the Royal Italian Army, tells the story of the events between the fall of Mussolini and the end of the war from an Italian point of view and reveals some astounding facts that I believe few people, even if greatly intersted in the Second World War, have ever heard about. Here are some of them:

- The Italian "Decima Mas" division put 73.000 tons of British shipping out of action in Mediterranean ports with two-man human torpedoes (mini-submarines with an explosive charge manned by a crew of two who steered the sub in the direction of the target and then tried to get away swimming before it hit), for the loss of only six men. Their most effective operation was in Alexandria harbour on the night of 18 December 1941, when they damaged the British battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant so badly that they took many months to repair.
-
The "Decima Mas", "Nembo" and "Folgore" divisions, as well as Italian SS units, fought with distinction against the allies at Anzio. Even Kesselring was impressed.

Some things i just rememberd from that book.


Well, to say that the Italian Army loose all the campaign it started is one thing and it is a matter of fact. Sayng that italians are cowards is not.
If the Italian Army had something it was (at least till 1943) the bravery of theyr soldiers (wait, don't start laughing yet). The reasons why the Italian Military history is a one of glorious defeats are more complex and don't touch the humble soldier who most of the time fought with bravery under objective condition of inferiority in equipment and command. The Italian Infantry man as such was, at first sight, equipped more or less like any other Infantryman of that period. The mod.'91 rifle (known abroad as Carcano or Mannlicher-Carcano) was not worse than a Lebel or an Enfield, or even a Mauser. It was an honest Bolt-action-rifle firing 6,5mm cartridges which were, in fact, not so powerful as Mauser cartridges, nevertheless they did theyr (awful) job. The Breda 8mm. MG was a good MG. but then is over: ridiculous Tanks which awaked the pity of both germans and allies for those "magnificent men in their iron soap-boxes" which died but didn't surrender.
The lack of mobility was decisive, in my opinion.
Graziani's troops were defeated in the first phase of the North African campaign mostly because, although superior in number, they could only stand and wait for the enemy to come, who in turn was higly mobile and could gain local superiority each time.
In El-Alamein Italian soldiers fought with hand grenades against tanks.

About the italian in russia...

In Russia on the Don-River Sforzesca and Vicenza division were simply overflood by the russian tanks (the Christmas Battle in Italian literature), again fighting with rifles against 34 tons armoured vehicles (no efective anti-tank guns). The Alpini of the "Julia" were then moved from there trenches at the Don and displaced in the open steppe to face the russians now coming from south and resisted then for nearly a month in the deep Russian winter without adequate equipment and completely in the open. They fought then theyr way back together with the "Tridentina" till Nikoljewka, where they managed to finally brake out from the cul de sac created by the Red Army (many German, Hungarian and soldiers from other countries have to thank these men if they managed to come back from Russia). Remarkable is, that the Red Army itself, as enemy, recognized in a war communicate that the sole Corpo d'Armata Alpino could considerate itself unbeaten on russian soil. The fact that the Italian Army can award itself with the last cavalry charge in military history, the one at Isbusenskij in august 1942 is a witness of this: gallandry and obsolescence.


See flamins you don't know what your talking about, its not fault though, you don't know these things, but its not a reason to talk out of your *** and say bad things about a country for no reason.
Wanker.


---------------------------------------
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, where as the Jerries will run." Beurling in Malta Spitfire

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/202k1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:51 PM
Oh yes about the navy,

The Italian Navy was a considerable menace at the beginning of the war, but a lack of fuel and SUFFICIENT air cover severely hampered proper training and active military operations.
The British were just better trained and had AIRCRAFT CARRIERS. Italian naval general complained to mussonlini about no aircraft carriers. Mussolini said italy is one big aircraft carrier... so.
Need i remind you again of the manned torpedos... don't talk to me of lack of italian bravery again. Moron.
What country are you from tosser... don't have the nads to post eh?


---------------------------------------
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, where as the Jerries will run." Beurling in Malta Spitfire

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/202k1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 06:55 PM
Would you all stop that now please?

OK once again: nothing against Italians i didn't mean to start a discussion about the bravery of Italians here as you can't generalize that (my fault in first post first think then write, right?)

some comments about what was said here:

1st You cannot call the Italian and Romanian forces at Stalingrad cowards. They were badly equipped and the russians knew that and put all their force there. That has nothing to do with being cowards.

2nd You can't compare the great Roman Empire with Italy as well as they are 2 different ppl, if you would do some research on that.

3rd Italy is indeed famous for switching sides(and that not only once as someone said) but that is more a political issue and has nothing to do with Italians themselves or with bravery.


Anyway i can just appologize for my stupid generalizations about bravery in the first post once again.

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif


Message Edited on 07/28/0306:01PM by Gershy

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:01 PM
flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.
-
-

Flamins, I'd give you some history lesson and try to explain what a civil war is, if I'd only trust that an ignorant can understand.
Btw, you forgot to add to your crappy post that all the Italians have moustaches, drink red wine and play mandolinos.
You trimmed your brain too much, ASSHAT! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Eat more pizza, it will help.

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/ass1.jpg

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>



Message Edited on 07/28/0308:24PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:06 PM
How can anyone declare the whole population of a nation cowards? This is genaralization to a degree I have never seen before. And only morons generalize.

http://www.animatedgif.net/funny/chickenexplode_e0.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:15 PM
flamins,

is not possible we have to hear again comments like yours.

Italian soldier cowards? You are only a poor IDIOT.

http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:21 PM
Don Corleone's really angry about this malicious thread: He's going to have to deal with you personally.

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/33139.jpg


---------------------------------------
Greetings from Monterey, California, USA!

http://www.seaviewinncarmel.com/carmel.jpg


Mors Ianua Vitae (sed mori nolo!)

-Artes Latinae (L186 Anon)-



Message Edited on 07/28/03‚ 11:22AM by MackZ

Message Edited on 07/28/0311:23AM by MackZ

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:21 PM
Hmm this thread brought me hunger.. i might as well order Pizza /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif thx italians.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:31 PM
MackZ wrote:
- Don Corleone's really angry about this malicious
- thread: He's going to have to deal with you
- personally.


LOL... he's gonna "make you an offer you can't refuse". /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:41 PM
Dear pdog1,

Thanks for your wonderful defence of Italian sabotage - I mean "heroic" - missions. Yeah, they definitely make me rethink my whole view of Italian "bravery". Still, to help you in your future posting, i thought I would lend a hand with a little something we intelligent people call "spelling". Here's your post with some corrections



pdog1 wrote:
- Flamins is an ignorant assclown, never mind him.
- Seems he doesn't like italians... maybe the mafia

- extorted (no such word)

his dads (dad's)

money. British hardly flew
- gladiators in malta...

thats (that's)

a stupid myth. When the


- "onslought" (onslaught)

came they had hurricanes and then
- spitfires. Also, germans WITH the italians couldn't
- beat malta, it didn't matter

anyways (anyway)

since Operation
- Torch happened and Hitler did not want to invade.

If you think stalingrad was lost of the italians and
- not by the germans, (um, let's not even try to sort this out)

your (you're)

brain dead.
- Common history has not been kind to the italians and
- the french.. but this what garbage you read and

- belive. (believe)

- Italy had idiot leadership (and I don't include ONLY
- Mussolini), inadequate equipment, a wrong
- organization and logistics,

unsufficient (insufficient)

industry,
- old weapons, mad tactics and no strategic plan at
- all; it could only lose. Why continue to insist
- again and again and again on these stories about
- morale, cowardice and so on? And they still fought!
-
-
- Whoever still adheres to the myth that Italians
- behaved "cowardly" in World War II should read the
- book
- "War in Italy, 1943-45: A Brutal Story" by Richard
- Lamb
- The author, a former British liaison officer with
- the Royal Italian Army, tells the story of the
- events between the fall of Mussolini and the end of
- the war from an Italian point of view and reveals
- some astounding facts that I believe few people,
- even if greatly intersted in the Second World War,
- have ever heard about. Here are some of them:
-
-- The Italian "Decima Mas" division put 73.000 tons of British shipping out of action in Mediterranean ports with two-man human torpedoes (mini-submarines with an explosive charge manned by a crew of two who steered the sub in the direction of the target and then tried to get away swimming before it hit), for the loss of only six men. Their most effective operation was in Alexandria harbour on the night of 18 December 1941, when they damaged the British battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant so badly that they took many months to repair.
--
- The "Decima Mas", "Nembo" and "Folgore" divisions,
- as well as Italian SS units, fought with distinction
- against the allies at Anzio. Even Kesselring was
- impressed.
- Some things i just rememberd from that book.
Well, to say that the Italian Army

loose (lose)

all the
- campaign it started is one thing and it is a matter
- of fact. Sayng that italians are cowards is not.
- If the Italian Army had something it was (at least
- till 1943) the bravery of

theyr (their)

soldiers (wait,
- don't start laughing yet). The reasons why the
- Italian Military history is a one of glorious
- defeats are more complex and don't touch the humble
- soldier who most of the time fought with bravery
- under objective condition of inferiority in
- equipment and command.
- About the italian in russia...
-
- In Russia on the Don-River Sforzesca and Vicenza
- division were simply overflood by the russian tanks
- (the Christmas Battle in Italian literature), again
- fighting with rifles against 34 tons armoured
- vehicles (no efective anti-tank guns). The Alpini of
- the "Julia" were then moved from there trenches at
- the Don and displaced in the open steppe to face the
- russians now coming from south and resisted then for
- nearly a month in the deep Russian winter without
- adequate equipment and completely in the open. They
- fought then theyr way back together with the
- "Tridentina" till Nikoljewka, where they managed to
- finally brake out from the cul de sac created by the
- Red Army (many German, Hungarian and soldiers from
- other countries have to thank these men if they
- managed to come back from Russia). Remarkable is,
- that the Red Army itself, as enemy, recognized in a
- war communicate that the sole Corpo d'Armata Alpino
- could considerate itself unbeaten on russian soil.
- The fact that the Italian Army can award itself with
- the last cavalry charge in military history, the one
- at Isbusenskij in august 1942 is a witness of this:

- gallandry (gallantry)

and obsolescence.
-
-

-

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:44 PM
flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.
-
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ROTFLOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh, god!
Please flamins keep it coming: it's real fun!!!

BTW, out of curiosity: was it your girlfriend or your wife the one you found in bed with that "coward"?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:45 PM
Italian leaders lacked a modern war strategics understanding, for example Mussolini used to say that a/c carriers were science fiction weapons in which he didn't believe...

italian ppl are just like ppl in general, some are brave, others are not and general comments like "Italians are cowards" is racism pure and simple

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:47 PM
Flamins, a good Italian tip.
Refresh your poor exhausted brain

http://images.google.it/images?q=tbn:Gqgmi93RMBsC:www.aquablue.on.ca/images/bidet.jpg

and simply STFU

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:51 PM
Abraxa lascia perdere,tanto quello il bidet non sa neanche cosa sia! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Ciao! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Abraxa wrote:
- Flamins, a good Italian tip.
- Refresh your poor exhausted brain
-
- <img
- src="http://images.google.it/images?q=tbn:Gqgmi93R
- MBsC:www.aquablue.on.ca/images/bidet.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 07:57 PM
Fastfreddy74 wrote:
- Abraxa lascia perdere,tanto quello il bidet non sa
- neanche cosa sia!

LOL, Freddy!

Io non sono ne meno italiano, ma questo idiot mi sta rompendo le palle!

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg


Message Edited on 07/28/0311:57AM by cuski

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:00 PM
cuski wrote:
-
- As I said.. it has nothing to do with the fact that
- they're Macchis... I noticed the same thing
- occasionally with other aircraft... it's like they
- don't pick up that you're there. Try playing
- consecutive missions in the QMB - you'll notice that
- 1 out of 4 or perhaps 5 missions, this happens.
-
http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg
-


I don't know. I just saw that today with the Macchis and once against some romanian fighters too. That's why I asked if Oleg maybe focused on flightmodels for Russian and German planes and the FM for not so widely used AI planes was done in a not so detailed way if you know what i mean. That might just be my impression. Would have to do some tests to find out about that. But you mean it happens in 1 out of 4 in general? i haven't seen this behaviour of russian planes but i don't fly qmb missions too often.

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:01 PM
Now then people, let's not get too upset because our politically correct worlds of fancy have been slightly rocked. Of course, being liberal-minded fairies, you all want to believe that all men are sweet, fluffy individuals and no evil generalisations can ever be made about anything. Sure, now that you're done with protesting against the war in Iraq, you got some pansy-juice left over to pour all over history. Good thing too, or you might have to wake up to the fact that there are dangerous nations, aggressive peoples and - yes - cowardly countries too.

So to awake you from your crazy flower-power world of peace and happiness, I would ask that you look up a little history and start to consider the difference between a generalisation and something called a truism. I think you'll find that I am dealing in the latter.

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:02 PM
Gershy wrote:
- I don't know. I just saw that today with the Macchis
- and once against some romanian fighters too. That's
- why I asked if Oleg maybe focused on flightmodels
- for Russian and German planes and the FM for not so
- widely used AI planes was done in a not so detailed
- way if you know what i mean. That might just be my
- impression. Would have to do some tests to find out
- about that. But you mean it happens in 1 out of 4 in
- general? i haven't seen this behaviour of russian
- planes but i don't fly qmb missions too often.

It happened quite consistently to me with flying against the P-51 and some variants of the P-47.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:04 PM
*Sigh*

Variation on the same concept.
Flamins overwhelmed by his culture concerning history of nations... how sad... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>


Message Edited on 07/28/0309:06PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:12 PM
truism: flamins is an ignorant jagoff.

generalisation: to conclude something about national character and attributes from twisting the results of some battles.



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:20 PM
flamins, hmm nothing to say but corret my speeling, which is not even an issue.
That information came from italian sources, rougly translated by my self so.
Oh when British sink Italian ships its OK.
But when Italians sink British ships its sabotage?
What world do you live in?
Whats sabotage to you?
You having to say about what i have wrote which is the truth because you are a dolt who only makes assumptions.
And when you assume you make an *** out of you and me.
Your the biggest assclown i've ever seen!

---------------------------------------
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, where as the Jerries will run." Beurling in Malta Spitfire

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/202k1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 08:28 PM
Thanks for sharing Flamins, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif you live up to your name.

So your point is that "there are dangerous nations, aggressive peoples and - yes - cowardly countries too." and that this is a truism rather than a generalisation.

truism: Pronunciation: 'tr√ľ-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1708
: an undoubted or self-evident truth; especially : one too obvious for mention

generalisation: Main Entry: gen‚∑er‚∑al‚∑iza‚∑tion
Pronunciation: "jen-r&-l&-'zA-sh&n, "je-n&-
Function: noun
Date: 1761
1 : the act or process of generalizing
2 : a general statement, law, principle, or proposition

generalize: 1 : to form generalizations; also : to make vague or indefinite statements

From Mirriam-Webster (hence incorrect /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif American spellings).

The reason you are an ASSHAT is not because you are making a making a self-evident statement (truism) nor is it because you are making a vague or indefinite statement (generalisation) but rather because you FAIL TO DISTINGUISH between the military success of Italy (poor) and the character of Italian nationals (cowardly).

Your arguments are implicitly based on the argument that military success = bravery of the troops; whereas the bravery of the troops is only one factor of many (equipment, communications, leadership, etc...).

In addition your argument that "nations" have characteristics which are imprinted on their nationals is one that denies individuality and is repugnant to myself and others because it is at the root of bigotry: Italians are cowards, Oklahomans are hicks, Arabs are dangerous jihadists, blacks are untrustworthy...

This is not to say that we (those who do not share your opinion) "want to believe that all men are sweet, fluffy individuals" but rather that within every every group (Italians, Oklahomans, Arabs, blacks) there is a variety of good/evil, cowardly/brave etc... people and to take one of those characteristics and tar all the members of any group with the same brush is not only ignorant but often dangerous (especially to the grouped being tarred).

Anyways- believe what you like-
have a nice day, sir.
Cold_Gambler

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 09:20 PM
u know guys, i'm kinda immune to these examples of poor racism, i used to be pi$$ed off about it, but now that i'm a lil bit wiser than yesterday i can't do nothing but smile about it. Some americans still feel like they're better than europeans in general, and they keep on joking about french inconcludence, or italian maphious attitude and so on, but apart from being pretty boring as they always say the same $hit, i'm more than happy to receive these coloured comments as long as u keep on bringing us money coming here for tourism, since yr country has ...uhm... let me see....awright... nothing under a cultural point of view and the average museum u have is "the biggest pumpkin of texas museum". So no offence taken, i just dont get what all "those" american are bragging about, yr country is like a teenager: so powerful but soooo immature...

SJ

http://www.il2sturmovik.it ( <A HREF=)" target=_blank>http://www.il2sturmovik.it</a>

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

http://www.il2sturmovik.it

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 09:52 PM
We have a mission with 16 mc 202's escorting "musollini" in a JU. The AI works just fine. As a matter of fact, the low speed capabilities of the 202 were a pain in the butt to overcome at first.

Did you remember to assign them a target in the FMB? The behavior you describe sounds like you may have forgotten to tell them to attack a certain flight when building it.

http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/phist.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 10:09 PM
NO Mod in sight? Or are they too busy to do something useful?


Flamins, you're an ignorant a$$hole.
Even if the Italians were not successful in WWII, it hardly makes them cowards.

You must feel pretty strong behind your computer, but I bet you could never say this kind of stuff in RL to an Italian.

Now, just STFU, dimwit

<Center>



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1.5/10 Troll Rating from USAFHelos
(but working on it /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif - Woot! 7.25 points awarded make 8.75/10)




<Center>



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1.5/10 Troll Rating from USAFHelos
(but working on it /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif - Woot! 7.25 points awarded make 8.75/10)

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 11:02 PM
Flamins tell them the true story becouse you hate italians....
I can tell you all: his girlfriend meet a very nice and romantic italian boy and she fell in love to this guy. Now they are married and they have to nice children and you can undestand the poor Flamis alone in his toilett with his **** in his hand can 't be happy about this.
Don 't worry Flamins one day you will meet another girl, anyway you can buy a nice pair of gloves,,,,

See you

5SA_Albe

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 11:07 PM
Hehe Albe, funny!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

---------------------------------------
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, where as the Jerries will run." Beurling in Malta Spitfire

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/202k1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 11:14 PM
Phist it was in QMB not FMB so they should do it hemselves

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 11:36 PM
I never speak ill of Italians /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Fogedaboutit eh!

But on a serious note, the Italians had bad leadership so they weren't as effective as Germany or the Allies. Also most units were equiped for the most part with poor equipment, and conscripts usually aren't very motivated to begin with, couple these with mediocre training.

This is not a flame, no disrespect is intended towards the Italian Soldiers who died in the war, I feel bad for both them and their families, most of 'em just average guys in a bad situation (like most soldiers in war) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:05 AM
roybaty wrote:
- I never speak ill of Italians /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Fogedaboutit eh!
-
-
- But on a serious note, the Italians had bad
- leadership so they weren't as effective as Germany
- or the Allies. Also most units were equiped for the
- most part with poor equipment, and conscripts
- usually aren't very motivated to begin with, couple
- these with mediocre training.
-
- This is not a flame, no disrespect is intended
- towards the Italian Soldiers who died in the war, I
- feel bad for both them and their families, most of
- 'em just average guys in a bad situation (like most
- soldiers in war) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .
-
- Roy Baty
- III/7/JG2

Roy, thank you for your post. As an Italian I don't find anything offensive in your message and I serenely accept serious and documented arguments on our history.
If we speak of the Italian leadership - the King and Mussolini for first - during WW2, I can completely agree on a totally negative opinion. The way they behaved before and during WW2 doesn't deserve the lesser respect IMO.
What you say about Italian equipment is equally right. Italy wasn't ready for the war, the generals were aware of it, but Mussolini hoped to a ready German victory he could possibly exploit to his advantage. After the 11th of September 1943 we knew even a civil war, while the King was on the run and our soldiers dying to defend desperately Rome. After that date, the fall of Fascism and all the confusion that followed, half of the Italians were fighting with Germans, the other half internated or fighting Nazism and Fascism, while civils were dying under the bombings. Someone can consider this as a joke but actually it was a tragedy still burning on our skin. It deeply divided our country till these recent days.
Yes, Italian leadership behaved as bad as they could do, but this doesn't mean that our poor soldiers didn't die with honour in Africa, Russia and Italy, often deserving the repsect of their adversaries and of great fighters like Rommel or Galland, astonished when they saw in which conditions our soldiers were forced to fight for Mussolini's hazards.
What I say is furtherly proved by the sacrifice and massacre of 600.000 Italian soldiers during WW1. I could furtherly propose the evidence of many heroic facts to support what I say, and I generally and simply think that the dead soldiers of any country deserve respect!
Surely the ignorant and unrespectful words of the first superficial asshat passing by won't change history.

Cheers


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:20 AM
Abraxa wrote:
- Roy, thank you for your post. As an Italian I don't
- find anything offensive in your message and I
- serenely accept serious and documented arguments on
- our history.
- If we speak of the Italian leadership - the King and
- Mussolini for first - during WW2, I can completely
- agree on a totally negative opinion. The way they
- behaved before and during WW2 doesn't deserve the
- lesser respect IMO.
- What you say about Italian equipment is equally
- right. Italy wasn't ready for the war, the generals
- were aware of it, but Mussolini hoped to a ready
- German victory he could possibly exploit to his
- advantage. After the 11th of September 1943 we knew
- even a civil war, while the King was on the run and
- our soldiers dying to defend desperately Rome. After
- that date, the fall of Fascism and all the confusion
- that followed, half of the Italians were fighting
- with Germans, the other half internated or fighting
- Nazism and Fascism, while civils were dying under
- the bombings. Someone can consider this as a joke
- but actually it was a tragedy still burning on our
- skin. It deeply divided our country till these
- recent days.
- Yes, Italian leadership behaved as bad as they could
- do, but this doesn't mean that our poor soldiers
- didn't die with honour in Africa, Russia and Italy,
- often deserving the repsect of their adversaries and
- of great fighters like Rommel or Galland, astonished
- when they saw in which conditions our soldiers were
- forced to fight for Mussolini's hazards.
- What I say is furtherly proved by the sacrifice and
- massacre of 600.000 Italian soldiers during WW1. I
- could furtherly propose the evidence of many heroic
- facts to support what I say, and I generally and
- simply think that the dead soldiers of any country
- deserve respect!
- Surely the ignorant and unrespectful words of the
- first superficial asshat passing by won't change
- history.
-
- Cheers


Abraxa, well said... IMO, the same can be said about France.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:20 AM
Why blame the people or attribute qualities to them glorified by their leaders? If you use this logic we can then know with certainty that all Germans are Racist, all Russians are psychoic, all Japanese are backstabbers and all Italians are cowards.

Shame on you.

morsmortis

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:49 AM
German leadership better? Think not, at least the Italians had the honor not to turn death into a commercial endeaver.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 03:40 AM
Lets get this over with, THE MC202 HAS A BUG IN IT!, IT MIGHT WILL GET FIXED IN THE PATCH, OR WHEN IT COMES OUT IN THE ADDON. THE ENTIRE GAME IS BUGGY, The MC202 did great in IL-2, but FB messed up the entire game and stuff, the patch will fix everything, so quit with the Italian bashing, its not thier fault its Olegs fault for not testing FB good enough before he released it. He was under pressure from you people to release it.

http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/MC202-003.jpg
"THE ITALIAN STALLION!"

Message Edited on 07/28/03‚ 07:41PM by Wetwilly87

Message Edited on 07/28/0307:43PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 05:32 AM
Hmmmm. It certainly does sound strange that those italian AI planes show no initiative. I've never seen that happen on my machine though...

As for Flamins comment on those "cowardly" Italians , I find it rather amusing since they only conqured most of the known world 1,500 years ago.

Looks like somebody flunked his ancient history.

Capt. Arnold

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 05:52 AM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:09 AM
true captain but you dont have to go that far back.Italians have proven their bravery for centuries.Italy didnt decide suddenly to switch sides because the Axis was losing.Where from your *** flamins did you pull that out of?
Im a big fan of Italian culture and admired it.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:35 AM
flamins wrote:
- Seems tyo me like this is thr most accurate AI
- modelling in any flight sim ever. The only way it
- could be improved would be if the italian planes
- could find a way to swap sides mid-way through the
- battle. Let's face it, the Italians are possibly
- the worlds greatest cowards, and no amount of pizza
- or pasta is going to make them difficult to shoot
- down.
-
-

HEY FLAMINS, HOW ABOUT A NICE BIG CUP OF SHUT THE F#$K UP!!

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:42 AM
Back to your original post Gershy:
-Why are those Italian fighters so passive in the sim?

I experimented yesterday setting up Fiat G50's against comparable Russian aircraft (opponents they would have met in the 1940-41 period, I-153, I16, MiG3 variants).
Didn't try this with the MC202 but the Fiat was far superior to the I's and MiG's. The Fiat's fought aggresively and ruled the sky after a few minutes, every time. I tried this at low level (500m) and medium (3000m), using QMB, head-on attack. All AI-levels on Ace.

So I don't think your experience is applicable to all Italian a/c in FB.

I seem to remember reading that in real combat both the MC202 and G50 were good aircraft for their time. Good handling, reliable and equal to or better than russian a/c of the period. And they look stylish too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 08:37 AM
Well, my grandpa's hardly earned Iron Cross (2 yrs as military phisician near Stalingrad...) is somewhere. Sad he's dead, I'd have to say that he had to give it back because we're all cowards... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I really don't know where Flamins got his brain. Probably he was somewhere shooting arabs, indians, frenchs, mexicans, liberals, hippies, and...

OMG, after all it's a IBTL post...

But thanks Flamins, that's another mindless stupid that trashes a good post.

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:14 AM
talking about the original topic, the 202 set at the ace level always beated the living $hit out of my P-40, and they r aggressive as hell!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

SJ

http://www.il2sturmovik.it

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

fluke39
07-29-2003, 11:52 AM
"since yr country has ...uhm... let me see....awright... nothing under a cultural point of view and the average museum u have is "the biggest pumpkin of texas museum". So no offence taken, i just dont get what all "those" american are bragging about, yr country is like a teenager: so powerful but soooo immature..."

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

by using this quote please note i mean no offence to those americans who do, unlike flamins, actually have more than a slight flicker of intelligent thought in their heads.- as at least i understand that a country isn't made up of identical people.



Bender2k2 wrote:
-- I really don't know where Flamins got his brain.

thats probably cos he hasn't really got one.



i don't understand why some people find it neccesary or amusing to make generalised commments about other nationalities - especially where WWII is concerned - the sheer fact that every country that was involved experienced so much misery and suffering - and that so many men died in the service of their countries - should be enough to silence any comments of this nature before the authors hands even reach the keyboard

some people will never learn /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:25 PM
There is a war memorial just down the road from me- has a massive list of French men who lost their lives during the first and second world war. On the same memorial is a list of Italian men who lost their lives during the first war- allies during the first, enemies during the second but all on the same memorial.And all of them brave.
Enough said.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:27 PM
Try using the FMB. None of the planes are very aggresive in the QMB. Lay their waypoints, then pick a waypoint closest to where you will merge and assign your flight as the 202's target. Set them to ACE and you'll get all the aggressive you can stand.

http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/phist.jpg

Tully__
07-29-2003, 01:04 PM
This is going no-where fast. Locked, and goodbye to the bad guy.

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Salut
Tully