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Noxx0s
12-31-2009, 02:57 PM
Hey guys, just installed 1946, read the "nugget" thread so I practised take off and landing a bunch of times with LA-5, and a a bunch of dogfights with spitfires vs. Mig 3s (purposefully giving myself the edge of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

I have a lot of questions now.

I'm playing with icons on but all the actual flight mechanics realistic.

My single biggest frustation right now is that I simply cannot keep up with friendly or any fighters.

I made a quick vid of a ME-262 takeoff, where I very quickly fall way behind the rest of my squadron. I try to be mindful of trim, slow rate of climb etc., but no dice. (tried the same thing with a bunch of different scenarios with different planes, etc. always same problem)

Here's the vid, comments welcome (it's only like 3 minutes so don't worry):

http://rapidshare.com/files/32...4/newbie262.TRK.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/328562724/newbie262.TRK.html)

I'm a little confused about trim though. The elevator trim's effect seems pretty obvious, but the other two I'm not quite sure about their effect because no matter how many times I mash the buttons nothing much seems to be happening. Also, is it a "hold down button to increase trim" kind of a deal or do you have to press it repeatedly? Any ideas for the best way to map those? (I have thrustmaster HOTAS) Do you need to manage trim in a combat situation? (would seem difficult to me to manage that, the stick AND aiming at the same time)

If I can manage to learn to just keep pace with friendly aircraft I'll be very happy!

A few other random questions:

1) Flaps.., what's their purpose? Am I right in understanding they're basically "air brakes"? In which case why would you use them for taking off? (I see on a lot of planes "take off flaps"). What about in combat?? I was watching a youtube vid and the guy talked about the enemy plane using flaps to "gain an advantage)
2. In the nugget thread there's this long quoted post about this:


6. If not, try to reduce the maximum deflection value (i.e. the last value). For example, if you are using 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 100,
try 50 54 58 62 66 70 74 78 82. For BnZ planes, a fairly low value can be used, because you can't pull maximum deflection without snap-rolling anyway. For TnB plane, you should be more conservative. What on earth is that talking about?
3. I notice I get very jerky when trying to chase/shoot an enemy fighter and when making slight movements to adjust aim I tend to overcompensate a lot. Any suggestions?
4. All the miscellaneous fuel controls (supercharger, mix etc.)... do I need to use these? Are they important?
5. Whenever I use the rudder it seems very jerky. Am I doing something wrong?

I will definitely have more later but this is good for now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. thanks guys.

megalopsuche
12-31-2009, 03:12 PM
Sorry, but the AI cheats. In a lot of cases the only way to keep up with your flight is to set the autopilot and let the AI cheat for you.

Once you get online you'll find your opponents to be a bit slower than what you see offline.

Ba5tard5word
12-31-2009, 03:26 PM
My single biggest frustation right now is that I simply cannot keep up with friendly or any fighters.

For one thing, if you have Complex Engine Management on, you need to know how to do CEM properly to keep your speed as high as possible. I'll post quickly later on the main things you need to know about CEM, I learned it myself recently after playing the game for well over a year without it on.

Also the AI will usually fly faster than you can, for one thing they never overheat so they can run at max throttle with radiator closed forever without blowing their engine, unlike you. For now I would advise that you fly as the leader in a group, rather than as a wingman, that way the other planes will follow you rather than the other way around.


I'm a little confused about trim though. The elevator trim's effect seems pretty obvious, but the other two I'm not quite sure about their effect because no matter how many times I mash the buttons nothing much seems to be happening.

Trim tweaks your flight surfaces (elevators, ailerons etc) to keep you level. If you go faster you will need one level of trim to keep your nose level, and if you're going slower, like at 50% throttle, you'll need another level of trim to keep your nose from constantly dropping.

Most planes in Il-2 only have elevator trim, which affects how much your nose moves up and down, I know the German fighters only have elevator trim. British planes tend to also have rudder trim available, but if you fly with engine torque on, it doesn't really matter much and I never use it. American planes tend to have aileron trim too which affects your movement to the left and right, but I never really use this either, elevator trim affects you more. When you fly a mission your plane will start off with trim automatically set high to keep your nose pointing up as you take off. Then I set the trim down some so my nose is more level for flying near max throttle--with the Bf-109 I tap the trim down key 10 times and it works for me for the rest of the mission. I don't really bother with trim except for that one point at the beginning of the mission, but if you fly at high altitude you have to use it more because air is thinner and you need more trim to keep your nose up.

Just hold down the trim up or down key (I have it set as ctrl + up and down keys on the keyboard) for a while with your hands off your flight stick and you'll see your nose dip up or down.




1) Flaps.., what's their purpose? Am I right in understanding they're basically "air brakes"?

Sort of. When they lower they increase drag on your plane but also give you more lift. When taking off, set them to "take off" and it gives you some help to gain lift and avoid a stall. Then set them to flaps up when in level flight. When landing you can put them to "landing" and it helps you stay stable at low speed as you go in to land.

Flaps are really useful to cut down your speed but also to avoid stalls--if you get enough practice in a plane you will learn when it will tend to stall in maneuvers or when you lose a lot of speed--putting flaps down will keep you more stable.

WARNING: the major danger with using flaps is that if you use them at high speed, they will get jammed. You'll get a "flaps jammed" message on screen and they'll get stuck in position and you won't be able to move them up or down. This is really annoying if you are in a battle with a fast fighter, because it greatly reduces your speed and makes your nose go up depending on how low the flaps went.

So what I like to do for flaps is to greatly cut my speed when in an intense fighter battle--if we're looping all over the place and I'm behind him and going too fast and don't want to overtake him, I'll lower my flaps fully, which cuts my speed and makes me more maneuverable at low speed without making me stall as much. It takes a lot of practice though, and you shouldn't do it over around 300 to 350kph.



2. In the nugget thread there's this long quoted post about this:

6. If not, try to reduce the maximum deflection value (i.e. the last value). For example, if you are using 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 100,
try 50 54 58 62 66 70 74 78 82. For BnZ planes, a fairly low value can be used, because you can't pull maximum deflection without snap-rolling anyway. For TnB plane, you should be more conservative.

What on earth is that talking about?

I think it's about joystick settings. If you go to settings then input you should come to the joystick sensitivity setting screen, which has a bunch of numbers. Maybe reread the joystick setting section and see if it explains better.


3. I notice I get very jerky when trying to chase/shoot an enemy fighter and when making slight movements to adjust aim I tend to overcompensate a lot. Any suggestions?

You may need to change your joystick sensitivity settings to give you more control when trying to make small movements with your nose to fire on the target without wobbling and swinging all over the place, see if someone with your stick type has suggestions for good numbers.

Ba5tard5word
12-31-2009, 03:37 PM
This is a REALLY good page on CEM (Complex Engine Mgmt) stuff on Mission4Today, I suggest you read each part carefully.

http://www.mission4today.com/i...=show&kid=249&page=1 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=249&page=1)


Mainly if you have CEM and Engine Overheat on, the main thing you need to know how to use is the radiator. With it open you get more drag and your plane moves a bit slower, but your engine heats up less. With it closed you'll go faster but you'll overheat sooner. When you overheat you need to reduce throttle and open radiator to get the engine temp back to normal, I usually find that having the rad open and throttle at 90% for a while gets it back to normal pretty quickly.

Supercharger is only on certain planes and is automatic on others. On many planes it's set at something like 2 at the beginning of the mission, so make sure to try to set it to 1 before you take off. 1 is for flying at sea level, if you have it set to 2 or 3 or whatever at sea level your engine will really underperform. But when you go higher in altitude you'll need to set it higher to get more performance from your engine, I think around 4000m is where most planes switch but I think it depends.

Fuel mix can be lowered if you go at higher altitudes but if you fly at sea level you don't really need to mess with it.

Prop pitch is useful to use when diving because if you have it set to 100% when in a steep dive your engine can get overrevved and break. SEt it lower like 30% to avoid that. But otherwise I don't really mess with it. Some planes like the Bf-109 and Fw-190 have auto prop pitch so you never need to worry about it.

So yeah basically if you're only flying at sea level, first just learn how to deal with the radiator. If you want to fly higher then learn the other stuff like fuel mix and supercharger. Again read the M4T page I posted to get better details.

K_Freddie
12-31-2009, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
3. I notice I get very jerky when trying to chase/shoot an enemy fighter and when making slight movements to adjust aim I tend to overcompensate a lot. Any suggestions?
Relax... just 'squeeze' the trigger.. don't pull it.. and the whole stick as well.
Caress the stick as if it were... (I won't say no more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )


Originally posted by IcyScythe:
5. Whenever I use the rudder it seems very jerky. Am I doing something wrong?
Relax... let the plane fly itself

Noxx0s
12-31-2009, 04:13 PM
Thanks for that link Ba5stard, looks good, reading it now.

So how do I know what planes have what? Is there a database where I can find out this info easily? (like which planes have auto features etc.) Also I know some planes are better at tight turns, diving etc. I just don't know this stuff at all, so if there was a source where I could just look up and read "BF-109 performs best at a suchandsuch rate of climb" it'd be awesome.

I've seen many people say AI cheat and you can't catch up but I've also seen people who say it's possible, so I dunno, but I'd like to be able to do it. Although it's tempting to just skip straight to MP, I want to learn how to fly decently first.

Also you mention a lot of planes have trim only for elevator, so is there any way to counter the leaning left/right (I guess from torque right?) without continually adjusting?

And also, do I need to manage trim when in a combat situation and diving, twisting all over the place?

LASTLY, is there somewhere that explains what all the controls in the cockpit signify?

Oh, and double lastly, somewhere that discusses tactics, how to execute a proper turn/dive etc.?

Ba5tard5word
12-31-2009, 04:20 PM
I wouldn't say the AI cheat in terms of speed, it's mainly just that they'll never overheat so they can run at max speed all day while you have to cool off your engine regularly to avoid your engine blowing up. AI planes usually fly at cruise speed when not engaged in combat, so if you're flying a mission where the planes are zipping off into the distance, the mission designer maybe unrealistically set them to go at max speed instead of the default cruise speed (300kph)

Again, fly as the leader of your flight instead of as wingman and you won't have to keep up with them and hear the AI flight leader whining at you to keep up.

Maybe try QMB and just try flying against different planes, you'll be the lead plane in your flight. Learning the commands for your wingman is useful...basically you just need to tell them to attack fighters or bombers and they'll do it though they are a bit unpredictable.

Ba5tard5word
12-31-2009, 04:32 PM
So how do I know what planes have what? Is there a database where I can find out this info easily? (like which planes have auto features etc.)

There might be in the .pdf description manual for the in-game planes, someone recently gave me a link to an updated one on M4T, I'll try and find it later. Otherwise just try the different settings before taking off. Try lowering prop pitch, changing the radiator and changing supercharger. If you don't get any message on the screen, then the setting is auto.

The Bf-109 and Fw-190 have automatic prop pitch and superchargers, though I think for both you can turn the prop pitch to manual though I never do. They have radiators automatically set to an auto feature, but by hitting the radiator button you can open and close them like any other radiator. Also I think they have auto fuel mix. A lot of allied planes also have auto settings. Russian planes have almost all manual settings. Basically you just have to take the time to get to know the individual planes, some models of a plane will have manual radiator control then a later version will have auto rad.



Also I know some planes are better at tight turns, diving etc. I just don't know this stuff at all, so if there was a source where I could just look up and read "BF-109 performs best at a suchandsuch rate of climb" it'd be awesome.

Each plane performs differently, usually very markedly but sometimes in very subtle ways, you just have to get practice flying them. If you have questions just ask here, people are very knowledgeable and helpful.

Programs like Il2Compare and Hardball's Aircraft Viewer will give you data on each plane's performance and rate of climb, turn speed, etc so you can compare them, though the best way to get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of each plane is to take them up for a spin and get in a dogfight.


Also you mention a lot of planes have trim only for elevator, so is there any way to counter the leaning left/right (I guess from torque right?) without continually adjusting?

With all the control difficulty settings switched on, I really don't have a problem with planes pulling to the side, at higher throttles the torque usually balances out against the natural setting. If you have some of the difficulty settings off (can't remember which ones) then the planes will definitely pull more to the side because torque doesn't affect it.


And also, do I need to manage trim when in a combat situation and diving, twisting all over the place?

I don't but if I had a more convenient trim system I might.


LASTLY, is there somewhere that explains what all the controls in the cockpit signify?

Do you mean all the levers and dials and stuff? That manual I mentioned has it, I'll try and find it if nobody else has a link.


Oh, and double lastly, somewhere that discusses tactics, how to execute a proper turn/dive etc.?

Like I said each plane flies differently so practice is the best way to learn. Fly against the AI and you'll develop general tactics about what to do to win and how to fly without stalling or speed stalling (more on that some other time)

Urufu_Shinjiro
12-31-2009, 04:32 PM
I believe there is a .PDF aircraft guide in your game folder, haven't read it myself so not sure how much info is in there but it's a start.

As for keeping up with AI, well it's a matter of practice, when you first start flying you are constantly making little adjustments and each one will slow you down, whereas the AI are PERFECT. With practice you will get better at keeping up with the AI but it's never easy as they make no mistakes.

No rudder/aileron trim is just a matter of moving your stick to the right spot, nothing you can do about it, in WWII they actually had to fly their planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Yes you do have to manage trim in combat, no you will not have time, lol, but you'll learn to live with it and will eventually be able to make some adjustments in a dogfight but generally you have more important things to worry about.

To answer an earlier question, you would use combat flaps if you were in a tight turn and needed just that little extra turning power to make the shot, drop combat flaps and the nose will come around a little faster, for a little bit, but then you will trade speed for that.

For learning proper maneuvers etc, if you have the time to devote to it try the Basic Flight School at www.Joint-ops.com, (http://www.Joint-ops.com,) they are an online combat flight school for Il2.


EDIT: Lol, looks like B5 beat me to most of this while hunt-n-pecked!

Waldo.Pepper
12-31-2009, 04:34 PM
So how do I know what planes have what? Is there a database where I can find out this info easily?

There maybe such a resource, but I sure don't know it.

Basically if you are not the sort of fella to know such arcane details such as, what kind of oil FW-190's used in February of 1943. In the Crimea. On lets say Tuesdays. Then you may be over your head.

Bearcat will be along any minute to tell you to read the Nuggets thread in his sig, if you have not done so already. (And BTW it sure sounds like you have not. ) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Happy New Year FNG.

Noxx0s
12-31-2009, 04:35 PM
Ok and how do I navigate without looking at the map with icons? I hear them talking about vectors, are those directions for me?

Urufu_Shinjiro
12-31-2009, 04:45 PM
Most of the time those radio calls are for other flights, best to ignore them. Navigation can be a real pain, and it was back then too. It's all done by dead reckoning and landmarks etc. It will take practice to learn to navigate and frankly I still don't like to do it without the mini-map path on.

Ba5tard5word
12-31-2009, 05:38 PM
Here is the manual I was talking about.

http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3265 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3265)

It has detailed layouts of the cockpits of all planes available in Il-2 1946 version 4.09m, i.e. the latest version of the game with the latest official patch.

Also towards the front of it it has a table listing the controls available in each plane--whether it has prop pitch, radiator, supercharger etc, so yeah there actually is a way to see that before you fly. Also it lists the altitude where you should switch supercharger and fuel mix, I'm glad I know that now since it can differ a bit for each plane.

thefruitbat
12-31-2009, 05:43 PM
Ba5tard5word, check community help, happy new year http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TheGrunch
01-01-2010, 03:57 AM
The only thing I'll add to what Bas5tard has said is that rudder trim is actually really important, especially for keeping up with the AI. It makes dealing with torque on takeoff easier as well.
Anyway, if you're flying everywhere in a skid, you're never going to get to the same sort of speed the AI do. Look at the turn and slip indicator in the cockpit or the velocity vector icon in no-cockpit view to see whether you're in a side-slip. If you're flying a German aircraft though, you'll just have to use the rudder all the time and end up with a hefty right leg. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FlatSpinMan
01-01-2010, 05:02 AM
Lots of good questions here, and good answers too. Most of what I've typed is probably just echoing the above but what the hey?

COMPARING PLANES
You may want to check out a program called IL2 Compare. I think (never used it) it allows you to select pairs of planes and compare their performance details.

WHAT PlANE DOES WHAT "BEST"?
Honestly I'd just choose a plane you like, or maybe two, and work them out.
What planes do you tend to fly (and fly against)? Maybe we can make some general suggestions for things you should or shouldn't be doing.

FLAPS
In addition to the above, flaps can also help you turn tighter. The setting is Combat flaps. Just use it for a second when you want to turn tightly. It's also handy if you are pulling up from a dive and want to point the nose up faster. Just use it for a second, then return to Flaps Up, otherwise they'll jam and then you're out of the game, pretty much.


RADIATOR (COWL FLAPS)
This can have a big effect on your top speed. You can gain say, 20-30km/h extra with them fully closed or just barely open.

Fully open will create extra drag but keep the engine cool. Fully closed will make you more aerodynamic and therefore a bit faster, but your engine will overheat. In a longer mission that could be a problem.

It depends on the plane, but I tend to have them set to the smallest degree of opening. In the 109's this is setting 2.
Some British planes don't have manually controlled radiator settings.

KEEPING UP WITH THE AI
I could never do this. Now I find it hard to slow down enough to stay with them.

I think the main thing to consider is ENERGY.

When I started, if I wanted to climb quickly I pointed the nose up at a 45 degree angle or more, pushed the throttle forward and then wondered why I wasn't getting anywhere. Does this sound familiar?

It took me a long time to understand the idea of 'energy'.
Imagine you are riding a bike. Going down a steep hill you travel faster with little or no effort. Even if you stop pedalling, you will race along at a good clip. In this case, your energy state is positive (sorry, I can't think of the right word). Simply by starting in a high place and travelling to a low place you are able to convert the height into speed.
This is like diving in your plane.

Now imagine you are going uphill. The amount of effort is far greater and the speed is far lower. The steepness of the hill greatly affects the amount of effort needed, and the speed achieved.
Your energy state here is low. You are fighting against gravity to make progress.

This is like climbing in your plane.


When you take off, don't pull the nose up, even if the AI do. They have a cheating flight model which we don't.
Instead, keep the nose level or just above the horizon, trim the nose down a bit (in most planes), have flaps up, radiator just barely open and keep the throttle at say, 80%. You will find it hard to not climb in this case. Gradually you will be able to catch up to the AI.



NAVIGATING
1. Ignore most of the messages. Unfortunately they are invariably for other flights.
2. Honestly, I just use the little map with the flight path.
3. More realistically, in the briefing, look at the flight plan very carefully and make notes of significant landmarks before, after, around the intended flight path.
This can be pretty hard in older IL2 maps as they are wash in rivers and blobs of forest, plus, from altitude, small towns are hard to spot.
However, it can be done. Remember that you can zoom in on the map to get more detail of the area.

I hope that helps a bit.

M_Gunz
01-01-2010, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
My single biggest frustation right now is that I simply cannot keep up with friendly or any fighters.

There are different reasons for that and "AI cheats" is not much of an answer.

MOST often for new players it is about normal mission takeoff and getting to that first waypoint with your group who
are by the mission only flying at low cruise of perhaps 350kph which is a bit over 200mph. There are scramble missions
where the speed is maximum but those are not very often in the stock campaigns so don't worry about those for now, you
won't keep up on those till you're very, very good if ever.
On the average missions when you are in the back you will see the others take off and climb out. Number on mistake is
getting off the ground and trying to point your nose at them to follow before you've got your speed up. You really need
to stay low and get the speed up after getting gear and flaps up (if you used flaps for takeoff). Try to get around
300-320kph before nosing up and only nose up enough to keep or increase your speed, you should catch up before getting
to the waypoint and even have to slow down to avoid passing your teammates.

Then there are other things to do to cut your drag here and there, trim being one of them. Another one is to fly straight
which is not automatic, it's a realism and piloting thing. Props make the air around the plane spiral which hits wings
and tail and must be adjusted or compensated for differently at different speeds and power settings. Not doing that or
doing it wrong will result in the plane pointing in some other direction off to the side of where it is going. That is
called SLIP and if will not only slow you down but it will throw your gunnery off to some degree. You want the plane to
point where it is going and you want to use the rudder to do that either by trim or by control, there are planes like the
Bf109s that have no rudder trim for example. Needless to say that having pedals is an advantage in IL2!
On most of these planes you will find some kind of Slip gage, usually The Ball (little black ball in a curved 'smiley'
tube) but in Spitfires for example it's a needle in the Bank and Slip gage on the lower right instrument panel. My fave
is the miniature Ball at the base of the P-51 gunsights since I don't have to look down to see it, it's right there
when I make my shot. IRL you don't need to see it so much since you can feel the same force that pushes The Ball but in
sims you don't get that, or G's of any kind besides what you have at home. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Just practice flying outside combat
where you can keep an eye on your slip until you have a feel for how much rudder to use especially in turns and you'll
only need to check once in a while same as the speedometer on your car.

When you are going slow, especially close to the ground don't use aileron to keep your wings level. On landings one wing
will often tend to drop for example. Rudder away from the drop, a little will do to pick the wing up. Using side stick
will cause the wing you're trying to pick up drag even more and possibly cause it to stall. Trying to fix that with more
side stick will have you into a spin and then cartwheeling down the runway.

Once you can fly straight and trimmed then work on engine and prop management, you can learn the one with the other
toggled off even.

Noxx0s
01-01-2010, 12:42 PM
Thanks for all the great tips guys... started to get a bit more comfortable in my LA-5 and got a few FW-190 kills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

A few more questions though...

About the "slip" thing I'm really struggling with this. I watch the AI fighters when they come in at someone's 6 and they just "slide" smoothly right behind them and open up. For me it's more a case of constantly weaving off too far to the right or left. I'm guessing this has something to do with how I'm using my rudder. What's the proper way to "slide" around?

It's really a problem when I'm trying to land too, I'm based on a snow airfield so it's really hard to see till you're like 200 meters away and I always have trouble adjusting my flight path at that point.

Also about the ball thing, I noticed sometimes when it looks and feels like I'm flying straight (even with my hands off the controls), the ball is totally off center, far left or far right, and if I adjust rudder to fix this, then of course the plane goes off to the right or left and starts losing altitude. Any ideas what's going on here?

thanks

(registered at that flight school btw, still waiting for confirmation email, thanks for heads up)

Oh and last thing, what are the "rules" for bailing out? One mission I lost my elevator controls and so got some altitude and bailed out probably 100 meters from my base, and was able to "apply" and go to the next mission, but a couple missions later I had to bail out again but this time it wouldn't let me continue. This happened twice and both times I was well behind the Russian border and probably 300-400 meters from the base...

na85
01-01-2010, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
1) Flaps.., what's their purpose? Am I right in understanding they're basically "air brakes"? In which case why would you use them for taking off? (I see on a lot of planes "take off flaps"). What about in combat?? I was watching a youtube vid and the guy talked about the enemy plane using flaps to "gain an advantage)

Flaps increase the camber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_%28aerodynamics%29) and the Critical Angle of Attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack) of the wing.

To summarize it real quick: By adding camber to the wing, you increase the max lift coefficient, which has the effect of lowering the stall speed. So flaps allow an aircraft to fly slower without stalling. They also allow you to pull back harder on the stick without stalling.

A symptom of this effect is increased drag, which is why, in a pinch, you can use the flaps as an airbrake. However air braking is not the primary function of flaps.

Urufu_Shinjiro
01-01-2010, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
Thanks for all the great tips guys... started to get a bit more comfortable in my LA-5 and got a few FW-190 kills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

A few more questions though...

About the "slip" thing I'm really struggling with this. I watch the AI fighters when they come in at someone's 6 and they just "slide" smoothly right behind them and open up. For me it's more a case of constantly weaving off too far to the right or left. I'm guessing this has something to do with how I'm using my rudder. What's the proper way to "slide" around?

It's really a problem when I'm trying to land too, I'm based on a snow airfield so it's really hard to see till you're like 200 meters away and I always have trouble adjusting my flight path at that point.

Also about the ball thing, I noticed sometimes when it looks and feels like I'm flying straight (even with my hands off the controls), the ball is totally off center, far left or far right, and if I adjust rudder to fix this, then of course the plane goes off to the right or left and starts losing altitude. Any ideas what's going on here?

thanks

(registered at that flight school btw, still waiting for confirmation email, thanks for heads up)

Oh and last thing, what are the "rules" for bailing out? One mission I lost my elevator controls and so got some altitude and bailed out probably 100 meters from my base, and was able to "apply" and go to the next mission, but a couple missions later I had to bail out again but this time it wouldn't let me continue. This happened twice and both times I was well behind the Russian border and probably 300-400 meters from the base...

It's mostly about being a hamfisted noob, lol, no offense meant cause we all were at one point. You may think you're making small smooth corrections but you're not, that takes time and practice and until then you'll bounce around like a stubborn mule when you try to fly straight. As for the plane tilting left or right when you use the rudder to center the ball, well that just happens. Think about it, you get rudder control by moving the vertical stabilizer out into the wind at an angle. On the one hand that pushes your tail left or right and gives you yaw control, on the other hand since the rudder is on the top of your airplane instead of dead center that deflected air is going to want to tip your plane over one way or the other. Now if your plane has aileron trim then use it to level out again, if it doesn't have that trim then you're going to have to move the joystick to compensate, we call this "flying an airplane", lol, and it's how it was done in the good old days before computer controlled fly-by-wire systems did all the flying and the pilots flipped switches and watched TV screens, lol.

na85
01-01-2010, 01:26 PM
"Sliding" is really only useful when you're coming in to land and you're too high and/or too fast to make the runway.

In that case, you could attempt a skid/slip/slide/whatever you want to call it and do the following:

Push the rudder all the way to one side, and then use the ailerons to keep the wings level.

What this does is introduce a lot of extra drag, causing a dramatic speed loss, often accompanied by a loss of altitude as well.

Ba5tard5word
01-01-2010, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
Thanks for all the great tips guys... started to get a bit more comfortable in my LA-5 and got a few FW-190 kills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

A few more questions though...

About the "slip" thing I'm really struggling with this. I watch the AI fighters when they come in at someone's 6 and they just "slide" smoothly right behind them and open up. For me it's more a case of constantly weaving off too far to the right or left. I'm guessing this has something to do with how I'm using my rudder. What's the proper way to "slide" around?

It might be that you're just not used to how to control the planes yet, and need to get practice.

Or it might be that you could change your joystick's sensitivity settings. This program, Il2 JoyControl, is a pretty good way to do it easily.

http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=1021 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021)

When I first used my Logitech flight stick, the twist rudder was way too powerful and I was whipping left and right whenever I used it, so I reduced the sensitivity and it works better. But I'd like more control so I've finally ordered some rudder pedals and a pricier flight stick. Or maybe someone with your stick can give you some recommendations of joystick sensitivity numbers to use...you said you have a Thrustmaster HOTAS stick.

As for the slip ball I've never bothered to keep an eye on it, I've just kind of gotten a natural feel for how to control my plane and when to use rudder or not to keep my aim steady or when landing. It might help to know how to do it but I've never really had a problem.



It's really a problem when I'm trying to land too, I'm based on a snow airfield so it's really hard to see till you're like 200 meters away and I always have trouble adjusting my flight path at that point.

Landings are probably the most difficult thing to learn how to do when you first start flying a flight sim. Eventually with practice you'll master it and be able to land any plane with ease.


Oh and last thing, what are the "rules" for bailing out? One mission I lost my elevator controls and so got some altitude and bailed out probably 100 meters from my base, and was able to "apply" and go to the next mission, but a couple missions later I had to bail out again but this time it wouldn't let me continue. This happened twice and both times I was well behind the Russian border and probably 300-400 meters from the base...

I'm not really sure but in general you have to be on your side of the border to bail out and be able to hit "apply" to move on to the next mission in the campaign. I think with one of the more recent patches the game will count you as not being captured when you bail out on the other side if you are within a certain range of the border, but I'm not sure what the range of that border allowance is.

Noxx0s
01-01-2010, 07:14 PM
game will count you as not being captured when you bail out on the other side if you are within a certain range of the border, but I'm not sure what the range of that border allowance is.
That's what weird though I was well within the friendly border (at least 500 meters)

Could it have something to do with the IL-2's I was supposed to protect all going down? (impossible to stop TBH, it's like 14 FW-190s vs. 6 LA-5s and 4 IL-2s)

I thought IL-2 used a campaign structure where it's basically "what happens happens" and you can keep playing as long as you survive?

na85
01-01-2010, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:

I thought IL-2 used a campaign structure where it's basically "what happens happens" and you can keep playing as long as you survive?

Depends on the campaign, I think.

M_Gunz
01-01-2010, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Now if your plane has aileron trim then use it to level out again, if it doesn't have that trim then you're going to have to move the joystick to compensate, we call this "flying an airplane", lol, and it's how it was done in the good old days before computer controlled fly-by-wire systems did all the flying and the pilots flipped switches and watched TV screens, lol.

The thing about using aileron is that it makes one wing have a higher AOA than the other over the sections that have
aileron. Most of the time this is not a problem but when you are close to critical AOA it becomes one. When one wing
stalls before the other the result is a spin. This can happen at well over 1G stall in any turn and at high altitude
where your IAS is low it's just waiting for you to make even a hard roll to bite, especially in a high-torque situation.

Using rudder to pick a wing up is simply putting the slip-roll coupling to work for you. You rudder away from the wing
going down and that speeds that wing up as the nose turns while at the same time slowing the up-going wing down just a
bit, just enough to get you back level. See how slow you can fly and what it takes to do it. I can get a P-40 or 109
down to about 140kph by speedbar (so really more since I have to cross 150kph now and again) and it's very tricky to
hold it there for long (minutes, LOL!). P-40B at about 34% power (32-33% on a good day, 35-36% on a not so good day)
and I can hold level while any more and I climb (well at 100% but not best by any means) but so far I can't go any
slower even at full power. I don't claim to be the best either, I know WW's that I am sure can hold it level with less
power but IMHO the plane is the limit on how slow and I would sure like to know what that is just to have a goal to
reach for myself.

IcyScythe, the best advice I can give you is to practice flying and work on your maneuvers outside of combat. Either
quick mission as the only plane or set up a full mission as the only to give you takeoff practice as well. Then go
to gunnery practice against unarmed drones ONLY to get both your aim and the timing of how long your shots take to
cross the distance to your target and fix the picture in your mind. The timing is as short as musical notes but it
is critical, in deflection it is at least as important as aim and deflection will get your shots past most armor
and structural parts (including the tailwheel and frame) that do soak hits regularly in IL2.
You going through Joint-Ops though is probably the best thing you can do as a self-proclaimed newbie.

AndyJWest
01-01-2010, 08:47 PM
I think I've finally reached the stage where I don't actually think about what I'm doing with the rudder at all, most of the time, I roll with ailerons to pick a direction to turn, and use elevator to pull me round, the rudder is just there to keep me aligned with wherever I'm going, or something - I don't really know, except when I'm doing it wrong. If I'm close to stalling, at any speed, the rudder becomes more important, but it is almost automatic. It took a long time to get like this, and I think what helped most was regularly flying 'on the edge of the envelope' - not a random cliche, but an accurate description of an aeroplane on the verge of ceasing to fly. Take advantage of the opportunity that IL-2 gives to engage in manouveres that in real life would get you killed, and you will learn more than you will by flying all the time well within aircraft limitations.

M_Gunz
01-01-2010, 08:49 PM
Oh, landing approach. Keep the prop revs HIGH even as you lower power. Stay about 30% above stall speed until
the last bit which is still over 200m out. Use the view zoom if you can't find the landing strip and use the
concrete runways in practice if you can't find the grass strips. At least use the zoom to find and line up on
the things, I will do a curving approach just to keep them in sight. Hehehe, just wait till to start Carrier
landings, LOL!

If you keep above power-off (engine idle, not dead) stall then the landing mantra I know used IRL is this:

Use the stick to control your speed and the throttle to control your descent.

If you get too slow while doing that though you can wind up in trouble where only increasing power or losing
alt will get you out.

Full prop rpms as you come in means if you do have to go around then you won't have to wait for the engine to
reach full revs. This is a real thing, not a sim exploit. It will also help you control your speed very well.
Most props have automatic blade pitch control (some you can turn that off, TB-3 has fixed-pitch prop) and will
run fine (less bite into the air) just to keep the desired revs up even to having the prop drive the motor;
that will slow you down if you go faster than you have the engine power to maintain. As you lose height you
gain energy so yeah it's not just possible but easy to do. With 100% rpm there is one power to stay level, more
and you tend to climb and less to descend at the same speed. Nose up or down to control the speed and you're
pretty much good for as long as you have fuel and stay above stall.

Open the radiators full for some extra drag, down the flaps (I only go down to takeoff because I tend to bounce
landings on full flaps.. I come in a bit too fast is why.) and gear, if I have to crab/sideslip to slow down it
is better to go around but since it doesn't cost me anything I -usually- try anyway just to practice for the times
I've been pursued back to base and it -sometimes- actually works but never clean, never 'greased'.

Work on flying straight and clean first for speed. Then work on flying dirty for combat as when they see your
wings tilt the usually aim to the side a bit which you won't move into because your rudder is opposite and
keeps you from turning, crab/sideslip has wings banked one way and rudder the other -- a SMALL amount will only
slow you a little. While flying clean is certainly faster it also makes your path predictable. The crabbing is
for when someone is on your tail or might be, NEVER fly straight and level for long in combat even if you don't
think someone is back there and you will tend to fly longer. The majority of pilots killed in the war never
knew there were attacked until the last seconds.

Noxx0s
01-02-2010, 02:59 AM
runways in practice if you can't find the grass strips. At least use the zoom to find and line up on
the things, I will do a curving approach just to keep them in sight. Hehehe, just wait till to start Carrier
landings, LOL!
Thanks for the tips, yeah I just managed to land 3 concrete landings in a row! They were pretty shaky, but I made it, and without annihilating the engine.

After that I decided to try some of this "Bnz" FW-190 stuff I'd been hearing about. Set up a QB giving myself a 1000 meter height advantage against 4 average skill B-17s... managed to nail 2 and damage 1 before I lost ailerons and had to bail out. (on the third try that is, first 2 I kept losing sight of em and took forever to catch up)

Gotta say, it took me like 3 hours, but once I started to get the handle of the whole climb, roll, dive, climb thing (not to mention keeping track of where the bombers were when they went outside the limit of my cockpit)...it was a total blast.

Should I be worrying about rudder controls when performing dives and rolls like this (on bomber formations) or is it more strictly just using the stick?

I'm talking about this kind of maneuvering:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0w12iMk1sM

(notice at 1:30 he pulls up, rolls and then somehow "slides" over to the other side to attack again... what's he doing there with the rudders and stick?)

Gotta say though, I loved how easy it was to control the FW at super high speeds (700-800 kph even) compared to the LA-5 I was flying earlier.

M_Gunz
01-02-2010, 04:12 AM
Hey if an aileron is gone you can use the rudder to roll the plane. Try it out before you bail some time!

Set yourself up to make the kind of track recordings used in multiplayer, the ntrk files that you trigger on and
off while inside the mission as opposed to the trk type where after the mission you can choose to save a track.
The latter kind do not store position info and may vary quite a bit from the actual mission though they don't always.

You can review the track(s) later using pause, fast and slow motion and even change your POV. These are entirely
helpful since you can check instruments (that dang ball again!) and gunsight picture just as you fire. Pause it
>right< then and change POV over to the target and slew the view so you see the target and your plane beginning to
fire. Cut the speed down to 1/4 and watch where your tracers go. Even better, if you change the line that says
ARCADE=0 in your config.ini file to ARCADE=1 then you will see arrows sprout wherever you hit the target. They will
stay there for a while. The arrows ONLY show the direction of the hit. Just because they go clear through the target
does not mean your shots did. Usually they don't. If you see a hit arrow with a bunch of smaller arrows coming out
from it, those are the shrapnel bits and you know that was an HE shell. Yeah, it is cool!

Hell yeah you need to get to where using the rudder is second nature! A spin happens when you stall one wing before
the other and in uncoordinated flight (that's when your plane is not pointing where it's going) one wing will stall
before the other, the fuselage blocks air flow over some of the 'trailing' wing. You can be going twice level stall
speed and be at stall in a 4 G turn, for example (pulling G's takes more lift, you stall at higher speed), so keeping
speed above level stall won't save you. Besides, you won't shoot straight in uncoordinated flight and while close in
it won't matter so much it sure will at 200+ meters (0.2 icon range which is km). In BnZ I make my ranging burst at
about 400m then correct if needed and fire for effect. I may also cross that 400m in under 3 seconds, have to veer
off to avoid collision starting about 200m so from first burst to fire takes 2 seconds or less. I NEED to fire true
to get the shot right. If the target is in my sights and I am in slip then the shot is a bit trickier and I will
likely have to correct aim a bit more after the ranging burst. It's all very quick to give the target little time to
get out of the way though he may start. That's what automatic weapons and tracers are for anyway.

The Ball. Whichever side it is off center (a ball width don't matter much unless you're shooting long range) that
is the side you rudder towards. The RL pilot term is "step on the ball". You will fly a bit faster coordinated and
you will accelerate faster coordinated which IMO is worth more. The faster you go, the higher you can zoom which
is life and death in an energy match.
Add in trim plus engine and prop management and you have more workload than driving back road rally racing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Same as driving stick, it all becomes pretty much automatic with practice. Bud Anderson (Chuck Yeager's wingman)
wrote about that in his biography btw. He likened using trim to tuning a car radio while driving down the road, you
just do it without thought even during combat -- every change in speed or thrust changes the trim of your plane.

Every change also changes your propwash over the wings and tail. Consider how much and how fast your speed changes
during BnZ! I don't even bother with rudder trim unless I'm on a steady course, it's easier just to steer the plane.

M_Gunz
01-02-2010, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
I'm talking about this kind of maneuvering:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0w12iMk1sM

(notice at 1:30 he pulls up, rolls and then somehow "slides" over to the other side to attack again... what's he doing there with the rudders and stick?)

That is a sideslip. Little bit of bank in the direction you want to go (your lift pulls you) with a little bit of
rudder the opposite way to keep your nose from turning. Don't do it when you're barely flying unless you want to spin.

It's a good video though one thing, he makes a flat 180 after passing the bombers the first time. It's an energy
wasting more especially in a plane like the 190. Better choice would be to Immelmann, a half loop up and roll back
over at the top then shallow dive to regain your speed. If you don't have the speed to do that then zoom climb and
turn 180 across the top while you have good speed, at least 280kph, and then dive back out to the target. Either one
saves energy over a flat turn, the second maneuver is called a wing-over. The first real Immelmann was probably a
wing-over or something like it anyway, invented back in 1916 IIRC by Max Immelmann to turn his Fokker monoplane
quickly.

The best way to turn a 190 is to get it going up or down which "unloads the wings" and then roll so your lift is
pointing where you want to go then gently elevator the nose to go that way. Flat turns put a high load on the wings
and that increases your drag highly, the FW's roll so well it's almost criminal not to change direction through
roll in one. The same also applies to many other planes like P-47, P-51, P-40, Tempest, any with good roll.

Noxx0s
01-02-2010, 06:45 PM
I was doing some roll dives on a pack of Il-2s and briefly turned my engine to max when going into the dive (I was a little far back so the energy alone wouldn't have gotten me going fast enough), but my engine almost instantly overheated, even though I'd had it at max for long periods (3-4 minutes) when climbing to altitude... It wouldn't go to "normal" even at 20-30 percent and the sound was real bad like I blew it or something.

What'd I do? Is this a situation where you want to reduce prop %? (course the FW is auto prop right?)

Also, I read that thing on the radiator in the CEM article, but I still don't understand the advantages/disadvantages of say running 110% with radiator full open vs. running at 50-70% with it closed... What's faster? What's more maneuverable? etc.

I got an email from the joint ops people, what is it like exactly? A bunch of people get on ventrilo and the "teachers" take em through the hoops or what? Regardless, sounds great.

AndyJWest
01-02-2010, 07:12 PM
Yes, the radiator controls are hard to find, for some obscure reason (probably a bad translation from Russian), they are labeled 'Cowl or Armour Flaps'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Not vey helpful.

Some engines can react badly to full-throttle dives - it over-revs them and can cause damage quite quickly. The best advice is probably to reduce prop pitch as you dive, but that then gives you one more thing to think about as you pull out of the dive - it is simpler to just throttle back. In any case, not all aircraft have controllable pitch props. There are one or two features of some engines that can cause other problems too: engaging the emergency boost on some late-war Luftwaffe aircraft while at full revs can wreck the engine.

Avoiding engine damage is one of the things you have to get used to, and sometimes you have to ignore the warnings about overheating, and even the rough noises - it's better to come out of a dogfight with a cooked engine than a belly full of holes. When things aren't desperate, you should take care of the engine, though. If you are going to climb at full power, going a little faster than best-climb speed will increase the cooling, and when at cruising height, throttling back to say 80% will not have that much effect on speed, but will help considerably with engine temperatures.

Noxx0s
01-02-2010, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
I'm talking about this kind of maneuvering:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0w12iMk1sM

(notice at 1:30 he pulls up, rolls and then somehow "slides" over to the other side to attack again... what's he doing there with the rudders and stick?)

That is a sideslip. Little bit of bank in the direction you want to go (your lift pulls you) with a little bit of
rudder the opposite way to keep your nose from turning. Don't do it when you're barely flying unless you want to spin.

It's a good video though one thing, he makes a flat 180 after passing the bombers the first time. It's an energy
wasting more especially in a plane like the 190. Better choice would be to Immelmann, a half loop up and roll back
over at the top then shallow dive to regain your speed. If you don't have the speed to do that then zoom climb and
turn 180 across the top while you have good speed, at least 280kph, and then dive back out to the target. Either one
saves energy over a flat turn, the second maneuver is called a wing-over. The first real Immelmann was probably a
wing-over or something like it anyway, invented back in 1916 IIRC by Max Immelmann to turn his Fokker monoplane
quickly.

The best way to turn a 190 is to get it going up or down which "unloads the wings" and then roll so your lift is
pointing where you want to go then gently elevator the nose to go that way. Flat turns put a high load on the wings
and that increases your drag highly, the FW's roll so well it's almost criminal not to change direction through
roll in one. The same also applies to many other planes like P-47, P-51, P-40, Tempest, any with good roll. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure I understand how to do this roll turn.

Normal "flat turn" you just bank left/right and adjust rudder to keep ball in center and pull back slightly on the stick right?

So what would roll turn look like (in terms of what exactly do I do with controls)?

M_Gunz
01-03-2010, 12:02 AM
Picture yourself heading straight up then rolling so your cockpit points 90 degrees to one side before you
pull back and come out of the zoom. You will have changed direction 90 degrees in very few seconds.

You don't have to be going straight up for it to work. Only enough so your wings are not most of what's holding
you up which is your inertia and ballistic (thrown) motion. As long as you don't pull hard you won't burn more
speed to drag than your engine and prop supply. You can change direction by roll in a dive rather than a zoom
climb. You can also do this when coasting relatively level over the top of a loop, again on a ballistic path
just as the plane in that youtube you linked to was doing again and again, roll till "up" is where you want to
go and then pull in that direction although he was making hard pulls again and again (I say the greyout hatching
although the conversion to youtube video fuzzed it up) perhaps because he ran with too much power, 70% is enough
(and then some) to run attacks on unescorted bombers.

Learn your Basic Combat Maneuvers and then your Advanced Combat Maneuvers. Learn how each is affected by speed.
But learn how to fly clean and fast first. It's not something you'll be picking up overnight or even in months
if you throw in a load of distractions to that learning.