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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:06 PM
to be honest..

i never understood why all the mustangs were so polished and full of chrome etc...
this was in fact a huge disadvantage when it came to surprising moments in good weather situations..

Hartmann for example explained one time in one of the books about him ("Holt Hartmann vom Himmel") the polished mustangs were great sunray-reflectors and therefore very easily seen far away..
So they could never surprise him in his few "meetings" with them in the last weeks of war.. the same went for other luftwaffe pilots.. flying close above the ground was also out of question for the mustangs if they didn`t want to be noticed by enemies..

i mean when you compare the mustangs to other planes like bf109, fw190, la7 (and so on..) these at least had some camounflage markings or at least no polished/chrome/etc.. places or instead got sunray-absorbing layers on these reflecting parts..


so.. my question would be.. why did the americans let their mustangs be that easily noticable for enemies??

anyone knows the answer? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:06 PM
to be honest..

i never understood why all the mustangs were so polished and full of chrome etc...
this was in fact a huge disadvantage when it came to surprising moments in good weather situations..

Hartmann for example explained one time in one of the books about him ("Holt Hartmann vom Himmel") the polished mustangs were great sunray-reflectors and therefore very easily seen far away..
So they could never surprise him in his few "meetings" with them in the last weeks of war.. the same went for other luftwaffe pilots.. flying close above the ground was also out of question for the mustangs if they didn`t want to be noticed by enemies..

i mean when you compare the mustangs to other planes like bf109, fw190, la7 (and so on..) these at least had some camounflage markings or at least no polished/chrome/etc.. places or instead got sunray-absorbing layers on these reflecting parts..


so.. my question would be.. why did the americans let their mustangs be that easily noticable for enemies??

anyone knows the answer? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:11 PM
They were faster without the weight/drag of the paint.
I am sure there are other reasons, but I can't think of any at the moment.

fluke39
11-06-2003, 04:12 PM
not totally sure - i do know there was a large weight saving on not painting the planes which added a small (but more than you may think) amount to the planes performance.
other than that i can only think that the allies had so much air superiority they didn't think they needed camo that much.(perhaps)

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:14 PM
The Paint man the Paint

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:14 PM
perhaps it was to show that they where there...

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:16 PM
ZenemyZ wrote:
-
- so.. my question would be.. why did the americans
- let their mustangs be that easily noticable for
- enemies??
-
- anyone knows the answer? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-

Lets take an example from nature.

Very aggressive predators tend to be brightly colored, or have markings that allow them to be seen easily. Why? Because they have no reason to hide... they are the hunters.

The P-51 had no reason to hide, when flown by a good pilot. It was a fantastic craft all-around and could be considered a natural predator.



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</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:20 PM
- i mean when you compare the mustangs to other planes
- like bf109, fw190, la7 (and so on..) these at least
- had some camounflage markings or at least no
- polished/chrome/etc.. places or instead got
- sunray-absorbing layers on these reflecting parts..


On the part of the Luftwaffe at least, they had to go to great lengths to hide their aircraft (when not in use) from marauding American and British fighters later in the war, so camo was essential.

The Americans with the Mustang were mainly conerned with high altitude ops, and maximum range, so leaving the paint off (apart from the bare essentials) was a boon.

Finally, in an escort role, it was a good thing that the American fighters stuck out like a sore thumb, as it would reduce the indcidence of blue on blue incidents by the defensive gunners.



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:55 PM
All the reasons mentioned above are valid, but also (and more obvious):

When you're escorting several flights of bombers (up to 100?)at high altitude, don't you think they'll spot the bombers first? When the enemy get's close enough to spot the fighters, then they probably wanted to stick out to draw the attention from the bombers. You're painting the sky with massive contrails anyway at operational altitude...

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:17 PM
All the above, and, it was cheaper and faster to produce that way. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:17 PM
Alot of mustangs werent polished aluminum but painted in a dull gray and mainly escorting bombers that show miles of contrails I dont think camo would help much up there when you know your going to get spotted and defend

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:23 PM
And by the time the "polished aluminum" look became standard, the Mustang pilot WANTED the Germans to find them. They were there for a fight.

Hey Leadspitter, how about one of your bare aluminum skins for the B-17?



YerPalAl
---------------------------------------------
Hey, this is crazy enough it just might work!

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:27 PM
a man I met who was a B 24 pilot said that the P-51 had a reputation of a killer. and when the enemy saw a formation of bombers with shiny little planes next to it they were aprehensive about attacking and tended to make mistakes.

he also said that the average german pilots age was 17 and had only 6-8 hours of in flight training.
if you were 17 and had no idea how to fly, and a man said come here climb into this plane and shoot down these mustangs.I would think twice also.

http://www.ju52-3m.ch/bilder/wittstock.jpg

ahh its a crap plane anyway!!!
http://www.seanruppert.com/josh/porcopine.jpg

Buzz_25th
11-06-2003, 05:37 PM
Cuz we like shiny stuff../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:40 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Cuz we like shiny stuff../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


I just knew someone would say that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:47 PM
Slightly OT, but I read somewhere that by not painting the B-17s nearly a ton was saved in weight.
Wonder how much a Mustang saved in weight?

-----
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:49 PM
Actually the USAAF amended it's policy in 1944 regarding cammo. It was found that with no paint on the plane the a/c could actually gain speed and fly farther due to the drag and weight savings. But the main reason for them doing this was the fact that they had by that time achieved air superiority in the ETO, therefore there was no reason to cammo a plane that had very little chance of being attacked on the ground. You will see some of the FG's that moved to Belgium and such after D-Day adopted a partial cammo with bare aluminum finish as there was the chance maruading German aircraft could attack them on the ground. However by late 1944 as the Germans were pushed back into Germany these schemes fell away and the bare finish returned just in time for the Ardennes offensive.
~S!
Eagle
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:58 PM
By the time of big week the whole goal of the USAAC was to challenge and defeat the LW. They wanted to be seen. Plus camo is most useful on the ground, where, by 1943 the Mustangs had no fear of being destroyed.

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:12 PM
yeah what all those guys said


reduced weight, you would be suprised how much it added

hence speed increase and range increase

reduced cost

later in the war hiding was not and issue for USAAF

less time for final plane from production to pilot


In Korea many Japanese men were payed to polish the F-51 to a super shiny, drag free finish.

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:28 PM
Less weight and less production time.

"They Gave All Their Tommorrows So That We Can Have Our Todays"

"Whirlwind Whiner"
First Of The Few

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:33 PM
In December of 1943, the first Merlin powered P-51's entered the fray in the skies over Europe. Luftwaffe pilots, accustomed to attacking unescorted bombers, suddenly found themselves in the fight of their lives with a new American fighter that was every bit their equal . . . and then some. Mustang's scored heavily over German interceptors, claiming 4,950 aerial kills by war's end-more than any other fighter in the European theatre.

The Mustang's devastating effects on the Reich were double edged. Not only did P-51 pilots decimate the ranks of experienced Luftwaffe pilots, but many more Allied bombers reached their targets, crippling the Nazi war machine. No other fighter in the European theatre had such a profound effect on the balance of power than the Mustang

Quite frankly the Allies knew this plane was top notch, and by making it seen it detered the Luftwaffe.


<table style="filter:glow[color=0033FF, strength=4"><tr><td> <font color="FFFF00">31stFG Eagle
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 07:29 PM
The Mustang wanted to be seen , that was the fear factor involved. Add a few shiny Jugs with Bombers on its journey made a statement.
We wanted to show that we had "legs" with an actual fighter-escort.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 07:44 PM
I tend to agree with the "peacock" strategy as the explanation. If your primary mission is to draw fighter opposition away from bombers, why would you want to be inconspicuous? Vibrant red, blues, yellows, and even some orange dominated nose/tail paint jobs combined with polished aluminum fuselages and wings would tend to not only draw the eyes of the enemy, as intended, it would also easily differentiate the allied and axis planes as they flew into the range of nervous bomber gunners. The bright skins and paint also make it easier for fighter jocks to identify friends when there are no icons or padlocks IRL.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 07:52 PM
Well in fact, the mustang was such an inferior plane that they had to strip them of all extra weight for them to remain competitive. This included paint.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:41 PM
Well, wanting to be seen could be a mixed blessing!!! If I were a P-51 pilot, the last guy I would want to attract is Erich Hartmann or Guther Rall! The pilot who sees the other first has won half the battle-- Eric Hartmann

I believe (could be wrong) Hub Zemke's P-47's were nice and shiny when he got pounced by Gunther Rall's flight of 109's. Rall took his wingman out and nearly got Zemke too! Even though Rall found himself on the disadvantage a few minutes later!

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:42 PM
I mean, if you painted them camo, such as the ground, it would be a little visible too. A big brown and green dot coming towards you.

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:48 PM
They had no taste nor style.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:51 PM
No reason to hide when you own the place- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:52 PM
Yall like my tripple sig up there, dont you?

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:55 PM
I also read somewhere that it was just the cheap and quick way of putting on their winter camo (reflections not withstanding).

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:09 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- Well in fact, the mustang was such an inferior plane
- that they had to strip them of all extra weight for
- them to remain competitive. This included paint.
-
- Nic
-

This post is a winner. I'm printing and framing this whole thread. Thanks!

<font face="Courier New">

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‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ./ \.

</font>

ZG77_Nagual
11-06-2003, 10:13 PM
The thing about predators is crap - just so you know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and DO tend to be very well camoflaged.

I heard that late in the war the mustangs wanted to be seen - to pull the fighters off the bombers.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:21 PM
"Very aggressive predators tend to be brightly colored, or have markings that allow them to be seen easily. Why? Because they have no reason to hide... they are the hunters"

If David Attenborough were dead he'd be turning in his grave.



Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:23 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
-
- I heard that late in the war the mustangs wanted to
- be seen - to pull the fighters off the bombers.
-

I agree with that, nature`s most succesful/dangerous predators are camoflaged, like the big cats.

It is in fact some of the prey that sport bright shinning colors, as a statement to the predators that they are well defended (like with poison and stuff)





"Friends don't let friends buy Nvidia FX cards" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:29 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
-

Go tell it to this guy
http://www.nwf.org/keepthewildalive/images/photos/tiger.jpg


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‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:32 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- Well in fact, the mustang was such an inferior plane
- that they had to strip them of all extra weight for
- them to remain competitive. This included paint.
-
- Nic
-
And there goes yet another perfectly good thread thanks to the Troll's. Please watch your step he seems to have left quite a mess behind, there is no pooper scooper big enough for this one.
~S!
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:36 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
-
- I heard that late in the war the mustangs wanted to
- be seen - to pull the fighters off the bombers.
-


When I was a kid, my dad bought me a bantie rooster because i thought he was the coolest bird i ever seen.

That simbutch grew up to be the MEANEST animal I ever knew. If you've ever been around a game-****, you'll notice two things:

They are brightly colored.
They are more aggressive than a pit-bull with rhoid rage, on pcp.

Dont forget these evil things:
http://www.exn.ca/news/images/2000/06/29/20000629-bee2.jpg




<font face="Courier New">

‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ _____ | _____
‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ _\__(o)__/_
‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ./ \.

</font>

<font face="Courier New">

‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ _____ | _____
‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ _\__(o)__/_
‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:39 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- ZG77_Nagual wrote:
-- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
-- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
-- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
--
-- I heard that late in the war the mustangs wanted to
-- be seen - to pull the fighters off the bombers.
--
-
-
- When I was a kid, my dad bought me a bantie rooster
- because i thought he was the coolest bird i ever
- seen.
-
- That simbutch grew up to be the MEANEST animal I
- ever knew. If you've ever been around a game-****,
- you'll notice two things:
-
- They are brightly colored.
- They are more aggressive than a pit-bull with rhoid
- rage, on pcp.
-
- Dont forget these evil things:
http://www.exn.ca/news/images/2000/06/29/20000629-bee2.jpg


Now there`s a new one, the "Mighty Predator Bee" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





"Friends don't let friends buy Nvidia FX cards" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:40 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- Well in fact, the mustang was such an inferior plane
- that they had to strip them of all extra weight for
- them to remain competitive. This included paint.
-
- Nic
-
-

No fool flys a bare surface metal aircraft, either oversprayed with aluminum colored paint or a clear laquer coating. Corrosive effects and static control need to be checked. So much for the weight savings fairy tale.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:47 PM
thx for all your thoughts about this topic..

some were very reasonable and self explaining but some others.. well.. i wouldn`t be too sure about this predator and wanting to be seen stuff.. but the productional advantages (especially when produced in large numbers) surely could have been of some weight for this "tactic" if we could call that so..

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:51 PM
Camouflage is useless when you are tailing a five hundred foot contrail behind you.

Try a flight in FB at 7500m, where the Mustangs normally fought. You will see huge streaming contrails from evry aircraft in the battle. They can be seen for miles. Paint doesn't do a thing about those.

So, as they were already sticking out like a sore thumb, air command opted to just strip the camo paint, and get any weight savings they could from it.

The Germans, on the other hand, couldn't afford to do that, as they had to deploy their aircraft on the Eastern Front as well, at altitudes well below contrail height, so they had to keep the camouflage paint on theirt aircraft.

Here's a screenshot to illustrate what I'm talking about:

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TAAAAGoYucnrNMR!hqs8nkFBsYY8VMyq9z40axiHdz6MgN*p* Rl!bA4!Yv*9jXoAHbrPE!S3X2G3KJQ8qFzI3ZX8JASxgBySzbk CsUyifBfmxelRRSW*pg/Contrails.jpg?dc=4675446089802727716

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:56 PM
RedManAce wrote:
-
- No fool flys a bare surface metal aircraft, either
- oversprayed with aluminum colored paint or a clear
- laquer coating. Corrosive effects and static
- control need to be checked. So much for the weight
- savings fairy tale.
-

The USAAF aircraft used a thin plastic coating, if I recall correctly, to protect the metal. However, this coating still needed to be used even if they painted the aircraft, so yes they did save weight and time by leaving off the camoflauge layer.

That, and proper camoflauging paint of the time also had a rough surface, which added noticably to drag.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 10:58 PM
NetDaemon wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
--
-- ZG77_Nagual wrote:
--- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
--- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
--- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
---
--- I heard that late in the war the mustangs wanted to
--- be seen - to pull the fighters off the bombers.
---
--
--
-- When I was a kid, my dad bought me a bantie rooster
-- because i thought he was the coolest bird i ever
-- seen.
--
-- That simbutch grew up to be the MEANEST animal I
-- ever knew. If you've ever been around a game-****,
-- you'll notice two things:
--
-- They are brightly colored.
-- They are more aggressive than a pit-bull with rhoid
-- rage, on pcp.
--
-- Dont forget these evil things:
- <img
- src="http://www.exn.ca/news/images/2000/06/29/2000
- 0629-bee2.jpg">
-
-
- Now there`s a new one, the "Mighty Predator Bee"

Thats an africanized honey bee. AKA "Killer bee". Its considered to be one the the worlds most aggressive creatures.

<font face="Courier New">

‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ _____ | _____
‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ _\__(o)__/_
‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ‚ ./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 11:00 PM
I love contrails of FB. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
It's so cold at 8,000m.


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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 11:05 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- NetDaemon wrote:
-- BaldieJr wrote:
---
--- ZG77_Nagual wrote:
---- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
---- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
---- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
----
---- I heard that late in the war the mustangs wanted to
---- be seen - to pull the fighters off the bombers.
----
---
---
--- When I was a kid, my dad bought me a bantie rooster
--- because i thought he was the coolest bird i ever
--- seen.
---
--- That simbutch grew up to be the MEANEST animal I
--- ever knew. If you've ever been around a game-****,
--- you'll notice two things:
---
--- They are brightly colored.
--- They are more aggressive than a pit-bull with rhoid
--- rage, on pcp.
---
--- Dont forget these evil things:
-- <img
-- src="http://www.exn.ca/news/images/2000/06/29/2000
-- 0629-bee2.jpg"> --
--
-- Now there`s a new one, the "Mighty Predator Bee"
-
- Thats an africanized honey bee. AKA "Killer bee".
- Its considered to be one the the worlds most
- aggressive creatures.
-

Sure, but not a "predator", more like a prey with great defense.

Like I said in an earlier post, some prey deters predators by
warning them with bright colors about their defenses.

Don`t believe me? read a book about Bees, not even killer bees can be clasified as predators since they do not "hunt" nor feed on other creatures (predate).





"Friends don't let friends buy Nvidia FX cards" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 11:30 PM
It's 'the paint' that won the war. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Or lack thereof? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 11:44 PM
What's happening today? I only caught three so far.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:51 AM
nicolas10 wrote:
- What's happening today? I only caught three so far.

If I'll say something here it will explode in a 10 page thread/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:22 AM
- U wrote: Very aggressive predators tend to be brightly colored, or have markings that allow them to be seen easily. Why? Because they have no reason to hide... they are the hunters.

Ah I understand! Just like a Ladybird. (That's what Babelfish translated "Marienk√¬§fer") You know those very aggressive red beetles with black dots.

Cheers,

denbug


http://www.il2skins.com/skins/thumbs/6368.jpg

get it here: http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=6368

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:22 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- ZG77_Nagual wrote:
-- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
-- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
-- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
--
-
- Go tell it to this guy
http://www.nwf.org/keepthewildalive/images/photos/tiger.jpg


I would like to point out, that while that tiger is brightly colored, he does have a very effective camo on him:

Pattern breaker.

Say for example, that you can only see in two color tones; black and white, and toss yourself into the wilderness with a tiger right in front of you. Chances are you won't see him because he blends in due to the erratic scheme, not the colors. Just because the human eye can see the fancy colors doesn't mean the predator's prey will.


http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:22 AM
Actually,


The Mustang's fuse was bare metal, and the wings were painted in gloss alum colored paint. Gloss paint DECREASES the amount of drag over a bare metal surface because it fills in all the imperfections and gaps. And they wanted the wings to be as slippery as possible.

Don't know about these comments on clear laquer or plastic. That's a new one to me. Aluminum doesn't corrode over a period of a few years with just natural exposure. Besides, many ground crews polished their babys every chance they got.




"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:25 AM
No paint - less weight.

Polished surface - less drag.

Bright and shiny - easy to see.

As some others have stated, the 8th AF Fighter Groups went out looking to engage enemy fighters. They wanted to be seen.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sigstang.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:28 AM
Honey Bees a predators- now THAT gave me some laughs!!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I see levels of natural history knowledge dropped while I was away.




"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:46 AM
prey have bright colours, bright colours is a defence saying donmt eat me, usually things that a posioness or have a nasty little surprise, some predators have bright colours but if you look at the environment they live in you will see its the same as them, even my cat has camo u cant even see her in the garden.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:17 AM
Well they look pretty

<center>
http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/images/151sig.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat/
JOIN OUR SQUAD TODAY!
http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/images/1asig3.gif


Message Edited on 11/06/0305:19PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:17 AM
I'm not so sure a polished surface has less drag. A sanded surface breaks up the laminar flow better (in water, at least)

Also did you know those stealth bombers we have... they were going to make them grey (the best camo color) but they decided it looked more badass in black.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:30 AM
More....it was found that a shade of pink was the best camo colour for aircraft in desert conditions - you can imagine how long that suggestion lasted.

RBJ...was that little snippet about the laminar flow a surfing thing ? Does having a rougher board (as opposed to glass-like) help 'grip' the water better or something ? I ain't screwing with you, i really don't know.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:04 AM
Lixma in surfing you want as smooth a surface as possible, grip used for control comes in the profile shape which is concave to grab at the edges as well as the entire board being like the rocker on a rocking chair. This allows you to trim having as little as possible of the board in the water and as a result less drag.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:47 AM
paint weighs alot, look at modern airlines they have crome undersides and other parts to save weitght

Leutnant Schlageter

KG 54 "Totenlopf Operations Offizer

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:13 AM
From my surf forum:

This was an old Surfer Mag discussion, LONG time ago. Lots to do with cohesive tension and turbulation. A 'smooth', or otherwise highly polished, board will actually drag more than a 'rough' surface will. The smooth surface is more apt to cause drag because of cohesive tension. A 'rough' surface is actually more slippery because it breaks up the natural 'surface tension' of the water, and creates a turbulant layer that has less drag and the board slips on it rather than clinging to it


One design sail boat racers will sometimes sand the sheen off the gel-coat to gain a little speed (even though the rules prohibit this just for the sake of gaining speed alone. It must be done with the intent to "repair" the boat...yeah right). I did that to a Laser, and the increase in hull speed was noticeable. Also, it is well known that you never wax your hull...you just use Dupont #7 rubbing compound or something finer to get rid of the oxidation. A waxed hull is easier to keep clean, but is slower against a similar boat with an unwaxed hull.

A turbulent boundary layer delays flow separation. Flow separation causes a lot of drag.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:01 AM
I heard that by painting a Qnatas 747 in a multi-coloured aboriginal paint scheme (City of Redfern?) they effectivly had to reduce the useful load of the aircraft by several hundred kilos due to the extra weight of the paint.

I also heard once that the paint alone from a C5 Galaxy weighs about the same as a C130 Herc without its engines.

I love stats like that...




http://www.elvisspecialties.com/pubimages/SUNGLASSESGOLD-300-225.jpg



Regards,

P.E.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:11 AM
That type of stuff Ray applies more to sailing where you reach high speeds and surface tension and drag can make a considerable differnce. Most board designs today incorporate the concave hull, beveld rails, and the rocker shape to deal with any significant drag. I have seen designs with dimples like a golf ball to as you suggest break surface tension but these would only possibly see better results in the absolute best of conditions where you would have a glassy surface tons of speed and honestly its debatable if you would have an advantage. I have had enough beat up clunkers in my time with bottom naturally sanded to know that the best results come from a nice clean smooth surface with the right shape. I have a 9'6 stewart that when new was much quicker down the line than today. The rocker, concave bottom and rail design is what gives boards of today much more speed than there predecessors. Sanding the bottom of a surfboard for speed would only reduce that thin layer of glass by even more with no benefit because rarely is the whole board in the water at the same time.


Thanks to lixma for this diversion now what was it about the mustang, oh yeah no paint....as mentioned before had alot to do with wanting to be seen. A comman formation of mustangs late in the war was to have a few act as bait while more were perched above (boy intersting how alot of the worlds airforces at that time owe many tactics to the Luftwaffe).

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:27 AM
Ok, the effect RBJ is talking about is caused by travelling through a medium with a high surface tension. Air has a considerably lower surface tension than water does, so that dynamic doesn't come into play quite that way.

Side note, aluminum corrosion forms a hard, and airtight, but brittle shell over the aluminum. I.e. it is non-destructive. Iron corrosion is rather different, in that it actually induces a slight voltage across the material, causing oxidation inside the metal. Rust is actually sucking electrons out of the material and attaching them to nearby oxidising agents. Oxidation no longer occures between enighboring atoms, it occures at a distance too. Impure water acts as a wonderful conduction, and accellerates the proccess.

You can learn all sorts of fun stuff in chemistry.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:13 AM
eodtech2000 wrote:
- Well, wanting to be seen could be a mixed
- blessing!!! If I were a P-51 pilot, the last guy I
- would want to attract is Erich Hartmann or Guther
- Rall! The pilot who sees the other first has won
- half the battle-- Eric Hartmann
-
- I believe (could be wrong) Hub Zemke's P-47's were
- nice and shiny when he got pounced by Gunther Rall's
- flight of 109's. Rall took his wingman out and
- nearly got Zemke too! Even though Rall found
- himself on the disadvantage a few minutes later!
-
-

Zemke's Jugs were all camoflauged. Actually, Rall got three out of the four aircraft in Zemke's flight, as Zemke's autobiography made clear. Only the P-47's diving speed saved Zemke when he realized he was next.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:30 AM
About camo paint having higher drag-studies showed that flat (non-reflective) paints with rougher surfaces did slow a plane down out of proportion to the weight penalty. LW paints were generally a semi flat that seemed shiny up close and flat from a distance, and imposed less drag than any flat paints the British were able to formulate (and they tried). Many fighter pilots endeared themselves to their groundcrew by having them paste wax their entire plane. It actually did add a few MPH to the top speed.

However, economy and morale were the two biggest reasons for allowing the introduction of uncamo'd aircraft to the frontlines (followed closely by pilots' egos). Shiny planes were easily identified as American, hence, good for our troops' morale, and bad for theirs'.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:38 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- ZG77_Nagual wrote:
-- The thing about predators is crap - just so you
-- know. They do NOT tend to be brightly colored - and
-- DO tend to be very well camoflaged.
--
-
- Go tell it to this guy

http://www.nwf.org/keepthewildalive/images/photos/tiger.jpg



I took a trip out in the wild to tell one, but I couldn't find any tigers at all! Can you? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/30713/p/564942_150092491387798572_vl.jpg


Btw, laminar flow is definately an issue in air as well. Golf balls take advantage of it and NASA is currently researching on some pretty neat-o wings to exploit it better.



http://www.hostmysig.com/data/olaleier/believesig.jpg


Message Edited on 11/08/0303:39AM by olaleier

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:46 AM
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/imagesH/H081503d.jpg
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/H44-63507t.jpg
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/Pics/gallery/MarkKallio/14.jpg
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/Pics/gallery/BenRogers/11.jpg
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/Pics/gallery/WingsoftheNorth/1.jpg
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/Pics/gallery/PaulNann/8.jpg
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/H42-103831.jpg
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:42 AM
1 and most important they wanted to attract the luftwaffe to attack. at any altitude. so they could kill them all. 2 so everyone knew the shinies were friendlies in and among the bombers. and 3 for weight and drag savings lastly. they were the first true definition of the term "NO FEAR" .... course in airwar everyone was scaird to death but in essence they wanted those krauts to attack them. no doubt.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:49 AM
RAYBANJOCKEY...your post here "Also did you know those stealth bombers we have... they were going to make them grey (the best camo color) but they decided it looked more badass in black.
" you dont want shiny chrome surfaces on stealth planes...it stands out like a sore thumb on radar. they have absobant materials with rough surfaces and angular edges to toss off radar randomly. that black paint works wonders to help stealthify planes. ....especially at night heh.


www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:43 PM
lovely pictures Bearcat.

Anyone skinned any of them?

I guess people are right about reasons for lack of paint, but polished Al looks great!

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:30 PM
olaleier wrote:

I took a trip out in the wild to tell one, but I
- couldn't find any tigers at all! Can you?



LOOK OUT!!!! I think I see him at the base of the tree.

http://faussyorktown.homestead.com/files/grab0006.jpg


Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win.
Motto, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School
(TOPGUN)



Message Edited on 11/08/0309:32AM by FA_Maddog

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:02 PM
I read trough the whole thread, just too see if anyone had half a brain to remember what a bright reflection does to your eyes.


May i be so bold, as to remind you that a reflective surface will partialy blind a possible pursuer!!!???

The fights occured mainly above the clouds, and since there was no obstruction, the sun would reflect in the shiny surface of the aircrafts at all times, and in all directions.

A pursuer, following a shiny chromed aircraft, will have a very hard time to focus his aim, with the sun light reflecting on the shiny target and blinding him.

This ins't rocket science, use yur heads, the aircraft pannels are not chromed by nature.



Stainless steel is shiny, yes? Sure, but then put it next to a chromed surface, and tell me in wich one you can actualy see a reflection, not a bright hue.

Not enough?

Fine, get yourselfs a pocket mirror, go outside, and tilt it until you can see the sun trough it, and then tell me you can stare at the reflection for long.


Everything else said in this thread is correct, you only missed the obvious.



Cheers.

<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/1-picture1.gif?0.8490278826190298 (http://oksquad.free.fr)</center><font color="#59626B">

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:12 PM
Same question people asked American Airlines why they have jetliner in polished aluminum skin.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:35 PM
Well, technically, any metalic surface reflects radar waves. The trick with Stealth technology is to reflect it off at angles other than the ones it came in at. Most of our "stealth" aircraft are only stealthy from certain views. You paint them from the right direction, and they show up like a sore thumb on radar.

Also, the black paint we are using on the F-117's is not just a paint. Apparently it is a rather complex, multi-layered material designed to absorb radar waves, and has to be applied very, very carefully inorder for it to work correctly.

As for the colour, I forget who it was who said it in this thread, but the colour found to be most difficult to see was a greyish pastel pink. The airforce brass vetoed it because "Real men don't fight is pink airplanes." (It was a pretty ghastly colour too.)

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:39 PM
resev wrote:
- I read trough the whole thread, just too see if
- anyone had half a brain to remember what a bright
- reflection does to your eyes.
-
-
- May i be so bold, as to remind you that a reflective
- surface will partialy blind a possible pursuer!!!???
-
- The fights occured mainly above the clouds, and
- since there was no obstruction, the sun would
- reflect in the shiny surface of the aircrafts at all
- times, and in all directions.
-
- A pursuer, following a shiny chromed aircraft, will
- have a very hard time to focus his aim, with the sun
- light reflecting on the shiny target and blinding
- him.
-
- This ins't rocket science, use yur heads, the
- aircraft pannels are not chromed by nature.
-
-
-
-
- Stainless steel is shiny, yes? Sure, but then put it
- next to a chromed surface, and tell me in wich one
- you can actualy see a reflection, not a bright hue.
-
- Not enough?
-
- Fine, get yourselfs a pocket mirror, go outside, and
- tilt it until you can see the sun trough it, and
- then tell me you can stare at the reflection for
- long.
-
-
- Everything else said in this thread is correct, you
- only missed the obvious.
-
-
-
- Cheers.
-
-

I'm sure that the Axis pilots were smart enough to wear some sort of darkened glass over their eyes like in the form of SUNGLASSES?.



http://faussyorktown.homestead.com/files/grab0006.jpg


Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win.
Motto, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School
(TOPGUN)

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:58 PM
Im afraid you are all wrong, it was so the pretty boy yanks could check out theie hairstyles before TO. Ha ha.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 11:00 PM
OK let's be serious for a second:

It's just that merrickans are like Ewoks. They like everything shiny.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 11:41 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- OK let's be serious for a second:
-
- It's just that merrickans are like Ewoks. They like
- everything shiny.
-
- Nic

Yep, they like the phrase of "bringing everyone back", and a downed shiny aircraft IS easier to see/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rgds

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:09 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- Yep, they like the phrase of "bringing everyone
- back", and a downed shiny aircraft IS easier to
- see

Then I guess the mechanics painted in green the planes of the guys they didn't like.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:13 AM
Just a side note: NASA stopped painting the large rocket booster fuel tank white. Now it's an unpainted orange to save weight.

-The Chad

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:16 AM
And cost. Paint's expensive when you have to use several hundred gallons of it.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:38 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- And cost. Paint's expensive when you have to use
- several hundred gallons of it.
-
- Harry Voyager

Even NASA tries to save where it's possible? It seems like the global economy is really going down the ranges these days?

Guess some hefty import-taxes could solve the problem of work being moved from "higher-income"-countries, and give national economies a boost....

By the way, didn't they paint the booster white to avoid it getting heated by the sun in Florida?

rgds

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:53 AM
Polished metal has it's own camoflage effect, The sky radiates light, planes reflect it and will always be darker when observed from below. The more a plane reflects, the less visible it will be from below.

Lights were mounted on ASW planes in ww2 to use as daytime camoflage. Instaed of making the plane stand out, they was closer in brightness to the sky behind them.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:19 AM
At the time the USAAF stopped using camoflage on many of its aircraft, the Luftwaffe and Japanese airforce were just about finished. By that time, most of the aircraft flying over Germany were allies. The increased performance from the smoother finish and reduced weight was more of an advantage than increased difficulty in spotting and identifying the side of an aircraft.

Besides, by that time, if a Luftwaffe pilot spotted another aircraft that wasn't in his own rotte or schwarm, it probably was an enemy. Quick identification also was an advantage for the allies. If an allied pilot spotted an unknown aircraft, the earlier the boggie was identified as a friendly, the sooner they could turn more of their attention to looking for other aircraft.

Adler52

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:16 AM
-
- By the way, didn't they paint the booster white to
- avoid it getting heated by the sun in Florida?
-
- rgds
-
-



No, The compressed liquid hydrogen and oxygen tank is insulated and kept at -220 degrees. The sun would never have the slightest effect.

-The Chad

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:23 AM
Well I don‚¬īt know but for some reason american planes are always the most esthetic ones. Just look at the P 40. Awful planes but really beatiful. Even modern jet fighters american fighters looks the best while not always performing the best.

The P 47 is the exception that confirms the rule though... :d

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:25 AM
ChicagoChad wrote:
-
- No, The compressed liquid hydrogen and oxygen tank
- is insulated and kept at -220 degrees. The sun would
- never have the slightest effect.
-
--The Chad

Auch.... Now I'm feeling stupid....

rgds