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rpkiller
04-03-2006, 02:15 PM
Dear all

Apologies for the off-topic. I am planning to construct an accurate scale R/C electric bf109, preferably the E or F model, and am looking for suitably detailed plans including fuselage and wing sections. I have tried the www.airwar.ru (http://www.airwar.ru) website, but this unfortunately does not include sufficient detail for the sections http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Can any of you aviation experts help me out a bit??? I'd be most gratefull and happy to document my progress with the project, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks in advance

rp

F19Gladiator
04-03-2006, 02:49 PM
Try here

http://prodocs.netfirms.com/

for some drawings under 109F

Collection of General Info:
Click on:"Data Collection"

rpkiller
04-03-2006, 03:03 PM
Thanks very much Gladiator http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just one thing - in order to create an accurate model I still need a little additional information, namely wing sections and tailplane sections, so accurate structural representations can be created. I am planning on creating a ribbed balsawood structure with thin balsa sheet covering, covered over with tissue paper and dope and painted and sealed. This should create a strong, light structure which closely matches the actual aircraft's profiles. The bf109 is a natural choice due to it's simplicity of section and form, performance and the lack of difficult to replicate parts such as bubble canopys, etc. I am planning on taking the electronics from a ParkZone P51, which performs well enough but I am certain I can construct a lighter, higher performane airframe and scale appearance for realistic scale aerobatics. I have an A0 plotter to aid printing, and so just need to accumulate enough sectional details, plans etc... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'd really appreciate any help/advise and drawings any of you can provide, and thanks in advance for your contributions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Thanks

rp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jatro13th
04-03-2006, 07:10 PM
I posted this a while ago, go here and there is quite a big variety of plans:

http://www.airwar.ru/other/drawe.html

rpkiller
04-04-2006, 02:55 AM
Thanks Jatro http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Unfortunately I have allready tried the airwar.ru site you mentioned and whilst an excellent and varied resource, the drawings don't contain enough of the information I need to create an accurate r/c model. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I'm sure this is a problem frequently encountered by modellers for this game as whilst there is an abundance of elevational data, actual accurate sectional and structural information is very hard to come by. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Thanks for any more information any of you may have http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

diomedes33
04-04-2006, 03:00 AM
Probably the easiest thing to do, is to find the airfoil that was used. Then use the wing
top-down view to scale each rib.

I remembered this <A HREF="http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2911037893/r/2881069893#2881069893" TARGET=_blank>
thread</A> from a while back. It had a discussion on airfoils for different WWII aircraft.

This link (http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html) in the thread has the airfoils used for the aircraft. The 109s are about in the middle of the page.

The 109E/F airfoils are listed as
NACA 2R1 14.2(root)
NACA 2R1 11(tip)

I thought the UIUC Airfoil database (http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html) would have them, but couldn't find it. After doing a quick google run it looks like a modified 4 or 5 digit NACA, but couldn't find which one. If someone knows how to decode this 2R1 xx.x airfoil feel free to chime in. I'm pretty sure that the xx.x is the %thickness of chord, but not sure about the 2R1.

You may run into a problem if you are planning to make this flyable. Even if you have a 100% scale replica of the aircraft it may not fly because of the different combination of speed and size. You may have to add more camber to the airfoil to get it airborn.

The stabilizers can be estimated similarly. They should be symetric, NACA 0012 would be a good place to start.

rpkiller
04-04-2006, 07:14 AM
Thanks Diomedes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I shall do some internet searching to try find the aerofoil references.

I'm aware of the issues between airspeed, weight, etc affecting the flight charactaristics of the model - and am assuming I may need to make modifications depending on how the wing loadings and predicted soeeds work out. However, I will still find it useful to start with accurate information so the model does not deviate too far. The ideal is to create a simple, good flying r/c aircraft which matches the flight characteristincs of the real aircraft as closely as possible.

Thanks again for the info and I'll keep looking for more info.

b.t.w. does anyone know where I can cheaply or ideally freely obtain blueprints for 109 E/F models?

Petey78
04-04-2006, 07:52 AM
Rpkiller, if you want your Bf109 to stand a chance of flying you DO NOT want it to feature scale aerofoil sections. Due to the relative difference in size between the aerofoil of a model and the aerofoil of a full sized aircraft and the exact same size of the air molecules through which each wing must pass, scale aerofoils are generally not advised, at best they are inefficient, at worst they are flat out unstable. This is particularly true of smaller electric models, incidentally, what size model were you thinking of? a good aerofoil for use with electric warbirds is the Selig S3021, slightly modified by removal of the undercamber. With a couple of degrees of washout this flat bottomed section will perform well, it will be perfectly aerobatic and a darned sight easier to build than a scale wing section! Due to the taper in the planform of the Bf109, washout is highly desirable (a slight spanwise twisting of the wing panels, normally around three degrees which puts the wingtip sections at a lower angle of attack than the roots. This is to help the wing to stall simultaneously along its span and not just at the tips where an incipient spin is likely to be provoked). Also, be aware that the Bf109 had a very small tailplane, even with the long aft fuselage it is critically small for a model aircraft. Most model designers increase the area of the tailplane to make scale warbirds a little more neutral in pitch and the Bf109 is no exception. There are plenty of good designs out there for very nice scale looking Bf109's, I have a plan for a speed 400 (or eqivilent brushless motor) Bf109e that was designed by a prolific electric model designer, Adrian Britton and published free with a model magazine (Quiet and Electric Flight International from Traplet Publications) here in the UK. They may be able to supply you with a back issue of the magazine. Alternatively, here is a goldmine of information, Bf109's are popular with modellers and you'll find plenty of projects documented at different scales in these forums: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php If you can't get hold of a back issue of the magazine that I described, Adrian Britton, the designer of the electric Bf109e frequents the above forum regularly and although I'm not sure, I think a 'short' kit of laser cut parts can be supplied for the Messerschmmitt. I definitely remember him writing that the Bf109 was his favourite design to fly. One last thing; if you're not an experienced model pilot then you'll want to get some training done on a MUCH slower and more stable aircraft than a Bf109, I have one, it's about 40" wingspan but powered by a glowplug engine and it went like stink when I flew it last, the Germans certainly knew how to camouflage their machines too, it was a bugger to keep oriented, that's why I stripped it down, to respray it in a desert scheme! I've been building and flying RC models for years but have very little experience of electric flight so I'm just about to embark on a new project, a 45" wingspan DeHavilland 103 Hornet complete with retractable undercarriage, I like a challenge! Good luck with your project!

All the best, Pete

PS: Also found this site, obviously a modeller inspired by this sim! http://www.tdmsoftware.com/tdmmodels/

Chuck_Older
04-04-2006, 08:34 AM
Good point, Pete!

rpkiller, also bear in mind that the Bf 109 underwent a rather large airframe re-design during the war, the relative merits of the earlier versus later design may lend advantages/disadvantages to the choice of which one you want to re-create

I should think a one-piece wing may be an option...landing the thing may need the structural integrity that two individial wings may just not provide, but maybe the overall reduction of (scaled) weight will make this a non-issue. real 109s could have a wing replaced while sitting on it's own landing gear!

Petey78
04-04-2006, 09:02 AM
Chuck, you're quite right, normally on small electric models the wing is built as two separate panels and then joined as a one piece assembly. The wing is normally held to the fuselage with a wooden dowel in the leading edge and small nylon bolts at the trailing edge (the idea being that these will break when you come steaming in on one wingtip!) Most small electric warbirds are bungee or hand launched and belly landed. Retracts are available comercially but they are awkward to set up and can be vulnerable, particularly when the ground from which the model is flown is not perfect. Likewise, fixed u/c has a habit of looking awful hanging out of the wing when a warbird is going quick and performing aerobatics!

Cheers, Pete

rpkiller
04-06-2006, 06:26 AM
Thanks guys for the great feedback.

Apologies for my late response - I've been away a couple of days. I am currently working some plans up in AutoCAD which I can publish here before finalizing and constructing. I am currently working to 1/10th scale with a geared 400 speed motor. The model is indeed to be hand launched without gear.

I am currently working to a E-7 model because: I have the sources avaiable for it, the squarer wingtips and shape are easier to form, and I expect a lightweight electric plane is closer to an early war bird than a late, heavily armed and high powered aircraft.

I shall bear you commetns in mind about the wing construction as these will tend to take knocks on akward landings and so will need to be very tough. I am currently researching the aerofoil sections and shall get back to you once I understand them fully.

Thanks for the comments! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rp

Jatro13th
04-06-2006, 02:08 PM
rp, good job man, I've been saying to myself for ages now to do something similar, but never had the time, nor the resources. goodnluck man and keep us updated!