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XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 11:53 AM
I just sent this email to the Beta team, but just for you to check it as well.

Dear Il2 makers:

RC02 (files released Monday 17th)

Issue: Bombers defense against an AI attack:

Description: The AI gunners almost don't fire when another AI plane is attacking it from behind (4:00-6:00 high or low)

Explanation:

I have observed that most Ai gunners almost don't fire when another AI plane is attacking it. This is specially predominant when the attacker is coming from behind. Sometimes they fore when they are far away (.8 km) but stop until the enemy AI plane is almost 100 Mts close. sometimes they don't fire a single bullet and they are just downed without even putting a fight!

I made a simple QMB game with 2 Mig3 against most bombers in FB. (I include the tracks here, but you can replicate them easy in the QMB)

Observations:

1. Most gunners don't fire a single bullet, even when the enemy Ai plane is clearly in shot range and angle. The pilot does evade, but the gunners are ineffective. They control the fire burst too much, firing almost single bullets, instead of shooting like "crazy" and in long burst, in the hope to fright the enemy Ai plane.

2. Gunners fire too little, but sometimes, too accurate. It should be the other way around: Lots of firing, but with lots of dispersion and missing.

3. An enemy Ai plane can sit on a plane's 6:00 and keep firing at it (and downing it) and the gunners don't even fire at it! In this way, it s very easy for AI planes to down dozens of bombers, unless they have cover.

4. Some maneuvers from the AI bomber expose their pilots too much, and makes it even easier for the AI accurate shooting to down the pilot. They should dive harder, and bank harder or make it more difficult for the AI planes. (look at the B-17 track...two migs down 2 B-17 in one pass so easily)

5. The AI fighter attacking planes have no fear. they don't evade even when getting hit.

6. Some gunners target planes that are not attacking them whilst ignoring the ones attacking them.

7. I would like to see heavier and more intense fire from gunners, not ultra-short bursts/single bullet snipper shots.

8. Most Ai gunners don't "track" the enemy planes. Sometimes they keep firing at the same point, when the Ai fighter is already somewhere else...they don't adjust the firing to the enemy position.

9. Many AI bombers go down too easily...a bit of fire, or some slight damage, and they quit (bail out). it seems harder to down a fighter like a mig than an Il4....

In the tracks, you can see clear examples where most bombers go down without firing a single bullet. Even B-17 are down easily with a AI mig...


Other observations from the tracks:

**The Bf110 and other Axis planes are so inaccurate that they can't even shoot down/hit a plane when they are on their 6:00 and don't even evade. they DON"T COMPENSATE FOR THE ARCH THAT THEIR BULLETS DO. Unlike VVS guns, the other guns make a prominent arch when shooting and "fall short" of their target. That, together with the slower muzzle velocity, makes the AI miss all the time if they are in a 109/110/210....Take a look at the Bf110 track I include here...He misses most bullets even when the Mig doesn't move...and he is in his 6:00!!!

**SkASS 7.9 mm machine guns from Mig/I-16 and Yak are way to "incendiary". A short burst makes most planes do down in flames too easily (specially when the Ai is firing). Their bullets are very effective at burning fuel tanks all the time. No other gun makes that. I would like that to be checked.

TRACKS: http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/bombers_defense.zip

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/falcofb.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 11:53 AM
I just sent this email to the Beta team, but just for you to check it as well.

Dear Il2 makers:

RC02 (files released Monday 17th)

Issue: Bombers defense against an AI attack:

Description: The AI gunners almost don't fire when another AI plane is attacking it from behind (4:00-6:00 high or low)

Explanation:

I have observed that most Ai gunners almost don't fire when another AI plane is attacking it. This is specially predominant when the attacker is coming from behind. Sometimes they fore when they are far away (.8 km) but stop until the enemy AI plane is almost 100 Mts close. sometimes they don't fire a single bullet and they are just downed without even putting a fight!

I made a simple QMB game with 2 Mig3 against most bombers in FB. (I include the tracks here, but you can replicate them easy in the QMB)

Observations:

1. Most gunners don't fire a single bullet, even when the enemy Ai plane is clearly in shot range and angle. The pilot does evade, but the gunners are ineffective. They control the fire burst too much, firing almost single bullets, instead of shooting like "crazy" and in long burst, in the hope to fright the enemy Ai plane.

2. Gunners fire too little, but sometimes, too accurate. It should be the other way around: Lots of firing, but with lots of dispersion and missing.

3. An enemy Ai plane can sit on a plane's 6:00 and keep firing at it (and downing it) and the gunners don't even fire at it! In this way, it s very easy for AI planes to down dozens of bombers, unless they have cover.

4. Some maneuvers from the AI bomber expose their pilots too much, and makes it even easier for the AI accurate shooting to down the pilot. They should dive harder, and bank harder or make it more difficult for the AI planes. (look at the B-17 track...two migs down 2 B-17 in one pass so easily)

5. The AI fighter attacking planes have no fear. they don't evade even when getting hit.

6. Some gunners target planes that are not attacking them whilst ignoring the ones attacking them.

7. I would like to see heavier and more intense fire from gunners, not ultra-short bursts/single bullet snipper shots.

8. Most Ai gunners don't "track" the enemy planes. Sometimes they keep firing at the same point, when the Ai fighter is already somewhere else...they don't adjust the firing to the enemy position.

9. Many AI bombers go down too easily...a bit of fire, or some slight damage, and they quit (bail out). it seems harder to down a fighter like a mig than an Il4....

In the tracks, you can see clear examples where most bombers go down without firing a single bullet. Even B-17 are down easily with a AI mig...


Other observations from the tracks:

**The Bf110 and other Axis planes are so inaccurate that they can't even shoot down/hit a plane when they are on their 6:00 and don't even evade. they DON"T COMPENSATE FOR THE ARCH THAT THEIR BULLETS DO. Unlike VVS guns, the other guns make a prominent arch when shooting and "fall short" of their target. That, together with the slower muzzle velocity, makes the AI miss all the time if they are in a 109/110/210....Take a look at the Bf110 track I include here...He misses most bullets even when the Mig doesn't move...and he is in his 6:00!!!

**SkASS 7.9 mm machine guns from Mig/I-16 and Yak are way to "incendiary". A short burst makes most planes do down in flames too easily (specially when the Ai is firing). Their bullets are very effective at burning fuel tanks all the time. No other gun makes that. I would like that to be checked.

TRACKS: http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/bombers_defense.zip

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/falcofb.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 02:17 PM
There`s one important point you`ve failed to mention:

What did you set the difficulty levels of the AI bombers? You have :

ROOKIE
AVERAGE
VETERAN
ACE

Default is AVERAGE.

I play the offline campaign a lot. And I see a little of what you describe, other times (especially later in the war when the AI experience has grown) they become much more accurate and tougher to hit, missing less. Often I get a mix in the same mission. Basically much more variety of AI than in the sterile QMB.

Sometimes if you fight against the LW at start of Campaign it`s really hard. I`ve grown to hate 110s. Their rear gunners are a pain, always smoking me in my lag 3 or I16. And don`t let em get on your SIX! One burst and it`s all over. I find I have to shoot hard and quick or the gunner will ruin my day. They are very effective as a pair also!The inexperienced ones are easy to deal with cos they often stall if you just hover behind them too long.

I can often tell inexperienced bombers in Campaign compared to experienced for the reasons you described earlier. e,g gunners lack of shooting or will to shoot. I often imagine it as a noobie gunner stage fright, a fumble as he sees the enemy plane bearing down on him, so he wastes precious time.

But that`s good cos I`m coming across a variety of experiences in enemy planes, some are crap, while other are much more savvy. This is how it was meant to work.

I think you are not testing on all settings and there by getting a limited view here, which is always the problem with QMB, versus Campaign, especially when testing AI...

Hmm,, this grew a bit long winded.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 11/13/0301:26PM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 02:23 PM
my obersvation about the new B17:

i flew it on a dogfight map and was attacked by a human Fw190 - no mk108.

after the first attack i got lot of messages, Gunner dead, Gunner wounded, some controls down.

i keep that always in mind when i m attacking AI B-17 and i think "man, why is that damn Bomber still flying"

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 06:53 PM
@SeaFireLIV:
this is about AI against AI

one funny thing in IL2 is that ACE crews tend to fire around wildly while rookies "safe" ammo



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:08 PM
Hi all:

1. level is average.
2. Note that I only discuss here the AI vs AI issue. No human pilots involved. Just AI fighters versus AI gunners.

If you look at campaigns...you will see your bombers get downed sistematically and easily by enemy AI with no fear or mercy. And the gunners hardly put a fight. If it is against Human pilots, it is very different story.

So, just to recap:

**AI gunners fire too little
**AI bombers defend themselves very poorly against AI planes.

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/falcofb.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:11 PM
great point xanty!
one hour ago i attacked 4 B-17 with 4 Bf-109G6late.
After a headon attack we came from behind and the AI gunners fired 2-3 times short bursts and the B-17 were downed very easily.
They should fire more often but hit less.
Also the issue with the german gunners: they don't hit anything with MG-15. Ok MG-15 is not a .50cal but they should hit something if the enemy is at 6 and doesnt move at all.

"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:16 PM
Xanty, I'm no expert so am only guessing (and this applies mostly to your excellent He-111, though others have similar gun setups), but could it be that the AI fighters are lining up so perfectly at the 6:00 that the 'gunner' AI cannot fire past the vertical stabilizer? If this is the case it might be hard for Oleg to fix.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:23 PM
"If you look at campaigns...you will see your bombers get downed sistematically and easily by enemy AI with no fear or mercy. And the gunners hardly put a fight. If it is against Human pilots, it is very different story."


I kinda agree with that
peeps here always criticizes FM's of planes but I think that the AI is the main issue right now

sometimes its just...UGH




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Message Edited on 11/13/0306:24PM by GunterAeroburst

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:55 PM
Yes, quiet man. That is what i am talking about!

Rookies hardly fire, while Aces fire alot, wildly.

It should be the other way:

GUNNERS:
*Rookie: start firing long burst from far away, with wide dispersion and missing alot. hardly any hits, almost no accuracy.

*Average: More controlled distances (from 0.8 onwards) but firing a lot, with little aim. Medium-low accuracy.

*Veteran: Controlled burst in clear angles. Shooting only when necesary, but still firing quite a lot. Mediocxre to goo accuracy

*Ace: They keep their fire until gun effective range (0.6?) and do accurate short burst, with little dispersion.

AI Fighters attacking bombers:

*Rookie: no planning of approach. Just from 6:00 or slighly avobe. Brakes as soon as he gets hit in any part of the plane (escared) and fires too much from too far (0.9 kmt or more). hardly any hits, almost no accuracy.

*Average: little planning of attack angles/possitions: behind, side and high/low. Fires long burst from medium distance (0.7+-) and brakes when he gets slighly damaged. Medium accuracy.

*Veteran: Accurate burst, from medium distances. Planned attacs from beam, sides, top or back. Good accuracy.

*Ace: Planned attacks from front and sides and from avobe. Accurate shooting from medium distances, and taking care of not getting shot down.

What do you think?

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/falcofb.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 08:01 PM
ok, xanty, AI vs AI. I should have read it twice. And it appears you`ve checked on other difficulty levels.....
Good points then....


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 11/13/0307:02PM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 04:20 AM
Very interesting & any attention spent towards improving ai is very valuable imho.

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 06:00 AM
Hm, I posted something similar here about ai gunners, only with human players attacking and me piloting the bomber.

The most stupid thing I saw regarding the "firing-too-less" issue was just today:

I just had taken off witha perfectly healthy B-17G, and I saw a damaged Pe-8 coming in from behind. Since I knew that the aft defensive armament of the 17 is much heavier than the forward armament of the Pe-8, I slowed down so my gunners could rip him apart.
The enemy closed in, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, closer and closer, and while his forward gunner was shooting and damaging me, there was not a single shot fired in return by my gunners. They didnt even fire when he was almost directly above me, at 0,08.
Only one or two of them fired a few shots AFTER he had passed me and had filled up my plane with bullets. And just when my gunners fired (enemy was already away at 0,44), my pilot got killed and I was downed.


This is overall very strange, cause sometimes the gunners react quite well, but also sometimes they practically refuse to even aim at the enemy!
So I think this:

While I think the accuracy is ok (of all shots fired at enemys, they miss by about 93%; go fly a scripted dogfight and see for yourself with "gunstat"), the aggressiveness/reaction of the gunners has to be improved and stabilized. I want my gunners to ALWAYS react, aim and shoot at enemys when they get closer than 0,8 - 0,7.



- Future

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 06:21 AM
Maybe its the skill level of the crew. It has effects on both gunner and bombing skill; about gunner motivation, I dunno.

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 06:50 AM
I'd be happy with the best from every skill level combined into just one for bombers, even fighters. Right now there's so much flakey stuff that many levels are just plain unuseable. AI's been neglected way too long, rather long in the tooth. Can't remember the last patch or add on readme file that listed any signifigant AI behavior changes.

Whats the point in having the worlds greatest flight and damage models when your AI can't even come close to an antique sim like EAW?

XyZspineZyX
11-15-2003, 06:51 AM
And a BUMP! for this one too, so all threads about this are together.

XyZspineZyX
11-15-2003, 11:12 AM
RedManAce::
- I'd be happy with the best from every skill level
- combined into just one for bombers, even fighters. Right
- now there's so much flakey stuff that many levels are
- just plain unuseable. AI's been neglected way too long,
- rather long in the tooth. Can't remember the last patch
- or add on readme file that listed any signifigant AI
- behavior changes.

Its frustrating for offwhiners. Everybody says just fly onwhine against humanoids, but that's the easy cheap way out. With some *good* updated programming, Average AI should approach the average onwhine humanoid opponent. I don't even bother with communicating with AI elements in formation anymore. A waste.