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View Full Version : HOw ouwld the De Havilland Vampire stand up to the Me262,P80,Meteor?



Xiolablu3
05-24-2006, 03:17 PM
The other Brtitish Jet aircraft developed during WW2 was the De Havilland Vampire, it holds/held a number of world records (altitude,first jet from a carrier, probably others).

It entered service in April 1945, it was delayed due to the need to send the sole remaining flight engine (Rolls Royce Goblin) to Lockheed to replace one destroyed in ground engine runs in the prototype XP-80.

Does anyone know how this plane would have faired versus the other jets of the period>? (The Me262,P80,He162,Meteor)

VW-IceFire
05-24-2006, 03:26 PM
I know for sure that it'd outturn the lot of them as the Vampire had a better turn than the Spitfire XIV so right there is an advantage. I think it was, as you mention, great in the climb as well so at least two advantages probably.

It'd be a solid opponent. The Meteor F.4 was decent but the Vampire was supposed to be quite a bit better.

SkyChimp
05-24-2006, 06:25 PM
I don't know a lot about the Vampire. But just a quick check of some of my books reveals the DH 100 Vampire was very reliable and easy to fly. Compared to the P-80A, it appears to have been slightly slower, with a somewhat better climb rate, much better wing loading and better thrust-to-weight ratio. Service ceilings were about the same. I don't know what the roll-rate of the Vampire was, but the P-80s rolled as fast as the Fw-190 at about 165 degrees per second, so the P-80 would be tough to beat. The P-80 had a much longer range.

The Vampire was obviouysly a good plane, it served with various aire force for forever and a day.

Waldo.Pepper
05-25-2006, 12:41 AM
oes anyone know how this plane would have faired versus the other jets of the period>? (The Me262,P80,He162,Meteor)


Don't you have cfs3?

HellToupee
05-25-2006, 12:48 AM
Well the vampire had 4 20mm cannons http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so it wins there.

Badsight.
05-25-2006, 12:50 AM
Xiolablu3 , not long ago Aeroplane magazine had some Meteor pilots give their Koren war memories

one NZ Meteor pilot (F8 Meteor) said under 25,000 feet the F8 Meteor would out-zoom the Saber & would out-turn it as well

the Saber could walk away from the Meteor . it was him flying the Meteor & a visiting Saber pilot to his airfeild . this was just his impressions but he did say they flew them against each other for a couple of days

the Mk-1 Vampire could go as fast as 540 Mph maybe (according to some sources) which is also the figure for Me-262's top speed (some sources have it slightly faster , but who knows what its accell would be like , it almost definantly had a turn advantage over the Me-262 - lower weight & much better wing load

so in a gunzo 1v1 the Mk1 Vampire (1946) would stand an excellent chance against the 262

the Mk4 Meteor was in service in 47 & was faster again than the Vampire . was said to be the first Meteor to have Schwalb beating performance all-round

The-Pizza-Man
05-25-2006, 01:10 AM
The RAAF pilots who flew the Meteor in Korea didn't think it was that much chop against a MiG-15. Although they did shoot a few MiGs down but I think the MiG-15s got the better of the Meteor when it comes to kill ratio.

woofiedog
05-25-2006, 01:31 AM
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/air-recent/meteors-japan.jpg
Meteors [Meteor Mark 8
]of the RAAF 77 Sqn in Korea lined up on the strip.

Pilot Officer (later Air Vice Marshal) Bill Simmonds

Pilots of 77 Squadron started out in the Korean War flying P-51 Mustang aircraft. Originally designed as a fighter during the Second World War, the piston-engine Mustang had lost its technical edge by the time of the Korean War, and was more suited to ground-support roles.

When Soviet-built, MiG-15 jet fighters appeared in Korean skies after China entered the war, they soon demonstrated their superior performance. While American squadrons had jet fighters of their own - F-80 Shooting Stars, and later Sabres - only the Sabres could match the MiGs for performance and versatility.

In April 1951, 77 Squadron replaced its Mustangs with the British-built twin-jet Meteor Mark 8. The RAAF pilots were trained on the Meteors by four experienced British RAF pilots, at the Iwakuni base in Japan.

Although the Meteor had also been developed during the Second World War, it was thought to be more capable of surviving encounters with the Soviet MiG-15 jet. In Korea, air-to-air combat entered the jet age, but when in August 1951 the jet adversaries met, the Meteors did not fare well. The speed (1084 km/hour, 122 km/hour faster than Meteors), rate of climb, and performance at high altitudes MiGs a far superior aircraft. In subsequent months, the role of the Meteor as a fighter was reconsidered, and it was withdrawn from "MiG Alley" for use as a ground-attack aircraft in areas where MiGs were rarely encountered.

Link: http://www.awm.gov.au/korea/weapons/mustangs/mustangs.htm

woofiedog
05-25-2006, 01:39 AM
Also must add this article...

Meteor Operations in Korea:

First Mig Kill

77 Squadron finally achieved its first confirmed Mig-15 kill on 1 December 1951 when twelve Meteors were engaged by over fifty Migs in an epic dogfight over Pyongyang. In the opening attack, two Meteors were damaged with one, A77-559 flown by Flight Sergeant Bill Middlemiss, being forced to return to Kimpo. Flying Officer B. Gogerly (A77-17) latched onto the tail of one of the enemy jets, and watched as his cannon rounds sent pieces flying from the Mig€s fuselage. The aircraft crashed in a ball of flames. Several other pilots had fired at Migs and a second aircraft was seen to hit the ground.

All pilots checked in at the end of the battle, however, ten minutes later when the order was given to head for home, three Meteors were found to be missing. It is assumed that they were taken by surprise as they turned for home. Two of the missing pilots Sergeant B. Thompson (A77-29) and Sergeant V. Drummond (A77-251) were captured after having ejected safely. The third pilot Flight Sergeant E. Armitt (A77-949) was killed when his aircraft was shot down. The Squadron had its first Mig kills, but had paid a high price.

The contribution made by 77 Squadron during the three years of the Korean War is totally out of proportion to its size. During the war the Squadron flew a total of 18,872 sorties, comprising of 3,872 Mustang sorties and 15,000 Meteor sorties. The effect this had on the enemy was devastating; 3,700 buildings, 1,500 vehicles, 16 bridges, 20 locomotives and 65 railway carriages destroyed. The outstanding results achieved by 77 Squadron, evidently much higher than usual for a single squadron, would not have been possible without the support of 391 (Base) and 491 (Maintenance) Squadrons. The level of technical support was outstanding, resulting in close to 100% serviceability for the Mustangs andMeteors. To achieve this, maintenance crews often worked up to sixteen hours per day under extremely harsh, and often wet, conditions.

It must not be forgotten though, that 38 personnel lost their lives and seven pilots were captured serving their country.


Link: http://www.kmike.com/oz/77/MK8OPS.htm

woofiedog
05-25-2006, 01:55 AM
??? Two model types of Meteor's I have found all being used in the same Group...

http://www.sandlehobbies.com/decals/redroo/72/rrd723101.jpg

http://www.raaf.gov.au/airpower/html/historical/images/METEOR_MK8_77SQN_FltLine.jpg

Also scroll down about 3/4 of the page... it shows the later model being loaded up for Korea.

Links:
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/MEGGS_meteor.html
http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46172
http://www.awm.gov.au/korea/ausinkorea/raaf/raaf.htm
http://www.korean-war.com/AirWar/GreatBritain.html

stathem
05-25-2006, 04:06 AM
Iirc, one of the major reasons development of the Vampire was put on the backburner in 43/44 was that De Havilland were rather busy with a certain other very fine aircraft.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2006, 04:26 AM
Some good info here guys, keep it coming http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Interesting that it had a twin boom layout like the P38 although it had just one engine.

HellToupee
05-25-2006, 06:07 AM
that was so the engine wouldnt have to have a big long pipe out the back along the tail which would be wasting engine power.

p1ngu666
05-25-2006, 08:30 AM
DH aircraft did tend tobe good...

Dtools4fools
05-25-2006, 09:28 AM
I'm sure the Vampire would have done against the 45 Me262 - if that would not have been developed further by 47...
Which leads to another question: how would have an improved 47 or 48 Me262 have perfomed compared with other jets of this time?

The Swiss for sure liked their DH jets, all of them including the Hunter.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> The surviving Swiss Vampire force -- 59 single-seaters and 30 two-seaters -- was finally officially phased out in 1990 </pre>

Pretty good aircraft and quite some value for your money if it stays in air force service for some 30 (!!!!) years...

*****

luftluuver
05-25-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Iirc, one of the major reasons development of the Vampire was put on the backburner in 43/44 was that De Havilland were rather busy with a certain other very fine aircraft. Also one of the engines was sent to the USA for the XP-80.

Aaron_GT
05-25-2006, 01:45 PM
The Swiss for sure liked their DH jets, all of them including the Hunter.

The Hunter's a Hawker plane!

Dtools4fools
05-27-2006, 12:36 PM
Yep, indeed!

My mistake...
Too much beer in the brain...

Cheers!

*****