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Jex_TG
05-11-2005, 09:11 AM
I went looking for examples of sub deck-gun attacks on shipping, wondering how much damage a sub could do with its deck guns considering the amount of discussions about them on these forums.

Check the link also as it gives the Patrol of the sub Zwaardvis (perhaps dutch for TARDIS? oooh... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif).

What I find interesting is the amount of ships she sank with the deck gun alone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



6 Aug - 7 Sep 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) patrols the Strait of Malacca. She departs from Trincomalee and after the patrol she will return to Fremantle. Several junks are attacked during this patrol

18 Aug 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) uses her deck gun to sink the Japanese junk Kim Hup Soen (48t). Position: 04?00'N-99?32'E.

We are still looking for a photo of the Kim Hup Soen. Do you have one ? Then please contact us at webmaster@dutchsubmarines.com.

19 Aug 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) uses her deck gun to sink two Japanese junks (+/- 50t and 100t). Position: 04?30'N-98?15'E.

21 Aug 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) uses her deck gun to sink a Japanese junk (+/- 32t). Position: 04?15'N-99?14'E.

31 Aug 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) conducts a reconnaissance mission to Christmas island.

7 Sep 1944 - May 1945: Zwaardvisch (1) is based at Fremantle and is under U.S. operational command

26 Sep - 26 Oct 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) patrols the Java Sea. Several ships are attacked.

4 Oct 1944: Zwaardvisch (1) uses her deck gun to sink a Japanese tanker (+/- 500t). Position: north east of Bali,.


from http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boat_zwaardvis1.htm

Jex_TG
05-11-2005, 09:18 AM
Also note the recon mission she undertakes, and on the webpage, later on in the war she sinks...



25 Apr 1945: Off Soerabaja Zwaardvisch (1) sinks the Prau's Nomura, loaded with coal, and Albania (40t and 30t). Both boats are sunk by demolition charges.


Now wouldn't these types of missions be great to play out in SH3?

scourtney2
05-11-2005, 09:31 AM
Yes, but you must note that this is the Pacific Theater in 1944. My grandfather served on US submarine in the Pacific during the war and the sunk NUMEROUS ships with their deck gun as well as the 50 caliber machine guns that they mounted on top while surfaced. Notice the ships that they attack. These are not large cargo ships, just small Junks.

My grandfather used to tell me that the junks they sunk would open up like a paper bag when they shot them wth the 50's. He said they could tear the bow right off and they'd go down like a sack of bricks.

Even the mentioned 500 ton tanker is laughibly small. IN the Atlantic, it was a different story. Deck guns would not hardly see any use by 1944 for the germans with the threat of air attack, armed merchants, and simple removal of these "auxillary" weapons.

It would be interesting to see damage reports or sinking reports for larger merchant shipping in the atlantic. Sinking a japanese junk with a torpedo would be like trying to light a ciggarette with a cruise missle. It is just over-kill. Plus, a torpedo would not even be able to sink a small junk with such shallow draft I would believe.

Oak_Groove
05-11-2005, 09:31 AM
What I find interesting is the amount of ships she sank with the deck gun alone


Note size of ships sunk.

Jex_TG
05-11-2005, 09:46 AM
Yes I noticed the tonnage was rather small as well. The largest in on that page says around 2000t.

Intersting is the use of the demo charges. I wonder if the sub surfaced nearby at night and sent some scuba guys out. Now that would make for some great missions - trying to get into a port and close enough for you to launch some guys out to plant charges, and then get out before they blow.

So anyone know how effective german deck guns were against bigger targets?

pike1964
05-12-2005, 02:28 AM
"Zwaardvis" or "Zwaardvisch" in old spelling is Dutch for swordfish.

alanschu
05-12-2005, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TG:
Yes I noticed the tonnage was rather small as well. The largest in on that page says around 2000t.

Intersting is the use of the demo charges. I wonder if the sub surfaced nearby at night and sent some scuba guys out. Now that would make for some great missions - trying to get into a port and close enough for you to launch some guys out to plant charges, and then get out before they blow.

So anyone know how effective german deck guns were against bigger targets?

I'd bet against the scuba guys. I'd imagine the japanese either were all dead or surrendered and let them board. I don't see any "mission" here.

Jex_TG
05-12-2005, 03:40 AM
You don't?

You don't see sneaking into a harbour to drop off some german divers to scuba over to a boat and set some charges as a plausible mission? (Even if you could watch them actually do it). Perhaps your the type that likes the constant repitition of sinking convoys, with no change in the scenery.

I think a few "out of the ordinary" missions, dotted here and there, make great games and breaks up the whole game, giving you different objectives. There could be a dozen or so "speciality" missions that could come up randomly as a radio order from bdu. If they're rare enough, and not all the time (i.e. like maybe 1 - 3 a year), it would keep the game more intersting perhaps.

W.Irving
05-12-2005, 05:08 AM
U-boats were used to drop off spies in foreign countries - notably in the US - as well as for transports of war material. Not to mention as mine layers!
The patrol missions are dull. Some variation would be muchly appreciated!

Maj_Solo
05-12-2005, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TG:
You don't?

You don't see sneaking into a harbour to drop off some german divers to scuba over to a boat and set some charges as a plausible mission? (Even if you could watch them actually do it). Perhaps your the type that likes the constant repitition of sinking convoys, with no change in the scenery.

I think a few "out of the ordinary" missions, dotted here and there, make great games and breaks up the whole game, giving you different objectives. There could be a dozen or so "speciality" missions that could come up randomly as a radio order from bdu. If they're rare enough, and not all the time (i.e. like maybe 1 - 3 a year), it would keep the game more intersting perhaps.

I am captain of the boat, but there is someone who is higher and me and if I thought I as a captain had the entire mission planned, big surprise, someone else has made plans for me. I agree it would be much better ....

Oak_Groove
05-12-2005, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TG:
Intersting is the use of the demo charges. I wonder if the sub surfaced nearby at night and sent some scuba guys out. Now that would make for some great missions - trying to get into a port and close enough for you to launch some guys out to plant charges, and then get out before they blow.


Kriegsmarine U-Boat crews used demolition charges mainly pre unrestricted U-Boat warfare, as the Prisenordnung was still in effect. An example; after stopping a neutral merchant suspected of carrying contrabant, a small detachment was sent aboard. If contrabant was found and it was unsafe or unreasonable to seize the ship for later re-deployment in german service, the merchant crew was ordered to disembark and demolition charges were placed to sink it.