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P51er
07-28-2008, 05:51 PM
Hey all, looking for some advice on dealing with Focke-Wulf 190s online, particularly the D9 variant.

The fight generally begins one of three ways.

1) I'm at a higher altitude, spot one, begin diving on it. The 190 sees me coming, starts diving for the deck, runs home.

2) I'm co-alt. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts diving for the deck, runs home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm diving for the deck and attempting to run home.

3) I'm at a lower altitude. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts running home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm attempting to run home (generally this).

Is there a point in trying to dogfight these things? Is there something lacking in it's performance envelope I'm not recognizing? The only kills I tend to get on these things is when they don't see me diving on them from above, or when one of them decides to get in a turn-fight when I'm in a Spit (not something I can control).

For a little background: I usually fly P-51 variants, but also enjoy the Spitfire.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

DKoor
07-28-2008, 06:03 PM
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

You can on the other hand fly only BnZ which will stellar up your K/D ratio, also fly wing someone or vice versa, group survivability is much much higher than when you are alone.

It is the way it's meant to be played.

I take it you play on no external views/pit always on servers?

*fixed

P51er
07-28-2008, 06:11 PM
Usually fly on no externals, pit always on. Usually Warclouds WF, to be precise.

VW-IceFire
07-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Get a plane that can dive better than they can. Thunderbolt, Mustang, or Tempest can all match or run down FW190D-9s and beat it. Infact all four of these types are similar in performance attributes and the key factor is piloting and tactics/initial position.

The FW190 is one of the best fighters of WWII and its no small surprise that when well flown they are causing trouble.

DKoor
07-28-2008, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by P51er:
Usually fly on no externals, pit always on. Usually Warclouds WF, to be precise. Yeah sorry I fixed my initial post, I meant no externals + always pit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Yeah on WarClouds you're gonna need a partner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

It's pretty much very tough job flying there alone, regardless which aircraft you fly.
You can however be extra careful but where's the fun in that?
Nowhere I say, because I did that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Benefits are enormous, you can survive fight vs multiple enemies almost regularly, also you may survive some mistakes you make, mistakes that would normally end up fatally if you fly alone.
Also flying in group is - fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

I know that you probably use less fuel than 100% (50% is recommended), P-51 behaves differently (better) when less fuel is used, but I will say it nevertheless http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Also don't know if you know, but in dive you can use less prop pitch with little to no speed loss, but cooling your engine is a benefit.
However never use less prop pitch (than 100) in climb during fight your airplane will climb like a beaten dog http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

M_Gunz
07-28-2008, 08:39 PM
Try lowering your rpms (prop pitch on P-51) as you approach and pass full level speed in dives.

HayateAce
07-28-2008, 10:53 PM
Ditch that PoS51 (as oleg has modeled it) and hop in the Tempest baby!!!

She is my exclusive lady these days and I have never seen so many 190 tails and wings falling to the ground in my IL2 career. It is truly a turkey shoot.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

na85
07-29-2008, 12:32 AM
The 190 series have particularly nasty damage models when it comes to the wings. One or two hits is usually all it takes to negate his speed advantage and decimate his turn performance. Use your 50's to ping his wings. Maybe you'll get lucky and hit an aileron too

K_Freddie
07-29-2008, 02:06 AM
I'm surprised they didn't turn and fight as it's very easy to whip either P51, even with an A9.. - chickens... cluck cluck cluck !!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Col.BBQ
07-29-2008, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by P51er: The only kills I tend to get on these things is when they don't see me <span class="ev_code_RED">diving on them from above</span> , or when one of them decides to get in a turn-fight when I'm in a Spit (not something I can control).

Here's your problem, you're diving on the target where the D9 pilot can see you and take action. You must dive below the D9 some distance away and hit him where the D9 pilot cannot see you.

Xiolablu3
07-29-2008, 05:31 AM
A problem here is that the FW190D is heavily overused compared to its RL numbers. I absolutely dont blame blue pilots for using it if its there, its an awesome plane.

Also the P51D is really an early 1944 plane, whereas the FW190D9 is an early 1945 plane, so the P51 is almost a year behind. Its a bit like using the SPitfire Vb 1941 vs 109E's.

To succeed in the P51 you must use all the written rules of Air combat, catch them by surprise, use height, attack fast and shoot close. There are many P51 aces who use the craft well, but if you are having no luck, try HayateAces suggestion of the Tempest, this is a late 1944 plane rather than early 1944 and it has those big cannons.

It is a bit more stable than IL2s P51 too, which makes it a good killer. My biggest gripe with the P51 is how its 'wobbly', even when it has low fuel, and its very hard to get a good burst on target without a lot of practice, and you NEED a good burst when you dont have cannons.

I find the nose 'wobbling' as I try to aim and the gunsight straying back and forth across the target, resulting in 2/3 of your rounds missing.

The P51 in IL2 is a strange one, its supposed to be a far better craft than any of the other US birds in real life, but I dont see the improvement in IL2. The P47 is the better plane in IL2 IMO. Also the P38 is at least as good. Eric Brown listed it as one of his top 3 WW2 aircraft along with the Spitfire XIV and FW190D9. Can you guys honestly say that after flying it ingame, Eric would put IL2's P51 in the class of the Dora and better than the SPitfire IX 25lbs?

Just my thoughts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFMondo
07-29-2008, 05:42 AM
To the original poster, what do you refer to as a higher altitude?

Below about 5000m the D9 holds all the performance cards compared with the P51D. Not by much but that extra few mph it can get at lower altitudes means all the difference to an experianced 190 jock.

The best suggestion I can make other than what previous posters have said is work in a pair. Stay with the P51, its better than the P47 at lower altitude, just find yourself someone to fly with and when your chasing down a Dora try a drag and bag.

make sure you don't fly with more than 50% fuel either until your comfortable with the 51's limits.

BGs_Ricky
07-29-2008, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Also the P51D is really an early 1944 plane, whereas the FW190D9 is an early 1945 plane, so the P51 is almost a year behind.

Bubble-top P-51s appeared in numbers during the summer of 1944.
III/JG 54 received the first Doras in September 1944.
The early 1944 Mustang is the P-51B.

But it's true that the percentage of Doras usually found on late war servers is usually too high.

Kettenhunde
07-29-2008, 06:14 AM
A problem here is that the FW190D is heavily overused compared to its RL numbers.

I don't know about your game and will leave that discussion up to you guys.

I will point out that the Dora was a major variant and formed the backbone of the FW190 equipped Fighter Gruppen after 12/44. It is the next FW-190 variant we plan to restore.

Looking at numbers, the FW-190D9 approximates FW-190A2, FW190A3, and FW-190A4 production combined.

You probably just do not realize how small a force the Luftwaffe was in reality. If one thinks on the scale of the Allied Air Forces then the number of Dora's produced seems paltry.

The ~1800 Dora's produced is pretty small considering the fact the Allies could put far more fighters in the air at once.

In terms of Focke Wulf production, the FW-190D9 is the second most prolific variant in the entire series. Only the FW-190A8 was produced in larger numbers.

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1861/dscf2389gw9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1861/dscf2389gw9.5ad3398ee4.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=362&i=dscf2389gw9.jpg)

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg2.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg2.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg26.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg26.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg26.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html


All the best,

Crumpp

Clipper_51
07-29-2008, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by P51er:
Hey all, looking for some advice on dealing with Focke-Wulf 190s online, particularly the D9 variant.

The fight generally begins one of three ways.

1) I'm at a higher altitude, spot one, begin diving on it. The 190 sees me coming, starts diving for the deck, runs home.

2) I'm co-alt. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts diving for the deck, runs home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm diving for the deck and attempting to run home.

3) I'm at a lower altitude. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts running home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm attempting to run home (generally this).

Is there a point in trying to dogfight these things? Is there something lacking in it's performance envelope I'm not recognizing? The only kills I tend to get on these things is when they don't see me diving on them from above, or when one of them decides to get in a turn-fight when I'm in a Spit (not something I can control).

For a little background: I usually fly P-51 variants, but also enjoy the Spitfire.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

You really just need to hone your fighting skills, not necessarily your flying skills.
See to me, in your three scenarios, your best chance in a WF server against a 190D, is in a P-51! You're dead in Spitfre in those situations, you're definately dead in a P-47 and you are likely dead in a P-38. Only in a Mustang can you win or survive.

Dora's aren't that big of a deal. I would suggest that you look at combat in a Mustang as a strictly high speed endeavor.

You can fight and win against a Dora easily if you keep your plane in it's best performance envelope during combat and not make mistakes (like attack a large group solo). Usually, the other guy (Dora pilot) does something wrong and then you have him. Even if you face a good Dora driver, if you fly the Mustang right, it will usually end in a draw.

Hook up with me on WC and I'll fly with you.

Bremspropeller
07-29-2008, 06:30 AM
The D-9 was the second-most produced Fw 190 model (more than 1800 built) after the A-8 (more than 6600 built).

Keep that in mind. As Crumpp said, there were almost as many Doras as A-2s, A-3s and A-4s COMBINED!

The Doras were by no means "too little", just "too late". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DKoor
07-29-2008, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The P51 in IL2 is a strange one, its supposed to be a far better craft than any of the other US birds in real life, but I dont see the improvement in IL2. The P47 is the better plane in IL2 IMO. Also the P38 is at least as good. Eric Brown listed it as one of his top 3 WW2 aircraft along with the Spitfire XIV and FW190D9. Can you guys honestly say that after flying it ingame, Eric would put IL2's P51 in the class of the Dora and better than the SPitfire IX 25lbs?

Just my thoughts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Seeing the P-51D in game as an aircraft that would lose most equal fights vs FW-190A9/D9 and vs Bf-109G6AS/14/10/K4 the answer to your question is almost certainly no. The only real thing that makes a real difference there in those fights on serious servers is an ultimate masochistic nature of it's disciplined fliers.

It's actually a good thing that IL2 is only a game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Xiolablu3
07-29-2008, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The D-9 was the second-most produced Fw 190 model (more than 1800 built) after the A-8 (more than 6600 built).

Keep that in mind. As Crumpp said, there were almost as many Doras as A-2s, A-3s and A-4s COMBINED!

The Doras were by no means "too little", just "too late". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I would say they were ABSOLUTELY that, but I am not taking anything away from the excellent design.

However, by 1945 the war was easily lost. What the Luftwaffe needed was far more pilots and aircraft in 1941-43 when they still had a real chance.

Bremspropeller
07-29-2008, 07:51 AM
Why'd they be "too little"?

They were the SECOND MOST produced 190s.

Let's have a look at the books and see how many units had been transitioned to Doras when the war ended:

Stab/ and I./JG 1

Stab/ , I./ and III./JG 2

IV./JG 3

Stab/JG 4

Stab/ and II./JG 6

Stab/JG 11

I./ , II./ , III./ and IV./JG 26 => the entire Geschwader...

III./JG 54

II./JG 300

II./ JG 301

JV 44


Not exactly "too little", but certainly "too late".

JZG_Thiem
07-29-2008, 08:15 AM
They were too little in terms of being able to stem the tide of allied aircraft, not little in absolute numbers. Thats a difference.

P51er:
im flying regularly on WC too. At first im puzzled that you are reporting diving and running D9s, whereas its commonly known that the P51 can outrun the D9 in any "nose below the horizon" action at altitudes from the deck up to 5k at least. This is due to the superior speed-retention when leveling out beyond top-speed.
I can give you names of guys who do this regulary with 100% success rate.

The reason why they are not accepting a turnfight or whatsoever is that they know that the D9 cant really turn for a longer time with the P51, opposed to what people here want to make you believe.
However fuel load plays an important role. If The D9 is very low on fuel while you just climbed up with full tanks, then they dont have to disengage.

If you dont follow him "diving down to the deck" you anyway just achieved a tactical victory. You just didnt get a kill. A D9 diving for the deck, with you maybe reporting his whereabouts is in a very bad situation.

As it was pointed out earlier, all Fw190 models have a major flaw in this game: They are easy to cripple with 50cal his in the wings. Even single (or few) hits will make wings drop drastically, making dogfights impossible, while the biggest effect is loss of top speed between 50-100km, which makes it an easy prey even for something comparably slow like a Mk9.

In general you have to know that the D9 has a distinct speed advantage ove the P51 between 5-7k. So try to get higher. From my experience a D9 can fight P51s up to 7k, then it will lose (given similar E-states at the engagement). Yet pilot ability is still the major contributing factor.

DKoor
07-29-2008, 09:05 AM
It was hard for Luftwaffe before Allies broke in the Europe from West, after that it was practically a walk over for Allies in terms of who's winning the battle. Luftwaffe wasn't a force that could be, even remotely compared to the might of 8th & 15th AF let alone those merged with RAF too.

An impossible task which could only be done by introducing a vastly superior planes on defending side.

Note that I don't consider a FW-190D9 "vastly superior" to its opposition http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Me-262 on the other hand is another "cat", and with some of its deficiencies remedied it really could stop/cripple daily bombings, and that only if introduced in significant numbers and of course lead by experienced men.
Luftwaffe was by mid 1944 chronically short of ALL that; aircraft, men, experience, aircraft parts, oil, fuel; everything.

GH_Klingstroem
07-29-2008, 09:11 AM
Its funny. I treat my p51 very very gently in manouvers. She very seldom lets me down. Its all about practice. If a D9 can catch u in a dive he either had more speed to start with, OR you are doing something wrong. As was mentioned earlier in this thread. The P51 maintains her E better than any other prop plane in the game. So after level out after long dive u will leave everything behind!
I do this daily when I need to. Nothing wrong with using ur speed to get away from an AC. Thats after all what makes a fighter great! YOU chose when to fight NOT HIM! Thats the best benefit any fighter could ever have.
You using ur speed in p51 to survive is nothing stranger than a spitfire using its superiour turnrate to survive. Use ur AC´s strenghts!

cheers

DKoor
07-29-2008, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
The reason why they are not accepting a turnfight or whatsoever is that they know that the D9 cant really turn for a longer time with the P51, opposed to what people here want to make you believe. Mate nothing personal but you sound like you think that a experienced P-51D pilot can regularly expect to win a fight vs experienced FW-190D9 pilot by mixing it up in close combat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

That I have to see to believe.
At time when I flew FW-190D9 @ WC I wasn't particularly experienced FW player (ok generally speaking in terms of time spent on playing the game I was, but there were a lot of players who are flying both FW-190 and P-51 for a loong periods of time and they know these birds inside out certainly better than me). I actually always tried to lure them into slow combat on deck, which many times end up as circling contest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

I just hope that you wont take my post as attempt of trolling, but really, no aircraft on allied side was such an easy kill in close combat as P-51. Those were my experiences when fighting P-51's in slower fights.
You know the likes of guys who fly P-51 on WC, those guys mostly aren't noobs.

tragentsmith
07-29-2008, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P51er:
Hey all, looking for some advice on dealing with Focke-Wulf 190s online, particularly the D9 variant.

The fight generally begins one of three ways.

1) I'm at a higher altitude, spot one, begin diving on it. The 190 sees me coming, starts diving for the deck, runs home.

2) I'm co-alt. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts diving for the deck, runs home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm diving for the deck and attempting to run home.

3) I'm at a lower altitude. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts running home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm attempting to run home (generally this).

Is there a point in trying to dogfight these things? Is there something lacking in it's performance envelope I'm not recognizing? The only kills I tend to get on these things is when they don't see me diving on them from above, or when one of them decides to get in a turn-fight when I'm in a Spit (not something I can control).

For a little background: I usually fly P-51 variants, but also enjoy the Spitfire.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

You really just need to hone your fighting skills, not necessarily your flying skills.
See to me, in your three scenarios, your best chance in a WF server against a 190D, is in a P-51! You're dead in Spitfre in those situations, you're definately dead in a P-47 and you are likely dead in a P-38. Only in a Mustang can you win or survive.

Dora's aren't that big of a deal. I would suggest that you look at combat in a Mustang as a strictly high speed endeavor.

You can fight and win against a Dora easily if you keep your plane in it's best performance envelope during combat and not make mistakes (like attack a large group solo). Usually, the other guy (Dora pilot) does something wrong and then you have him. Even if you face a good Dora driver, if you fly the Mustang right, it will usually end in a draw.

Hook up with me on WC and I'll fly with you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clipper...... Didn't I shoot you down with a Me110 :P

Nah, just teasing, actually what he says is right in every spot. It's just that some pilots are better in one plane that others. Practice and teamplay will save you.

tragentsmith
07-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
The reason why they are not accepting a turnfight or whatsoever is that they know that the D9 cant really turn for a longer time with the P51, opposed to what people here want to make you believe. Mate nothing personal but you sound like you think that a experienced P-51D pilot can regularly expect to win a fight vs experienced FW-190D9 pilot by mixing it up in close combat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .



That I have to see to believe.
At time when I flew FW-190D9 @ WC I wasn't particularly experienced FW player (ok generally speaking in terms of time spent on playing the game I was, but there were a lot of players who are flying both FW-190 and P-51 for a loong periods of time and they know these birds inside out certainly better than me). I actually always tried to lure them into slow combat on deck, which many times end up as circling contest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

I just hope that you wont take my post as attempt of trolling, but really, no aircraft on allied side was such an easy kill in close combat as P-51. Those were my experiences when fighting P-51's in slower fights.
You know the likes of guys who fly P-51 on WC, those guys mostly aren't noobs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True that the 51 is the worse aircraft in low speed dogfight on Warclouds. Even in the 110 I can do something against them.

idonno
07-29-2008, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Ditch that PoS51 (as oleg has modeled it) and hop in the Tempest baby!!!

She is my exclusive lady these days and I have never seen so many 190 tails and wings falling to the ground in my IL2 career. It is truly a turkey shoot.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


That's right, don't rise to the challenge. Just fly the airplane that makes killing effortless. That's what it's all about, right?

JtD
07-29-2008, 11:39 AM
The D-9 has both a higher dive limit and a higher top speed on the deck than the P-51. In both cases it isn't that much, so you should be able to catch up with them if you had the initial advantage. I don't consider it wise, though, as down low you're at high risk of getting bounced. I say if he wants to run, let him run. If he wants to fight, fight him between 2000 and 3000 meters or above 7000 meters. On these altitudes you are about on par with it. On other altitudes the D-9 has the advantage.

If you're on a server full of running Doras, you might consider to set your convergence to a large distance and to shoot them from far away while they think they are running at a safe distance. If you hit them a couple of times from 700 meters out, they'll reconsider their tactics. In particular if one of the hits landed right between their eyes.

mortoma
07-29-2008, 12:00 PM
Which D9 are people talking about?? The Late D9 is faster down low and slower up high than the '44 D9 is. A quick check if IL2 compare confirms this.

Brain32
07-29-2008, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

LOL dude you need some serious education, the above has about 0,00% of similarity with real situation drop me a note on HL if you see me, I'm tired of explaining things with words here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Brain32
07-29-2008, 12:24 PM
The P51 in IL2 is a strange one, its supposed to be a far better craft than any of the other US birds in real life, but I dont see the improvement in IL2. The P47 is the better plane in IL2 IMO. Also the P38 is at least as good.
Wow, interesting comments, I have a completely different view. P47 is good but only at very high altitudes, like above 7000k, I mean up there it's just sick, but for all other A2A purposes P51 is so much better it's not even a contest, not to even mention P38L_late which although reasonably good multipurpose fighter isn't anything special in a pure A2A fighter role really, P51D is lightyears ahead of it.

DuckyFluff
07-29-2008, 12:29 PM
DKoor you really need to stay off the hallucinogenics if you believe that nonsense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The P51 is UNTOUCHABLE in WC, when flown correctly, and to its strengths; get a pair working together and they can dominate the server. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

FACT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif .

Zoom2136
07-29-2008, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:

You really just need to hone your fighting skills, not necessarily your flying skills.
See to me, in your three scenarios, your best chance in a WF server against a 190D, is in a P-51! You're dead in Spitfre. Only in a Mustang can you win or survive

This is to funny... you're dead in a Spit... The only chance the Dora has aginst a properly flown Spit is RUN......

So funny ;o)))

So so funny ;o))))

Erkki_M
07-29-2008, 01:13 PM
I know very well, Zoom, that the Spit is your favourite. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Against a properly flown fw/109 no Spit, except for the 25lbs perhaps, stands a chance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Besides, in many vs. many Spits are almost useless.

DuckyFluff
07-29-2008, 02:07 PM
Who needs a 190 when we have the 110 UBERDUBERZERSTORER no Spit or Tempest not to mention P51 is safe when the 110s are in the air http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif


110 ......so dangerous they tried to stop it flying in WC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Xiolablu3
07-29-2008, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The P51 in IL2 is a strange one, its supposed to be a far better craft than any of the other US birds in real life, but I dont see the improvement in IL2. The P47 is the better plane in IL2 IMO. Also the P38 is at least as good.
Wow, interesting comments, I have a completely different view. P47 is good but only at very high altitudes, like above 7000k, I mean up there it's just sick, but for all other A2A purposes P51 is so much better it's not even a contest, not to even mention P38L_late which although reasonably good multipurpose fighter isn't anything special in a pure A2A fighter role really, P51D is lightyears ahead of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its the 'wobblyness' and the wing breakage which makes me prefer the P47, mate.

With the P47 I can get a great burst onto the target, whereas with the P51 as I explained, the nose wobbling means I miss with a LOT of rounds.

Also I have to worry about breaking the wings on the P51, whereas with the P47 I can floor it as much as I want with no worries.

I realise its just practice, and possibly to a great pilot the P51 is the better bird, but to a good/average pilot like myself, I feel the P47 is the better bird ingame. I feel they are similar in performance (for me and my style of flying), but the P47 doesnt have the 'wobble' nor the wing break.

I dont feel the P51 has any real big advantage over the P47 ingame. Just the hindrances I listed above.

I fly them both in just the same way, really. Use their high speed dive and great high speed manouverability to bring the enemy down. Neither are great climber, and neither are good at low speed manouvering compared to a Bf109, La5FN or Spit.

Both of their guns need more than a passing/zooming burst to reliably take the enemy down for flyers with my level of skill.

DKoor
07-29-2008, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

LOL dude you need some serious education, the above has about 0,00% of similarity with real situation drop me a note on HL if you see me, I'm tired of explaining things with words here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>OK no prob.
BTW did FC ever put up that 51 vs 190 server? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Originally posted by DuckyFluff:
DKoor you really need to stay off the hallucinogenics if you believe that nonsense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The P51 is UNTOUCHABLE in WC, when flown correctly, and to its strengths; get a pair working together and they can dominate the server. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

FACT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif . My hallucinogenics are better than yours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , but thanks for a good laugh.

http://i35.tinypic.com/fkv9zm.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2pt9yes.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/jkvkig.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/90qbkh.jpg

...first who spot some curios disproportions between "won teh war" and the numbers on this pic gets a cookie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Xiolablu3
07-29-2008, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

LOL dude you need some serious education, the above has about 0,00% of similarity with real situation drop me a note on HL if you see me, I'm tired of explaining things with words here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>OK no prob.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with Dkoor, the Dora holds all the cards IMO.

With equal pilots in each, the ingame Dora does everything as well or better than the ingame P51D IMHO.

It takes a really good pilot to do well 1 vs 1 in the P51 vs a decent 190 flyer.

DuckyFluff
07-29-2008, 04:01 PM
You is wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

slipBall
07-29-2008, 04:18 PM
The D9 and all 190's are great aircraft...develope your skill level, and know your limitation's

Clipper_51
07-29-2008, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by tragentsmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P51er:
Hey all, looking for some advice on dealing with Focke-Wulf 190s online, particularly the D9 variant.

The fight generally begins one of three ways.

1) I'm at a higher altitude, spot one, begin diving on it. The 190 sees me coming, starts diving for the deck, runs home.

2) I'm co-alt. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts diving for the deck, runs home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm diving for the deck and attempting to run home.

3) I'm at a lower altitude. If I get an advantage/manage to get on it's six, it starts running home. If it gets the advantage, I get my tail shot off as I'm attempting to run home (generally this).

Is there a point in trying to dogfight these things? Is there something lacking in it's performance envelope I'm not recognizing? The only kills I tend to get on these things is when they don't see me diving on them from above, or when one of them decides to get in a turn-fight when I'm in a Spit (not something I can control).

For a little background: I usually fly P-51 variants, but also enjoy the Spitfire.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

You really just need to hone your fighting skills, not necessarily your flying skills.
See to me, in your three scenarios, your best chance in a WF server against a 190D, is in a P-51! You're dead in Spitfre in those situations, you're definately dead in a P-47 and you are likely dead in a P-38. Only in a Mustang can you win or survive.

Dora's aren't that big of a deal. I would suggest that you look at combat in a Mustang as a strictly high speed endeavor.

You can fight and win against a Dora easily if you keep your plane in it's best performance envelope during combat and not make mistakes (like attack a large group solo). Usually, the other guy (Dora pilot) does something wrong and then you have him. Even if you face a good Dora driver, if you fly the Mustang right, it will usually end in a draw.

Hook up with me on WC and I'll fly with you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clipper...... Didn't I shoot you down with a Me110 :P

Nah, just teasing, actually what he says is right in every spot. It's just that some pilots are better in one plane that others. Practice and teamplay will save you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup - you probably did!

Clipper_51
07-29-2008, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

LOL dude you need some serious education, the above has about 0,00% of similarity with real situation drop me a note on HL if you see me, I'm tired of explaining things with words here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>OK no prob.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with Dkoor, the Dora holds all the cards IMO.

With equal pilots in each, the ingame Dora does everything as well or better than the ingame P51D IMHO.

It takes a really good pilot to do well 1 vs 1 in the P51 vs a decent 190 flyer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but you're very wrong about this I'm afraid. The two planes are very similar with the Mustang holding some significant advantages.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the Dora. It's a wondeful plane with great firepower (the great equalizer). I give the edge to a Mustang in a close fight though.

As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we?

BenQ-the-Hawk
07-29-2008, 05:15 PM
if you fly @ high alt lets say 8000 and work together with another skilled pilot the d-9 is no match even if there are two flying together!

just think about your advantages
and get a wingman, as wingmans are almost bare necessaty for B&Z fighters

Viper2005_
07-29-2008, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by P51er:
Hey all, looking for some advice on dealing with Focke-Wulf 190s online, particularly the D9 variant.

The <span class="ev_code_RED">fight</span> generally begins one of three ways.


That would be your problem.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">The objective of the exercise is to kill the enemy, not to fight him.</span>

1) Get a superior energy state.

2) Find a target.

3) Take a pass.

4) Extend.

5) RE-ASSESS the situation... (you should have time to think about it!)

6) Repeat.

IME (and to be fair I'm somewhat rusty these days), the P-51D and the Fw-190 are reasonably evenly matched aeroplanes; the 190 has a greatly superior armament. But by the time you've found that out you've already made several potentially fatal mistakes.

You should aim never to give the enemy an opportunity to fly back. He might be a better pilot than you.

You should aim never to give the enemy an opportunity to shoot back. He might be a better shot than you.

***

If you want to dogfight, you're entering a rather different area of the envelope than the average fighter pilot would like to be in, and as such YMMV. I would seriously suggest that you pick a different aeroplane for the job; the P-51 doesn't have the most impressive armament, wing or power loading of the allied fighters.

It does, however, have the speed to allow you to pick your battles. The surest way to win is to run away bravely from the fights you might lose.

I'm sorry if this sounds rather cold-blooded.<span class="ev_code_red"> It is.</span>

(I make no claim to be a fighter ace. I was never much more than an average virtual mud-mover; I hope that what I have to say is of interest nevertheless.)

Clipper_51
07-29-2008, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P51er:
Hey all, looking for some advice on dealing with Focke-Wulf 190s online, particularly the D9 variant.

The <span class="ev_code_RED">fight</span> generally begins one of three ways.


That would be your problem.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">The objective of the exercise is to kill the enemy, not to fight him.</span>

1) Get a superior energy state.

2) Find a target.

3) Take a pass.

4) Extend.

5) RE-ASSESS the situation... (you should have time to think about it!)

6) Repeat.

IME (and to be fair I'm somewhat rusty these days), the P-51D and the Fw-190 are reasonably evenly matched aeroplanes; the 190 has a greatly superior armament. But by the time you've found that out you've already made several potentially fatal mistakes.

You should aim never to give the enemy an opportunity to fly back. He might be a better pilot than you.

You should aim never to give the enemy an opportunity to shoot back. He might be a better shot than you.

***

If you want to dogfight, you're entering a rather different area of the envelope than the average fighter pilot would like to be in, and as such YMMV. I would seriously suggest that you pick a different aeroplane for the job; the P-51 doesn't have the most impressive armament, wing or power loading of the allied fighters.

It does, however, have the speed to allow you to pick your battles. The surest way to win is to run away bravely from the fights you might lose.

I'm sorry if this sounds rather cold-blooded.<span class="ev_code_red"> It is.</span>

(I make no claim to be a fighter ace. I was never much more than an average virtual mud-mover; I hope that what I have to say is of interest nevertheless.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it in a nutshell. Viper did a much better job explaning it than I did.

WTE_Galway
07-29-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:

That's it in a nutshell. Viper did a much better job explaning it than I did.

Indeed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifTo the extent that IL2 is a historical sim .. it simulates the efficiency of various aircraft at killing.

You can do the whole "Hollywood hero bravado aerobatic air show furball" thing and its fun but it ain't that historical.

In fact IMO if you really want to dogfight put everyone in the same plane, preferably something like the CR42 or J8a, and spawn somewhere there are a lot of valleys and peaks that the planes have trouble getting over(the new Slovakia map is ideal) and go for broke.

FatCat_99
07-30-2008, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

LOL dude you need some serious education, the above has about 0,00% of similarity with real situation drop me a note on HL if you see me, I'm tired of explaining things with words here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>OK no prob.
BTW did FC ever put up that 51 vs 190 server? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's up to you, I said in CWOS that I'll host that but those who are interested should tell me when they want to fly. As far as I'm concerned any day after 22.00CET is fine.

If you and Brain agree I can set up server tonight. FW at 50%Fuel vs. P-51 at 25%Fuel seems like realistic and fair scenario. Airstart at 2000m. To keep it smooth I'll open 4 slots max. to enable 2 vs. 2 if there is someone else who want to participate.

IMO Dora is better plane in game, it's more versatile and it's performance is better at altitudes where most of online fights are.

It's also a more forgiving plane to fly which is good for people with lesser equipment, With P-51 you really need good stick and PC to reach it's full potential.

Another problem of P-51 are the pilots who fly them, 99% of them should switch to air races 'cause running is the only thing they do good.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FC

Clipper_51
07-30-2008, 07:31 AM
Another problem of P-51 are the pilots who fly them, 99% of them should switch to air races 'cause running is the only thing they do good.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FC[/QUOTE]

This coming from a 190 pilot is pretty funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DKoor
07-30-2008, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we? What.are.you.talking.about.

Tempest + P-51D5NT + P-5120NA = 19 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

FW-190D9 = 17 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

That is kinda self-explanatory, but only if you want to read.

ps. we don't know how many of those Tempest and P-51 'kills' are ground targets because both aircraft are able to carry the bombs, and Tempest even rockets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif , if you want it to put that way, and we can be fairly positive that none or very small amount of ground targets are ever attacked by FW-190D's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

DKoor
07-30-2008, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by FatCat_99:
It's up to you, I said in CWOS that I'll host that but those who are interested should tell me when they want to fly. As far as I'm concerned any day after 22.00CET is fine. Thanks, unfortunately tonight I'm going out to watch yet another Dinamo's raid on Europe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , and on Friday I'm off to teh Adriatic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , I'll be back in two weeks or so, tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

No41Sqn_Banks
07-30-2008, 07:56 AM
If your opponent would have a serious mission objective (protect bombers, protect ground targets, intercept bombers, attack ground targets) he would not run away that quickly, because everytime he does he has lost the mission objective.

It's not about killing the opponent fighter, it's about achieving the mission.

Brain32
07-30-2008, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we? What.are.you.talking.about.

Tempest + P-51D5NT + P-5120NA = 19 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

FW-190D9 = 17 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

That is kinda self-explanatory, but only if you want to read.

ps. we don't know how many of those Tempest and P-51 'kills' are ground targets because both aircraft are able to carry the bombs, and Tempest even rockets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif , if you want it to put that way, and we can be fairly positive that none or very small amount of ground targets are ever attacked by FW-190D's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should had seen those same stats before reset, some people left(Lixma, Schlum, FatBoy etc.), some people don't fly as often as before(like me), I was on all those pages(P51's, Tempest) either 1st or at the very least in the first 5 with T/S waaaaay over 1.0 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
On those FW pages I barely saw a new name in last 4 years...

Funny thing your comparision, it's maybe interesting then that only 5 ME109 pilots have T/S over 1.0 and none of them over 1.44 and there has never been so many trying(and deseperately failing) to show 109 can be used as there is now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OH and out of those 5, 2 places are taken by the same guy, so that makes only 4, oh and another thing, he has best results and now the really funny thing - he is a dedicated ground pounder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

foxyboy1964
07-30-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
...I'll be back in two weeks or so, tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

You sure? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Clipper_51
07-30-2008, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we? What.are.you.talking.about.

Tempest + P-51D5NT + P-5120NA = 19 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

FW-190D9 = 17 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

That is kinda self-explanatory, but only if you want to read.

ps. we don't know how many of those Tempest and P-51 'kills' are ground targets because both aircraft are able to carry the bombs, and Tempest even rockets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif , if you want it to put that way, and we can be fairly positive that none or very small amount of ground targets are ever attacked by FW-190D's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read English fine, thank you. You post WC stats showing Target scores of a couple of different planes that mean zero in terms of the original posters comments.

P-51's shoot down 190's and 109's for the most part. Check with any 51 pilot and ask him the ratio between 109's/190 kills and bomber/fighter bomber kills. No 51 pilot specializes in killing JU-88's and ME-110's. Frankly, it's too risky, due to your water-cooled engine.

I know MY kills in a Mustang, overwhelmingly, come from 190's and 109's. Mostly 190's, as not many guys fly the 109 on WC regularly. Out of the 190's I would guess about half are Dora's. Maybe less.

Dora's (with a 2x 20mm) shoot down 51's/47's/38's/Spit's/Tempest's/Havoc's/B-25's/occaisionally Mosquito.

So your silly cut and paste of WC stats means nothing in terms of what the original poster was writing about. "The way to handle Dora's."

DKoor
07-31-2008, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we? What.are.you.talking.about.

Tempest + P-51D5NT + P-5120NA = 19 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

FW-190D9 = 17 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

That is kinda self-explanatory, but only if you want to read.

ps. we don't know how many of those Tempest and P-51 'kills' are ground targets because both aircraft are able to carry the bombs, and Tempest even rockets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif , if you want it to put that way, and we can be fairly positive that none or very small amount of ground targets are ever attacked by FW-190D's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read English fine, thank you. You post WC stats showing Target scores of a couple of different planes that mean zero in terms of the original posters comments.

P-51's shoot down 190's and 109's for the most part. Check with any 51 pilot and ask him the ratio between 109's/190 kills and bomber/fighter bomber kills. No 51 pilot specializes in killing JU-88's and ME-110's. Frankly, it's too risky, due to your water-cooled engine.

I know MY kills in a Mustang, overwhelmingly, come from 190's and 109's. Mostly 190's, as not many guys fly the 109 on WC regularly. Out of the 190's I would guess about half are Dora's. Maybe less.

Dora's (with a 2x 20mm) shoot down 51's/47's/38's/Spit's/Tempest's/Havoc's/B-25's/occaisionally Mosquito.

So your silly cut and paste of WC stats means nothing in terms of what the original poster was writing about. "The way to handle Dora's." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't mean zero, what it does mean is that a FW-190D in game is much more of the killer machine than the P-51 is.

Anyway...

How many of your P-51D kills then comes from dogfight and not bouncing?

How many of those 109s and 190s you actually outmaneuvered in close quarter combat?

Tell that to the original poster because his question was;


Is there a point in trying to dogfight these things? Is there something lacking in it's performance envelope I'm not recognizing? The only kills I tend to get on these things is when they don't see me diving on them from above, or when one of them decides to get in a turn-fight when I'm in a Spit (not something I can control).

FatCat_99
07-31-2008, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we? What.are.you.talking.about.

Tempest + P-51D5NT + P-5120NA = 19 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

FW-190D9 = 17 pilots with TARGET/sortie over 1.

That is kinda self-explanatory, but only if you want to read.

ps. we don't know how many of those Tempest and P-51 'kills' are ground targets because both aircraft are able to carry the bombs, and Tempest even rockets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif , if you want it to put that way, and we can be fairly positive that none or very small amount of ground targets are ever attacked by FW-190D's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should had seen those same stats before reset, some people left(Lixma, Schlum, FatBoy etc.), some people don't fly as often as before(like me) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words Blue pilots are better than Red pilots and that's why Dora stats are better than P-51 stats. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One thing is interesting in stats DKoor showed. One name is on most of the list. It's JG27HotSauce. Look at his stats.
P51D20 1,11 T/S
Tempest 1,17 T/S
Dora 1,12 T/S

Same pilot, different planes almost identical stats, go figure.

FC

Xiolablu3
07-31-2008, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
P-51D is excellent aircraft, however FW-190D is modeled in IL2 so it has serious advantages over P-51D while P-51D doesn't have serious advantages over FW-190D. Mustang III is another story, being generally better than 190D, but plain P-51D is not really a match for FW-190 in a fair fight, equal 1 vs 1.
Truth to be told if you like to mess up, twitching and turning and stuff, you'll probably lose most fights vs FW-190A9 etc.

LOL dude you need some serious education, the above has about 0,00% of similarity with real situation drop me a note on HL if you see me, I'm tired of explaining things with words here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>OK no prob.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with Dkoor, the Dora holds all the cards IMO.

With equal pilots in each, the ingame Dora does everything as well or better than the ingame P51D IMHO.

It takes a really good pilot to do well 1 vs 1 in the P51 vs a decent 190 flyer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but you're very wrong about this I'm afraid. The two planes are very similar with the Mustang holding some significant advantages.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the Dora. It's a wondeful plane with great firepower (the great equalizer). I give the edge to a Mustang in a close fight though.

As to the disparity of the WC stats between Mustang and Dora, we don't know how many kills of the top 4-5 Dora pilots (all exceptional pilots BTW) were Mustangs, now do we? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No probs mate! Thats what we are hear for, to discuss this stuff and chew the cud, I am actually glad if I am wrong and there are skilfull pilots out there who feel the P51 can take on the Dora on more than equal terms.

I guess I just need more practice, or maybe my style of flying just suits the Fw190D9 and Tempest better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I DO still think that an average pilot will do better in the Dora than the P51D however.

JtD
07-31-2008, 01:16 PM
UKD1 stats say the D-9 is the better plane.

Xiolablu3
07-31-2008, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
UKD1 stats say the D-9 is the better plane.

The problem I would have with UKded1 is that it has the big arrows pointing to the enemys which are off the screen.

Therefore what happens a LOT in the first merge of two planes, is that people just turn hard towards the nearest arrow and fly at each other head on blazing away, the Fw190D9's cannons would win this in 9/10 situations.

Do you have stats for UK2 or UK3 mate? I would think they would be more representative.

I understand everyone likes different settings, and I can forgive anyone whatever settings they like, icons/externals/padlock/wonderwoman etc etc however those big arrows which point to the enemies off screen, really ruin all the realism factor for me, and therefore I could not take a result seriously for which plane is 'better' from that sort of game. Just MHO.

Brain32
07-31-2008, 02:11 PM
Yeah I agree, I mean last time I joined a fuller no-cockpit server I took FW190A9(only one in the air at the point! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif) and well all you see is a giant gunsight infront of you! I made 7 kills in less than 5mins, so I decided it's not fair and left...

JtD
08-01-2008, 07:09 AM
It's probably a fairer comparison between planes than a full switch server, where circumstances are more important. I can bounce anything with anything, but I can't win every dogfight.

I'm not the person to frequently go into head ons and I still get better results with the D-9. Not in kills per sortie, but in kills per time.

Bewolf
08-01-2008, 07:37 AM
P-51 is one of the best planes in game. I've flown it offline and online on servers the likes of Spits vs. 109s and Zekes vs. Wildcats. WC is not my turf, same planesets all the time, boredom heaven.

Anyways, from all the planes i've flown in this sim, the Pony holds energy the best by a fair margin. If you stick to this advantage there is nothing that can match you, not even a D9. The Pony must be one of the most underestimated and undervalued planes in this Sim. And this comes from someone that made the D9 his most favorite ride. The whole trick is to keep the speed up. Slashing passes with immidiate withdrawl Hartman style. Do not stick with the enemy, as was said here before, even if it appears the enemy plane is not damaged. Most often you get the kill message much later.

If you get used to these delayed kills instead of wanting a clear descision "now", then your chances to get right up to the top are high.

Most ppl simply don't treat the 51 the way it has to be treated. Dedicated 190 and 47 drivers appear to have a huge advantage in that.