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View Full Version : Is a Joystick worth it?



XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:01 PM
I used to play a lot of air combat games a long long time ago. I bought this game after reading all the reviews about MS air combat 3 and Il2-Sturmovic.

I'm looking to play online with friends. I'm just starting to learn the game.

Is lets say the Saitek X45 worth getting or will I be able to successfully have a fun expierence with the keyboard?


Should I learn first with the keyboard/mouse or go right into a game controller?

Thanks SMS

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:01 PM
I used to play a lot of air combat games a long long time ago. I bought this game after reading all the reviews about MS air combat 3 and Il2-Sturmovic.

I'm looking to play online with friends. I'm just starting to learn the game.

Is lets say the Saitek X45 worth getting or will I be able to successfully have a fun expierence with the keyboard?


Should I learn first with the keyboard/mouse or go right into a game controller?

Thanks SMS

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:04 PM
X-45 is good.

Keyboard/joystick not.

Have fun.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:04 PM
You must be kidding!

Get a stick! Now! Yesterday!

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Zayets
06-18-2003, 09:07 PM
sms380 wrote:

- Is lets say the Saitek X45 worth getting or will I
- be able to successfully have a fun expierence with
- the keyboard?

Sure!I fly only with the keyboard!



Seriously now , you must be kiddin' about the keyboard...



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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:08 PM
Joystick good.

Peaches good.

Keyboard sucks.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:09 PM
Nah, they're way over-rated IMHO. Now, where did you say you fly online......./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
rad

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:10 PM
A stick is the only way to fly. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I have one of these;

http://www.logitech.com/lang/images/0/911.gif

Logitech Freedom 2.4 Ghz Cordless
* 10 buttons (18 commands when one button is assigned as a shift)
* Smooth heavy metal throttle design
* Twisty handle for rudder control
* Cordless
* $60.00-70.00 U.S.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:12 PM
What they are trying to tell you is:

The game should not be played without a joystick. Attempting to play with out one would be frustrating and nearly impossible.

And once you get a joystick you can map the joystick to a slider and then watch out!

Don't woryy about that last line and go buy a stick


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Miss A. R.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:29 PM
just today I got the X45 joystick, I have been playing the game using the keyboard for 3 months, to tell you the truth, i feel weird? but seems more fun using the joystick

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:30 PM
galingula wrote:
- The game should not be played without a joystick.
- Attempting to play with out one would be frustrating
- and nearly impossible.


I actually got a couple of kills with my keyboard when my Logitech batteries died in mid-flight. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
(I wonder if I can join the proud birds now? *evil stares fill the room* I'm just kidding)
It didn't feel like I was really flying when using the keyboard.

Note: the Logitech comes with a battery low warning light, so don't worry. I wanted to see how long the warning lasted.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:09 PM
This is how important a stick is: If you said you had not bought the game yet and you couldn't afford to buy both the game and the stick, then I would tell you to buy the stick and download the free Il-2 demo and play that.

Seriously. You would have much more fun flying off the demo with a good stick than trying to use the full game with the keyboard. That is how much difference it makes.

Personally I use the MS Sidewinder, without FFB because it doesn't work with XP, but I believe the Saitek you mention is supposed to be a very good one too. But _any_ stick, even a cheap one from the discount store, will be much, much better than using the keyboard.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:13 PM
Mulla_Stondaa wrote:
- But _any_ stick, even a cheap one from the
- discount store, will be much, much better than using
- the keyboard.


I'd make sure it has some type of rudder control.



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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:13 PM
Reasons to get a joystick:

1) Control of the aircraft becomes smoother and more intuitive than tapping up/down/right/left keys.

2) Some joysticks come with a throttle slider; using this is much easier than than reaching across the keyboard and pounding a throttle pre-set.

3) Some joysticks come with an 8-way POV HAT switch. This allows you to look around the cockpit with your thumb while flying instead of using one hand on the Num Pad keys.

4) Multiple fire buttons put your basic 'heat of the moment' keys all in the same place. I mapped one of my fire buttons as a WEP / boost button. Much better than remembering keyboard assignments and shortcuts! In FB, additional buttons can be assigned tasks like flaps up or down, landing gear up or down, or mapped to view presets.

5) Three-axis joysticks (IE: rudder sticks or 'twisty sticks') allow you to easily add rudder input while flying. This influences basic flight control and is often important to execute more complex aerial manouvers.

6) Some joysticks have trim sliders. This allows you to 'calibrate' your plane to fly level at a given altitude.

7) Force Feedback. This is a function usually associated with the most expensive joysticks; the joystick moves or vibrates in response to cues from the game.

I use a Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Pro 2 (I think that's the name) and have been pleased with it. There are cheaper sticks with less functions, but there are also much more expensive sticks. I got my Sidewinder at Wal*Mart and I think it was just under $40.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:23 PM
Mulla_Stondaa wrote:
- Personally I use the MS Sidewinder, without FFB
- because it doesn't work with XP, but I believe the
- Saitek you mention is supposed to be a very good one
- too. But _any_ stick, even a cheap one from the
- discount store, will be much, much better than using
- the keyboard.


I beg to differ with you Mulla.... I use a MSFFB stick and it works just fine in XP. I also use a SaitekX45 which also works fine in FB along with the MS stixk and some CH pedals....
sms380......get a stick..if $$$ is a problem then you can get a refurbished Saitek X45 for $39 here.. http://store.yahoo.com/saitekusa/recprod.html
The stick is fantastic...very pogrammable at that price very affordable. I hear they are on back order..... if so and you cant waith look in the paper for a sale. Whatever you do get a stick with a twist rudder at the very least. If you cant wait to get the refurbed Saitek and you decide to go retail then do not I repeat DO NOT spend less than $30 for a stick..if you do you will only wind up buying another one in a few months either because the one you bought broke or you got tired of it's limitiations. The Microsoft Force Feedback 2 is an excellent stick. Works well in 98, ME, 2000 or XP. You can get one a t Best Buy right now for $79.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:28 PM
X-45 is good, and pretty cheap for a HOTAS. Keyboard? I never tried flying IL2 with a keyboard! So I don't know, but I guess it's almost useless. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:35 PM
Think of it this way...your stick is the connection between you and the plane....you dont want to skimp but so much there. You can have a red hot system, nice monitor, sound, video...but if your stick is crap....fuggheddaboudit... on the otherhand if your system is average and you have a decent stick you will get hour and hours on end of enjoyment from FB.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:39 PM
( to be honest, I bought my first joystick a day after I bought IL2 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I have six now, been trying out a bit /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:42 PM
I think a joystick is one of the minimum system requirements for any flight sim. I guess it is technically possible to play without one, but it is also technically possible to play without your monitor plugged in. I'm not joking, if you don't have a joystick of some sort then buying any flight sim is a waste of money. I use an X-45. It is the best stick you can get for less than $100 and lasts pretty good too.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:55 PM
Mulla_Stondaa wrote:
- This is how important a stick is: If you said you
- had not bought the game yet and you couldn't afford
- to buy both the game and the stick, then I would
- tell you to buy the stick and download the free Il-2
- demo and play that.
-
- Seriously. You would have much more fun flying off
- the demo with a good stick than trying to use the
- full game with the keyboard. That is how much
- difference it makes.
-
- Personally I use the MS Sidewinder, without FFB
- because it doesn't work with XP, but I believe the
- Saitek you mention is supposed to be a very good one
- too. But _any_ stick, even a cheap one from the
- discount store, will be much, much better than using
- the keyboard.

The man has spouted forth wisdom. Without it it's like walking with out legs.

If you like the game on a keyboard, attaching a joystick will improve the game beyond your wildest dreams


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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:10 PM
Years ago I played A-10 attack with a keyboard, and when I got my first stick a Saitek Cyborg 3d it was "weird" at first, but soon wondered how I flew without it.

Now I'm on my second HOTAS system.

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 10:18 AM
Yes it is worth it just dont buy the logitech wingman its crappy iv'e broke mine on a half year/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif i am going to buy a new one, just need the cash/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 10:20 AM
I have a Logitech Wingman Force 3D and am very satisfied, had for about a year or so.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 11:46 AM
I play with KEYBOARD only no joystick and i'm having fun with FB....believe me it's a great game even without joystick. Never play online though. In QMB i can still down an AI ace with keyboard only.


However i think i'm gonna buy one soon. This game worth for a joystick. Have fun.

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michapma
06-19-2003, 11:52 AM
I tried flying the demo once at work with keyboard only and well ... no.


If I didn't have to work (sort of like today) I'd rig myself up an instrument panel and use the keyboard for nothing but naming track files. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

Don't kid yourself, get a good joystick.

Next stop, addiction. Other major stops, rudder pedals, TrackIR. End station: Matrox Parahelia, like Dex. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

Mike

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

fluke39
06-19-2003, 12:00 PM
I flew for about a year without a joystick, and got quite proficient. When i got a joystick (my dear brother bought me one for christmas) as someone mentioned above it was weird at first but after youv'e adjusted it is so much better- you can probably get good with just key board and have a load of fun - but you'll never get as good as you would with a joystick.


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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 12:11 PM
I have never used a stick, and i got somewhere around 240 kills in my fighter-campaign though.. (nearly fulll real)
I really cant imagine how its to use a stick.. it must be wierd to sit there and throw yourself over that peg, waving the thing around when sitting there alone infront of the comp. Sure you can aim better witha stick but when it comes to DF its better i believe... you have faster reaction time with the keyboard, as just pressing one button you have full roll/dive etc, and you can use the mouse to look around, excactly seeing what you want to see instead of using the buttons. I^ve flewn with kleyboard for over ayear now and its been some kills with it.. think the four keys I use to control the plane is getting tired out though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 01:48 PM
Hi

X45 is good but try to find X36 usb. X36 is better (imho).

Br

XJazz

michapma
06-19-2003, 01:54 PM
broder_balle,

I would LOVE to see a couple of tracks with you flying dogfights with the keyboard. I'm just curious.

chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch

Regards,
Mike

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 02:26 PM
sure, but i dont know how to send the track to you after recording it.. and where does it end up after recording? (in the FB directories offcourse but where there) what kind of file is it?

oh mail.. didnt see that one! but some more wuestions have to be answered afterall. Ill have a caffe and maybe i record some fighter campaign mission for you today /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Message Edited on 06/19/0301:32PM by broder_balle

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 02:31 PM
A joystick is a MUST!

I use the MSFT ForceFeedback 2 stick, cheap on Ebay and other auction sites. You might just nose around and get one at an unbelievable low price (cheap).

The X-45 is good, but it is a spring return non-forcefeedback stick. The forcefeedback adds alot to the feel of flying...IMO /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You really don't need a separate throttle, rudder arrangement with WW2 combat flight sims. You need it with Jet sims for sure.

------------------ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 02:32 PM
the purists won't agree but i use a thrustmaster-firestorm II joypad,it has two joysticks(aelerons/elevators)(rudder)a hat switch and ten buttons,the force feedback does'nt seem to work beyond resistance since i connected my scanner,oh and i'm allso comfortable using it in Nascar03 as well..i feel the only thing i would add is a throttle on a slider.




<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

michapma
06-19-2003, 02:58 PM
The simplest answer is after you are finished flying and hit Esc and then click on "Quit Mission", look for the button "Record Track". Click on it, and give the track a useful name. (It may take the computer several minutes, depending on how much you changed views and how long you flew. The mouse will not respond, but your computer is NOT locked up, just very busy, so be patient.) When it is finished it will return mouse control and you can click on "Done".

Once you are out of FB (or IL-2) you can go to the root folder and look for the subfolder Records. You will find a file with the name you gave it and the extension .trk. If you know how, Zip that file and email it to me. If you don't know how to Zip, just send it as it is, but it will be considerably larger than the zipped version if you have a slow email connection.

You can also record online tracks with the extension .ntrk, which work somewhat differently. Consult your FB manual for details.

Sorry so dry, I need a drink. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif
Mike

&lt;script>c2="#99ae6a";c3="#556b2f";c4="#515e2f";c5="#3e463b";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=c2;a[a.length-3].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-5].bgColor=c5;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;image="http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/userbar1.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat"; var CobraAvatar='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img"); for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=CobraAvatar;a=document.all.tags["td"); for[i=0;i<a.length;i++) if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["michapma")!=-1)ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Yefreytor SKULLS_Chap";</script>

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 03:44 PM
just sent a mail. Im not sure if it worked as i couldnt zip it but i think it went good. Are you sure this is the right mail adress btw "chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch"? sound a little wierd http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif if you got the mail reply by mail and tell how it went, and ill send the another track. If not, just reply here and ill try some more

michapma
06-19-2003, 04:17 PM
Got it and replied. Thanks.

&lt;script>c2="#99ae6a";c3="#556b2f";c4="#515e2f";c5="#3e463b";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=c2;a[a.length-3].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-5].bgColor=c5;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;image="http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/userbar1.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat"; var CobraAvatar='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img"); for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=CobraAvatar;a=document.all.tags["td"); for[i=0;i<a.length;i++) if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["michapma")!=-1)ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Yefreytor SKULLS_Chap";</script>

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>