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BillSwagger
05-12-2010, 02:40 AM
Just wondering if bullets go where the tracers do not.

I've shot at water and seen more splashes than tracers shot from the gun but in most respects the bullets still follow the tracers.

Does anyone know if lag causes bullets to hit where tracer fire isn't present?

I'm observing this more and more, and it seems like i get hit by bullets even though i'm well ahead of tracer fire, and in some cases not even in the gun path of the enemy.

I just figured it had to be lag or something, but its becoming a more recurring nuisance despite my low and stable pings. I just wondered what else could be causing this.

thanks

Bill

Erkki_M
05-12-2010, 03:15 AM
Yep.

Different types of ammo have different ballistics, and this is modelled in the game. For example the APIT round the MG151/20 fires(every 5th shot is one) has muzzle speed of 720m/s if I dont remember wrong, the HE round has around 800m/s and MG has 850+ m/s.

Unlike in most other games, in il2, you see hits like they are in YOUR game, in both ground, ground targets as well as other aircraft. You dont need to take pings into account, nor do you need to hit in the "server's game".

Why you get hit by "non-hitting" bursts is partially because the tracers are usually slower than lighter HE rounds, but more because thanks to latency you are actually getting hit - in the shooting player's game. The smaller pings the less of this will you notice.

na85
05-12-2010, 03:19 AM
Yep, IL2 places a lot of trust in the client:

Client 1 says "I'm shooting, and I hit you here here and here"

Client 2 essentially says "Okay, I take your word for it. Running damage functions"

Etc.

I imagine this was done to offload as much work from the server as possible.

TinyTim
05-12-2010, 04:14 AM
The only machinegun that has different ballistics for different types of bullets in IL-2 is Mg 131 (and of course also Ho 103 which is its exact copy - bar the tracer appearance).

Other than that - some heavy machineguns have different "lifetime" of bullets, so what it might have happened is that you hit the "window" where tracers already died on their way to the obstacle, but the rest of the bullets didn't.

BillSwagger
05-12-2010, 04:30 AM
I'm just trying to figure out what i'm looking at. I see a guy who flies past me in a head on and then i'm hit by his bullets dispite never seeing him shoot. Its like i'm getting hit from his 1-2 o'clock as i pass.
I recorded some Ntrks too, and upon looking at those, the bullet paths are actually seen as misses, yet in the game they were scored as hits.
Like i said, this was something that rarely occurred, but lately it seems like it happens every sortie. I'm just trying to see if its a connection issue. I know that hypperlobby was just updated. Has anyone else experienced this?

The other odd thing is sometimes when i'm near bombers, i'll see tracer fire so i'll traverse around it, but then sometimes i get a screen freeze and when it comes back my engine is out and my player is half dead. Many times with out ever seeing tracers. In fact, sometimes there are tracers but they are shooting at other planes, yet i still get hit by shots that supposedly came from the bomber, but again, no tracers are seen.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

danjama
05-12-2010, 05:35 AM
It won't be a Hyperlobby issue. All that hyperlobby does is offer easy access to seervers. Once you're connected, it's all about the fidelity of the connection between your computer and the server/host. Check your pings. If it's too high (over 140), maybe fly on a server where you get a better ping.

Also, do you use a wireless connection? Are you downloading anything while playing?

It sounds like you are experiencing general warping.

This will also happen when your ping is fine, but the person on your 6 or on your 12 has a high ping. It will seem like they're not even there, but they are. Because they are the ones who are warping.

Choctaw111
05-12-2010, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
The only machinegun that has different ballistics for different types of bullets in IL-2 is Mg 131 (and of course also Ho 103 which is its exact copy - bar the tracer appearance).

Other than that - some heavy machineguns have different "lifetime" of bullets, so what it might have happened is that you hit the "window" where tracers already died on their way to the obstacle, but the rest of the bullets didn't.

There are several more that are modeled with this feature.
I don't have a list, but I have tested the ballistics and trajectories (of all the guns) extensively over the years.
I even posted a Youtube movie showing this a few years ago. The movie in question was showing the Bk3.7 I believe.
It clearly shows the different speeds and trajectories of the different bullets in the same belt.

BillSwagger
05-12-2010, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
It sounds like you are experiencing general warping.


This was my thinking too. My ping is generally between 40-70, and seldom ever exceeds 100 on any of the servers i play on.
I think this issue came up before, if not with this game, it was of a similar discussion along the lines of how gaming usually favors the higher pings, simply because the server updates the positions of the lower pings more rapidly and so the higher pings can sometimes score misses when hits should be seen. To see it the other way around seems strange to me, and i never thought it could make such a noticeable difference, other than maybe missing 2 or 3 extra bullets out of 50. On a couple Ntrks my plane is clearly a whole plane length ahead of the shot. Part of me wonders how much of this is constituted from warping and the fact that when you play a track back its not always spot on from the timing you recorded it in. You ever notice how things shift around on play back? Like i said, some of my ntrks show clear misses when in game they were hits.
This is an old problem it just seems like its become more common place all of a sudden, so i'm trying to rule out possibilities. There is nothing immediately apparent that has changed on my end other than the new updates with HL. If nobody else is having these issues then I couldn't rule out that it is something on my end, it's just that this has been going on for a couple weeks, it seems, so being that i've recorded it i thought i would ask around to see what else it could be.


Bill

FatCat_99
05-12-2010, 07:31 AM
This is written for Warbirds but it is mostly valid for Il2 too.
http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm

Every player should know that.

FC

TheGrunch
05-13-2010, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
There are several more that are modeled with this feature.
I think TinyTim is talking exclusively about machine guns.

JtD
05-13-2010, 12:56 AM
It's lag related, see FC's link. Tracks also differ from what really happened in game at the time.

K_Freddie
05-13-2010, 06:43 AM
Besides the lag issue.. there was an interesting comment from Stiegler about how the LW pilots did not 'generally' use tracers for aiming as the trajectory was lower than non-tracer shells.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

rnzoli
05-13-2010, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I recorded some Ntrks too, and upon looking at those, the bullet paths are actually seen as misses, yet in the game they were scored as hits. Playback of NTRK is already "ironed out", i.e., smoothened, so it doesn't show what really happened. Moreover, the lagging of your human opponent may cause the problem also, despite your good ping.

I did a simple test some time ago on 2 PCs. There were playing a co-op.
One aircraft was directly behind the other.

The mission started well on both PCs, #1 was first a/c, #2 was second within 100-200 meters.
I disconnected the network cable of PC #2.

Then I pulled up with the plane on #1.
#2 was still seeing #1 in steady flight ahead of him, because during packet drop/out, the game estimates a linear motion until next position update.

Then I shot from #1 at #2 and damaged it. To not much effect at all. I stopped shooting and just flew on.

Then I plugged back the network cable to #2, and suddenly everything caught up and registered. On #1 PC, the #1 a/c took all the hits at once and stated to leak fuel. At the same time, #2 showed also that #1 warped to a new position and immediately started leaking fuel.

I guess this also explains why the data traffic is encrypted in the stock game.