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View Full Version : Messerschmitt 262 online - revisited



Hristo_
02-01-2006, 01:03 PM
With inclusion of planes in our latest add-on, I'd like to remind the community on the plane regularly forgotten on most online servers - the Me 262.

While it was indeed too dominant with current planeset, I wasn't really interested in flying it too, except to try it out here and there.

Now that we have almost full planeset of both Allied and Axis late war planes (with notable exception of Spitfire XIV), maybe it is time to rethink the Me 262 online status ?

I believe it is not necessary to remind people that Me 262 is a 1944 plane which flew in numbers and that it shot down planes while also getting shot down itself. It definitely isn't a fantasy/prototype plane like Do 335, Bi 1 or MiG3U. Yet, it shares the same status as Go.229 or P-80 online - it is banned from most servers, even late war.

It may be easy to survive in but definitely not easy to kill in - so not everyone will fly it.

Thoughts ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

waffen-79
02-01-2006, 01:16 PM
Agree 110%

I mean, there's the P-47M, P-38L Late, and the P-51/Mustang Series, Spitfire Mk.IX. ALL OF THEM if flown PROPERLY can shot down the 262,162 and the 229 EASILY, Hell don't even get me started with the Yak-3P '45 and La-7 3xB20.

It's a shame they're only used Offline and in Coops.

And don't bring the REALISM issue because even on WC it's played with ikons and 3 lives. if realism is a must, there should be only a few slots available for blue side and only 1 live LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And Oleg if you're reading this, stop by for the DF servers and see 'US' flying the Bombers with externals, please have pitty of us and release a generic cockpit for the big bombers. heck even WW view will do

regards

ploughman
02-01-2006, 01:26 PM
Sounds reasonable.

BirdieNum-nums
02-01-2006, 01:49 PM
Gee whiz, I almost started a thread on this subject yesterday. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The blatant and ridiculous omission of the Me262 in the online DF servers is just silly, really. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

What are people really afraid of?? A few 262s here and there... ooooh no!! run for your lives!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I mean, it's not as if they would be the all dominant uberness supreme. We have tons of LAs, Yaks Ponies, Spits, (excuse me if I haven't mentioned your prize ride of choice) that can very competently make mince meat out of the 262, so what's the big deal?? Huh?? Hmmm? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Server administrators: please allow the 262 into your servers, I think you'll be pleased and surprised (in a positive way) if you do. C'mon, it was part of the war anyway!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers,

Birdie Num-Nums a.k.a. The Jabberwocky

P.S. Personally, I suck hard with the 262 but it sure is fun trying to chase one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BirdieNum-nums
02-01-2006, 01:54 PM
One last thing...

We all know that the Me262 is a big fat turkey during takeoff, and during landing.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gifand if that's not a decisive handicapp that should further justify the valid argument of allowing its inclusion online, then I really don't know what is... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Birdie Num-Nums a.k.a. The Jabberwocky

Diablo310th
02-01-2006, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
Agree 110%

I mean, there's the P-47M, P-38L Late, and the P-51/Mustang Series, Spitfire Mk.IX. ALL OF THEM if flown PROPERLY can shot down the 262,162 and the 229 EASILY, Hell don't even get me started with the Yak-3P '45 and La-7 3xB20.

It's a shame they're only used Offline and in Coops.

And don't bring the REALISM issue because even on WC it's played with ikons and 3 lives. if realism is a must, there should be only a few slots available for blue side and only 1 live LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And Oleg if you're reading this, stop by for the DF servers and see 'US' flying the Bombers with externals, please have pitty of us and release a generic cockpit for the big bombers. heck even WW view will do

regards

we don't ahve a P-47M jsut a 150 octane D27. But myself personally I don't mind the 262. Just limit the numbers.

SlickStick
02-01-2006, 02:01 PM
With no way to limit it's use or truly having a prop plane that can catch it unless the 262 driver makes a mistake, I think it would be abused on servers.

True, it's slow take-off and landing make it an easy target and I'd expect to be historically accurate, a few would have to be flying those red-painted bottom FW 190s to protect them, lol.

Jets are a blast, but flown correctly, not a prop plane in the game would get a shot at it.

The Me262 would be a great, fast bomber (2-250kg), but currently deflection shooting in that plane is a bit of a bear.

For me, I fly with or against anything, as it's the man not the machine, but without having a way to limit their use online, I expect them to be over-used. Just my .02βΆ.

stathem
02-01-2006, 02:14 PM
Not whilst it's overmodelled wrt it's complete lack of a high AoA compressor stall.

Tooz_69GIAP
02-01-2006, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
With no way to limit it's use

I don't understand why people think you can't limit the use of aircraft in a dogfight server. Go fly ADW war, or try out a Forgotten Skies dogfight mission. In both of these, there are restrictions on what can and cannot be flown, and both use a dogfight format.

In ADW you register with a squad, and that squad's commander has chosed a specific plane type to fly. If you log on to the server and try to fly something else, then you get kicked.

In Forgotten Skies, you can fly whatever you want, but there are only allowed a certain amount of that type of aircraft in the air at one time. If you try to fly an aircraft that already has it's full quota in the air, you get kicked.

I have on occasion flown in servers on HL which have had some kind of similar restricting feature to limit what typ eof aircraft can be flown at one time, but tit has admittedly been a very rare occurance.

But it surely isn't that hard to try and implement some kind of scripting to make this happen!

SlickStick
02-01-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
With no way to limit it's use

I don't understand why people think you can't limit the use of aircraft in a dogfight server. Go fly ADW war, or try out a Forgotten Skies dogfight mission. In both of these, there are restrictions on what can and cannot be flown, and both use a dogfight format.

In ADW you register with a squad, and that squad's commander has chosed a specific plane type to fly. If you log on to the server and try to fly something else, then you get kicked.

In Forgotten Skies, you can fly whatever you want, but there are only allowed a certain amount of that type of aircraft in the air at one time. If you try to fly an aircraft that already has it's full quota in the air, you get kicked.

I have on occasion flown in servers on HL which have had some kind of similar restricting feature to limit what typ eof aircraft can be flown at one time, but tit has admittedly been a very rare occurance.

But it surely isn't that hard to try and implement some kind of scripting to make this happen! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me clarify, there is no way to control it with FMB and the number of planes that can spawn at a particular base. What you are stating has to be monitored by an individual or admin, no?

I've yet to see a server running a script that controlled what planes were in the air, but I won't say it can't be done. It's just not a readily-available option from within the FMB, for those of us who just want to run a DF map with no script.

Willey
02-01-2006, 03:32 PM
You can always let them TO with a greater distance to the front. Many players want quick action, and if they can choose to fly 10km in a K-4 or 50km in a 262, they'll always take the prop.

Tooz_69GIAP
02-01-2006, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
Let me clarify, there is no way to control it with FMB and the number of planes that can spawn at a particular base. What you are stating has to be monitored by an individual or admin, no?

I've yet to see a server running a script that controlled what planes were in the air, but I won't say it can't be done. It's just not a readily-available option from within the FMB, for those of us who just want to run a DF map with no script.

Read my post again.

No, it is all automated, there is no admin watching things. It is a scripting tool that is used to monitor what's going on. If you pick an aircraft that you can't fly because too many are flying already, you get a warning. If you take off, you get kicked.

Fair enough, you don't want to run a scripting tool, but if you want to run a server that restricts the palnesets, then it would benefit you to take a look at the different options.

Go to www.forgottenskies.com (http://www.forgottenskies.com) and check out the setup, or to www.adwwar.com (http://www.adwwar.com).

Aviar
02-01-2006, 03:54 PM
I'm all for the 262, but there are those that hate it. For inclusion in a DF room, try something like this:

Simulate the weakness of the 262...takeoffs and landings. Place very few or maybe even no AAA at their base(s). This will force BLUE to CAP their base (which is historically correct) or lose their 262's.

Restrict access to other landing bases for the 262. This way, they must land on bases with no AAA help and RED knows where they must land. How to restrict other bases? Some ideas:

-Place a large object(s) on all possible runways. Heck, even one large hangar placed in the middle of the runway will stop a 262 from landing there.

-Place a couple of strong RED AA units on the airfield. Adjust the Hold Fire setting so the AA only opens up on planes landing. The 262's will be dead before they can come to a stop.

-A combination of the above two ideas will almost surely prevent a 262 from landing at that base.

Remember, we are not trying to penalize the 262, but simply trying to simulate it's historic weaknesses.

Aviar

HeinzBar
02-01-2006, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
With no way to limit it's use

S!,
Not entirely true Stick. Warclouds currently runs four maps in which the me262 (a1 and a2) is limited to a maximum of 4 planes at particular bases. This isn't done by scripting by the way.

The me262 isn't available on every map. Warclouds currently has 90+ maps in the map cycle. So, if you wish to fly the me262, you may have to wait awhile. However, it is included for all to enjoy if you're the first ones to spawn from particular bases.

HB

waffen-79
02-01-2006, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
With no way to limit it's use

I know the vast majority fly on full real servers (i.e. WC, Corbina, etc) me included, but my system is not high end, and sometimes my lives get depleted pretty fast.

So I go to the DF servers like AFJ or 334th and no one there seems to care to limit the use of La-7 3xB20 or Yak-3P'45.

Pay Addons or Free Addons with BoB in the making there's little life/development to this sim, so the smart move to make is make available(with theather/historical restrictions) all the planes we got. (i.e if it's northern germany put some 262s if its northern Afrika don't)

Grey_Mouser67
02-01-2006, 05:17 PM
The 262 aught to be in some maps online...absolutely....but don't mistake the P-47D for an M...it in no way resembles that aircraft.

In order to create added realism, the blue base with the 262 aught to be right at the front lines between the main red base and the red objectives...with the second blue base quite far away.

This will create the affect of having most red fighters fly over the blue base in order to vulch landing and taking off 262's!

In all seriousness though, 262 is online...just not on Warclouds....so are you requesting 262 to be on Warclouds? It aught to be there on some maps....Another nice feature would be to airstart the P-47M at 44,000 ft...that was its real service ceiling which is higher than the Me262's so we could even the odds a little bit...I still think the 262 would have the advantage. I fly it online from time to time when the right map comes up on the right server and I don't think I've been shot down and killed in it yet...got some holes, start the engines on fire by accident once in awhile but man is that thing fast! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

SlickStick
02-01-2006, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
With no way to limit it's use

S!,
Not entirely true Stick. Warclouds currently runs four maps in which the me262 (a1 and a2) is limited to a maximum of 4 planes at particular bases. This isn't done by scripting by the way.

The me262 isn't available on every map. Warclouds currently has 90+ maps in the map cycle. So, if you wish to fly the me262, you may have to wait awhile. However, it is included for all to enjoy if you're the first ones to spawn from particular bases.

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, don't leave me hanging, unless it's some secret as to how to create a non-scripted map that limits the flyable spawn areas of a particular base. I'd like to use that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'll have to explore Tooz's links a little more as well. I'll have a better 2nd PC soon and I'm thinking about scripting my 1 vs 1 server, so that might come in handy.

xTHRUDx
02-01-2006, 05:43 PM
when you create a home base in the builder, there is an adjustable circle for that base. the smaller the cicrle the less planes can spawn there. the problem is, it's not constant to every base. the smallest cicrle setting on a single strip grass field may only give you 1 player that can spawn there but that same small circle on a larger (concrete, for example) base may give you 4 or 6 players. it needs to be better documented but would require alot of online testers constantly spawning, reseting map, spawning.

for you text editor map guys here is another setting

[BornPlace]
1 9950 20813 72384
1 9950 20732 67571
1 9950 20611 62991
2 3000 4533 12410
2 3000 48464 22697
2 3000 68940 66180
2 3000 85025 40122
2 3000 85121 19030
2 500 84897 19022
2 9950 74829 29189

-the 1st # is the team 1=red, 2=blue
-the 2nd # is the base size, notice the 2nd to last base has a 500 value. at this base, it spawns 4, but that same 500 value on another base may spawn less
-the 3rd and 4th # are the X & Y coordinates on the map where they are located.

i hope this helps

SlickStick
02-01-2006, 05:55 PM
Very neat. Thanks for answering so quickly. I thought it might have to do with editing the mission file, like I do to get AI planes in the maps, but it's good to see it typed out. Thanks to all for further increasing my knowledge. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BTW, that circle also controls AAA range of detecting and shooting at enemy aircraft, too, right?

Capt.LoneRanger
02-01-2006, 05:59 PM
Sounds good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Xiolablu3
02-01-2006, 06:06 PM
I think the Me262 annoys so much because there is NO 2nd chance. If you are hit with one round of his mk108 you are almost definitely going down (and you are usually hit by more than one).

Therefore there are no amazing twisty turny adrenaline rush dogfights with each player scoring a few hits on the other and then retiring to base with damage/leaking fuel... just boom and you are dead. ie there is no room to use your SKILL to get out of the situation, and this can make for a poor game. (everyone likes to have a chance, however small, to use their skill to get out of a tricky situation, when damaged or whatever) With prop planes this is possible as often one hit does not kill your plane right away.

It is sometimes very infuriating, but you could say fighting with any Mk108 equipped plane is like this.

I personally dont mind Me262's as long as its not a whole map of them vs props, just limit the numbers in some way.

Aviar
02-01-2006, 07:57 PM
BTW, that circle also controls AAA range of detecting and shooting at enemy aircraft, too, right?

No. That circle has nothing to do with AAA guns. Each AAA gun has it's own 'Hold Fire' and 'TimeOut' setting.

Aviar

SlickStick
02-01-2006, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Aviar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BTW, that circle also controls AAA range of detecting and shooting at enemy aircraft, too, right?

No. That circle has nothing to do with AAA guns. Each AAA gun has it's own 'Hold Fire' and 'TimeOut' setting.

Aviar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought that the circle set-up the base's area and detection range of AAA. I also thought I proved that when the guns fired sooner with a larger circle and later with a shorter circle around base. Oh well.

Hmmm, damn me for concentrating too much on kicking azz online and not enough about mission building. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Badsight.
02-01-2006, 08:49 PM
i dunno about you guys , but i can land the Me-262 pretty damm fast

Hawgdog
02-01-2006, 09:18 PM
Hell, we fly it online every week- cockpit is fantastic and you dont know what you're missing.
We laugh at those who pay for the whole game and only use half of it.

It does have equals, you know.
I've been shot down more in the 262 by La7 than all other planes combined according to stats.
Just an hour ago:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/majorproblem.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/majorproblem1.jpg

Badsight.
02-01-2006, 09:35 PM
thats a P-80

Viper2005_
02-01-2006, 09:46 PM
For a man with bad sight you certainly don't miss much...

Badsight.
02-01-2006, 09:56 PM
well P-80s are the ultimate killer of 262s , if he does anything but go straight at full power with the ball centered , the P-80 is in

yea La-7s can be hard to shake as well - so speedy under 4K

Hristo_
02-01-2006, 11:04 PM
P-80 won't be of any concern to a Me 262 as long as things are kept historical.

Badsight.
02-01-2006, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
P-80 won't be of any concern to a Me 262 as long as its not in the same DF room. fixed that for ya hristo , just in case your keyboard slipped or sumthing . . . .

Von_Rat
02-01-2006, 11:57 PM
flew 262 last nite on warclouds, it was fun.

having its natural enemy the tempest in game will maybe allow for it to be used more often.

btw the old plane stats at warclouds showed that the 262 got shot down alot, it had somthing like a .5 kd ratio.

unless the jet jockey knows his stuff a 262 is a easy kill.

WTE_Ibis
02-02-2006, 01:11 AM
It was there so it should be in.
I don't like to have to face it but neither did the west in real life.
Duck and cover. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

HellToupee
02-02-2006, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
flew 262 last nite on warclouds, it was fun.

having its natural enemy the tempest in game will maybe allow for it to be used more often.

btw the old plane stats at warclouds showed that the 262 got shot down alot, it had somthing like a .5 kd ratio.

unless the jet jockey knows his stuff a 262 is a easy kill.

thats because of poor pilots. Hell i had some me262 pilots try and turn fight me, but any 262 flown with anyone who has half a brain is essentially untouchable ive never been shotdown by it, it can fly in level flight more than some planes eg spit can dive without breaking up. Essentially the only chance to kill one is hope the pilot sucks.

danjama
02-02-2006, 02:56 AM
id like 262s to be on more servers

their a realsitic feature of the WF so why not

their nice planes

anarchy52
02-02-2006, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think the Me262 annoys so much because there is NO 2nd chance. If you are hit with one round of his mk108 you are almost definitely going down (and you are usually hit by more than one).

I don't know what you're flying, but from my experience, usually there is no second chance with cannon hits.


Therefore there are no amazing twisty turny adrenaline rush dogfights with each player scoring a few hits on the other and then retiring to base with damage/leaking fuel... just boom and you are dead.

Actually I think energy fighting requires much more skill or at least tactics. Manuever combat is a piece of cake if your plane is more manuverable then the oponents. Currently there is almost a solid wall between these two:
reds turn - blues b'n'z . Don't getme wrong I enjoy dogfights, but since I usualy find myself in a plane that is outclassed in manuverability, especially on the eastern front. Few days ago I was forced to dogfight 2 La-7s (3rd gave up) with G14 at 1000m. It was very intense. I almost got one La-7 (missed by inches). It ended in a draw, and all 3 of us landed at our AFs more or less damaged http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



ie there is no room to use your SKILL to get out of the situation, and this can make for a poor game. (everyone likes to have a chance, however small, to use their skill to get out of a tricky situation, when damaged or whatever) With prop planes this is possible as often one hit does not kill your plane right away.

I'd count situation awareness as the most important SKILL you need online. Also it is the only skill you need to keep yourself safe from 262.


It is sometimes very infuriating, but you could say fighting with any Mk108 equipped plane is like this.

agreed

Xiolablu3
02-02-2006, 04:14 AM
Again I cant be bothered to break the post up and answer little bits, I havent got the time, I will just say...

Point 1 : Lots of planes survive 1 Mk108 hit (Spitfires,Yaks,La7), even more 20mm cannon hits, so I am flying all planes.

Point 2 : I am not talking about JUST 'skillz' here I'm talking about fun and actually ENJOYING the game, not flying around for an hour trying to get into a firing position. Having a fantasic TnB dogfight where you are both sweating is great fun.

Me262 is just bang bang bang, you blow up and he zooms off. Usually, in prop planes, you may get hit on the first pass, but unless you get Pked, you have a chance to run. Not so after one pass with 262. 4xm108 firing at once? No chance.


I wasnt even saying that its particualarly bad for me, but I can UNDERSTAND it being annoying for some people. There are a couple of times being killed by a B&Zing Me262 where I have felt that was absolutely no fun at all, why carry on playing....(we all play for fun , right?)

I was even agreeing to using the Me262 on servers, so what s the problem??

Hristo_
02-02-2006, 04:24 AM
One ping kill cuts both ways.

I distinctly remember comments of one Red pilot stating that "262 is the only plane against .50 cals work as they should. One ping - engine on fire."

I try to remember it.

Xiolablu3
02-02-2006, 04:31 AM
Thats a good point http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
02-02-2006, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aviar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BTW, that circle also controls AAA range of detecting and shooting at enemy aircraft, too, right?

No. That circle has nothing to do with AAA guns. Each AAA gun has it's own 'Hold Fire' and 'TimeOut' setting.

Aviar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought that the circle set-up the base's area and detection range of AAA. I also thought I proved that when the guns fired sooner with a larger circle and later with a shorter circle around base. Oh well.

Hmmm, damn me for concentrating too much on kicking azz online and not enough about mission building. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could swear that in the first FB version (1.22) the circle size determined the shooting distance. But those days, the guns didn't have individual ROF, sleep and range properties either, so maybe the circle doesn't affect gun ranges any more... but it did, at one point.

rnzoli
02-02-2006, 05:11 AM
Not so after one pass with 262. 4xm108 firing at once? No chance.
When I let Me-262s onto my DF map, I deliberately selected the 2a (ground attack) version with only 2 30mm guns.

Maybe this is why I managed to escape the attack of one after being hit, flying low and breaking left/right with the correct timing.

SlickStick
02-02-2006, 07:49 AM
Thanks, rnzoli. I'm usually pretty good about remembering something that I've read or done before. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I shall experiment with my All Flyable and AI Props dogfight map and set-up a limited-use jet base on each side. I love learning new things. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

cawimmer430
02-02-2006, 08:33 AM
I think it was Ta-152H's that protected the Me-262's during takeoff and landing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, the great Russian ace Khozedub shot down a Me-262 and he later admitted that this was only possible because the Me-262 pilot tried to outturn him. I've noticed that the Me-262, when used as a "dogfighter", is pure boom and zoom, not turn.

BTW, I might not have the latest patch, but for fun, I tried flying the Me-262 against the A6M2 Zero and the Zero could "keep up with me" like nobody's business...what the ***!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

berg417448
02-02-2006, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I think it was Ta-152H's that protected the Me-262's during takeoff and landing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



It has been posted here before by others with the exact data, but Ta-152 didn't protect the Me-262. It was FW-190D.

If you read combat reports about Me-262s that were shot down in air to air engagements you will see that quite a few were downed after they began to turn. Allied fighters were advised to turn when attacked by Me-262s. In Steinhoff's book you can read about his frustration while flying the Me-262 against a group of Soviet fighters on one mission. They turned better and evaded his attacks time and again.

SlickStick
02-02-2006, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I think it was Ta-152H's that protected the Me-262's during takeoff and landing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, the great Russian ace Khozedub shot down a Me-262 and he later admitted that this was only possible because the Me-262 pilot tried to outturn him. I've noticed that the Me-262, when used as a "dogfighter", is pure boom and zoom, not turn.

BTW, I might not have the latest patch, but for fun, I tried flying the Me-262 against the A6M2 Zero and the Zero could "keep up with me" like nobody's business...what the ***!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I thought I had read that FW190-F8's were assigned to the role of capping Me-262 airbases.

LilHorse
02-02-2006, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Again I cant be bothered to break the post up and answer little bits, I havent got the time, I will just say...

Point 1 : Lots of planes survive 1 Mk108 hit (Spitfires,Yaks,La7), even more 20mm cannon hits, so I am flying all planes.

Point 2 : I am not talking about JUST 'skillz' here I'm talking about fun and actually ENJOYING the game, not flying around for an hour trying to get into a firing position. Having a fantasic TnB dogfight where you are both sweating is great fun.

Me262 is just bang bang bang, you blow up and he zooms off. Usually, in prop planes, you may get hit on the first pass, but unless you get Pked, you have a chance to run. Not so after one pass with 262. 4xm108 firing at once? No chance.


I wasnt even saying that its particualarly bad for me, but I can UNDERSTAND it being annoying for some people. There are a couple of times being killed by a B&Zing Me262 where I have felt that was absolutely no fun at all, why carry on playing....(we all play for fun , right?)

I was even agreeing to using the Me262 on servers, so what s the problem??

Once again this points up another divide. For some the historical/realism accuracy of BnZ (even if you are on the receiving end) is what's fun about the game. If what you want is just a TnB fest then there's no point to having historical accuracy. Just create a server with the best turners with icons and then you've got a barrelfull of your kind of fun.

That said, I think for the sake of historical accuracy it should be allowed, albeit with the some of the limits mentioned above. Hopefully it will cause red to organize coordinated attacks to meet the threat. More historical reaction to it's presence.

anarchy52
02-02-2006, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by LilHorse:
That said, I think for the sake of historical accuracy it should be allowed, albeit with the some of the limits mentioned above. Hopefully it will cause red to organize coordinated attacks to meet the threat. More historical reaction to it's presence.

Fending off a massive vulching raid is the most fun I had on DF server

badatflyski
02-02-2006, 11:58 AM
ta152 protecting 262landing??(ta152= high altitude interceptor,the second fast WW2 airplane...afterthe do335)
190F8 protecting 262 landing? (190F8 is a JABO thus ground attack, to heavy for combat)
herehere (http://home.att.net/%7Ejv44/jv44wurger.htm) will you find info about the planes that protected the 262...but don't forget the 3 miles "Flak-Alley" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SlickStick
02-02-2006, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by badatflyski:
ta152 protecting 262landing??(ta152= high altitude interceptor,the second fast WW2 airplane...afterthe do335)
190F8 protecting 262 landing? (190F8 is a JABO thus ground attack, to heavy for combat)
herehere (http://home.att.net/%7Ejv44/jv44wurger.htm) will you find info about the planes that protected the 262...but don't forget the 3 miles "Flak-Alley" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ah, Doras. Please forgive my LW ignorance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

badatflyski
02-02-2006, 12:03 PM
u're welcome, it always a pleasure to share my little knowledge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

carguy_
02-02-2006, 04:46 PM
Summing up the whole thread.

The Me262 will not become popular because it outpaces any allied plane.We don`t want that.

SlickStick
02-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Summing up the whole thread.

The Me262 will not become popular because it outpaces any allied plane.We don`t want that.

I think as the 262 was really not a factor in the war, it should be implemented that way. As you say there isn't an allied bird to pace it, but not enough late-war Spits for example, have come yet. However, that's not a reason to leave it out.

Just like back in WWII, the game needs to have each side grow in technology, as it historically did. To truly use the Me262 in a historical sense, one has to factor in the allieds response to the appearance of a jet and set-up its use like it was actually used in WWII.

As I stated above, I fly anything and against anything handed to me. I just know though, without control, the skies will be filled with 262s and Hosts of historic servers know this.

Bring'em on any server I fly on though! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jimDG
02-02-2006, 06:02 PM
the only map that can be acceptabe for jets is one where p-51s and p-47s get an air start at 10000m (with b-25 bombers) 2 squares away from the me262 base.

jets v/s jets maps are next to pointless - shooting distances end up being 600-500m at speeds of 500km/h - 4x-2x mk108 are useless due to poor balistics/low muzzle velocity/too much deflection, 6x.50 cals are useless due to too much spread/low damage, 2x MG151s have too slow total ROF, and 2x mk103s (the only useful high speeds gun) are mounted on a non-existing plane (Gotha). I can shoot very well at 500m distances in props, at props, but on jets vs. jets maps it takes me three times the default ammount of ammo to get a kill (i.e. three sorties), unless flying a Gotha.

So, for historical accuracy AND fairness props must have initial E advantage that turns them into P-80s, but then its the very same frustrating affair as for jets v/s jets, when it comes to dogfighting, and I doubt that many would choose to fly the bombers (and make the jets go after those).

Komet vs. bomb-loaded airstarted p-47s seems to be the only way to me (then at least - one can get the Komets in the glide phase, without breaking the no vulching rules)

VW-IceFire
02-02-2006, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I think it was Ta-152H's that protected the Me-262's during takeoff and landing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, the great Russian ace Khozedub shot down a Me-262 and he later admitted that this was only possible because the Me-262 pilot tried to outturn him. I've noticed that the Me-262, when used as a "dogfighter", is pure boom and zoom, not turn.

BTW, I might not have the latest patch, but for fun, I tried flying the Me-262 against the A6M2 Zero and the Zero could "keep up with me" like nobody's business...what the ***!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Mostly FW190D-9s (and other models) protecting the Me-262's. The only Ta-152H's to fly operationally DID protect Me-262's but the vast majority of fighters protecting them were D-9's. And for good reason...the D-9s superb acceleration and ability to meet the attack was the counter point to the Me-262s slow acceleration and spool up period.

carguy_
02-02-2006, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
the only map that can be acceptabe for jets is one where p-51s and p-47s get an air start at 10000m (with b-25 bombers) 2 squares away from the me262 base.

Lack of coop experience.
Me262 wouldn`t gain even 5000m in that time.Should be a minimum of 40km for the bombers to target.




So, for historical accuracy AND fairness props must have initial E advantage that turns them into P-80s, but then its the very same frustrating affair as for jets v/s jets, when it comes to dogfighting, and I doubt that many would choose to fly the bombers (and make the jets go after those).

That`s the problem with you guys.Wanting fairness.I don`t think any Me109 pilot called Yanks unfair n00bs just because he had 4 of them on his six once he attacked the bombers in WWII.
I know you want to have fun,that`s where you admit you aint got the passion or interest in historical scenarios.I don`t care if I have 5 P51 on me cuz it was like this in WWII.I know that if I try to land in a Me262 there will be multiple P38 vulching.Very cool if you ask me.

Historical accuracy is everything but fairness.


If they decide to give Russian airfields 300% and German 100% in online wars I`d be happy to fly CUZ IT WAS LIKE THIS IN REAL WWII.
The problem is that three times the resourses compared to other playing side is unfair.

pffft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Badsight.
02-02-2006, 08:42 PM
I think the Me262 annoys so much because there is NO 2nd chance. If you are hit with one round of his mk108 you are almost definitely going down (and you are usually hit by more than one). never a more true word

it cant do the exciting turning DF like a prop can

it doesnt have a prop

it doesnt even have pistons

so much for the WW2 piston/prop fighter fan to hate . . . .

personally , the 262 has never come close to beating my DF room sortie record , you cant score at will & mix it up recklessly because its so fragile

Badsight.
02-02-2006, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
If you read combat reports about Me-262s that were shot down in air to air engagements you will see that quite a few were downed after they began to turn. Allied fighters were advised to turn when attacked by Me-262s. In Steinhoff's book you can read about his frustration while flying the Me-262 against a group of Soviet fighters on one mission. They turned better and evaded his attacks time and again. i bet you that regular FB players (everyday) are way better at FB than these guys were at their RL flying - & that if they came into this game they would be hard pressed to catch up quickly

this is the exact senario that Me-262 users have to face in each sortie against human prop users - & its hella fun : )

Von_Rat
02-02-2006, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
flew 262 last nite on warclouds, it was fun.

having its natural enemy the tempest in game will maybe allow for it to be used more often.

btw the old plane stats at warclouds showed that the 262 got shot down alot, it had somthing like a .5 kd ratio.

unless the jet jockey knows his stuff a 262 is a easy kill.

thats because of poor pilots. Hell i had some me262 pilots try and turn fight me, but any 262 flown with anyone who has half a brain is essentially untouchable ive never been shotdown by it, it can fly in level flight more than some planes eg spit can dive without breaking up. Essentially the only chance to kill one is hope the pilot sucks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

then the vast majority of 262 pilots suck, by looking at the stats.

if there is a good pilot in a dora or p47 or stang3 hes untouchable to.

the odds are more in your favor fighting a 262 because the chances are much greater that he sucks. the chances that a dora pilot sucks are much lower.

if you never got shot down by a 262 then you prove my point. i know you've been shot down by doras. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

jimDG
02-03-2006, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
the only map that can be acceptabe for jets is one where p-51s and p-47s get an air start at 10000m (with b-25 bombers) 2 squares away from the me262 base.

Lack of coop experience.
Me262 wouldn`t gain even 5000m in that time.Should be a minimum of 40km for the bombers to target.




So, for historical accuracy AND fairness props must have initial E advantage that turns them into P-80s, but then its the very same frustrating affair as for jets v/s jets, when it comes to dogfighting, and I doubt that many would choose to fly the bombers (and make the jets go after those).

That`s the problem with you guys. Wanting fairness. I don`t think any Me109 pilot called Yanks unfair n00bs just because he had 4 of them on his six once he attacked the bombers in WWII.
I know you want to have fun,that`s where you admit you aint got the passion or interest in historical scenarios.I don`t care if I have 5 P51 on me cuz it was like this in WWII.I know that if I try to land in a Me262 there will be multiple P38 vulching.Very cool if you ask me.

Historical accuracy is everything but fairness.


If they decide to give Russian airfields 300% and German 100% in online wars I`d be happy to fly CUZ IT WAS LIKE THIS IN REAL WWII.
The problem is that three times the resourses compared to other playing side is unfair.

pffft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me262s can gain height flying the other way. Given how fast props would loose energy, and reduce their speed to bellow 450 km/h i think its fair. Or if not - you can make it 5000m airstart, whatever.

As to fairness - I would certainly love to see a map where vulching is allowed and airfield have lots of flak (so much flak is unfeasable with the current engine though) and fw190Ds for protection, but this is not all that is needed for historical accuracy. In real life everyone is either cought on the airfiled landing and dies and those on the ground dont take off at all, or if there are no p51s - me262 go about doing their job. You cant fit this into a 1 hour online map where there are definitely p51s, and according to historical accuracy everyone would go to a different field if landing, and not take off at all.
Hm, actually now that I think of it, one could have 50 small airfields and solve the problem this way - But! then the me262 could easily gain height undetected, and there would be no way to put the p51s into a balanced position above them.

Some fairness (i.e. balance) is needed to populate the server, otherwise few would join the loosing side, and noone would stay on the winning side if there is nothing to shoot at.

carguy_
02-03-2006, 10:45 AM
You`re right in regards to server population.

However,you`re talkin bout DF server scripted or not

I`m talking bout an online coop.

In an online coop one can arrange about anything required for max realism reachable with the use of the sim`s FMB.

About airstarts I`m not so sure,though often I fly P51 against Me262 and find every mission ppl who fly Me262 below 4000m and fall easy prey to those knowing what they`re doing.

Coops don`t need balance.I`ve been flying three years now against people who take their time to participate in Barbarossa.They select Chaikas/Ratas/LaGGs/Yaks and get the show going against swarms of Bf109F2 and sometimes Emils.Popularity of Bellum War/IL2 War and CAD clearly state so.

Up to late`42 red guys flying VVS are outpaced though they profit from the game`s fake viewing system and very bad ground battles model.None the less,they have mostly inferior planes.