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ollymate
11-17-2011, 06:08 PM
and now having to begin the countdown for the next one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif sounds like im wishing my life away but so many questions need answering!

Shaunzy95
11-17-2011, 06:13 PM
Couldn't agree more.

Serrachio
11-17-2011, 06:20 PM
Lets just hope they can balance the main story and side missions.

tjbyrum1
11-17-2011, 06:22 PM
I feel like Multiplayer might be taking away from the Single Player.
Whereas it used to be 100% single player, now I feel like it went to 25% Multiplayer and 75% Single Player in Brotherhood; in Revelations I fear it might be 35% Multiplayer and 65% Single Player.

Shaunzy95
11-17-2011, 06:25 PM
I hope that they finally answer our questions!

Yeah, I agree. I played multiplayer after finishing the story in ACB and I was hooked. Haven't tried ACR multiplayer yet.

Sarari
11-17-2011, 06:26 PM
Did they answer a lot of questions in Revelations or was Ubisoft playing a joke on us?...

tjbyrum1
11-17-2011, 06:28 PM
Well Sarari, from what I have read they did answer a bit of our questions, but not all of them and they also opened up many more questions.

Sarari
11-17-2011, 06:31 PM
Hate it when they do that....

Shaunzy95
11-17-2011, 06:31 PM
They did answer some but nothing we didn't already know or could work out for ourselves. I still love the game though. I'm just saying it would have been nice to finally get the answers we really want.

Sarari
11-17-2011, 06:37 PM
I thought Ubisoft was being cheap with Brotherhood, and then I shook that thought away and figured they probably weren't, but after Revelations came out, the thought has triggered in my mind once again and it's not gonna change until AC3 comes out.

Ubisoft said we'd be getting so many things from them. Answers, free-roam in different cities, soundtrack to ACR, etc. But apparently we didn't get any of those.

If they didn't answer questions we really didn't know about, then I wouldn't call it Revelations. More like AC: Secrets we know.

Ubisoft ripped us off, no doubt in my mind...

Shaunzy95
11-17-2011, 06:41 PM
This!

I mean, it is a way for them to make money. They're just milking it for all they can get. I mean, I really didn't see the need in two games after AC2. One, fair enough. But with Revelations you know they're just doing it to make a quick buck. And I was deeply disappointed with the soundtrack we got. It did say in the description that it was the game soundtrack. So yeah, they better get their act together and knock our socks off with AC3. They owe us.

tjbyrum1
11-17-2011, 06:48 PM
Personally, I don't see why everyone's complaining. I mean, I don't have the game, and I wouldn't understand what you're mad at.

But from what I heard, it is a vast improvement over Brotherhood and recent titles. A better story than Brotherhood, much more diverse and better setting, new characters with personalities, improvement over nearly every mechanic, the hookblade, the whole new den defense system, Desmond missions, availability to be Altair in his past, confirmation of some questions and answers, among other things.

To me, it seems people are taking for granted the Assassin's Creed games. These Assassin's Creed games don't seem like a joke, to me they seem like real deal straight up quality games that only seems to get better with each installment.

Seriously, what other games improve on itself like Assassin's Creed games? You don't see Halo, Call of Duty, and others improving itself as much as Assassin's Creed does.

Ubisoft is doing a great job in my opinion, but I don't want to sound like a fanboy. It just makes me mad that these games are so good but people complain about them.

Shaunzy95
11-17-2011, 06:52 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love the games. And Revelations is a big improvement. But it's just little things that are a bit annoying. I mean, another year of waiting to see what will happen next, when they could have made AC3 instead of Revelations. I dunno. The games are great. I am a fan and I always will be. It's just a tad annoying that they keep us waiting all the time to only reveal a teeny bit of new information.

tjbyrum1
11-17-2011, 06:54 PM
Well put it this way, instead of having everything revealed in Revelations we'll have everything revealed in the finale - AC III.

I would look at it like ACI, II, B, are all part of the rising action, while Revelations ending was the climax, and III will be the action and falling action and resolution.

Shaunzy95
11-17-2011, 07:08 PM
I hope so. I hope AC3 will be the kicker, telling us everything we've wanted to know from the beginning. I'm sure it'll be good.

Sarari
11-17-2011, 07:12 PM
I still think no AC game can compare to AC1. It may have improved in all fields, but it's still the best to me.

SavetheCuban
11-17-2011, 07:16 PM
holy crap. ill tell u it answers alot of questions but makes u ask more as well

jmk1999
11-17-2011, 07:44 PM
<span class="ev_code_RED">this topic is dangerously close to posting spoilers. please NO SPOILERS in the general discussion forum. thank you.</span>

Mikl-90-
11-17-2011, 08:22 PM
If AC3 is as rushed as Revelations it will be a huge disappointment.

woowu
11-18-2011, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Seriously, what other games improve on itself like Assassin's Creed games? You don't see Halo, Call of Duty, and others improving itself as much as Assassin's Creed does.

Well, given the right amount of time Batman games are better and better with each iteration, if you want to talk about samey game mechanics as AC. It's just that they try to shove these games out in 12 months and it's really hard to come up with solid gameplay mechanics that work (I find it ridiculous that they did the survey for ACR). Instead of releasing yearly AC games they might actually take a year off and focus on the improvement of the core mechanics that make the game.

iN3krO
11-18-2011, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Sarari:
I still think no AC game can compare to AC1. It may have improved in all fields, but it's still the best to me.

Sarari can you become my mentor? :$


Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Seriously, what other games improve on itself like Assassin's Creed games? You don't see Halo, Call of Duty, and others improving itself as much as Assassin's Creed does.

I'm also Call of Duty fan, i liked every cod, even thought only mw series got me playing it for a long time...

It's true there isn't as many changes from each cod to other but, i don't really care about it...

CoD:Mw1 was a new concept in the CoD franchise, it was just AWSOME.
CoD:WaW took CoD:Mw1, changed multiplayer to fit WW2 and ready.
CoD:Mw2 Improved everything Mw1 had, thought in pc we do not have dedicated servers anymore, it was the only problem to me.
CoD:BlackOps balanced what Mw2 had umbalanced (or almost everything) but didn't attract me that much. Dedicated Servers back, AWSOME.
CoD:Mw3: Improved EVERYTHING that could be improved from Mw2, used some stuff that was used in BO to balance (and also some new features), included dedicated servers for private matches (competitive scene +++).

As you may notice, they improved EVERYTHING that needed and after making sure they did it, they add new stuff.

In Assassin's Creed they improve social stealth but add/remove many features (add bad features and remove good ones) and keep the bad features as umbalanced as they was in the first game we see them.... I still like the games, but it's no way cuz of the crapppy gameplay we are getting... they improve story and graphics (improved graphics for me is USELESS) and make everything else worst and worst in each installement....

Do you really think that change is better then just improve?

The_Sphinx
11-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Just finished it myself, and I am thoroughly disappointed with the story.

For a game that calls itself "revelations", it sure goes out of its way not to reveal anything. The Desmond stuff revealed nothing other than some backstory on Desmond's life. The Altair parts were appalingly short, ultra-linear and overall not very interesting. Thee Ezio story was crazy. Ezio is responsible for killing entire cities of people and screws not only himself but his entire brotherhood by getting close to the girl. And in the end? He finds what he is looking for for years and just drops everything and says "screw this, I'm outta here". Just awful.


As for the gameplay, I've never seen a game with so many good improvements as bad design choices. The assassin system where you have to appoint assassin's to dens and do sidemissions with them is pretty genius, but the notority system and subsequent den defence is probably one of the worst things I've ever encountered. I'm not sure if the PS3 version is bugged or something, but den defense controls loke crap. There is no onscreen cursor, the roofs do not highlight and assigning an assassin to a certain spot is a pain in the ***.
The social stealth is still as broken as ever, way too many missions go wrong because the AI is still as broken as ever [pathfinding, collision detection, other janky glitches].

The city itself looks amazing, definately the best in the franchise.

All in all I'm not really happy with how this game turned out. It feels like I've been playing a random episode from a season of 24 or something.


Also - no Abstergo? What's up with that?

zerocooll21
11-18-2011, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Mikl-90-:
If AC3 is as rushed as Revelations it will be a huge disappointment.

+1

Sarekofvulcan
11-18-2011, 02:13 PM
I agree with Sarari, AC1 was the best, although ACII was very good to. But then came brotherhood and now (not)Revelation.

Just to state a obvious fact AC1 + II where designed as single player games. All resources for the game where spend on the single player experience. The story, graphics was excellent. The game play was many times doing the same things but the story (and how you got sucked in to it) made it up.

The came Brotherhood where they introduced the multi-player functions (compare it to other MP games it was/is awful). And there we saw a change the single player was by far not even close to the first 2.

Now in Revelation (which is in my book Brotherhood 2) they expanded Brotherhood instead of going back to the basics to what made AC 1 a hugh hit and great game.

If there is going to be a new game after this one, i fear the will expand it to Brotherhood part 3 instead of making a real AC3.

In a other post people complained that thay had to pay for Uplay account (10 dollar or so), and a answer was "Servers to setup multi player games cost money". Well i have a solution shutdown the multi player servers, the money you save by doing that can be used to make a new and awesome stunning mind blowing new AC3

zerocooll21
11-18-2011, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Sarekofvulcan:
Well i have a solution shutdown the multi player servers, the money you save by doing that can be used to make a new and awesome stunning mind blowing new AC3

HA!

ACfreak357
11-18-2011, 02:49 PM
Are you guys serious?You guys are actually mad at Ubisoft for making Revelations?They made it so they can end Altair's and Ezio's story's so when AC3 comes out with a new assassin people don't complain about not knowing what happened to Altair and Ezio.

Also the next game is probably going to be called AC3 but it won't be the finale....their going to make it a series like they did with AC2. They made AC2 and then ACB then finally ACR.

That is what they are going to do for AC3. They will have a new assassin and make a series out of it. Personally I would prefer that because we get to enjoy more games. But that's just what I think.

And take a year off to improve? No. 1- I don't feel like waiting 2 years to see what happens next. 2- They have been doing amazing with just a year to make these games. The amount of quality and detail that are in these games are extraordinary and incredible for a years worth of work.

zerocooll21
11-18-2011, 02:57 PM
lol, I'm not entirely mad. Just annoyed in a few area's. Still love the series hands down.

Sarari
11-18-2011, 02:58 PM
ACfreak, no. I'd rather wat 2 years for a well polished game to come out than wait 1 year for a game to have crappy fighting moves and speedy mechanics. When I say, I'm referring to the moves in ACB and ACR. Have you seen the new moves they added? They ****ty, that's all I can say, and they make him abnormally quick when he does them.

Only fanboys would say that they're doing great with the series. I honestly don't know how you guys can be completely fine with how the series is ever since ACB.

All I can say right now is that I don't care when AC3 is coming because I just know that it's gonna be as crappy as ACB and ACR.

ACfreak357
11-18-2011, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Sarari:
ACfreak, no. I'd rather wat 2 years for a well polished game to come out than wait 1 year for a game to have crappy fighting moves and speedy mechanics. When I say, I'm referring to the moves in ACB and ACR. Have you seen the new moves they added? They ****ty, that's all I can say, and they make him abnormally quick when he does them.

Only fanboys would say that they're doing great with the series. I honestly don't know how you guys can be completely fine with how the series is ever since ACB.

All I can say right now is that I don't care when AC3 is coming because I just know that it's gonna be as crappy as ACB and ACR.

The only thing I agree with you about is the fact that the speedy mechanics are pretty dumb. I mean they give you no challenge at all when fighting huge crowds of enemies because you counter kill one guy then perform a chain of kills until everyone's dead. But the fighting moves are crappy?!?!?!Are you serious Ezio's finishing moves are AMAZING and really highlight his talent in fighting they are probably the best fighting techniques I have seen in any game.

jcoyle_hull
11-20-2011, 04:30 PM
I think there was need to make two more games, if you know about the Borgias and Cesare then they needed a full game to finish them characters off, although i would argue they didnt do a good job with there story.
Revelations was a great ending to Ezios story he grew into a mentor assassin went and found out about the origins of his order (as you would want to know what hes been fighting for since he revenged his family he needed to know the true meaning for his struggles).

I really do think that ubisoft had all this planned and arent just milking it Altairs story was never finished in my opinion so they must have planned to end it in Revelations all along.

I also think its worked out well
AC1
'AC2
'AC:B
'AC:R
AC3

I would expect AC3 to be a long game and quite well mixed between the ancestor/ancestors and Desmond.

Animuses
11-20-2011, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by ACfreak357:
Are you guys serious?You guys are actually mad at Ubisoft for making Revelations?They made it so they can end Altair's and Ezio's story's so when AC3 comes out with a new assassin people don't complain about not knowing what happened to Altair and Ezio.
No, that's not why they made it. ACB and ACR were made because the higher ups in Ubisoft want to milk their biggest franchise.

LightRey
11-21-2011, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfreak357:
Are you guys serious?You guys are actually mad at Ubisoft for making Revelations?They made it so they can end Altair's and Ezio's story's so when AC3 comes out with a new assassin people don't complain about not knowing what happened to Altair and Ezio.
No, that's not why they made it. ACB and ACR were made because the higher ups in Ubisoft want to milk their biggest franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not exactly. There were a lot of requests from the fans to see more of Ezio and Alta´r. Ubi simply wanted to please those fans and make money in the process.

UrDeviant1
11-21-2011, 06:13 AM
I'm starting to think when Ubi made AC:1 they never realized how big this game would get and how much the fans have come to expect. I mean if AC:3 isn't jaw droppingly epic and somewhat unique with a deeper main story then i doubt any future AC title will be.

I hope this isn't the case though cause i love Assassins Creed!

misterB2001
11-21-2011, 08:09 AM
its simple, they knew it would be best to bring AC3 out in 2012 to coincide with the Desmond story line.

In the mean time they knocked out a couple of decent games, with new elements added, to make money no doubt, but they were both fun. Revelations, for me, is only 3 decent sequences of content away from being as good as AC2.

I imagine AC3 has been in development for a couple of year and will be the spectacle it deserves to be.

SupremeCaptain
11-21-2011, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfreak357:
Are you guys serious?You guys are actually mad at Ubisoft for making Revelations?They made it so they can end Altair's and Ezio's story's so when AC3 comes out with a new assassin people don't complain about not knowing what happened to Altair and Ezio.
No, that's not why they made it. ACB and ACR were made because the higher ups in Ubisoft want to milk their biggest franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So damn true.

As I said in the feedback thread, this is the last AC game I will buy.

Gameplay is bad, and the story is... dumb. Brotherhood's gameplay frustrated me a lot, and the only thing I had going for me was the story, so I got Revelations. That turned out to be a huge disappointed so no more, I'm done with this series.

Assassin_M
11-21-2011, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfreak357:
Are you guys serious?You guys are actually mad at Ubisoft for making Revelations?They made it so they can end Altair's and Ezio's story's so when AC3 comes out with a new assassin people don't complain about not knowing what happened to Altair and Ezio.
No, that's not why they made it. ACB and ACR were made because the higher ups in Ubisoft want to milk their biggest franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So damn true.

As I said in the feedback thread, this is the last AC game I will buy.

Gameplay is bad, and the story is... dumb. Brotherhood's gameplay frustrated me a lot, and the only thing I had going for me was the story, so I got Revelations. That turned out to be a huge disappointed so no more, I'm done with this series. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good for you, mate..

SupremeCaptain
11-21-2011, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfreak357:
Are you guys serious?You guys are actually mad at Ubisoft for making Revelations?They made it so they can end Altair's and Ezio's story's so when AC3 comes out with a new assassin people don't complain about not knowing what happened to Altair and Ezio.
No, that's not why they made it. ACB and ACR were made because the higher ups in Ubisoft want to milk their biggest franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So damn true.

As I said in the feedback thread, this is the last AC game I will buy.

Gameplay is bad, and the story is... dumb. Brotherhood's gameplay frustrated me a lot, and the only thing I had going for me was the story, so I got Revelations. That turned out to be a huge disappointed so no more, I'm done with this series. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good for you, mate.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks pal. Best to save money and avoid being disappointed. I hate that it's come to this.

._.

Assassin_M
11-21-2011, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:


Thanks pal. Best to save money and avoid being disappointed. I hate that it's come to this.

._.
Sure, Anytime..

Animuses
11-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
So damn true.

As I said in the feedback thread, this is the last AC game I will buy.

Gameplay is bad, and the story is... dumb. Brotherhood's gameplay frustrated me a lot, and the only thing I had going for me was the story, so I got Revelations. That turned out to be a huge disappointed so no more, I'm done with this series.
I thought the gameplay was great and the story was a lot better than Brotherhood's, BUT...

The whole franchise has taken a different turn since Brotherhood, which is obvious because everyone that made the series great left. I won't be getting to play the AC3 that was supposed to come out after AC2, I'll be getting a totally different AC3 next year and I just won't be satisfied like I was with the first two games ever again...

SupremeCaptain
11-21-2011, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
So damn true.

As I said in the feedback thread, this is the last AC game I will buy.

Gameplay is bad, and the story is... dumb. Brotherhood's gameplay frustrated me a lot, and the only thing I had going for me was the story, so I got Revelations. That turned out to be a huge disappointed so no more, I'm done with this series.
I thought the gameplay was great and the story was a lot better than Brotherhood's, BUT...

The whole franchise has taken a different turn since Brotherhood, which is obvious because everyone that made the series great left. I won't be getting to play the AC3 that was supposed to come out after AC2, I'll be getting a totally different AC3 next year and I just won't be satisfied like I was with the first two games ever again... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I felt the gameplay wasn't tested enough. It didn't frustrate me as much as Brotherhood, but Ezio stops too much, when it's obvious he should be able to climb there, or he jumps in the wrong direction. I know the gameplay can be good, I just can't enjoy it. There are times I didn't want to climb at all.

Well, the story was okay. I liked how Ezio was happy around Sofia, but the ending just made me feel empty. Just thinking I payed money for the story, and all I got in the ending was some weird new story plot and no answers to what we were promised.

The amount of bugs too shows to me that Ubisoft just didn't care.

YHHTQ
11-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
So damn true.

As I said in the feedback thread, this is the last AC game I will buy.

Gameplay is bad, and the story is... dumb. Brotherhood's gameplay frustrated me a lot, and the only thing I had going for me was the story, so I got Revelations. That turned out to be a huge disappointed so no more, I'm done with this series.
I thought the gameplay was great and the story was a lot better than Brotherhood's, BUT...

The whole franchise has taken a different turn since Brotherhood, which is obvious because everyone that made the series great left. I won't be getting to play the AC3 that was supposed to come out after AC2, I'll be getting a totally different AC3 next year and I just won't be satisfied like I was with the first two games ever again... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I felt the gameplay wasn't tested enough. It didn't frustrate me as much as Brotherhood, but Ezio stops too much, when it's obvious he should be able to climb there, or he jumps in the wrong direction. I know the gameplay can be good, I just can't enjoy it. There are times I didn't want to climb at all.

Well, the story was okay. I liked how Ezio was happy around Sofia, but the ending just made me feel empty. Just thinking I payed money for the story, and all I got in the ending was some weird new story plot and no answers to what we were promised.

The amount of bugs too shows to me that Ubisoft just didn't care. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but the game provided a lot of answers... You may not feel satisfied with what was given, but that's an entirely different matter IMO.

phoenix-force411
11-21-2011, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Personally, I don't see why everyone's complaining. I mean, I don't have the game, and I wouldn't understand what you're mad at.

But from what I heard, it is a vast improvement over Brotherhood and recent titles. A better story than Brotherhood, much more diverse and better setting, new characters with personalities, improvement over nearly every mechanic, the hookblade, the whole new den defense system, Desmond missions, availability to be Altair in his past, confirmation of some questions and answers, among other things.

To me, it seems people are taking for granted the Assassin's Creed games. These Assassin's Creed games don't seem like a joke, to me they seem like real deal straight up quality games that only seems to get better with each installment.

Seriously, what other games improve on itself like Assassin's Creed games? You don't see Halo, Call of Duty, and others improving itself as much as Assassin's Creed does.

Ubisoft is doing a great job in my opinion, but I don't want to sound like a fanboy. It just makes me mad that these games are so good but people complain about them.

I agree with you!

Animuses
11-21-2011, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
The amount of bugs too shows to me that Ubisoft just didn't care.
I wouldn't say that. The devs seemed to have busted their butts and did what they can do in a year. If anyone is to blame, blame the higher ups. They forced annual releases for games that NEED at least two years development time.

YHHTQ
11-21-2011, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Animuses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SupremeCaptain:
The amount of bugs too shows to me that Ubisoft just didn't care.
I wouldn't say that. The devs seemed to have busted their butts and did what they can do in a year. If anyone is to blame, blame the higher ups. They forced annual releases for games that NEED at least two years development time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFT.

Either way, I haven't found a SINGLE game-breaking bug thus far; Good enough for me.

CRUDFACE
11-21-2011, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Well Sarari, from what I have read they did answer a bit of our questions, but not all of them and they also opened up many more questions.

What questions were left?

YHHTQ
11-21-2011, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Well Sarari, from what I have read they did answer a bit of our questions, but not all of them and they also opened up many more questions.

What questions were left? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Listen to what Tinia - or Jupiter - says for instance. They were there already, yet on the back of our heads most likely.