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View Full Version : I Know This Is An Old Issue, But...



Treetop64
04-21-2006, 05:01 PM
...I've reached the end of my tether! I've never complained much about this sim, as there is so much to love about this work.

But...

...something MUST be done about the AI! Period!

Case in point: I'm flying a Bf109-F4 in the southern Eastern front campaign. After a particularly brutal fight with many, many I-16s over Saki (I don't know how many, but we were DEFINITELY outnumbered. We did, however, start with a significant altitude advantage...), I decide it's time to head home. I've already lost my altitude advantage, and my wingman. The other Schwarm has already departed the scene. I'm down to less than 1000 meters over the water, and there's still countless I-16s winding and buzzing around me like hornets!

I decide it's time to go away, apply 110% power, and use whatever altitude I have left to gain speed and depart. Now, the 109F4 is significantly faster, under any condition at any altitude, than any version of the I-16, particularly in high-speed level flight - which is the condition I ended up in.

I'm basically on the deck, at 110% power, but watching the temps so as to not cook the engine. My aircraft has sustained no other damage in the fight. Then I pull back to 100% power, but I still should be able to leave the I-16s falling further behind.

Right?

Um...

...no.

After five minutes of this, not only were they keeping up, but they actually began to catch up with me once I cut the power back to save the engine. I know my engine was not overheating, because I have the warning messages enabled, and the temps were below the 120 degree mark. obviously, theirs weren't overheating, either...

Then the green tracers started flying past! I was incredulous...

I turned and saw that there were still about ten of those little buggers, relentlessly hunting me down like a pack of dogs at a fox hunt, arguing over who would shoot me down first! I tried gentle climbing and aggressive dive acceleration to get away, combined with gentle, high-speed turns, but they still stayed right with me, firing away gleefully!

Finally, after nearly ten minutes of this madness, and out of fustration, I pegged the throttle and kept it there. I then assumed a level but gently descending flight towards home, to maintain the highest speed possible for as long as possible, hoping they would run out of range and turn back.

It didn't happen.

The engine began making those unnatural noises, and I knew I was doomed. I pulled back the throtte again, but now it was too late. The I-16s eventually caught up with me and blasted me to oblivion...

Now, simply said, the way that scenario played out should never have happened. I did everything right (except choosing to engage in the fight in the first place) and I still lost.

Frankly, that cheesed me off in a big way...

Again, I'm usually blowing the trumphet on how great this sim is, but that experience affected my attitude greatly - about the AI in particular. In a bad way.

I would GLADLY give back a LOT of the fantastic planes we've been gifted over the years with all the patches, just to trade for an AI that behaves more realisticly than it presently does! Why can't their engines overheat?! How come they can pull continuous high-G maneuvers till the cows come home, but I can't just because I have (and want) blackouts enabled?!

Seriously, doods, something must be done about this...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

carguy_
04-21-2006, 05:17 PM
If you ask me the AI were never good enough to simulate a pilot career offline.Too many unrealistic situations.You set enemy AI to ace and yours to ace - your AI get butchered,you set enemy to average - there is nothing left to shoot at.

Played all IL2 campaigns because online was no option.Nothing beats flying with humans even when the server will never match the complexity of offline campaign.

Online IMO it`s a problem of too big gap between each AI setting.Rookies/Average/veteran sometimes don`t even react to your presence then there`s the Ace who doesn`t have blackouts and pulls 70deg deflection shots with 40% accuracy.

About the thesis that AI have the very same FM I`m not so sure.Not farther till yesterday night I was tring to catch a Yak9 in a G6early in a sustained 20deg climb.We began @2400m and it lasted until 5600m the same only then I got pissed and got him with 110%/rad closed.

VW-IceFire
04-21-2006, 05:21 PM
Treetop...indeed this seems to be a serious problem in 4.04. The AI is simply faster and more capable than any human ever...

I'm under no illusions...and I don't think you are either...that the AI is likely to get any smarter...but they cheat an aweful lot and they shouldn't. I had a pair of 109G-6s with MG151/20 gunpods run down my plane which was a fully WEP'ed Tempest in a shallow dive. Same problem. Eventually I got over homeplate and they both got nailed by 40mm Bofors after a few minutes evading them.

ElAurens
04-21-2006, 05:26 PM
I have totally stopped flying any offline campaigns. Why bother, the AI are simply overpowering, in every way.

Treetop64
04-21-2006, 05:41 PM
Thanks.

I was just thinking: if I'm having these difficulties now against little I-16s and I'm in a 109-F4, what happens later in the campaign when the Russians are equipped with more capable aircraft, and in even greater numbers?

It's pointless...

Fix - no, overhaul the friggin' AI, please...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

faustnik
04-21-2006, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Treetop64:

I was just thinking: if I'm having these difficulties now against little I-16s and I'm in a 109-F4, what happens later in the campaign when the Russians are equipped with more capable aircraft, and in even greater numbers?



I've been flying the Kurland offline campaign in the Fw190A6 and it's great in 4.04. So, maybe it gets better later in the war?

horseback
04-21-2006, 06:00 PM
Since I'm not flying Tempest campaigns, I copied the Forgotten Battles 4.04m folder to My Documents and applied the 4.01 patch.

My I-16 AI opponents are merely mortal.

If you're not flying the new aircraft, there's no point to waiting around twiddling your thumbs; copy & backpatch. You can use your copy of 4.04m for joyriding or online, but you don't have to deal with the c**p AI.

If/When the patch that fixes the AI comes along, you can simply copy the Users and Missions folders from the version you've been using and continue your campaigns without interrruption.

cheers

horseback

Treetop64
04-21-2006, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:

I was just thinking: if I'm having these difficulties now against little I-16s and I'm in a 109-F4, what happens later in the campaign when the Russians are equipped with more capable aircraft, and in even greater numbers?



I've been flying the Kurland offline campaign in the Fw190A6 and it's great in 4.04. So, maybe it gets better later in the war? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps. I'm actually still flying that campaign (I'm obviously not flying DiD this time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), but now I have to be very careful about getting myself in a situation that I may have to eventually run away from.

However, this should not be the case when considering a fight against the little Polikarpovs, especially when starting with an altitude and speed advantage, in a much superior aircraft. Ironically enough, my AI squadmates in the other schwarm had no such difficulties against them. The leaders simply ran out of ammo, then successfully departed the scene exactly the same way I attempted to.

Treetop64
04-21-2006, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
Since I'm not flying Tempest campaigns, I copied the Forgotten Battles 4.04m folder to My Documents and applied the 4.01 patch.

My I-16 AI opponents are merely mortal.

If you're not flying the new aircraft, there's no point to waiting around twiddling your thumbs; copy & backpatch. You can use your copy of 4.04m for joyriding or online, but you don't have to deal with the c**p AI.

If/When the patch that fixes the AI comes along, you can simply copy the Users and Missions folders from the version you've been using and continue your campaigns without interrruption.

cheers

horseback

I've actually begun another installation to the external drive to do just that! But I certainly hope the AI gets fixed, because I love the 4.04 FM and de-syncronization of the .50s.

FritzGryphon
04-21-2006, 06:25 PM
the AI are simply overpowering, in every way

Come now, the AI may be too fast, but you give it too much credit.

This is the same AI that cannot hit a 1 degree rear deflection shot, does not turn it's aircraft anywhere near maximum, is afraid to dive or spit-S within 500m of the ground, wingwaggles incessantly when turning near the ground, routinely crashes into the ground, wastes ammo like water, constantly does crazy energy wasting jinks, crash into each other while chasing you, will dociley fly into hills or smokestacks, and so forth.

A better assessment of their effectiveness would be like drunken clowns on unicycles chasing you.

MOH_MADMAN
04-21-2006, 06:40 PM
The new AI pilots are great, dont change a thing, they finally fly like real savvy aces, and are exceptionally skilled, all the better to puch a pilot along... and no more of that wagging tail as they climb, lol, good riddance to that.

MAD

Treetop64
04-21-2006, 06:51 PM
I agree on that part. The AI is great to fight with, but if you have to re-assess the situation, and decide to turn and run for it, the AI should not be able to chase you down and tackle you if you are flying the much faster aircraft. And they should be limitied by the same physiological and physical constraints as the player, i.e. blackouts under high-G loads, overheating engines, airframe failure under very high dive speeds, etc.

danjama
04-21-2006, 08:36 PM
ok ill give my opinion here.

The AI is ****. Absolute monkey ***z.

Since i am offline only as of late, i was messing round playing a few single missions and testing my own creations, and also playing qmb's.

Here is what i noticed:

1.AI is faster in any situation, usually by a huge margin. No matter what maneuvers they make they stay fast. Its crazy.
2.They are able not only to follow your actions, but copy them by the second. Bank left, so will he. Climb so will he. Perfectly. No gettin away from these bastards.
3.Perfect aim. One burst = you dead.
4.Perfect squadron tactics. Wingmen and leaders do their jobs. Oh wait, EXCEPT when their on your side. Thats right. The enemy AI is perfect at tactics. Your AI suck. Dont do what you tell them. Their sitting ducks in most cases.

I havnt ever known the AI to be this crappy. EVER! Even when i played online mostly ive always used offline too for mission testing and i can honestly say the AI is terrible. No point flying against it, just a waste of time and effort. I feel sorry for any offliners, because they will have to use old patches for good A (oh wait im offline now, what a POS).

Sort this out Oleg for christs sake. What the hell did we pay for?!

tagTaken2
04-22-2006, 12:01 AM
I'm flying FB 1.22 at the moment, love the fps, but I'm sick of PK during bomber attacks (and I'm not being a noob about it).

So, what is the best post 4.0 (for FM, which I really like) for the AI?

4.00?
4.01?
4.02?
4.03?

ps, flying russian only.

Bo_Nidle
04-22-2006, 05:01 AM
I have found that once I get my aircraft with its propellor almost mowing the lawn the AI tend to break off but once I begin to climb again they renew their interest until I go flymo again.

I watched my eldest lad outrun Zero's once his P-51 went "winchester" over the Pacific by using the same tactic.

Bremspropeller
04-22-2006, 05:10 AM
The main problem about AI is that they don't have any FM restrictions.

That means that an AI Zero will follow you Kittyhawk in a dive and catch you on the pullout.
They're not only as fast as you - they also DON'T break up at spedds, where human-driven planes of the same type disintigrate.

HotelBushranger
04-22-2006, 06:38 AM
Amen to that, I've dived from 3000m to 1000m against Zeros in a P-40M, I'm almost at 700kmh and they are at 300kmh by the time I pass them, but I look around and there they are following me, at 700kmh. Its bloody ridiculous!

edgflyer
04-22-2006, 06:51 AM
I bump this.
I was doing a what if scenerio flying a FW190-D and could not pull away from the Zero's.

However, it was cool to hit them with those guns.

Great sim but some things are a little anoying

lowfighter
04-22-2006, 07:30 AM
If you play only offline, you might simply go back to 4.03. I find the AI quite nice there. If you play both online and offline you can copy the FB folder to another location and apply 4.03 or some other patch over it. So you'll have two versions one for offline one for online.
I switched back to 4.03 and am waiting patiently for AI changes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vuco1
04-22-2006, 05:14 PM
Well, the way they climb now (especially in 109, but not much difference whit the 190, particularly whit D version), that is pure horror. There is no chance of catching them, since their engines newer tent to overheat.
This is very frustrating since I found that the AI is now more keen on using the "climbing to space". They simply start climbing in large circles, and do that until u get simply sick of following them and eventually brake away.
Another thing, it seams its almost impossible to survive a head to head whit AI on ace.

Ciscobird
04-23-2006, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Vuco1:
Another thing, it seams its almost impossible to survive a head to head whit AI on ace.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif I just head for the Ace AI then at the right moment, just before he fires at me, nose over momentarily (pushing negative g's), once his plane goes over, I pull back up hard, doing an half loop.

Instantly, I'm on his tail ready to chase him. Works everytime. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

lowfighter
04-23-2006, 02:06 AM
Treetop, I did a test yesterday with 4.03 version of the game. Ifly a Bf109F4 against an i16 AI. Starting conditions: both planes at 1000m and 300 Km/h, the i16 on my 6 about 500m behind. I fire the throttle to 110% and go imediately into a mild dive till 20-50 m above ground, and from then I reduce the throttle at about 90% and fly as level as possible. The speed I reach at the end of the dive is about 520-560 Km/h and after a while it drops in level flight to about 480 Km/h where it stays. The result: I easly outrun the AI. To make the test more interesting, after I have sufficient separation I turn sharply and climb a little allowing the AI to get once again close, then I dive again, then I repeat. I haven't "managed" to get killed this way. I've done the test with AI at average and veteran levels. Well, 4.03 rocks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Would be interesting if someone does such "controled" tests in 4.04.

Monson74
04-23-2006, 03:16 AM
Well, there's one good thing about 4.04 AI - they B&Z pretty well now - try 4xYak1 (you) vs 4xBf109F-4 & watch them work on you. But you are right about the lack of overheat & the supernatural moves.

tjaika1910
04-23-2006, 05:03 AM
I think the AI is by no mean too good. Easy targets I think when you get used to them, and no, they cannot follow in a slower plane.

To the original poster, was your plane in 100% condition. The some of the I-16 still have alt advantage, did your evasive manouvers make you loose energy?