PDA

View Full Version : How do you fly a Yak-9 vs a Bf 109-G2?



Woke_Up_Dead
05-15-2009, 05:10 PM
I find this to be an interesting match-up, I usually fly the Yak. The 1942 Yak-9 has a top speed similar to the 109 right up to about 4000m, it does not climb or dive quite as fast, I think it might have an edge in roll rate, and it can turn around quicker (time to complete a circle), but only at higher speeds. Its best speed for turning around is about 350km/h, once it drops below 300 the 109 starts gaining an edge. It can turn just as tight (turn circle radius) as a 109, but it needs to be going faster, pulling more G's, and losing energy to do this.

And so here is my dilemma: my Yak is not fast enough to boom and zoom the 109 the way a P38 could against a Zero for example. If I start turning with him and try keeping it fast (above 350), he can cut the angles off on me. I can't extend away like a 190 either, our speeds are too similar. If I turn tighter to match his angles then I can keep up for a little while but will eventually drop down to speeds that he likes more. I know that historically this was a close match-up, does anyone know what the Soviet Yak pilots did in 1942 vs the 109? Also, does anyone know of a server where good pilots fly mid-war Soviet machines: Yaks, LaGGs, Las and MiGs?

Finally, I know that I can't stop the flying chart monkeys from posting on this thread, but I really would like to concentrate more on tactics than engineering if possible.

Flight_boy1990
05-15-2009, 05:14 PM
"FinskaViken1" server is what you need to look for in the lobby.
The best "Ostfront" dedicated dog.fight server out there.

TinyTim
05-15-2009, 05:37 PM
One of my favourite matchups!

Your observations are spot on. Better roll, similar turn and comparable (maybe even better due to slats) energy retention in a turn all point to the winning tactics: high to medium speed (rolling) scissors.

steiner562
05-15-2009, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:

Finally, I know that I can't stop the flying chart monkeys from posting on this thread, but I really would like to concentrate more on tactics than engineering if possible.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Nearly died laughing thanks for the chuckle. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sillius_Sodus
05-15-2009, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by steiner562:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:

Finally, I know that I can't stop the flying chart monkeys from posting on this thread, but I really would like to concentrate more on tactics than engineering if possible.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Nearly died laughing thanks for the chuckle. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You beat me to it Steiner! *coffee squirting through nose* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Woke_Up_Dead
05-15-2009, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
One of my favourite matchups!

Your observations are spot on. Better roll, similar turn and comparable (maybe even better due to slats) energy retention in a turn all point to the winning tactics: high to medium speed (rolling) scissors.

Thanks, but are you giving me an answer from the 109's or the Yak's point of view? I'm curious about what to do when flying the Yak. I think the Yak retains energy better but it does not have slats. So assuming that you simply made a mistake about the slats and that it is the Yak you're talking about, what should the Yak's goal when doing the scissors vs a 109? Is it to force him out front or is it to drain the 109 of energy and turn around to nail him?

Xiolablu3
05-16-2009, 02:41 AM
Although I havent flown online for a long time apart from UBI Zoo Coops, UKdedicated Servers used to have many maps with these mid-war planesets.

UKDed1 has easy settings, Ukded2 has mid-range, Ukded3 has full realish settings.

JTD used to be an admin there, not sure if he still is?

F16_Neo
05-16-2009, 06:34 AM
One of my favourite matchups!
I have the impression that the Yak retains energy a bit better than the 109 in a continous high-speed turn. Usually (but not always) I can outturn the 109 and get behind him in a few turns, provided that I keep the speed up and the ball centered.
If the 109 pilot keeps the fight vertical, it's a lot more difficult.

Also, the 109 is a lot better high up, so drag him down below 3K before dogfighting if possible.

DKoor
05-16-2009, 07:23 AM
Yak is a good plane, but you will have trouble on arcade servers vs experienced players.
On realistic servers matchup is pretty much equalized...

Mind you Bf-109G2 is a better performing plane, Yak has an edge in agility but only if you really know how to fly it inside out and do not accept energy fight (which you will likely lose).

Personally I have only good things to say about Yak-9 in combat environment, it's a very good plane that can match both contemporary German fighters, FW-190 and Bf-109.
Good all around canopy visibility is just another plus, while lack of proper fuel gauge is very odd minus.
Yak-9D is likely one of the best Yak-9's but be sure to select less fuel to improve performance since this version has longer range.

JtD
05-16-2009, 07:31 AM
Keep turning at your best turn speed, around 340 in clean config and about 310 with combat flaps. Even if the 109 will pull more angles for a few seconds, it cannot maintain it. Sooner or later, most likely sooner, it'll be hanging helplessly in the air without the necessary speed for turning.

@XIo: The mid war Eastern front maps on UKD1 have about disappeared. Seems like I was the only one to like them.

TinyTim
05-16-2009, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
One of my favourite matchups!

Your observations are spot on. Better roll, similar turn and comparable (maybe even better due to slats) energy retention in a turn all point to the winning tactics: high to medium speed (rolling) scissors.

Thanks, but are you giving me an answer from the 109's or the Yak's point of view? I'm curious about what to do when flying the Yak. I think the Yak retains energy better but it does not have slats. So assuming that you simply made a mistake about the slats and that it is the Yak you're talking about, what should the Yak's goal when doing the scissors vs a 109? Is it to force him out front or is it to drain the 109 of energy and turn around to nail him? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, speaking from Yak pilot perspective. In scissor fight Yak is slightly better. Yak also turns very good, but you need to keep the ball centered. At very slow speeds G-2 probably turns a bit better (and is more stable), but drains E like mad, so you know he'll soon be in an E inferior state if his slats pop out and stay out for some time.

Anyway, 109G-2 is better climber, better diver and better altitude performer, so a smart 109 pilot probably won't easily walk into a scissor trap and will keep it in vertical, which makes life much more difficult for a yak driver (as Neo pointed out already).

Player_43
05-16-2009, 07:52 AM
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?

Jaws2002
05-16-2009, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Player_43:
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?


Yes.
This is exactly how this planes are flying and react to pilot imput in the game.

I think is rather hard to beat a G2 in the vanila Yak-9. The G2 holds a solid advantage in vertical and this days, not many 109 pilots will get suckered in extended horizontal turning.

crucislancer
05-16-2009, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Although I havent flown online for a long time apart from UBI Zoo Coops, UKdedicated Servers used to have many maps with these mid-war planesets.

UKDed1 has easy settings, Ukded2 has mid-range, Ukded3 has full realish settings.

JTD used to be an admin there, not sure if he still is?

UKDed 2 has some Yak-9 missions, the last time I played online about 6 weeks ago I had a couple of missions in the Yak-9, followed by one in the Yak-3. Pure Heaven. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
05-16-2009, 10:21 AM
Manage your speed...thats the key in the Yak-9. At medium speeds you can outfly the 109 in roll and turn. Try and force him into the horizontal if you can although you can compete well enough in the vertical that you can at least challenge the 109 here if not best him.

Rolling scissors is the key to defeating the 109. The G-2 is superior but the Yak is close enough to be a solid challenger...enter the fight with advantage in numbers or altitude and use that advantage against him.

SeaFireLIV
05-16-2009, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Player_43:
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?

Yep. why do you think this sim has lasted so long among mature flyers here? This sim is far more intricate and involved than first meets the eye. the longer you play, the more you realise has been modelled in pretty well.

TS_Sancho
05-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Player_43:
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?

Yep. why do you think this sim has lasted so long among mature flyers here? This sim is far more intricate and involved than first meets the eye. the longer you play, the more you realise has been modelled in pretty well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seafire speaks the truth. The aircraft performance and flight modeling in IL2 have proven to be very accurate.

na85
05-16-2009, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Manage your speed...thats the key in the Yak-9. At medium speeds you can outfly the 109 in roll and turn. Try and force him into the horizontal if you can although you can compete well enough in the vertical that you can at least challenge the 109 here if not best him.

Rolling scissors is the key to defeating the 109. The G-2 is superior but the Yak is close enough to be a solid challenger...enter the fight with advantage in numbers or altitude and use that advantage against him.

ROLLING scissors, you say. Interesting.

I was going to suggest a flat scissors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the aircraft with the better sustained climb ability (in this case the 109) has the advantage in a rolling scissors, does it not?

In a flat scissors, as long as the Yak pilot is careful to keep the ball centered, I would expect the yak's superior roll rate to give a small advantage.

In any case, one thing I have learned while flying the yak is that it's EXTREMELY hard to shake a 109 that gets saddled up behind you, so you have to work extra hard in the pre-engagement setup to make sure you have the advantage.

That being said, I'm sure even Hartmann got bounced once in a while. If you find yourself with a 109 on your tail and he's not in gun range yet, then I have found a steep dive to pick up speed followed by an oblique turn works well to shake him. At high speeds you can use your superior elevator authority to pull turns that the 109 can't match and he will shoot right by you.

na85
05-16-2009, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:
"FinskaViken1" server is what you need to look for in the lobby.
The best "Ostfront" dedicated dog.fight server out there.

What are the settings like?

TS_Sancho
05-16-2009, 12:03 PM
If your looking for a magic solution there is none. All things being equal the BF109G2 is the higher performing aircraft however in this statement lies your solution. The Yak needs to be the aggressor in this matchup and needs to initiate the fight with an E advantage. Keep the fight below 5000 meters, if the G2 gains enough seperation to use his superior climbrate quit the fight as you've lost already. Keep the Yak in trim,keep the fight in the vertical and avoid any skidding or high G manuevers. When you get a gun solution make it count as the G2 is more dynamic than the Yak, unless the G2 pilot is inexperienced he's going to be narrowing the gap on every manuever.

Regardless of the aircraft involved the higher, faster aircraft that ID's his adversary first holds all the cards. The whole boom and zoom versus turn fighter philosophy that some preach is flawed, all aircraft combat is an energy fight. The trick is to keep your aircraft in its performance envelope and deny your opponent the opportunity to exploit his.

Spits/109's Mod server just put an early eastern front map in rotation. Emil and Bf109F1/F2 vs. Yak7, Lagg3 and I16. Its an interesting matchup and the pilot quality is such that its not nearly as one sided as it looks on paper.

TS_Sancho
05-16-2009, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Manage your speed...thats the key in the Yak-9. At medium speeds you can outfly the 109 in roll and turn. Try and force him into the horizontal if you can although you can compete well enough in the vertical that you can at least challenge the 109 here if not best him.

Rolling scissors is the key to defeating the 109. The G-2 is superior but the Yak is close enough to be a solid challenger...enter the fight with advantage in numbers or altitude and use that advantage against him.

ROLLING scissors, you say. Interesting.

I was going to suggest a flat scissors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the aircraft with the better sustained climb ability (in this case the 109) has the advantage in a rolling scissors, does it not?

In a flat scissors, as long as the Yak pilot is careful to keep the ball centered, I would expect the yak's superior roll rate to give a small advantage.

In any case, one thing I have learned while flying the yak is that it's EXTREMELY hard to shake a 109 that gets saddled up behind you, so you have to work extra hard in the pre-engagement setup to make sure you have the advantage.

That being said, I'm sure even Hartmann got bounced once in a while. If you find yourself with a 109 on your tail and he's not in gun range yet, then I have found a steep dive to pick up speed followed by an oblique turn works well to shake him. At high speeds you can use your superior elevator authority to pull turns that the 109 can't match and he will shoot right by you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The whole point of the scissors manuever is to gain an energy advantage against an opponent on your 6 while forcing an overshoot. Without the vertical component scissors is worthless. The aircraft with the superior roll rate has an advantage, superior climb only in that better climb usually means better acceleration.

Xiolablu3
05-16-2009, 03:06 PM
I must say I htink the Bf109 holds most of the cards here, at least for me as a pilot.

IMO its much harder to win in a Yak vs a 109G2 or even F4. Give me the 109 every time if I have a choice. I have never been fond of Yaks unless its 1941 and you have the Yak1 or 1B as compared to the other 1941 planes its a step forward (i153/i16/lagg3). Of course the Yak3 is also nice. But the 1942-43 'mid rangers' like the Yak-9 and 9D never grabbed me.

I would much rather take an La5 up vs a 109 than a Yak.

Kettenhunde
05-16-2009, 09:37 PM
I really would like to concentrate more on tactics than engineering if possible.


You understand the engineering determines the tactics? There is a connection here.

All the best,

Crumpp

JtD
05-16-2009, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I must say I htink the Bf109 holds most of the cards here, at least for me as a pilot.

IMO its much harder to win in a Yak vs a 109G2 or even F4. Give me the 109 every time if I have a choice. I have never been fond of Yaks unless its 1941 and you have the Yak1 or 1B as compared to the other 1941 planes its a step forward (i153/i16/lagg3). Of course the Yak3 is also nice. But the 1942-43 'mid rangers' like the Yak-9 and 9D never grabbed me.

I would much rather take an La5 up vs a 109 than a Yak.

This is a vicious circle. The Yak handles very differently from the majority of other planes, because the prop goes the other way round. For folks who fly a lot of planes and rarely the Yak it is so unusual, that they fail to get the most out of the aircraft. For this reason, they avoid it. So they get worse with it.
Throughout the war, the Yaks are fairly evenly matched against the 109, except for 1941 and early 1942 if/when you have to take on the F-4/G-2 in the -1 and -7 models.

VW-IceFire
05-17-2009, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I must say I htink the Bf109 holds most of the cards here, at least for me as a pilot.

IMO its much harder to win in a Yak vs a 109G2 or even F4. Give me the 109 every time if I have a choice. I have never been fond of Yaks unless its 1941 and you have the Yak1 or 1B as compared to the other 1941 planes its a step forward (i153/i16/lagg3). Of course the Yak3 is also nice. But the 1942-43 'mid rangers' like the Yak-9 and 9D never grabbed me.

I would much rather take an La5 up vs a 109 than a Yak.

This is a vicious circle. The Yak handles very differently from the majority of other planes, because the prop goes the other way round. For folks who fly a lot of planes and rarely the Yak it is so unusual, that they fail to get the most out of the aircraft. For this reason, they avoid it. So they get worse with it.
Throughout the war, the Yaks are fairly evenly matched against the 109, except for 1941 and early 1942 if/when you have to take on the F-4/G-2 in the -1 and -7 models. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep...although I have to say that the torque in either direction doesn't bother me. The Yak's are very competitive...but most people haven't spent any time flying them so they don't get much out of them. The Yak-9 is probably the best balanced of the family with a high roll rate, excellent turn rate, climb being decent, and firepower being adequate. It can compete with a 109 well enough that if you can get in close you can be fairly confident of being able to win a fight. The La-5 I find is more docile...even the La-7 doesn't have the responsiveness of the Yak family. In a Yak you can change directions quickly where as in the La series its slower to respond. For some this is not a problem...but I like to have rapid response. In some ways the Yak behaves a bit like a FW190. Its touchy and you have to work with that.

Advantage is key as the Yak needs more speed to be most effective in its manuevering. And yes na85 I do mean rolling scissors although flat scissors works as well. I've won enough rolling scissors battles in Yak's to feel fairly confident in being able to say that. It can go badly really quickly so you have to use the roll rate to your advantage while the speeds are still higher. If the speed drops off...then you're in trouble. But in the short term there isn't enough difference beween the G-2 and a Yak-9 for the G-2 to be able to easily win such a move.

Still the best way for me to get kills in a Yak is for the 109 or 190 to go into a turn enough for me to put some 20mm into their engine. Thats all I need. Leave him to crash a few minutes later on and work on the next target.

Xiolablu3
05-17-2009, 07:29 AM
You know, I still often get outturned by Bf109's in a Yak.

I guess I have spent so much time 'not turning' that I have forgotten how to 'ride the stall'

JtD
05-17-2009, 08:07 AM
You must not ride the stall in the Yak. You have to turn at 350-300. Any slower than that, and the Bf starts to gain on you.

VW-IceFire
05-17-2009, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You know, I still often get outturned by Bf109's in a Yak.

I guess I have spent so much time 'not turning' that I have forgotten how to 'ride the stall'
If you get slow then the 109 has the advantage...the slats open and that 109 is nice and stable flying around at low speeds. With the Yak you have to out turn them at higher speeds. Its not as extreme as a FW190 but its the same idea...an FW190 would out turn other fighters....but at high speed only. For the Yak its in between.

Do not ride the stall in the Yak...stay around 350kph where most of the Yak series are happy. You can feel it in the controls actually...at the best speed the Yak is very light and responsive. Too slow or too fast and its more sluggish.

TinyTim
05-17-2009, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Yak1 or 1B as compared to the other 1941 planes

Actually, Yak-1B is a 1943 plane, entered service in 1943 and was historically used along the heavier Yak-9 versus 109G and 190A-4/5. (540kph, which Yak-1B manages at the deck would be pretty uber for 1941)

Yak-9 was not an evolution of a Yak-1B, they were developed in paralel. Yak-1B was a light, and -9 was a heavy version of yak fighters. The two lines follow as this:

Light fighters: Yak-1 -> Yak-1B -> Yak-3
Heavy fighters: Yak-7 -> Yak-9 -> Yak-9U

Of course here "heavy fighter" must be understood in a non-traditional sense of the term.


Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If you get slow then the 109 has the advantage...the slats open and that 109 is nice and stable flying around at low speeds.

That's true, but not for long. When riding on the edge it bleeds as hell, so it will find itself in an E inferor state soon. However, good acceleration and excellent climb enable it to recover the lost E quickly.

JtD
05-18-2009, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If you get slow then the 109 has the advantage...the slats open and that 109 is nice and stable flying around at low speeds.

That's true, but not for long. When riding on the edge it bleeds as hell, so it will find itself in an E inferor state soon. However, good acceleration and excellent climb enable it to recover the lost E quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take note that Ice said the Yak's going slow as well, not just the 109. Yak's bleed more at slow speed turns.

VW-IceFire
05-18-2009, 09:28 AM
Which is why I like to let the 109s do all the low speed fancy flying and I just keep building speed back in this scenario. If I can afford it.

Note on Yak development. The Yak-1 was developed into the cutdown Yak-1B, through several prototype stages that failed, and ultimately into the Yak-3. The Yak-7 was developed originally as a two seat trainer but its larger size and robust construction lead to the development of refined Yak-7 models culminating in the Yak-9 (and all sub models) and Yak-9U.

The Yak-1B showed up on the front in late 1942 and right after in the first days of 1943 the first Yak-9s began to arrive. Until that point the Yak fighters that held the line were the Yak-7A, Yak-7B, and Yak-1. All of those were inferior to the 109F-2 and F-4 not to mention G-2. Also worth mentioning is that some Yak-7B's featured the cutdown fuselage of the Yak-9 and are difficult to tell apart.

Player_43
05-18-2009, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Player_43:
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?


Yes.
This is exactly how this planes are flying and react to pilot imput in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you tell ? Did you try the real ones ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Player_43
05-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Player_43:
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?

Yep. why do you think this sim has lasted so long among mature flyers here? This sim is far more intricate and involved than first meets the eye. the longer you play, the more you realise has been modelled in pretty well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your point of comparison to say that ?

When I saw that IL2 wasn't even able to model a correct top speed for most of planes (take the example of the P38 or the tempest ...) I fear the worst for more sophisticated flight parameters.

I average I guess that it's OK but not enough to allow to compare very subtile flight caracteristics between the 109 and the Yak ...

VW-IceFire
05-18-2009, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Player_43:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Player_43:
Do you guy's really think that the IL2 flight dynamics are accurate enough to include all these subtle flight parameters and aerodynamic effects that you are talking about ?

Yep. why do you think this sim has lasted so long among mature flyers here? This sim is far more intricate and involved than first meets the eye. the longer you play, the more you realise has been modelled in pretty well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your point of comparison to say that ?

When I saw that IL2 wasn't even able to model a correct top speed for most of planes (take the example of the P38 or the tempest ...) I fear the worst for more sophisticated flight parameters.

I average I guess that it's OK but not enough to allow to compare very subtile flight caracteristics between the 109 and the Yak ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How does not having the Tempests top speed not exactly match a graph mean that there aren't subtle flight characteristics between (or within) types that can be examined and exploited?

There are subtle (and not so subtle) differences between a Yak-9 and a Bf109G-2. How it handles in a turn, in a climb, in a turn to the left versus a turn to the right, at stall speed, at medium speed, at altitude, etc. Discussion of these can be useful...and can certainly be exploited against the AI or online against human opponents.

TheGozr
05-19-2009, 07:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLQKtkTik_I

Here my mod for all yak's
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp344/GOZR/ya9Pitpic.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfQv58Z9jRs

Just go to my site and look for it.

Xiolablu3
05-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Yak1 or 1B as compared to the other 1941 planes

Actually, Yak-1B is a 1943 plane, entered service in 1943 and was historically used along the heavier Yak-9 versus 109G and 190A-4/5. (540kph, which Yak-1B manages at the deck would be pretty uber for 1941)

Yak-9 was not an evolution of a Yak-1B, they were developed in paralel. Yak-1B was a light, and -9 was a heavy version of yak fighters. The two lines follow as this:

Light fighters: Yak-1 -> Yak-1B -> Yak-3
Heavy fighters: Yak-7 -> Yak-9 -> Yak-9U

Of course here "heavy fighter" must be understood in a non-traditional sense of the term.


Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If you get slow then the 109 has the advantage...the slats open and that 109 is nice and stable flying around at low speeds.

That's true, but not for long. When riding on the edge it bleeds as hell, so it will find itself in an E inferor state soon. However, good acceleration and excellent climb enable it to recover the lost E quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, TT, do you remember when you shot me down in a Yak1 and me in a 109F4 after a long dogfight?

I had a large height advantage, but just could not hit you...

I got the 'mission loading' screen just as your bullets hit me, but to be honest you had turned the tables on me before that happened!


It may have been a Lagg3 that you were in, I cant quite remember, but I think it was a Yak.

na85
05-21-2009, 10:59 PM
Well since hyperlobby has no full real eastern front servers that I could find (yes I know spits/109s runs ostfront maps now and then but I didn't feel like waiting 9 hours to fly a yak) I decided to beat up some Bf109G-2's in QMB for a couple of hours.

At first I either got killed or ran out of ammo but then I started to win.

For me to achieve success it was necessary to:

-get familiar with the guns (big one)
-use nose-to-nose turns to decrease separation at every opportunity and get in nice and close
-fight mostly in the vertical, but also to use flat scissors and other horizontal tactics if necessary or appropriate
-keep the speed above 350kph (although I broke this rule a few times when it gave me a good shot as he hung himself up at the top of a loop)

Making nose-to-nose turns instead of nose to tail was a good choice. The good visibility and instantaneous turn performance mean you can get in real close and make your shots really hurt. From far out I found I was having trouble hitting (except for a couple of times- read on)

Fighting in the vertical worked reasonably well and kept the 109 from simply BnZing me to death since he could not really get away despite his considerable climb advantage (we started co-alt each time). Most of my shots were made either diving down onto him or climbing up into him, rarely from anywhere on the ecliptic unless he was banked. I found that if we got into some sort of rolling scissors or something I would lose the advantage (or lose parity) after about 4 or 5 cycles. I think a human pilot would have got the advantage over me much sooner. The AI just isn't as good as a human.

It was necessary to fight in the horizontal more than once however. A few times we found ourselves clipping grass and, unwilling to give him breathing room to climb out and get above me, I pressed the attack. He attempted to initiate a scissors and I played his game, being sure to keep the speed above 350 ish. I won nearly all of the scissors fights but my crappy gunnery meant I had to stay in there and fight longer than I should have. If I were flying a 190 this engagement would have lasted 10 seconds.

Until now I'd always been getting advice like "keep it fast and the yak can out turn the 109" and never really understood what that meant. After one particular merge I found myself low over the trees with the 109 directly at my 3 o'clock, heading the other way, between 500 and 300 meters distant. I was doing about 400 kph so I pulled into a right hand bank and went a bit nose low, this time really trying to stay above 360 kph. In less than a full revolution I was in guns range and he broke out of the circle hoping to extend.

I set my convergence in the Yak to 300 meters and found this worked quite well. I hit a couple of really nice deflection shots at high speed and close range with the ShVAK, and sniped a wing off with the ShVAK as well at medium range.

With the UBS autocannon I was able to smoke the 109's engine (the UBS has FANTASTIC hitting power) from something like half a kilometer away in one of those "use the force" moments. It just felt right so I pulled the trigger and was rewarded with a nice trail of smoke.

I do think I need to adjust my stick profile though. My nose is real wobbly when I zoom in and try to be precise (and you DO need to be a friggin surgeon with the yak's weaponry). Can anyone suggest a good profile for the Logitech 3D pro?

Couple of final notes for aspiring yak pilots:

I did a couple of sorties flying the G-2 against the yak 9 and found it suprisingly difficult at low altitude if the yak kept his speed up. Most sorties ended in one of two ways:

1) I got my guns on him in a loop and the easy-to-aim MG151/20 made quick work of his wing.

2) He denied me a shot and got out of guns range long enough to extend away. At altitudes below, say, 4000m the speed difference between the aircraft favors the 109 by only a small amount, and the yak seems to accelerate better, so it ended up being a stalemate as I tried in vain to snipe him with the MG131's in the nose (or are they MG17?)

-On summer maps the 109 is easier to pick out against the trees than the yak. Significantly so. On full switch servers this is a useable advantage, especially considering the excellent all around visibility in the yak compared to the 109G-2.

-The 109's level-of-detail modeling makes it easier to pick out at long distances than the Yak (at least on my machine). Especially if you are silhouetted against the trees, in a yak there is a good chance he might miss you.

When flying the 109, more than once the Yak was able to shake me easily by entering a corkscrew straight down. The 109's awful elevator response at speed means he pulled out easily and had leveled and was extending away while I was still tugging on the elevators. If you find yourself in trouble keep this one in mind.

Odemkirtariy
05-22-2009, 06:53 AM
...Can anyone suggest a good profile for the Logitech 3D pro?...

I am glad someone poses this question today... I have a 3d pro too, but I'm not familiar with tuning the joystick. This 3d pro is very comfertable, but the slightest move results into signal input. So I've tuned it a little bit, but it would be nice if someone with thesame expierience could inform about possible optimal configurations.

crucislancer
05-22-2009, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Odemkirtariy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Can anyone suggest a good profile for the Logitech 3D pro?...

I am glad someone poses this question today... I have a 3d pro too, but I'm not familiar with tuning the joystick. This 3d pro is very comfortable, but the slightest move results into signal input. So I've tuned it a little bit, but it would be nice if someone with thesame expierience could inform about possible optimal configurations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to use one, and it took a lot of work to get something that was comfortable. I use JoyControl, which really helps with fine tuning stick settings.

IIRC, I started the sensitivity at 0, the on up to 100 with a curve. JoyControl can set that for you in a couple of seconds. Also, there was a touch of dead zone to compensate for the fact that the stick was 7 years old and well used. The rudder was set at 0 and from there until about 3/4 of the way up it would slowly go up to around 50, then a more sudden spike to 100 at the end.

When flying the Yak you absolutely need precise control, and I never felt that the Logitech stick provided that. Work with trim constantly (recommended at any time but especially with this stick) to get the fine tuning you need for gunnery.

Woke_Up_Dead
05-22-2009, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by na85:
Well since hyperlobby has no full real eastern front servers that I could find (yes I know spits/109s runs ostfront maps now and then but I didn't feel like waiting 9 hours to fly a yak) I decided to beat up some Bf109G-2's in QMB for a couple of hours.


At first I either got killed or ran out of ammo but then I started to win.

For me to achieve success it was necessary to:

-get familiar with the guns (big one)
-use nose-to-nose turns to decrease separation at every opportunity and get in nice and close
-fight mostly in the vertical, but also to use flat scissors and other horizontal tactics if necessary or appropriate
-keep the speed above 350kph (although I broke this rule a few times when it gave me a good shot as he hung himself up at the top of a loop)

Making nose-to-nose turns instead of nose to tail was a good choice. The good visibility and instantaneous turn performance mean you can get in real close and make your shots really hurt. From far out I found I was having trouble hitting (except for a couple of times- read on)

[...]


Good post na85, other people have also given me good advice here, thanks. A question and an observation: what do you mean by "nose to nose" turns? And I think you will experience more of those "use the force" moments for long range shots with the Yaks, their nose mounted guns are great. When I fly the Yak-3, 3P, or 9U in later war maps I can consistently get hits when I'm 600m behind a target who's trying to extend in a straight line. It's a little tougher with the Yak-9 from 1942 since it's not as well armed and perhaps a little less stable, but it's still definitely a sniper.

na85
05-22-2009, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:

Good post na85, other people have also given me good advice here, thanks.

No problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's good to see more interest in the Yakovlev series, which are my favorite aircraft.


what do you mean by "nose to nose" turns?

Nose-to-nose and nose-to-tail are terms that describe in relative terms the geometry of two aircraft after a forward-quarter pass.

Let me see if I can illustrate it with an example:

You are flying straight and level in your yak, and you see a 109 that is coming towards you from the front quarter. Let's say he whizzes by you and passes on your right side (3 o'clock). As he passes by you follow him with your eyes and note that he turns towards you after the merge. I.e. he's turning to his right. You have two choices:

1) Turn right. In this case you will be pulling towards the target's original flight path, and flying towards where the target has just been (i.e. his tail). This would be a nose-to-tail turn.

2) Turn left. In this case you will actually be turning away from the target's original flight path and towards where the target is about to be (i.e. his nose). This would be a nose-to-nose turn.

It sounds complicated but I'm sure you've done these things without even thinking about them.

In general: If you and your target pass each other and turn towards each other, that is a nose to tail situation. If you and your target pass and then one of you turns away, it's a nose-to-nose situation.

It's hard to describe in just text, with no diagrams.

The difference between the two geometries is that in general the nose-to-nose turn tends to decrease separation between aircraft and the nose-to-tail tends to increase it. A flat scissors:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Flats.png

Is really just a series of nose-to-nose turns.

Hope that helps. If you can, I would recommend the book Fighter Combat by Robert L Shaw. It's excellent and discusses all aspects of aerial combat. I've found my copy to be quite helpful.

EDIT: I found a link to Shaw's book that discusses this stuff. It's figure 2-11.

http://books.google.ca/books?i...lt&resnum=1#PPA78,M1 (http://books.google.ca/books?id=hBxBdKr0beYC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=%22nose+to+nose%22+turns&source=bl&ots=9qbmZHfKGk&sig=09RYXQQ5Gywn-5ncl9Lg1IX8Xns&hl=en&ei=cgcXSoexAtLEmQebz_jzDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA78,M1)


And I think you will experience more of those "use the force" moments for long range shots with the Yaks, their nose mounted guns are great. When I fly the Yak-3, 3P, or 9U in later war maps I can consistently get hits when I'm 600m behind a target who's trying to extend in a straight line. It's a little tougher with the Yak-9 from 1942 since it's not as well armed and perhaps a little less stable, but it's still definitely a sniper.

Definitely. However I don't think the Yak-1b or any of the 9's are underarmed. In fact I have de-winged FW190's with only the single UBS autocannon in the nose of the Yak 9's. Flying the 7 or the 3 and having 2 guns plus the cannon feels luxurious http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EDIT #2: Keep also in mind that "nose-to-nose" and "nose-to-tail" are presented here as horizontal turns, but you can just as easily do the same thing in the vertical or any oblique plane.