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dwieser
09-09-2007, 02:20 PM
i was watching dogfights on history channel
the no room for error episode when jim kessler and his wingman in there f-86's were attacking the 3 migs at treetop level and they droped in behind the lead mig ,shot him down and his wingman got number 2 mig then they had the 3rd mig in perfect firing position OK So my question is why didnt they drop in behind the third mig right away so they didnt have to deal with him last

Skycat_2
09-09-2007, 03:06 PM
I'm guessing that #3 was likely the least experienced and therefore his job was to 1) learn the ropes by following the leader's orders explicitly; and 2) get shot at first when attacked from the rear, thereby increasing the liklihood that #1 and #2 would get enough warning to evade and counter. On the other hand, if the leader and #2 are dead, #3 is now facing two opponents alone. If he is truly inexeperienced he's going to panic and be an even easier target.

The Sabre pilots probably took all of this into account when they made their attack.

Zeus-cat
09-09-2007, 04:21 PM
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shahram177
09-10-2007, 02:13 PM
Same thing I thought of.
when I'm high and see three guys in a row i start at the back and move forward.
Dive down and walk my way up! Allways works!
Now why he didn't I don't know.

K_Freddie
09-11-2007, 12:46 AM
Online when attacking a group of more than one.. I nearly always attack the rear guy with a one shot burst either damaging him or shooting him down.

Then it onto the next one with the same tactic, and if there are more than 3 then I beat it outa there.

If there is a third one then its a DF with that one, depending on how damaged the other 2 are, coz if they're damaged enough they'll have a problem keeping up.

Or I'd just get stuck into the whole lot for fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

K_Freddie
09-11-2007, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Skycat_2:
I'm guessing that #3 was likely the least experienced and therefore his job was to 1) learn the ropes by following the leader's orders explicitly; and 2) get shot at first when attacked from the rear, thereby increasing the liklihood that #1 and #2 would get enough warning to evade and counter. On the other hand, if the leader and #2 are dead, #3 is now facing two opponents alone. If he is truly inexeperienced he's going to panic and be an even easier target.

I vaguely remember from luftwaffe info that either the squad leader or his 2IC would fly in position #4 with the newbees in positions #2 & #3. This would make it more difficult for them to be bounced and easier for the OC to control the situation.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Skycat_2
09-11-2007, 07:27 PM
Is this the incident you mean?

The 4th FIW Sabres took off and headed for MiG Alley, over the Yalu. Certain that the MiGs were there, descending towards Antung, Jim Kasler punched off his drop tanks and dove toward the Communist air base. He and Smiley caught the MiGs just as they were about to land. "Kas" got behind the lead MiG, opened up, and his gunfire tore it apart. its canopy gone, its pilot engulfed in fire, the MiG arched down in a flaming trail. Another MiG threatened Smiley (who had just torched one of his own), and Kasler called for him to break.

Kasler chased a MiG for about 50 miles on the deck, refusing flight commander Phil "Casey" Colman's entreaties to call it a day. The MiG pulled an Immelmann, but Kasler caught him with a burst when he started down. The MiG splattered in the mud flats just below, and Kasler pulled back on the stick mightily, to avoid sharing his victim's fate. He cleared and called triumphantly to Colman, "Casey, I'm an ace."

Other than this passage and the original poster's query, I don't know the specifics of the incident. Was the #3 MiG at a lower altitude than the others, perhaps descending for his final approach? Were the three MiGs in an echelon formation or a 'vee' formation? (I think it was highly unlikely that that #2 and #3 were line astern behind #1, thus ripe for the Sabres to dive in and 'walk' bullets from back to front.)

I doubt that if the MiGs were on a combat mission it would have been reasonable to assume that #3 was the leader. I'm not versed on Luftwaffe 'order of battle' so I won't argue what you think you recall about German WWII combat formations. Either way, regardless of whether the MiGs were flown by Chinese Communists, North Koreans or Russian Soviets, they were certainly not being led by Adolf Galland or Erich Hartmann. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Let's look at the memoirs of Robert Smith, a Sabre pilot who flew in Korea under Francis Gabreski (the famed WWII Thunderbolt ace) :
"Shortly after my arrival, Gabby flew the first F-86E to arrive on base in simulated combat over the field against an F-86A and whipped the other guy badly, with every Sabre jock on the base as witness. After he landed he briefed all pilots and announced that the limited number of E's would be reserved for flight leaders. I never forgot his response, when someone asked about the problem of wingmen staying with leaders. He replied "Wingmen are to absorb firepower" and I never knew him well enough to judge whether he had a dry sense of humor, but he made the right choice."

So even within what was probably the best trained air force in the world--representing a democratic nation that believes in the equality of all men--it was understood that the primary job of lower ranking, less experienced pilots was to shield their superiors from attack.

dwieser
09-13-2007, 04:41 PM
Hi
Yes thats the one Skycat_2
They were all 3 landing so why did they go for the first 2 migs cause by the time Kasler shot that first mig and told Smiley to break !Smiley was already taking hits from that 3rd mig it could have ended different,They were lucky ,
Anyway thanks for your input cause i was just having trouble figuring out that strategy