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View Full Version : Hitler's visit to Finland in '42 very interesting



ForkTailedDevil
09-13-2005, 12:25 PM
In June '42 Hitler visted Finland very intersting hope link works.
http://www.stonyroad.de/forum/showthread.php?t=3060

Saunders1953
09-13-2005, 01:05 PM
Wow, great find! Can't wait to hear the recording tonight after work. Thanks!

Kuna15
09-13-2005, 01:07 PM
Link works. Thanks I found it very interesting read.

35,000 tanks... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-13-2005, 01:34 PM
Interesting, especially the part about Bruno Ganz studying the recording - have yet to see his performance. Thanks for sharing.

|CoB|_Spectre
09-13-2005, 02:21 PM
This is precisely the kind of gem that makes these forums worthwhile. In the midst of all the chatter and opinions about this FM or that performance specification, someone comes up with a tidbit of historical significance that serves to enlighten. Thanks for posting it.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 08:29 PM
* thump *

Good link indeed.

About (wild guess) 5,000 of those tanks were operational. Most were not. This makes an intersting psycho study of defensive deception. Hitler is lying through his teeth about not knowing Soviet numbers before the war, but by 1942 cannot admit that Soviet resistance turned out to be more than he expected back in 1941.

ForkTailedDevil
09-13-2005, 10:52 PM
It makes me wish I spoke German or Finnish.

ustahl
09-13-2005, 11:58 PM
It makes me wish I spoke German or Finnish.

I'm fortunate to speak both languages 100%, and must confirm the whole tape is highly interesting, especially hearing/understandig those unique historical voices instead of just reading transcripts.

Cheers

alert_1
09-14-2005, 01:25 AM
"I always feared - that Russia suddenly would attack Romania in the late fall - and occupy the petroleum wells, and we would have not been ready in the late fall of 1940. If Russia indeed had taken Romanian petroleum wells, than Germany would have been lost. It would have required - just 60 Russian divisions to handle that matter."
Interesting - Hitler really feared that he had no time and must attack as soon as possible..

woofiedog
09-14-2005, 02:19 AM
Excellent article... the views and insight is very interesting.
Thank's

Pirschjaeger
09-14-2005, 04:02 AM
It's always nice to see a little truth come to light. Whether Russia would attack Romania or not is not really known, but it was obvious that Hitler believed it to be a threat.

It was also interesting that Russia was making demands upon Germany that was more than the Germans wanted to accept, even if it meant war. I wish I knew what those demands were. Anyone know?

Fritz

alert_1
09-14-2005, 06:41 AM
It was also interesting that Russia was making demands upon Germany that was more than the Germans wanted to accept, even if it meant war. I wish I knew what those demands were.
I like to know too, it would be very interesting!

BSS_Goat
09-14-2005, 07:10 AM
Great read!! Thanks for the link.

StellarRat
09-14-2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by ustahl:
I'm fortunate to speak both languages 100%, and must confirm the whole tape is highly interesting, especially hearing/understandig those unique historical voices instead of just reading transcripts.
Cheers

Wow! You at least can read and write English too! Hats off to you! I was born in the US, but my mother is German and my Dad Spanish. I could have been tri-lingual, but my parents decided that teaching me three languages would have been too confusing! They regret their decision now and so do I. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-14-2005, 11:48 AM
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1941/410622a.html

Might be of interest.

Edbert
09-14-2005, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by ustahl:
I'm fortunate to speak both languages 100%, and must confirm the whole tape is highly interesting, especially hearing/understandig those unique historical voices instead of just reading transcripts.
Agreed, but a transcript would be nice for those of us who are not bilingual...hint hint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vike
09-14-2005, 12:56 PM
Awesome! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Thanks for these infos!

Pirschjaeger
09-14-2005, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by alert_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was also interesting that Russia was making demands upon Germany that was more than the Germans wanted to accept, even if it meant war. I wish I knew what those demands were.
I like to know too, it would be very interesting! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, think I'll pm Luftwaffe_109. He usually knows about stuff like this.

Fritz

blakduk
09-14-2005, 10:53 PM
Great post guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Of course this is Hitler's 'spin' on events and his rationale for the actions he took, but quite candid nonetheless. He is of course playing politics to the Finns that he is their best friend and all his actions are in the Finns interests.
Its also noteworthy how the Germans recognised the limitations of their equipment- how it was primarily designed to fight a summer campaign in the west. Once they were committed to battle in the east they struggled to adapt
Its also very interesting to see the influence the North Africa campaign had on the wider strategy, diverting wermacht resources at a crucial time.
I too would like to know what the 'demands' were that the Russians apparently put on the Germans. From the information i have read previously i understood the Germans were doing very well out of the non-aggression pact, including gaining raw materials and oil from them. One of the ironies was that once they attacked the USSR they had to quickly make up for the materials they were no longer receiving.
Once again, thanks for the link. This is the sort of stuff that keeps me coming back.

Aimosika
09-15-2005, 02:11 AM
Except this recording was not made by mistake, it was made by Finnish intellegence service...

Pirschjaeger
09-15-2005, 03:09 AM
It's hard to tell what was going on behind the scenes in politics. Especially 60+ years after the fact when all you have to rely on is rewritten history. Who and what can you trust really? Whether it be the holocaust or the bombing of Dresden, we know these actually did happen, but the details and the numbers are usually questionable.

We all have the right to question the historians and books but at the cost of being called a revisionist or Nazi. We see this situation all through history, especially dealing with religions. Does this mean, like religion, a certain amount of faith is needed for history?

Not in my book. I have found that the history of WW2 is too cut and dried, too black and white. When you watch a Chinese documentary on WW2 in the west you get a completely different picture.

Anyways, after reading the transcript and thinking a while I had this thought. What if Russia was putting pressure on Germany. What if the recording hadn't really stopped where it did, and the recording has been edited for us, the sheep? It seems strange to me that the Finnish intellegence would have run out of tape, minutes into a conversation with such high ranking people. I wouldn't call that intellegence.

Could this be one of the reasons the US waited so long to join the war? If Japan hadn't bombed Pearl Harbour, would the Americans have join so quickly? Is it possible that the Americans saw two equal evils and had to let the match go until they could choose the lesser of those two evils?

Sorry to those that will label me for my questions, but, I just don't view history with faith.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
09-15-2005, 03:20 AM
Here's a very odd but honest question. Were the German historians free to write about the history of WW2 immediately after the war? Did they have to have special permission to publish their works?

I have seen the teachings of WW2 history in German schools. Many of you guyz would be amazed to read it, some would be annoyed and some would laugh. In Germany, most students must study WW2 for 2 years. In the east they had to study how the glorious communists saved them for more than two years.

Back to my question, does anyone have an answer for this?

Fritz

GerritJ9
09-15-2005, 05:12 AM
My references are at home (at work now), but if I remember correctly Molotov demanded, among other things, control over the Dardanelles during his visit to Berlin in late 1940, which would have given the Soviet Black Sea Fleet unrestricted access to the Mediterranean. Bit hazy on other demands made by Molotov at the moment.

JG52-6High
09-15-2005, 02:04 PM
On the taping question: "if it hadn't been for an accident, that 11 minutes of their private conversation had accidentally been taped by a Finnish radio engineer. He had been on hand for their meeting to record their comments for public broadcasts, and had accidentally left his recording machine running. That recording was in the Finnish Broadcasting Corporation's archives and had survived until being recently released for use by historians ."


6

Insuber
09-15-2005, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by alert_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was also interesting that Russia was making demands upon Germany that was more than the Germans wanted to accept, even if it meant war. I wish I knew what those demands were.
I like to know too, it would be very interesting! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



There are many Russian reports of the three main diplomatic missions to Berlin, in Fall 1939 and March and November 1940. Hitler refers in his conversation to the visit of Molotov's delegation in November 1940, in which also the plane designer A.S. Yakovlev took part, together with Polikarpov and other aviation leaders.
The meetings of Molotov and Hitler in Nov 1940 were held in the Reichskanzlerei, and Molotov main political issues regarded Romania (a military German mission sent to Romania without Russian permission) and Finland (German troops sent to Finland without informing Russia and in violation of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact). Molotov essentially wanted Hitler to:

a) remove immediately German troops from Finland.
b) cancel the treaty of Italy and Germany which granted protection to Romania, that Stalin considered as a direct menace to URSS interests

Other issues concerned the status of Turkey and Bulgaria, with Ribbentrop threatening to sign a treaty with zar Boris of Bulgaria similar the the one of Romania with Italy and Germany.

Apart from discussing the respective areas of influence, with Hitler describing the "new world order" - ruled by Italy and Germany in Europe and Africa, and by Japan in the South East Asia - and proposing to the URSS to share as good friends the rests of the British Empire with the concession of southern areas up to the Indian Ocean, it is interesting to know that one of the requests of the Russian negotiators concerned modern military technology and weapons supplies. The Molotov-Ribbentrop non-agression pact included commercial agreements to exchange German machinery and weapons (including planes) with Russian raw materials.German authorities brought their Russian counterparts to visit modern plane factories, gave demonstrations of their latest military technology, and finally delivered also some weapons in June 1940 (including five Me-109, two Ju-88, two Do-215, and one He-100), but the whole German game was to gain time and prepare for the final war with the URSS.

Regards,
Insuber

alert_1
09-16-2005, 01:01 AM
Wow! Ju88, Do215, He100, the top notch technology in june 1940 (only Fw190 prototype missing..)? Hmmm...

gorillasika
09-16-2005, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by JG52-6High:
On the taping question: "if it hadn't been for an accident, that 11 minutes of their private conversation had accidentally been taped by a Finnish radio engineer. He had been on hand for their meeting to record their comments for public broadcasts, and had accidentally left his recording machine running. That recording was in the Finnish Broadcasting Corporation's archives and had survived until being recently released for use by historians ."


In the beginning of the tape a Finnish broadcaster says that the conversation was taking plays in a train car which wasn't prepared for recording. Some windows happened to be open though, so an engineer Tor Damen (sp?) could throw a microphone on one of the shelves, which was covered with decorations. That's how the recording could take place untill some Germans noticed what was happening.

Heliopause
09-16-2005, 03:52 AM
While the attack on the west was carried out by germany ( on Holland, Belgium, France ) their war-machine ran on Russian oil. As Russia and Germany were neighbours (Poland conquered) the exhanges took place at the border. Oil was pumped from Russian traincarriages into German traincarriages. ( Russia's railway had a smaller gauge so they couldn,t drive straight through).

alert_1
09-16-2005, 04:04 AM
( Russia's railway had a smaller gauge so they couldn,t drive straight through).
Actually Russia's railway was broader then in most countries in Europe (exceluding Spain). European common gauge=1435mm, USSR/Spain=1534 or something like that.

Insuber
09-16-2005, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
Wow! Ju88, Do215, He100, the top notch technology in june 1940 (only Fw190 prototype missing..)? Hmmm...

Right! Exactly the same comment of Yakovlev, which sounds like "it was proven later that the Nazi's actually delivered us their very latest plane models, except for the FW-190, developed later, which however didn't perform as expected by the Germans. Anyway at that time we already had our modern planes, Yak, Pe2, Il2, Lagg". Interesting, isn'it?

Regards,
Insuber

Luftwaffe_109
09-17-2005, 08:38 PM
Hello all.

Firstly, excellent link, I found it most interesting!

Regarding the meeting held between Molotov and the Reich government, Insuber is correct as to its details.

The Soviet Union had invaded Rumania in the summer of 1940, annexing the areas of Northern Bukovina and Bessarabia. This had caused Rumania to turn to Germany, and at the end of August 1940 they had signed the second Vienna Arbitration where Germany had guaranteed the status-quo of Rumanian frontiers.

Rumania had had a terrible year in 1940. She had lost the vital region of Transylvania to Hungary and had lost the eastern provinces of Besserabia and Bukovina to the Soviet Union. Rumania found herself surrounded by enemies and was highly suspicious of her neighbors (recall that during the Munich Crisis she had absolutely refused Soviet offers to go the Czechs aid by marching through Rumania because of the high suspicion that she harbored for the USSR).

The €œlittle entent€ (a defensive alliance between Rumaniaa, Czechoslavakia and Yugoslavaia) had largely failed after the Munich Crisis and thus we can see it as inevitable that Rumania would then turn to Germany to secure her territorial integrity.

In any case, during Molotov's meeting with Rumania this guarantee was a major (though not the only) issue of contention. Most likely this is the demand to which Hitler later refers to.

Best Regards

x__CRASH__x
09-17-2005, 09:07 PM
Interesting, although I couldn't understand a lick of it. At least the English translation served to inform!

Thanks for posting this!