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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted on 06/26/03 01:45AM (server time: GMT 0)

Lots of talk about the effectiveness of the fifties in REAL LIFE. Irregardless of how they are modeled in the game. In REAL LIFE, they are devestating. Notice some of the ranges these kills were made at or at least crippled the planes enough to move in and finish them.

Also, getting kind of old hearing about the Jug never reaching Berlin and not able to mix it up with the LW. Read the whole thing. These are only some of many, many accounts of the effectiveness of the Jug and how it met and beat the best of the LW using the correct tactics and discipline. These are not my words but the words of the men who fought and flew and killed and died in the Jug. If you wish to dispute them, that is your choice, but it is not mine.

http://www.donhollway.com/writing/wolfpack/wolfpack.html

a few excerpts for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

He opened fire on the trailing Focke-Wulf from 300 yards. "Suddenly a big ball of fire appeared on his left wing and then black smoke poured out," recalled Cook. "He rolled to the left, went over on his back in a gentle roll, and then went into a violent spin, with smoke pouring out from the fuselage and wing. At no time did the pilot take evasive action, and I believe he was killed."


The next day, again over Ypres, Zemke led the 61st down behind a schwarm of Focke-Wulfs, pulling within 200 yards of the enemy No. 4: "A split second after firing, the fuselage burst into flames and pieces of the right wing came off." The No. 3 twisted away with only minor hits on the starboard wing tip, but the No. 2 "sat in the gunsight as one would imagine for the ideal shot. Again, when the trigger was pulled this aircraft exploded with a long sheet of flame and smoke."

Johnson flamed the FW 190 with his first burst

The bomber crews had good reason to be edgy: They were about to depart on one of their bloodiest missions, the first Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid. Escorting the B-17s part-way to Schweinfurt, the 56th returned to Halesworth and took on 200-gallon, pressed-paper ferry tanks converted for combat use. These upset the Jug's handling and didn't feed well in the low air pressure above 20,000 feet, but they gave the Thunderbolts enough range to meet the bombers over Germany.

They proceeded to teach a Staffel of twin-engined Messerschmitt Bf 110 night fighters (Me 110s to American fighter pilots) not to venture out in daylight. "The 61st came screaming down from the front and caught an Me 110 right over the last box of bombers," Zemke recalled. "Two P-47s shot at this guy at the same time-sixteen guns firing-and both of them hit him simultaneously. That Me 110 blew up as I've never seen anything blow up and fell, on fire, directly through the bomber formation...without hitting one of them."

"I sneaked up behind it and started to fire from about 300 yards closing to 200 yards. It blew up."



The P-47s had received new 75-gallon underwing tanks, made of metal and pressurized to feed at all altitudes.) Spotting a lone Focke-Wulf stalking a straggling B-17 several thousand feet below, Zemke dived and fired from 500 yards: "Immediately strikes were registered all over the aircraft. Surprisingly, the Focke-Wulf flew on in a straight line. Another burst brought smoke and flame and a third caused the left undercarriage leg to drop. Only then did the stricken plane fall away in a vertical dive. As no evasive action had been observed I concluded the first burst had killed the pilot."

"I closed in rapidly behind them and opened fire on one at about 700 yards range...suddenly I was right on top of the 110. I just barely had time to push the control stick forward and duck below the burning German fighter." Regaining height, Gabreski dived after a second Bf 110. "This time I slowed my approach slightly, though we were still traveling at about 420 mph when I opened fire from 600 yards. The 110 took solid hits in its wing root and rolled over into a death fall at 14,000 feet."

There was: a large enemy formation below and 40-plus ahead, including new Focke-Wulf FW 190D "long-nosed" high-altitude fighters. Sending the 61st and 63rd down to attack the Germans below, Schilling brought the 62nd around behind those ahead. "I managed to hit the right-rear Me 109 with about a 20-degree deflection shot at a range of about 700 yards." As the Messerschmitt dropped off, Schilling moved up on the next in line, setting it afire. "I then picked another and fired at about 1,000 yards and missed as he broke right and started to dive for the deck. At about 17,000 feet I had closed to about 500 yards and fired, resulting in a heavy concentration of strikes, and the pilot bailed out."

"I repeated the same tactics as before and attacked one from about 500 yards' range." As the FW 190 went spinning downward Schilling latched onto a fifth, which put up more of a fight: "He immediately took violent evasive action, and it took me several minutes of maneuvering to get in a position to fire. I fired from about 300 yards above and to the left, forcing me to pull through him and fire as he went out of sight over the cowling. ...The pilot immediately bailed out."

On June 27th Gabreski downed a Bf 109 to match Bob Johnson's score, and on July 5th latched onto the tail of another near Evreaux: "We made three turns together at 3,000 feet. I fired several bursts at him, but the angle of deflection was extreme and I saw no hits. This joker was pretty good, but he made the classic mistake when he tried to break off by diving out of the fight." Seeing Gabreski rapidly close, the German pilot belatedly broke left. "I led him two rings of deflection in my gunsight, which placed him out of sight under my nose, and opened fire." The Messerschmitt came back into view smoking; another burst finished it off.

Kills four and five for Gabreski; Schilling and Cook also scored doubles (Cook likewise achieving ace status), and Mahurin got three more Bf 110s to become the E.T.O.'s first double ace. By March 1944, with 20 kills, he ranked as its highest scorer, with Bob and Jerry Johnson right behind him. The 61st Squadron became the first in the E.T.O. with over 100 victories to its credit; the Group's tally stood at 300. That month the Luftwaffe lost 22% of its pilots, a blow from which it never really recovered, and the 56th flew a Ramrod all the way to Berlin and back without meeting a single enemy fighter.

After that the 56th's only real challengers in the air were the new Me 262 jet fighters. The Wolfpack had downed jets before, with lucky passing shots or by catching them over their runways. They'd stuck with the Jug when all other groups went to P-51s, and were sole recipients of the P-47M-up-engined to produce 465 mph (more speed than a Mustang)-with which they accepted combat on the jets' terms. On April 5th, 1945, a Wolfpack pilot actually ran down a 262 in a shallow dive. Attempting to out-turn the P-47, the German pilot was cut off and shot down.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted on 06/26/03 01:45AM (server time: GMT 0)

Lots of talk about the effectiveness of the fifties in REAL LIFE. Irregardless of how they are modeled in the game. In REAL LIFE, they are devestating. Notice some of the ranges these kills were made at or at least crippled the planes enough to move in and finish them.

Also, getting kind of old hearing about the Jug never reaching Berlin and not able to mix it up with the LW. Read the whole thing. These are only some of many, many accounts of the effectiveness of the Jug and how it met and beat the best of the LW using the correct tactics and discipline. These are not my words but the words of the men who fought and flew and killed and died in the Jug. If you wish to dispute them, that is your choice, but it is not mine.

http://www.donhollway.com/writing/wolfpack/wolfpack.html

a few excerpts for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

He opened fire on the trailing Focke-Wulf from 300 yards. "Suddenly a big ball of fire appeared on his left wing and then black smoke poured out," recalled Cook. "He rolled to the left, went over on his back in a gentle roll, and then went into a violent spin, with smoke pouring out from the fuselage and wing. At no time did the pilot take evasive action, and I believe he was killed."


The next day, again over Ypres, Zemke led the 61st down behind a schwarm of Focke-Wulfs, pulling within 200 yards of the enemy No. 4: "A split second after firing, the fuselage burst into flames and pieces of the right wing came off." The No. 3 twisted away with only minor hits on the starboard wing tip, but the No. 2 "sat in the gunsight as one would imagine for the ideal shot. Again, when the trigger was pulled this aircraft exploded with a long sheet of flame and smoke."

Johnson flamed the FW 190 with his first burst

The bomber crews had good reason to be edgy: They were about to depart on one of their bloodiest missions, the first Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid. Escorting the B-17s part-way to Schweinfurt, the 56th returned to Halesworth and took on 200-gallon, pressed-paper ferry tanks converted for combat use. These upset the Jug's handling and didn't feed well in the low air pressure above 20,000 feet, but they gave the Thunderbolts enough range to meet the bombers over Germany.

They proceeded to teach a Staffel of twin-engined Messerschmitt Bf 110 night fighters (Me 110s to American fighter pilots) not to venture out in daylight. "The 61st came screaming down from the front and caught an Me 110 right over the last box of bombers," Zemke recalled. "Two P-47s shot at this guy at the same time-sixteen guns firing-and both of them hit him simultaneously. That Me 110 blew up as I've never seen anything blow up and fell, on fire, directly through the bomber formation...without hitting one of them."

"I sneaked up behind it and started to fire from about 300 yards closing to 200 yards. It blew up."



The P-47s had received new 75-gallon underwing tanks, made of metal and pressurized to feed at all altitudes.) Spotting a lone Focke-Wulf stalking a straggling B-17 several thousand feet below, Zemke dived and fired from 500 yards: "Immediately strikes were registered all over the aircraft. Surprisingly, the Focke-Wulf flew on in a straight line. Another burst brought smoke and flame and a third caused the left undercarriage leg to drop. Only then did the stricken plane fall away in a vertical dive. As no evasive action had been observed I concluded the first burst had killed the pilot."

"I closed in rapidly behind them and opened fire on one at about 700 yards range...suddenly I was right on top of the 110. I just barely had time to push the control stick forward and duck below the burning German fighter." Regaining height, Gabreski dived after a second Bf 110. "This time I slowed my approach slightly, though we were still traveling at about 420 mph when I opened fire from 600 yards. The 110 took solid hits in its wing root and rolled over into a death fall at 14,000 feet."

There was: a large enemy formation below and 40-plus ahead, including new Focke-Wulf FW 190D "long-nosed" high-altitude fighters. Sending the 61st and 63rd down to attack the Germans below, Schilling brought the 62nd around behind those ahead. "I managed to hit the right-rear Me 109 with about a 20-degree deflection shot at a range of about 700 yards." As the Messerschmitt dropped off, Schilling moved up on the next in line, setting it afire. "I then picked another and fired at about 1,000 yards and missed as he broke right and started to dive for the deck. At about 17,000 feet I had closed to about 500 yards and fired, resulting in a heavy concentration of strikes, and the pilot bailed out."

"I repeated the same tactics as before and attacked one from about 500 yards' range." As the FW 190 went spinning downward Schilling latched onto a fifth, which put up more of a fight: "He immediately took violent evasive action, and it took me several minutes of maneuvering to get in a position to fire. I fired from about 300 yards above and to the left, forcing me to pull through him and fire as he went out of sight over the cowling. ...The pilot immediately bailed out."

On June 27th Gabreski downed a Bf 109 to match Bob Johnson's score, and on July 5th latched onto the tail of another near Evreaux: "We made three turns together at 3,000 feet. I fired several bursts at him, but the angle of deflection was extreme and I saw no hits. This joker was pretty good, but he made the classic mistake when he tried to break off by diving out of the fight." Seeing Gabreski rapidly close, the German pilot belatedly broke left. "I led him two rings of deflection in my gunsight, which placed him out of sight under my nose, and opened fire." The Messerschmitt came back into view smoking; another burst finished it off.

Kills four and five for Gabreski; Schilling and Cook also scored doubles (Cook likewise achieving ace status), and Mahurin got three more Bf 110s to become the E.T.O.'s first double ace. By March 1944, with 20 kills, he ranked as its highest scorer, with Bob and Jerry Johnson right behind him. The 61st Squadron became the first in the E.T.O. with over 100 victories to its credit; the Group's tally stood at 300. That month the Luftwaffe lost 22% of its pilots, a blow from which it never really recovered, and the 56th flew a Ramrod all the way to Berlin and back without meeting a single enemy fighter.

After that the 56th's only real challengers in the air were the new Me 262 jet fighters. The Wolfpack had downed jets before, with lucky passing shots or by catching them over their runways. They'd stuck with the Jug when all other groups went to P-51s, and were sole recipients of the P-47M-up-engined to produce 465 mph (more speed than a Mustang)-with which they accepted combat on the jets' terms. On April 5th, 1945, a Wolfpack pilot actually ran down a 262 in a shallow dive. Attempting to out-turn the P-47, the German pilot was cut off and shot down.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

Zayets
06-27-2003, 05:02 PM
I do believe that 8 guns will do serious damage. Even 8 7.92mm firing at the same time will break everything standing their way. Imagine now 8 guns with double sized caliber. I cannot even think of it coz I will have only nightmares. P-47 will be redone in the patch , at least this is my oppinion.

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

I had to edit this. Written 9 instead of 8 , my bad!

Message Edited on 06/27/0305:52PM by Zayets