PDA

View Full Version : Butch2K - WB81 6 X 7.92mm MG81 weapon container for Ju 88C



XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 10:02 PM
Butch2K,

I am trying to find documentations & applications for the German WB81 weapon container for possible modelling & inclusion in FB jan pay add-on for the Junkers Ju 88C & Ju 87D series aircrafts at least.

The WB81 would be fairly easy to model (at least for the external model) and could constitute a worthy project for any of the "new" 3D modeller. There seem to be a rather good number of new modeler on the Netwings.org that are looking for starters projects to hone their Max modeling skillset.

http://www.ifrance.com/fockewulf190/site4/ju88/ju88c-4dessin.jpg


I am looking for info such as ammo count, applications ie. which aircrafts could be fitted with them & which variant, on which bomb racks the WB81 could be fitted, field mod or not, etc.....painting.....the more the better.

The drawing I have posted shows 2 WB81 on a Ju 88C-4. The WB81 seem to be mounted on the standard Ju 88A series external bomb rack, fitted to the C series. Jippo is likely to deliver the Ju 88C-6a shortly (Thanks Jippo) and I am wandering if there are records or photos of the WB81 ever fitted to the C-6a. If yes, it probably would be a great & rather easy project to move forward along the finalization of the Ju 88C-6a for the payware add-on due in January.

Any thoughts ??

Many thanks!

JagdMailer

<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">

JagdMailer </font>


http://www.jagdmail.com/img/buttons/229x76_2.gif (http://www.jagdmail.com/index.htm)
</p>


<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">www.jagdmail.com (http://www.jagdmail.com/index.htm)

Get your email address at one of 225+ domain names based on WWII Luftwaffe most prestigious units!</font>

</p>



<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="https://commerce.apexmail.net/jagdmail/affiliate/join.htm"target="_blank">WW2 sites webmasters, join our referral program!</a</p>

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 10:02 PM
Butch2K,

I am trying to find documentations & applications for the German WB81 weapon container for possible modelling & inclusion in FB jan pay add-on for the Junkers Ju 88C & Ju 87D series aircrafts at least.

The WB81 would be fairly easy to model (at least for the external model) and could constitute a worthy project for any of the "new" 3D modeller. There seem to be a rather good number of new modeler on the Netwings.org that are looking for starters projects to hone their Max modeling skillset.

http://www.ifrance.com/fockewulf190/site4/ju88/ju88c-4dessin.jpg


I am looking for info such as ammo count, applications ie. which aircrafts could be fitted with them & which variant, on which bomb racks the WB81 could be fitted, field mod or not, etc.....painting.....the more the better.

The drawing I have posted shows 2 WB81 on a Ju 88C-4. The WB81 seem to be mounted on the standard Ju 88A series external bomb rack, fitted to the C series. Jippo is likely to deliver the Ju 88C-6a shortly (Thanks Jippo) and I am wandering if there are records or photos of the WB81 ever fitted to the C-6a. If yes, it probably would be a great & rather easy project to move forward along the finalization of the Ju 88C-6a for the payware add-on due in January.

Any thoughts ??

Many thanks!

JagdMailer

<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">

JagdMailer </font>


http://www.jagdmail.com/img/buttons/229x76_2.gif (http://www.jagdmail.com/index.htm)
</p>


<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">www.jagdmail.com (http://www.jagdmail.com/index.htm)

Get your email address at one of 225+ domain names based on WWII Luftwaffe most prestigious units!</font>

</p>



<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="https://commerce.apexmail.net/jagdmail/affiliate/join.htm"target="_blank">WW2 sites webmasters, join our referral program!</a</p>

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 10:57 PM
same gun as 109 nose machine guns?
perhaps they where used to vvery gently rock the bomber crew to sleep
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
good idea tho /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 11:39 PM
P1ngu666,

The WB81 actually contained MG81 (6 of them). The 109 E/F/G-2 has MG17 on the cowlings. Same caliber, but I do not know if the MG81 had the same ballistic ie. better or worse than the MG17.

Anyone ?? Butch2K ??

JagdMailer



<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">

JagdMailer </font>


http://www.jagdmail.com/img/buttons/229x76_2.gif (http://www.jagdmail.com/index.htm)
</p>


<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">www.jagdmail.com (http://www.jagdmail.com/index.htm)

Get your email address at one of 225+ domain names based on WWII Luftwaffe most prestigious units!</font>

</p>



<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="https://commerce.apexmail.net/jagdmail/affiliate/join.htm"target="_blank">WW2 sites webmasters, join our referral program!</a</p>

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 05:45 AM
Ummm. i thought the only reason that the Bf109 had the MG 17 was because it was heavy and more powerful then the MG 81, as the '81 had to be handled more and moved around manually while the MG 17 was fixed with on the nose...

MG 17 cartridge 7.92x57 RoF RPS 20 Cartrige Power 1 Gun Power 20 Gun Weight 12 Gun Efficiency 1.75

"The MG 17 was suitable for installing a synchronization device for shooting through the aircraft's own propellor. Both weapons are air-cooled and recoil-operated; the MG 17 was belt-fed, both used the standard machine gun ammunition, the Mauser 7.92mm."

"The MG 81 was also originally an aircraft machine gun that was later used in the ground role when it was no longer used for the Luftwaffe just like the MG 15 and the MG 17 it had replaced as aircraft machine gun. The weapon had been designed by the Mauser Werke AG in Oberndorf and introduced in 1938, since early 1940 it began replacing the MG 15 and MG 17 as the standard aircraft machine gun. The major improvement in this new machine gun was a much higher rate of fire and the flexibility of feeding the ammunition belt from either of both sides"
both from http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust5.htm

Couldn't find ballistics for the MG 81, hhope this helps though.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 06:25 AM
I can already get you started on your quest for pod-equipped C's. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

There are two types of Machinegun pods, WB81A and WB81B (WB=Waffenbehalter=weapon container). They are otherwise identical but guns are facing front in the A version, while in the B they are tilted 15 degrees down.

WB's contain 3 MG-81z twin machineguns each, and each of those has 250 rounds of ammunition stored in the pod.That totals to 1500 rounds per pod. MG-81 shoots the same 7.92mm round as other german light airborne mg's. MG-81z can be testfired in the game by sitting on the gunners seat on Ju-87 D-3.

WB pods can be attached to most bomb racks carried externally (ETC-500 & ETC-1800 most often on 88).

Then there is also pods with MG-151 but the is a completely other story. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Problem for C-series is that they hadn't the external bombracks installed at all. But by all means, try to find sources with C & rack and I'll see what I can do. Btw., there is no point modelling the pods for me, for that I have very good sources. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 06:26 AM
Hummm AFAIR it was not used operationnaly, but i'll double check, period should be 42-43.
From my docs the ammo count was just 200 per weapon, maybe the WB151 would be more appropriate with 2 MG151/20 and 200 rds per gun.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 06:33 AM
It is 250 rounds according to Junkers manual, quote:

"...jeden Lauf der drei Waffen werden 250 Schuss Munition in..."


Two belts per gun each 250 rounds. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:22 AM
WB81B mounted on Ju 87 (Probably D-4 variant)

http://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/wb81z.jpg


JagdMailer

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:17 PM
Jippo01 wrote:

- There are two types of Machinegun pods, WB81A and
- WB81B (WB=Waffenbehalter=weapon container). They are
- otherwise identical but guns are facing front in the
- A version, while in the B they are tilted 15 degrees
- down.

I had heard it and see it on threads many time about WB81. I wonder how heck will pilot aim the WB81B that are tilted 15 degree. In read life, maybe they used different gunsight...maybe use grease pen to marking windshield to aim it. In IL2/FB, maybe program will show up on windshield with "grease pen or chewing gun(US ground crew do that)?

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:35 PM
It was meant to be used against hordes of russians. Just fly ower the nuch at low level and fire at the mass of infantry. It is not to be aimed, and not a very precise weapon. Germans themselves called it the "watering can", because of the effect of bullets raining on the infantry.

Even in the "Last II" position pods should be aimed backwards (otherwise they would hit propellors) and rear gunner would fire them when ever suitable target was flown over.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:52 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- It was meant to be used against hordes of russians.
- Just fly ower the nuch at low level and fire at the
- mass of infantry. It is not to be aimed, and not a
- very precise weapon. Germans themselves called it
- the "watering can", because of the effect of bullets
- raining on the infantry.
-
- Even in the "Last II" position pods should be aimed
- backwards (otherwise they would hit propellors) and
- rear gunner would fire them when ever suitable
- target was flown over.
-
-
--jippo
-
Thank you for quick answer, I think it is good reason to not model it since there are no infantry in IL2/FB.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:03 PM
I have the ju88 manual 980pages the WB81 6 X 7.92mm MG81 weapon container are aso in there if wished i can scan the pages...and post them here......

I think i scanned already the pages for him.

<img src=http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/falkster.gif alt="III/JG53" width="600"> (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

Message Edited on 10/14/0309:05PM by JG53-Falkster

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:14 PM
I guess I must let you of the hook. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ju-88 A-13 is now announced. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif A-13 was a close support plane used especially in the east front. It's task was to do close air support missions for German infantry.

Very similar to A-14. More armor in the cockpit floor and undersides of engines. Differences come in mainly armament section. While A-4 and A-14 carry mainly GP bombs, A-13 will be equipped with machinegun pods (up to 36 guns), AB-cluster munition and SD-2 dispensers.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/A13_01.jpg


http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/A13_02.jpg



-jippo



Message Edited on 10/14/0308:14PM by Jippo01

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:41 PM
mmmm...nice!

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/giantrobot/bender.jpg
Which Colossal Death Robot Are You? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/giantrobot/)

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:07 PM
Btw Jippo the A-13 was never serialy produced, only a few prototypes were built, and it seems that some troubles arose during tests.
It's possible that a couple were operationaly tested during 42-43 but that's all, and they do not appear on monthly production listing nor unit equipement lists.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:29 PM
Gunship! A veritable WW2 AC-130!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg


Message Edited on 10/14/03‚ 09:30PM by A.K.Davis

Message Edited on 10/14/0309:32PM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:39 PM
butch2k wrote:
- Btw Jippo the A-13 was never serialy produced, only
- a few prototypes were built, and it seems that some
- troubles arose during tests.
- It's possible that a couple were operationaly tested
- during 42-43 but that's all, and they do not appear
- on monthly production listing nor unit equipement
- lists.

Oh really?

Are you sure you are not confusing it with the P-series? Of P prototypes were built with 75mm, 50mm and 37mm AT guns and it didn't make large scale production (but was used in the eastfront). You see, A-13 is really A-4 without divebreaks, and with additional armor. I cannot imagine what sort of problems could adding some armor plating cause?

And even if you are right, this is as much gameplay decision as planetype decision. Same armament options could be given to A-4 or A-14, but this way mission builder can "quide" the player(s) by allowing only certain kind of weapon systems. Low level weapons for A-13 and more normal weapons suitable for level and dive bombing raids on A-4 and A-14. Performance wise A-13 is just the same as the A-14. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo



Ps. I ran quickly through my sources and not one lists A-13 as 'rare' bird. Heinz Nowarra says:

"Speziell f√ľr die Ostfront wurde die A-13 entwickelt. Es war eine A-4 mit starker Panzerung nach unten, da sie f√ľr Tiefangriffe eingesetzt werden solte. Statt bomben trug sie an den √¬§usseren Lastentr√¬§ger auf jeder Seite einem Waffenbehalter WB 81 mit maximal ach MG 81."

Sound pretty normal to me. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

P-1, which had the 75mm PaK 40, on the other hand had some problems during testing as it's muzzle blast damage the propellors. These problems were fixed by installation of a new muzzlebrake. Also P-2 and P-3 variants with smaller caliber weapons were tested along with Ju-87 G prototypes, but it was decided that the P-series wouldn't be put to production. because Ju-87 G was much more suitable for the task. I think you are confusing A-13 with P's.



Message Edited on 10/14/0310:02PM by Jippo01

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:02 PM
Sounds great to me Jippo!!!

Will gladly take the Ju 88A-13! Seems the WB81A was fitted to the Ju 88C-4 for sure. Only 2 pods of the WB81A variant, not the WB81B variant with the guns angled downwards.

I have not been able to find concrete information about fittment on the C-6 yet however. Butch2K has suggested that the C-6 may have been fitted with 2 pods of the WB151 w/ 2 X MG151/20 instead. Any ideas in this regards ?

I will keep digging. Maybe we can try with the Falkster ?? The user that posted about the Ju 88 manual ? Anyone else ?

Thanks much again Jippo for the A-13 !

You are my personal hero.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JagdMailer

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:08 PM
Unless ETC(or other type) racks are installed, there isn't any C version that can carry gunpods.

Unfortunately I don't find it very likely that fighter pilots would have ETC racks and pods installed. It would cut the top speed probably something like 20-30km/h due to increased weight and drag. In fact one of the most common field mods was the removal of the gondola (thus removing also 2 x 20mm MG/FF and possibility for MG-81z) to increase speed of the plane.

Also, WB81A pods cannot be installed in the ETC racks between the engines, bullets would hit the propellor. They would have to be type B.


-jippo



Message Edited on 10/14/0310:10PM by Jippo01

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:31 AM
No confusion Jippo /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif they do seem to have encountered some troubles while testing and the bird was not produced. It's not really a problem since it will make a nice addition to the game.
Btw are you planning both kind of WB81 ?

Butch

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:38 AM
butch2k wrote:
- No confusion Jippo they do seem to have
- encountered some troubles while testing and the bird
- was not produced. It's not really a problem since it
- will make a nice addition to the game.
- Btw are you planning both kind of WB81 ?
-
- Butch
-


That is REALLY interesting, as there is no mention of that anywhere! And do believe that I have consumed more than a few books about Ju-88! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but would it be possible for you to find the documents you have about the matter? I would be interested about the story behind this...

Thanks.

Both WB's are already modelled. If you look at the pictures closely, wingtips have A's and ETC's in the middle have B's - front and rear facing.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:27 AM
Ive browsed these boards since Il-2 first came out but never really had a reason to post. I just wanted to say that the Ju-88 is looking absolutely incredible and the "watering cans" are something I never thought I would see in a game. Im absolutely floored Jippo, thank you so much for all the hard work.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:34 AM
Thank you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:22 AM
My sources are production listings and units equipement lists showing no A-13 either produced or in stock at the unit level.
And i'm sure i encountered a doc mentionning those troubles with the WB, or maybe it was just the whole concept which was found to vulnerable to ennemy gunfire. I'll check my docs when i get time.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:37 AM
butch2k wrote:
- My sources are production listings and units
- equipement lists showing no A-13 either produced or
- in stock at the unit level.
- And i'm sure i encountered a doc mentionning those
- troubles with the WB, or maybe it was just the whole
- concept which was found to vulnerable to ennemy
- gunfire. I'll check my docs when i get time.
-
- Butch
-

Cheers!

When you have the documents at hand, contact me at jniukka (at) hotmail dot com, and I'll give you my real email, so we can discussed it in depth. I would also like to ask you couple of other questions unrelated to A-13 which you might be able to help me out with.

WB pods were operational with both Ju-87 and 88, so they are not likely to be the cause of the problems. I also know that such attacks were flown regularly with 88's of different types, AND with big losses.

But as I said, maybe we continue this discussion in private?



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 10:44 AM
Amazing!!! This is one variant I never thought would fly in FB. Thx for your work Jippo!

BTW: This is how a discussion/debate should look on these boards. Respect to you guys!

<center>



http://www.fornberg.com/109k4.jpg
</center>
<center>
<div style="width:400;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=4)">
The Flettner tab won the war