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F19_Orheim
11-14-2005, 02:45 PM
Hey Oleg, would it not be great to use this engine in Bob?

http://www.avalanchestudios.se/

Avalanche Engine Features:
Advanced weather simulation and effects
Dynamically forming volumetric clouds and fog
Based on real world parameters, such as temperature, humidity and air-pressure
Rain, snow, thunderstorms, wind, etc
Day-to-night effects
Streaming technology
Allows for huge worlds at high detail
Advanced vegetation system
Proprietary Level-of-detail technology allows for forests of unlimited draw-distance, size, and density
Seamless level of detail transitions
Using Geo-morphing
Spline-based road generation system



I saw a interview with the founder on Swdedish Television and my first thought was: THIS IS made for flightsims!! The possibility to make HUGE maps with excellent detail is staggering.

Oleg, learn about Avalanche Engine, the demo I saw on this program was fantastic.

CrazyIvan, if Oleg doesn't see this make sure he doeshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BaldieJr
11-14-2005, 03:02 PM
Maps are only 32km by 32km though (according to thier site).

F19_Orheim
11-14-2005, 03:23 PM
nono, in that game (Just cause) the maps are 32 x 32 km becasue there is no need for them to bigger for a 1st person shooter (HUGE in that perspective) but according to the interview on TV there is really no limit for the size when using the engine..

Oleg_Maddox
11-15-2005, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
nono, in that game (Just cause) the maps are 32 x 32 km becasue there is no need for them to bigger for a 1st person shooter (HUGE in that perspective) but according to the interview on TV there is really no limit for the size when using the engine..

BaldieJr is right here. The smaller map - the more objects could be placed... In Fligth sim are way more greater maps and way more visible distances... All of this eat a lot f memore and recources of graphics card and processor. Say Flgith sim Vs shooter need way more resources for the renders of greater map and objects with large distances of flield view.

For the flight sim we do special 3D engine... on which possible also to make such game as posted screen shot. Lets say that Il-2 engine basis already used for the other game that has similar graphics... and its based on the engine that is 5 years old:

http://games.1c.ru/ww2rts/?type=gallery

So be sure that in flight sim we need to think twice for which tasks and goals we need calculate resources in the 3D engine and other modules, that are also more complex than in other Genres of the games...
Its also why not so many developers of good flight sims are present in the world...

Also be sure that the engines of shotter, tacktical shooters are not siutable for the flight sim... just maybe some 3D graphics solutions and methods could be situable...

Oleg_Maddox
11-15-2005, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
nono, in that game (Just cause) the maps are 32 x 32 km becasue there is no need for them to bigger for a 1st person shooter (HUGE in that perspective) but according to the interview on TV there is really no limit for the size when using the engine..

In additional.

We also have no limits for the map size in the Il-2 engine... The limit gives the power and RAM of the PC and Graphics cards.
So we need to limit the size or toe make very bad quality of the maps with pixelated surfaces, etc....

When they will make huge map insted of basic their limit 32x32 km the engine will work way slowly with unacceptable frame rate... as well as when will be not enough memore to render the envirounment it will be loaded fro the hard disk, which is more or less acceptable in games where action is on the ground only, but totally not acceptable for the flight sims where any additional loading during flight means stop of the game fore a second or several seconds (loading and replacement of one textures and objects to the other in memory) and as a result, especially in online game - imposiblity of the gameplay. I will repeat - its a problem of flight sims where we need to go for compromises in way more directions than in shooters, etc..

PS.

98% of the listed features here are present in Il-2 engine... which is 5+ years old.

Avalanche Engine Features:
Advanced weather simulation and effects
*Dynamically forming volumetric clouds and fog
Based on real world parameters, such as temperature, humidity and air-pressure
Rain, snow, thunderstorms, wind, etc
Day-to-night effects
Streaming technology
Allows for huge worlds at high detail
Advanced vegetation system
Proprietary Level-of-detail technology allows for forests of unlimited draw-distance, size, and density
Seamless level of detail transitions
**Using Geo-morphing
Spline-based road generation system


* It will be in BoB but I can give you a guarantie that it will be 200% more real than in this game... You will feel it in a flight ...

** we had it in Il-2 engine (and even in our game of 1997 year release ZAR, but this take a lot of resources... say each bomber make a drop of many bombs and each bomb make a crack.... in additional cracks make the shells of tanks, guns, rockets and guns of planes... Just imagine how great need to be PC that to render it in real time on a great size surface! It is possible on a small area... but not in the modern flight sim.... Or we need to forget about realistic AI and modeling of physics of the planes, engines, etc...

Even grass is in engine of Il-2... but its to early to use in this flight sim... and in BoB it will be aslo graphics option of quality...

HelSqnProtos
11-15-2005, 02:38 AM
S~! Oleg

Thank you for the information sir.

We are ALL eagerly awaiting your next masterpiece.

Do you have any idea yet when and how much cpu we will need. 1 gig of memory is standard now in the series, with 2 being recommended for larger missions and smooth gameplay. Especially online.


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Question:

1 gig of memory is now standard for the sim, with 2 gigs highly recommended. Will 2 gigs of DDR II be enough for B.O.B. and will you code for 64 bit sir?</span>

On behalf of the 13th Hellenic Squadron, thank you for all you have done for the community.

Oleg_Maddox
11-15-2005, 02:56 AM
I can't say now with precise.
But sure if you'll want maximum settings you will need upgrade the PC...
You will be able to play with the current close to top system, but without maximal set.

The new engine we are desining we pklan to use as well not less than 5-7 years for the new series of the sims. So there will be put many features that will be available later... not from the beginning.

HelSqnProtos
11-15-2005, 03:24 AM
S~! Mr. Maddox

Your gracious reply was most appreciated.

I am sure you don't want to give this away just yet <span class="ev_code_PINK">but ...... if possible</span> can you tell us?

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Will you code for 64 bit ? </span>

I am most certainly not an expert, however the advantages for a flight sim would seem to be many indeed. Support for larger memory access. Dual or Multi processor support ect..... just to name a few off the top of my head.

LeadSpitter_
11-15-2005, 03:18 PM
how can games like fs9 and cfs series have more map objects, more complex map meshes, better high alt ground textures and also have full world terrain with further draw distances?

I think F19_Orheim is right and the visability of ground items in this game is so low 750m in wide view they disapear but can be seen with gunsite view.

It really is bad compaired to other sims high alt

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/4thfg/p4g.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/4thfg/youiswrong.jpg

, your map textures much better low alt under 800m but the draw distance is way to low for ground pounding. To me visability distance is so important when ground attack is concerned.

Im hoping these are not problems of bob engine.

Also for this game to make things run better have you ever thought of scaling the trees in the towns much bigger have half 4x the size they are medium and the scale they are now, you can put less trees which would require less cpu power and they will look more the scale and fill in village squares better.

I think trees of large scale are very important and it would be nice if someone made a trees pack for this sim.

summer fall and winter

conifers leaved trees and low poly palms. That would increase fps by alot and look better. who knows maybe for bob. Nothing compairs to this game on the wwii flight sim market and i think that avalanche engine would solve many problems to make things run smoother.

F19_Orheim
11-15-2005, 04:08 PM
thanx oleg for noticing. I am sure u will get it right - just thought you ought to see this one.

cheers mate

BaldieJr
11-15-2005, 05:02 PM
Comparing the two is a bit unfair really. MS has the advantage of no weaponry to model and they hide a lot of stuff in assembly. Plus they can swap textures and other tricky things in/out vmem without people complaining. Try that in a fast-paced flight sim and watch if fall on its face.

If youre listening to recomendations Oleg, please consider http://web.interware.hu/bandi/ranger.html

Run the demo. Its worth seeing in real-time. It really needs nice textures though.

HelSqnProtos
11-15-2005, 05:11 PM
S~!

Wow FINALLY an actual contribution from you. My eyes have seen the glory of the light. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif hehe

This link in particular I think is quite impressive.

Oleg sir I hope you will take a moment to see it.

http://web.interware.hu/bandi/video/ranger00.avi

*** Note that due to the small resolution and lossy compression these video clips look far worse than the real demo. Also note that these clips were recorded at a constant 30 frames per second, but this has nothing to do with the actual rendering performance. The real thing runs smoother and looks nicer! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Nice find Baldy.

F19_Orheim
11-15-2005, 05:27 PM
nice find Baldy..

here's a sample of the Avalanche Engine

http://svt.se/svt/road/Classic/shared/mediacenter/index.jsp?d=13119&a=486808

Can you imagine... with that Lighting effects (sun between the branches) on a huge map..... the details.. the movement of trees, water... clouds.... amazing

I wish they had made a movie showing how a flightsim might look

F19_Orheim
11-16-2005, 05:07 AM
another TECH demo

http://www.justcausegame.com/

pick the BIG filehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AWL_Spinner
11-16-2005, 05:39 AM
Regarding there being very few original flight sim developers pushing new engines out of the door, please have a look at what these guys are doing with their Falklands airwar product Jet Thunder.

Some of the latest terrain shots are fantastic in terms of terrain colours, textures and relief.

http://www.thunder-works.com/news.htm

It's still in early stages of development but given there's only a couple of them working on it it's very impressive.

BlackStar2000
11-16-2005, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
nono, in that game (Just cause) the maps are 32 x 32 km becasue there is no need for them to bigger for a 1st person shooter (HUGE in that perspective) but according to the interview on TV there is really no limit for the size when using the engine..

BaldieJr is right here. The smaller map - the more objects could be placed... In Fligth sim are way more greater maps and way more visible distances... All of this eat a lot f memore and recources of graphics card and processor. Say Flgith sim Vs shooter need way more resources for the renders of greater map and objects with large distances of flield view.

For the flight sim we do special 3D engine... on which possible also to make such game as posted screen shot. Lets say that Il-2 engine basis already used for the other game that has similar graphics... and its based on the engine that is 5 years old:

http://games.1c.ru/ww2rts/?type=gallery

So be sure that in flight sim we need to think twice for which tasks and goals we need calculate resources in the 3D engine and other modules, that are also more complex than in other Genres of the games...
Its also why not so many developers of good flight sims are present in the world...

Also be sure that the engines of shotter, tacktical shooters are not siutable for the flight sim... just maybe some 3D graphics solutions and methods could be situable... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Maddox

A little question, what game is that on the pics????
http://games.1c.ru/ww2rts/gallery/ww2rts239.jpg?1CSESSID=5b6f18c78d194ccaeb5616ef9eb dcbe9

Choctaw111
11-16-2005, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
nice find Baldy..

here's a sample of the Avalanche Engine

http://svt.se/svt/road/Classic/shared/mediacenter/index.jsp?d=13119&a=486808

Can you imagine... with that Lighting effects (sun between the branches) on a huge map..... the details.. the movement of trees, water... clouds.... amazing

I wish they had made a movie showing how a flightsim might look

That looks incredible!!!! but how large can you make a map without using up most if not all of the computers power. Remember we need to also have a flight model, damage model and a host of other things all running at the same time. How much computer power does this avalanche engine use?

F16_Petter
11-16-2005, 10:26 AM
Well after seeing the tv show in the rerun I think that there is some things to be said here...

go to 13 minutes and 35 seconds of the show and watch to 22 minutes and 5 seconds..
http://svt.se/content/1/c6/48/45/31/051114kontroll.asx

During the interwiev with the developer in the show they talked about the future of the avalanche engine.

You can clearly see that during a small tec demonstration at their office of the game "Just Cause" there was a very nice way of getting a lot of detail in very large areas and still move around in that world without any loading, and really really fast too! they moved from ground level to about 10km altitude and flew around to different points of the game world.. and pretty big distances too!

This video below shows what avalanche is working as the NEXT avalanche engine, wich does NOT nessesarily have to be a shooter....

http://svt.se/content/1/c6/48/68/08/avalanche.asx

It is basically the avalanche engine but with even more technical refinements to it. They are constantly working on making it better... for future projects.

And I think it uses tecnology that goes a little beyond of what we have today to be honest.
I think you guys must stop thinking in old terms here..

I would normally agree with what has been said here about bigger maps means bigger memory use etc, but after seeing and listening to that game developer and the possibilities of that enginge, I dont.

At least when it comes to terrain.
About objects and stuff its still pretty clear, if it doesnt use some sort of Autogen system...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To sum it up, i still belive that its perhaps a bit too much to wish for that this could be used in a flightsim since it uses much cpu for flightmodel etc, but it will perhaps show that there are lots of progress in making great detail in enviroments of computergames / simulators...

I guess we will have to see for ourselves in the future what its gonna be like!

Personally im hoping to see a Operation Flashpoint-type of simulator with this engine!
(To me OFP isnt a shooter, and it never has been)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Scen
11-16-2005, 10:38 AM
Oleg,

Thank you for responding to the post and sharing your view points on the future of your flight sim engine.

Since you're developing an engine for the future (5-7 years) do you have any thoughts on multiple CPUs or Dual Core technologies? Also it was mentioned that ATI is making their drivers to allow their GPUs to number crunch if you will. GPUs are monsters when to comes to complex math and it might prove interesting if it can help offload once again.

I don't know exactly what benefits can be gained but from the looks of it there is some real potential.

Scendore

F19_Orheim
11-16-2005, 10:53 AM
Petter, try to see the platform as a platform... not necessarily that amount of detail... which is really uneccessary in a flightsim. It is the architecture behind it that is interesting and perhaps groundbreaking, how to the eginge handles all that amout of mass land, water, sky etc) without bugging the computer. I am quite sure that this engine has huge potentials as a platform for sims from this moment.

And OFP in that enviroment? I say "go and boil you bottom Battlefield 2".. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

PS: Petter check your spelling on your sigpic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

PlaneEater
11-16-2005, 01:45 PM
Oleg: if you don't read any other part of this post, please read this one question: Is there any chance self-shadowing (objects casting shadows on their own surface and on other objects) could be added as a graphics option, at least for planes, ships, and vehicles? It would be a gigantic visual boost for the sim.

There are really just three main things I think are lacking in the IL-2 terrain engine:

1--draw distances for large objects and map features are too short. Even a super-low-res version that was visible WAAAY out would help.

2--no sheer cliffs. I understand it has to do with the low detail version of the geometry at very long distances. Would be nice to have a fix for it.

3--large forests or jungles look very patterned. Blending different textures in splotches would help. So would throwing in a some variation to the cover--thin spots, dense spots, some big or bent trees here and there.

Other than that, the only thing REALLY missing from the graphics engine is self-shadowing and bump mapping.

Self-shadowing really, really needs to be added. I would love to see it included as part of the winding-down of IL-2. Maybe even soft shadow edges. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bump mapping is a very, very easy OpenGL or Direct3D function--EVERYTHING is using it these days, it's easy and fast to run because all the hardware is optimized for it, and it would make the aircraft look amazingly more lifelike.

LeadSpitter_
11-17-2005, 10:53 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif