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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:57 PM
Hi all

Have set up a QMB with 6 Hurricane MK2c v 8 MC202 and they are tough. I getting hits but thay just carry on flying the only way to taken them down to take a wing off. Trying to set one on fire is near impossible. Its almost like fighting against a 190

So was thay really that tough? or is it a bug

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:57 PM
Hi all

Have set up a QMB with 6 Hurricane MK2c v 8 MC202 and they are tough. I getting hits but thay just carry on flying the only way to taken them down to take a wing off. Trying to set one on fire is near impossible. Its almost like fighting against a 190

So was thay really that tough? or is it a bug

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:00 PM
I dont know how tough they were, but IIRC, they were hard to shoot down anyway on account of their high manueverability and small size.

Come to think of it, ive never taken any on in the QMB... Oh well, thats my project for tonight then... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:01 PM
Its a bug with the .303s, use a p40 and they can be shot down, but they were durable as the hurricane was.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:15 PM
samba_liten wrote:
- I dont know how tough they were, but IIRC, they were
- hard to shoot down anyway on account of their high
- manueverability and small size.
-
-


Manueverable yes, but some Russian fighters were smaller. Compare to the 109:

MC202:
Wingspan 10.58 m (34 ft. 8.5 in.)
Length 8.85 m (29 ft. 0.5 in.)
Height 3.02 m (9 ft. 11.5 in.)
Weight 2,357 kg (5,181 lb.) empty

109G:
Wingspan 9.924 m (32 ft. 6.5 in.)
Length 9.048 m (29 ft. 8.0 in.)
Height 2.5 m (8 ft. 2.25 in.)




http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:26 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Manueverable yes, but some Russian fighters were
- smaller. Compare to the 109:
-
- MC202:
- Wingspan 10.58 m (34 ft. 8.5 in.)
- Length 8.85 m (29 ft. 0.5 in.)
- Height 3.02 m (9 ft. 11.5 in.)
- Weight 2,357 kg (5,181 lb.) empty
-
- 109G:
- Wingspan 9.924 m (32 ft. 6.5 in.)
- Length 9.048 m (29 ft. 8.0 in.)
- Height 2.5 m (8 ft. 2.25 in.)


The 109 is a Russian fighter? This is news to me... No wonder the P-51 won the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

j/k

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:26 PM
You gota use I-16 against it, its fun!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:32 PM
Maybe you can try the IAR-80/81 if you want to see a tough plane in action...

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:34 PM
.303 caliber rifle bullets should make shooting ANYthing down more difficult

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:39 PM
If only some could read./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I could have worded it better./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The 109 was included as another Axis a/c for comparison.

cuski wrote:
-
-
-
- The 109 is a Russian fighter? This is news to me...
- No wonder the P-51 won the war


But if you want some numbers for Russian fighters

La-5

Wing Span 9.80m
Length 8.60m
Height 2.54m

Yak3

Wingspan:30 ft 2.25 in (9.20 m)
Length:27 ft 10.25 in (8.50 m)
Height:7 ft 10 in (2.39 m)

MiG3

Wingspan: 10,20 M
Length: 8,26 M
Height: 3,50 M





http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg


Message Edited on 06/23/0304:55PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:39 PM
And you really comsider the MIG-3 to be a fighter?
Not really, atleast not under 3000m.
And yes, better try IAR-81 for a though fighter/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:55 PM
I think is more an issue of calibre, the 8´gunned hurri´ll have a lot of trouble tryin to shot down an C.202, because its metal construction, maneubravility( as stated before) and relatively small size, alos the C.202 is a lot more agile than the Hurricane, the P.40 an even the 109. Its a beautiful and capable fighter, it only weakness is the lack of firepower (2x12.7 Breda SAFAT+ 2 x7.7 idem)last evening I was flying a formation of 4 109G-6/AS against 4 Mc.202, 4 Morko Morane 4 Pe-8 and 2 IAR-80, can handle all the types but the c.202 was only in mi gunsight when catch one by surprise when trying to shot down one of my planes, a short burst of 30mm ammo and her wing break off, seconds later I get killed when persuing at low height another Mc.202. I love fight against Iar´s and Macchis, hope we can fly´em soon also. best regards


Veltro

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:46 AM
I think it's a bug. I fight them all the time in the QMB, and I've never gotten one to smoke with .50's. 109s, 190s, etc. all smoke up fine, but the best way to brin down the MC202 is to take off a wing.



"When you're going through Hell, keep going." - Sir Winston

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 04:15 AM
FINALLY, someone else noticed this. I have played hundreds of QMB fights and I can honestly say that there are 3 planes that take WAY too much damage.

1. Any Yak
2. Any FW-190
3. Macci-202

These planes are ridiculous, they take alot more punishment than P-47 and Il-2, especially the FW-190. Nobody seems to notice, and my biggest concern for the patch is that these concrete planes will go unnoticed. At least the Yaks are vulnerable to machine guns. The Macci-202 also has a few graphical errors, you can damage parts and they become clear, as if they should have broken off but are still there. This is the only plane in the game that I notice do this. Play some QMB games and damage the Macci, sooner or later you will see graphical errors.

PLEASE tell me they fixed the DM of these 3 planes, it is really a concern of mine. I like the Macci alot and can't wait to fly it. The FW-190 should be a much better performer IMHO. And I like Yaks as well. But these planes take way too much damage currently.

http://www.mucheswarbirds.com/image90.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 07:34 AM
Thanks for the input guys, will try the P40 and see if thats any better, if not then will have to see if the patch improves things!

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 07:43 AM
Dunno about Yaks. When I use them, I get chewed right up. Cannon shell *BOOM* there goes my wing, my engine, and my gas tank is on fire...oh and my player is seriously wounded.


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Message Edited on 06/23/03 11:43PM by vecdran

Message Edited on 06/23/0311:48PM by vecdran

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:26 AM
I've observed this also. This Italian plane has a rather funny damage model. You just keep on hitting it and it hasn't got any appearant damage (like CFS LOL) but, if you hit it enough, it 'll explode! Just like that!

Really very funny.

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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
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measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:17 AM
The P-40 WILL be much improved in the patch. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mucheswarbirds.com/image90.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:53 PM
I dunno about the Yaks, I get killed alot flying them /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But I agree the FW190 takes waaaay too much pounding to kill (dunno if it's the DM or the Russian cannon model) and the Macchi is very hard to damage as well,

I hope someone makes the Macchi 202 flyable. Its firepower is lacking but in terms of being fast and nimble, it's one of the most fun early war planes to fly. It certainly was in WarBirds. You may not win often in it but (like I love doing with the Chaika and Rata), you can jink until the bad guys run out of bullets and fly away cackling: UFO! UFO! and feel good when you land safely /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But, yes, others of us have noticed the FW and the Macchi are very hard to damage, even with multiple solid hits.

ttt

tttiger

"Never wise up a chump!" -- W.C. Fields



Message Edited on 06/24/0310:56AM by tttiger

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:10 PM
hmm well.. perhaps you are trying to shoot down the F-8 .. and she has additional armor /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif As for Yaks i believe they are bit too armored.. as sometimes it takes 3 Mk108 hits to finish them off! And I believe they were really weak in real life.. same goes for I-16.. atleast when it comes to trying to take out one with small caliber (50 and 30cal..).. very hard..


Haven't tested MC202 yet... Imo Dora of the 190s takes the most punishment.. (except for the engine, she is very easy to be damaged).. P-47 damage is about right.. it takes a lot of ammo and several MK108s to bring it down.. except for wing hits. Like it was in real life I believe /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Don't know how strong the 190 was in real life but I like it at the moment.. one of its few advantages.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:22 PM
no stronger then the 190d and ta152

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:01 AM
All this about FW's and others taking too much damage. I think the FW was extremely famous for being tough, so maybe it's damage model is not too bad, at least they can be downed if you try. But nobody mentioned the I-16 being too tough!! Those things take an insane amount of damage, as if they are made of diamonds. I happen to know that the I-16 Rata was in fact known to be on the tough side, but I still think it's damage model is way too tough though. Every mention of them in stories said the 109s "outclassed"
them but if they were like they are in FB in real life, they more like outclassed the 109 except in speed. They should tone the damage model down a little, IMHO. The P-40 is probably a hair too fragile as is the 109 tribe. But only just touch. But it's hard to say since the war is long over and we can't take any real ones out to fight in them. All I know is nothing ( in the game ) on the German side short of a MK-108 seems to touch the Rata. It ruins early war German campaigns for me so much I now edit all missions beforehand so I don't have to face them. Also the I-153 is now tougher than it was in IL2. You used to be able to set them on fire like Zippo lighters in IL2, now they, like the Ratas, take too much damage for me to stomach. I edit them out as well. I replace these two birds with more easily downed Laggs and Yaks. I miss the old Zippo Chaikas!!! They were the equal of Jap zeros in IL2!! You could almost look at them mean and set them on fire in IL2.
In FB I chased a Chaika ( out of ammo ) all the way to it's base and hit it from every angle with a MG fire from my 109E7B and it took hundreds of hits. Very high percentage of my bullets hit it. I must have gotten it with
100 short bursts where 80% of the bullets hit it. It was shredded but still flew on and landed. I got so obsessed I ran out of gas behind enemy lines, so my campaign was toasted by this titanium wonder!! I hit that thing everywhere but the pilot ( apparently ). Now someone will reply and say stuff about how I hit it from behind too much or something. That argument would work except for the fact that you can hit every other plane in FB from behind and kill it easily, even a FW. Why won't the Rata or Chaika go down from behind?? Was thier armor superior to other planes?? Even late war planes?? Somehow I doubt it!! You hit a 109 from behind ust a few times and it's tails falls off. A Chaika or Rata?? Nothing happens at all, period. Cannon or MG, no matter.


As far as the MC202's, I find them downable, played 10 QMBS, four P-40E's against 4 of them and we ( AI and myself ) almost always won the fight. But they do seem tough. I did noticed that I could get their engines to seize up and stop sometimes with hits, but there was never any smoke or fire. Never once. Maybe the total lack of smoke and fire is a bug, but the toughness is just the way they damage modelled it??? I would not call that a bug, just poor damage modelling, if in fact they were not that tough in real life. But how would anybody know for sure??
We may never know how the real thing was........
Also someone said in one of the earlier posts that the MC-202 was a better turner than the P-40, not in my experience.
Plus in my test I had the AI set on ACE too........



Message Edited on 06/25/03 04:09AM by mortoma

Message Edited on 06/25/0304:17AM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:10 AM
The AI 202 just sucks, a 202 could out turn a P40.
Don't take whats in game for how it realy was as we all know thats not true. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
202 outclassed p40 and hurricane by speed, turning, rate of climb, everything else except for guns.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:11 AM
Certainly the Macci is not too tough of an opponent, but it does take too much damage. IMHO the DM is broke as many times there will be pieces of the plane that are missing when damaged, possibly they are supposed to have broken off. It takes too much damage regardless. I agree that P-40 and 109 are SLIGHTLY too fragile, and maybe Mig and P-39 as well.

I agree that Rata and I-153 are too tough as well, but at least cannons seem to effect Rata. FW-190 takes an insane amount of damage from any gun under 30mm. They are WAY tougher than IL-2 and P-47, as is Macci-202, and that can't be right. Maybe as tough but definitely not alot tougher. I don't think I have ever damaged the rudder or tail surface at all on FW-190, yet strangely once in a blue moon the 190's wing will fall off with one round. At least in the 190 and 202 the engines are vulnerable, but the fuesalage can withstand an insane amount of .50 rounds and 20mm cannon shells, and I mean an INSANE amount. There does seem to be one vulnerable spot on the 190 where the tail section meets the fuesalge.

http://www.mucheswarbirds.com/image90.jpg


Message Edited on 06/25/0304:13AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 01:14 PM
Hi all me agian, had another go with the P39 and had better luck against the MC 202 but only with the cannon, MG never touched it. I gave up with the P40.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 02:49 PM
Just had a go against the MC202 in QMB. The only way to kill them was by wing removal.

Also, it doesn't appear to have an engine/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Take off both wings and you'll see what I mean.

Regards

Mike

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 03:07 PM
The FW-190 was able to take just as much - or more damage than the 190.

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 06:57 PM
I agree the i16 i153 and il2s are the strongest birds in the game

190s 109s p47s are extremely weak compaired to them

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 08:24 PM
Lots of times I agree with you Spitter, but I disagree about the FW-190. It is by far the toughest plane in the game, nothing is even close IMHO. Everyone I play with feels the same way too. Of course this excludes the 1 shot and the wing comes off thing, but then again next time I'll put 40 cannon rounds in it and get nothing. The FW-190 is made of concrete, no doubt. Second worst is Macci-202 IMHO. Then comes Rata, I-153, and Yaks. I think P-47, IL-2 and La-5/7 have excellent damage models just as an example.

http://www.mucheswarbirds.com/image90.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:44 AM
1) The name of that plane is MACCHI no Macci!!!!!!!


2) When you talk about AI planes always remeber the damage profile and flying model of them are very approssimative and you can' t compare it with a flyable plane.

3) The MACCHI 202 was fast like a BF109 F4 but more agile,unfortunatly The weapons of that plane were very poor ( first serie just two 12,7) . In the Macchi series ( 200,202,205) just the last one had two 20mm cannons and two machine gus of 12,7, but it never flew on the est front, only on Mediterraneo area.

4) It 's a long time people are asking to Oleg to have the Macchi 202 flyable and i hope we will have it soon. In this moment one guy is working on that plane and the cockpit is ready at 70%.

Best regards

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:42 AM
I think it is a bug. Since it has in-line engine, it should smoke once the radiator is hit.

Anyhow, the real penicillin for Mc202 is Curtiss P-40. I once managed to saw both Mc202 wings off at the same time! What a sight...

Best,
Kursula