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Codger1949
09-15-2008, 10:26 AM
I just tried Warbirds. I don't recommend it. After just under two weeks of their free month trial I said, "Blech."

Compared to Il-2 it is just pathetic. I really don't know how these WW2 planes flew but I do know the spin characteristics of one plane, after reading these forums and doing a little research, and that is the P-39. From what I heard, after extensive testing by the Russians, it was recommended to bail out if you got into a spin. In Il-2 one could quickly discover why. If you're below 10,000 (this is what I played with) the chances of recovering from a spin are slim. BUT, in Warbirds I could EASILY recover from a spin after a couple of turns just by letting the controls go. That was a deal killer. If the Warbirds owner, who happens to be a retired Air Force colonel with over 4000 hrs in fighter aircraft (post ww2), got that one wrong, what else did he miss? And besides the graphics and cockpits are really weak. So much for my infidelity, I'm back for good. Tired of dating trailer trash when I can go out with a real classy lady. Don't mean to offend any Warbird fans here. Just my humble opinion.

Codger1949
09-15-2008, 10:26 AM
I just tried Warbirds. I don't recommend it. After just under two weeks of their free month trial I said, "Blech."

Compared to Il-2 it is just pathetic. I really don't know how these WW2 planes flew but I do know the spin characteristics of one plane, after reading these forums and doing a little research, and that is the P-39. From what I heard, after extensive testing by the Russians, it was recommended to bail out if you got into a spin. In Il-2 one could quickly discover why. If you're below 10,000 (this is what I played with) the chances of recovering from a spin are slim. BUT, in Warbirds I could EASILY recover from a spin after a couple of turns just by letting the controls go. That was a deal killer. If the Warbirds owner, who happens to be a retired Air Force colonel with over 4000 hrs in fighter aircraft (post ww2), got that one wrong, what else did he miss? And besides the graphics and cockpits are really weak. So much for my infidelity, I'm back for good. Tired of dating trailer trash when I can go out with a real classy lady. Don't mean to offend any Warbird fans here. Just my humble opinion.

SeaFireLIV
09-15-2008, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Codger1949:
From what I heard, after extensive testing by the Russians... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you see, so many see the Russians as evil scum that they`d rather ignore reports from them and do their own thing. It wouldn`t surprise me if anti-Russian bias played a part there.

I agree with you. In fact, some believe that the P39 should be even more stally than it is in IL2.

HayateAce
09-15-2008, 10:51 AM
One reply old and the thread has gone bias.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Nice work.

rnzoli
09-16-2008, 09:22 AM
where's that P39 instructional video when you need it?

IIRC, it shows a spinning P-39 (@5000m) and explains that the plane can be taken out spins without much trouble. Of course, I don't know which version it refers to (Q? N?)

Codger1949
09-16-2008, 09:39 AM
I wish somebody knew where that video was?

rnzoli
09-16-2008, 01:28 PM
I found it for you:
Flying the P-39 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1335141778279527517&ei=nALQSIHzNoqWiQKTqbjEAg&q=P-39)

Fast forward to 9:00 and 13:00, where the stalls are excellently explained and demonstrated with the real aircraft

Nowhere I hear "bail out during stall" from the instructor or the student http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Instead you will hear this:

"The airplane stalled very gently and had no tendency to drop a wing. There was plenty of warnings before she stalled completely."

"There was a definite change in the feel of controls just preceding the stalling conditions. I could feel the buffeting of the tail and the whole airframe shattered"

"Occasionally, I let her stall some, but it was easy to recover. The airplane unstalled quickly."

".. I spun out of the inside of the turn. It caught me unaware as it must have been a couple of turns before I started to recover. She responded promptly. "

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">"In the P-39, as in most airplaines, a spin is easily and quickly recovered from, if not permitted to progress too far. " </span>

Of course read within context - this is from an official instructional video. However, it's a good demonstration that the stall characteristics of the P-39 weren't so extremely bad.

Codger1949
09-16-2008, 02:14 PM
Interesting video. Thanks.

Yes, the stall characteristics appear to be fairly gentle; it's the spin which is murderous, at least in Il-2. In Warbirds I deliberately accelerated the spin and let it go on for quite some time but still recovered very easily merely by releasing the controls, which isn't a typical spin recovery technique, at least in general aviation planes. And it came right out of the spin. That procedure would just get you a hands free ride to the dirt in Il-2.

So, I guess the truth lies somewhere in between. Any 90 year P-39 stick jockeys out there?

OMK_Hand
09-16-2008, 05:03 PM
Hi Codger1949.

This from "Pilot's flight operating instructions for Army model P39Q-1 Airplane."

"Deliberate spinning is not recommended. However, if a spin occurs, rapid recovery can be made as follows:

Prerecovery.
1) Throttle must be off.
2) Propeller control must be in low rpm position.
3) Stick full back.

Recovery.
1) Apply full opposite rudder when spin is at its slowest.
2) Wait until rudder effect is noticeable, then apply full forward stick and ailerons against the spin regardless of ammunition load in the wings.

The spin is usually oscillatory in rate, and it is mandatory that the opposite rudder be applied when the spin is at its slowest.

If the procedure is followed, the airplane will recover in one-half turn. If the procedure is not followed closely, the airplane may not recover."

Very precise.

The game recovery is different:

Throttle closed.
Flaps full.
Stick full forward and full in the direction of the spin.
Rudder full opposite to the spin.

yet equally precise.

In both cases, failure to react in an appropriate manner results in catastrophe. In this respect at least, the game reflects the reality? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Codger1949
09-16-2008, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OMK_Hand:

The game recovery is different:

Throttle closed.
Flaps full.
Stick full forward and full in the direction of the spin.
Rudder full opposite to the spin.

yet equally precise.

In both cases, failure to react in an appropriate manner results in catastrophe. In this respect at least, the game reflects the reality? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. Isn't that bizzare, applying aileron towards the turn? Hey, whatever works, right?

I remember a flight instructor who told me the time he got in a flat spin with a student in a c-150 He was doing a lot of desperate things to disrupt the cg and airflow, like sliding their seats forward and opening the doors and dropping flaps. Musta worked.

OMK_Hand
09-16-2008, 05:34 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Bearcat99
09-16-2008, 05:59 PM
The P-39 in the original IL2 was probably closest to the real thing..

Codger.. what... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif You thought we were just being overly partial to this sim when we told you that Warbirds was a poor excuse for a sim?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Live & learn eh.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

We nay be a somewhat fanatical bunch over here about this sim, but it is with good reason. To date there still isnt a better WWII sim available. Warts and all.. and the mods have done a lot to smooth out some of those warts.

WTE_Galway
09-16-2008, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The P-39 in the original IL2 was probably closest to the real thing.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh yes .. that was evil

In the original it did not even need to be a flat spin for it to be almost unrecoverable.

An inverted flat spin, just forget it.

Codger1949
09-16-2008, 06:31 PM
Bearcat99.

After all my philandering around I've concluded that you could not have written more truer words.

I even checked out Fighter Ace. That used to be a Microsoft game. But it doesn't even have Trackir support.

I just got a little disillusioned with open pit dogfight servers, although I really enjoy dogfighting.

LEXX_Luthor
09-16-2008, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If the Warbirds owner, who happens to be a retired Air Force colonel with over 4000 hrs in fighter aircraft (post ww2), got that one wrong, what else did he miss? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bah, we had one "real life" post-modern fighter pilot here tell us that Oleg should not include oxygen effects in pilot fatigue modelling because... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ... nobody flies at high altitude in this sim! You can't argue with that logic. At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option.

Anyways, I would guess the goal behind Warbirds is for mass numbers of players. Is that Correct Thinking? And its an old sim. Oleg could blow all the massive multi Pay-To-Play sims out of the air if he wants to.