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Hanglands
09-21-2006, 01:17 PM
I went to the Shuttleworth Collection the other day and was quite surprised to see a Sopwith Pup with rockets. Maybe its old news, butId never seen rockets like this on a biplane.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/LePrieurrockets.jpg

Air-to-air incendiary rockets apparently, for use against Zepps (though not successfuly), and observation ballons. Probably available over the counter at your local newsagents around about the end of October, and beginning of November.

LEBillfish
09-21-2006, 01:21 PM
They're for one of the most important and dangerous jobs a WWI fighter could do, balloon busting. The Artillery spotting balloons filled with hydrogen......Think of mini Hindenbergs, bullets alone would just poke tiny holes in it doing nothing......Incindiary rounds were developed for that very reason.

Also, balloon spotters were the ones given parachutes......

StG2_Schlachter
09-21-2006, 01:45 PM
Remember chemistry classes LEBillfish. Bullets will do quite a bit if they pierced the hull of the ballon. If hydrogen and oxygen get together there will be a rather large explosion.

Platypus_1.JaVA
09-21-2006, 01:52 PM
I feel one of Raaaids theories coming up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

stathem
09-21-2006, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
Remember chemistry classes LEBillfish. Bullets will do quite a bit if they pierced the hull of the ballon. If hydrogen and oxygen get together there will be a rather large explosion.

Only when you have close to a stoicimetric mixture.

triad773
09-21-2006, 02:02 PM
I seem to remember that hydrogen, just leaking would not be combustable: as hydrogen in also natural in the environment (e.g., H20, H3, etc).

It's the incindiary element that makes it go BOOM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Hanglands
09-21-2006, 02:03 PM
So, how come these rockets were successful against observation balloons, but not against the Zepps?

WB_Outlaw
09-21-2006, 02:24 PM
Hydrogen and air (only 20% O2) will not ignite spontaneously. It requires an ignition source.

Those rockets would successfully down any hydrogen filled gas bag of the day, if it could hit it.

--Outlaw.

leitmotiv
09-21-2006, 02:58 PM
See Douglas Robinson's THE ZEPPELIN IN COMBAT---ordinary ball (solid shot) ammunition just holed the gas bags inside the zep's envelope. The holes were small and easily patched by the zep crews in battle. Explosive rounds did a little better because they blew big holes in the bags which were difficult for crewmen to patch. Neither of the above caused hydrogen blasts. The introduction of incendiary ammunition in 1916 was devastating to the zeps---these rounds did blow up the hydrogen gas bags when they hit them. Rockets were probably ruled out as effective against zeps because any zep could climb fast straight up by dropping ballast and an airplane with rockets probably handled like a pig.

Waldo.Pepper
09-21-2006, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
See Douglas Robinson's THE ZEPPELIN IN COMBAT---ordinary ball (solid shot) ammunition just holed the gas bags inside the zep's envelope. The holes were small and easily patched by the zep crews in battle. Explosive rounds did a little better because they blew big holes in the bags which were difficult for crewmen to patch. Neither of the above caused hydrogen blasts. The introduction of incendiary ammunition in 1916 was devastating to the zeps---these rounds did blow up the hydrogen gas bags when they hit them. Rockets were probably ruled out as effective against zeps because any zep could climb fast straight up by dropping ballast and an airplane with rockets probably handled like a pig.

You beat me to it!

If memory serves the ammunition was banned by treaty but the Allies used it anyway. I think it was code-named Manchester by RFC RNAS, higher-ups and was also widely used against balloons.

leitmotiv
09-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Can't recall---it's all there in Robinson in great detail. Alas, my copy is inaccessible right now. Oh, I would like commanding a zep in KNIGHTS!---I hope they have one. The zep in OVER FLANDERS FIELDS is completely "toy."

whiteladder
09-22-2006, 02:21 AM
Thought I might post this again.

I took the kids to the first airshow of the season at the Shuttleworth collection near where we live, We had a great day out and took some Video down on the flight line which I thought some might like to see. I will post the link to the low res version now and the high res verson when it has finished uploading.




http://www.archive.org/download/WhiteladderShuttleworth...owlowres/shuttle.wmv (http://www.archive.org/download/WhiteladderShuttleworthairsshowlowres/shuttle.wmv) 14.5 MB just right click and save as or left click to stream.

http://www.archive.org/download/WhiteladderShuttleworth...es_0/shuttlehigh.wmv (http://www.archive.org/download/WhiteladderShuttleworthHighRes_0/shuttlehigh.wmv) 77Mb highres version

Also available from Whiteladder productions

Tribute to the men of the 8th airforce:

http://www.archive.org/download/WhiteladderTributetribu...v_0/tribute_0001.wmv (http://www.archive.org/download/WhiteladderTributetribute0001wmv_0/tribute_0001.wmv)

Kokoda Trial from last year:

http://www.archive.org/download/MarkBroughtonTheTrail_0/newstart.avi

WTE_Googly
09-22-2006, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
See Douglas Robinson's THE ZEPPELIN IN COMBAT---ordinary ball (solid shot) ammunition just holed the gas bags inside the zep's envelope. The holes were small and easily patched by the zep crews in battle. Explosive rounds did a little better because they blew big holes in the bags which were difficult for crewmen to patch. Neither of the above caused hydrogen blasts. The introduction of incendiary ammunition in 1916 was devastating to the zeps---these rounds did blow up the hydrogen gas bags when they hit them. Rockets were probably ruled out as effective against zeps because any zep could climb fast straight up by dropping ballast and an airplane with rockets probably handled like a pig.

You beat me to it!

If memory serves the ammunition was banned by treaty but the Allies used it anyway. I think it was code-named Manchester by RFC RNAS, higher-ups and was also widely used against balloons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buckingham I think, and I believe you needed to carry written orders for balloon busting in order to carry them.

At least thats what Biggles taught me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

leitmotiv
09-22-2006, 05:18 AM
You are verified by the Beeb, Googly!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A912124

F19_Olli72
09-22-2006, 05:46 AM
A little info on balloon busting aces:

The leading balloon busting ace was a belgian: Willy Coppens, Baron d'Houthulst with 35 balloons. Fritz R├┬Âth (german) got most in one day with 5 (20 total in score). There were 2 canadians, William G Barker and Harold B Hudson of 28 sqn who also got 5 in a day (but shared between them) at Fossmerlo 12th february 1918.

From "Balloon busting aces of WW1" by Jon Guttman.

Also the book states that "Coppens managed to wangle an allotment of 20 incendiary rounds a month from his superiors, four of which he installed in his ammunition belt for each mission."