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FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 12:40 PM
No, I still love my Mustang, but to prevail you need to understand your enemy too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AFAIK you fly a 190 just like a Mustang, high and fast, BnZ, disengage when thing goes wrong... so I put it at a lower priority, and hop on a 109 first.

There are so many 109, really don't know how to choose among them...(anyone can give me some suggestion?) finally I picked a 109G6/AS with MK108, here we go!

lol, I must be a complete noob on a 109!!! I fried 5 engines in a row! finally figured out how to handle PP (lol, I just give up and leave it at auto) and MW50, and I can take off at least.

it is not long before a Mustang bounced me from altitute, and worse I am alone. Mustang is my main ride, and in this situation I know there will be no escape for me on this poor 109. But anyway it is a great opporunity for me to learn from the opposite prespective...

I tried to copy what a good 109 pilot would do to throw off my aim when I am on a Mustang. I tried a break turn when he come down and just in range, it worked for the first time, as he was so fast and certainly overshooted. The second one was ok, but marginal, I got one hit on my wing. Then the third time, he got a long burst on me.... Longer than any burst I can make on a Mustang... I am sure he actually throttled back to follow my turn.... and I have never tried that on a Mustang.

He killed me nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is a good tactics.... What I am sure is that it is not a wise move to stay low and slow in a Mustang. I bet he couldn't make it back home http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Refly, and flied all the way to the the enemy base with a He111. A Mustang came in and bounced the bomber... he didn't see me, and I moved in.... just before I shoot, I ran out of fuel!!!! What an uber noob I was...I took 25% fuel only, that is what I did on a Mustang... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Refly again, flied to another base and saw some vulcher there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif Caught a P-38 after he strafed someone on the runway...He saw me and tried to evase, but failed. Finally I have a opporunity to shoot!!! After one hour for flying!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

The first burst missed but the second one blowed away its starboard engine completely!!! wow! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I thought it was dead so I let it go, but it wasn't, so I resume my pursuit... 2 more MK108 hit, but he was still flying... At this moment a spit come it and blow off my wing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif and then, Deathkick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I used that 5 minutes to recap, and when I came back again I feel I have much better confidence... Indeed it was. Meet the same gangs of vulcher again, This time I have the E advantage. I saw multiple spit under me, and I picked one who was attacking my buddy. He saw me and pulled up sharply... This gave me a big area to shoot at.... I didn't hestiate and gave in one MK108 shell.... and BOOM !!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif It exploded right in front of me!

By this way I got 4 kills in 5 minutes, it exceeded even my wildness imagination. Not bad for a noob, who even can't take off one hour earlier, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif No wonder there are so many 109 flyers online, it is such a easy plane to get kill with... But once someone with E advantage show up, 109 is really in big trouble. And E advantage is indeed not quite useful for a 109, actually it need to be slowed down to be competitve...

Next time I will try to fly high, hope I can meet some Mustangs Co-Alt Co-E... Let's see how they handle me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 12:40 PM
No, I still love my Mustang, but to prevail you need to understand your enemy too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AFAIK you fly a 190 just like a Mustang, high and fast, BnZ, disengage when thing goes wrong... so I put it at a lower priority, and hop on a 109 first.

There are so many 109, really don't know how to choose among them...(anyone can give me some suggestion?) finally I picked a 109G6/AS with MK108, here we go!

lol, I must be a complete noob on a 109!!! I fried 5 engines in a row! finally figured out how to handle PP (lol, I just give up and leave it at auto) and MW50, and I can take off at least.

it is not long before a Mustang bounced me from altitute, and worse I am alone. Mustang is my main ride, and in this situation I know there will be no escape for me on this poor 109. But anyway it is a great opporunity for me to learn from the opposite prespective...

I tried to copy what a good 109 pilot would do to throw off my aim when I am on a Mustang. I tried a break turn when he come down and just in range, it worked for the first time, as he was so fast and certainly overshooted. The second one was ok, but marginal, I got one hit on my wing. Then the third time, he got a long burst on me.... Longer than any burst I can make on a Mustang... I am sure he actually throttled back to follow my turn.... and I have never tried that on a Mustang.

He killed me nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is a good tactics.... What I am sure is that it is not a wise move to stay low and slow in a Mustang. I bet he couldn't make it back home http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Refly, and flied all the way to the the enemy base with a He111. A Mustang came in and bounced the bomber... he didn't see me, and I moved in.... just before I shoot, I ran out of fuel!!!! What an uber noob I was...I took 25% fuel only, that is what I did on a Mustang... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Refly again, flied to another base and saw some vulcher there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif Caught a P-38 after he strafed someone on the runway...He saw me and tried to evase, but failed. Finally I have a opporunity to shoot!!! After one hour for flying!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

The first burst missed but the second one blowed away its starboard engine completely!!! wow! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I thought it was dead so I let it go, but it wasn't, so I resume my pursuit... 2 more MK108 hit, but he was still flying... At this moment a spit come it and blow off my wing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif and then, Deathkick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I used that 5 minutes to recap, and when I came back again I feel I have much better confidence... Indeed it was. Meet the same gangs of vulcher again, This time I have the E advantage. I saw multiple spit under me, and I picked one who was attacking my buddy. He saw me and pulled up sharply... This gave me a big area to shoot at.... I didn't hestiate and gave in one MK108 shell.... and BOOM !!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif It exploded right in front of me!

By this way I got 4 kills in 5 minutes, it exceeded even my wildness imagination. Not bad for a noob, who even can't take off one hour earlier, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif No wonder there are so many 109 flyers online, it is such a easy plane to get kill with... But once someone with E advantage show up, 109 is really in big trouble. And E advantage is indeed not quite useful for a 109, actually it need to be slowed down to be competitve...

Next time I will try to fly high, hope I can meet some Mustangs Co-Alt Co-E... Let's see how they handle me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
01-05-2005, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No wonder there are so many 109 flyers online, it is such a easy plane to get kill with <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Indeed the BF-109K4 is one of the greats http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

You should fly German more often.. no need to have a virtual loyalty to only 1 colour http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Indeed the BF-109K4 is one of the greats http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

You should fly German more often.. no need to have a virtual loyalty to only 1 colour http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh, more Robin's follower? lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I really love Mustang, if it was actually a LW plane I think I would be a regular blue flyer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

faustnik
01-05-2005, 12:50 PM
Ditch the Mk108. Try a 20mm armed Fw190 or Bf109. The Mk108s just takes the fun out of things IMHO.

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Ditch the Mk108. Try a 20mm armed Fw190 or Bf109. The Mk108s just takes the fun out of things IMHO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sarcasm? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

MEGILE
01-05-2005, 12:54 PM
No, I believe he is quite serious. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
01-05-2005, 01:10 PM
I am serious. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I really hate those mk108s. (Yeah, I know, I'm always saying the Mg151/20 is too weak, but that's another story). The Mk108s make P-47 as weak as a Spitfire. One shot = 1 kill. The Cobra has a big gun too, but, it has a slow ROF and poor trajectory. The Mk108 has a high ROF and better (for some reason) trajectory.

I design a lot of scripted DF server for competition with another squad, and Mk108s make it very difficult. P-47 and P-38 jabos are instantly obliterated by the nosehowitzer making it very tough for the reds to achieve ground objectives. The Mk108 changes the balance of a server completely.

Gibbage1
01-05-2005, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
The Mk108 changes the balance of a server completely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I fully agree with. I wish there was a way in IL2 to limit loadouts. Its ultra rare I ever find a 109 NOT armed with Mk-108 or 108 gunpods. Every other gun you need to work for your kill.

LStarosta
01-05-2005, 01:23 PM
I don't like the MK108's much either. And I dislike the stiff rudders on most 109's especially the 109K4. I prefer the Fw190A and also the D.

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I am serious. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I really hate those mk108s. (Yeah, I know, I'm always saying the Mg151/20 is too weak, but that's another story). The Mk108s make P-47 as weak as a Spitfire. One shot = 1 kill. The Cobra has a big gun too, but, it has a slow ROF and poor trajectory. The Mk108 has a high ROF and better (for some reason) trajectory.

I design a lot of scripted DF server for competition with another squad, and Mk108s make it very difficult. P-47 and P-38 jabos are instantly obliterated by the nosehowitzer making it very tough for the reds to achieve ground objectives. The Mk108 changes the balance of a server completely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You shouldn't blame MK108 for that.... this gun is only effective within 100M, outside that you can't possibly hit a moving target, or you are lucky.... and with so limited ammo, it is downright stupid trying to shoot at that range.

And with proper fighter cover, 109 don't even have a chance coming close enough for a shot. Just ask the ground-pounding guys to stay claim and fly striaght, and let those Mustangs up high to line up their bounce.

Of course, all the above a@@ume the blue guys are totally unorganized. Use some 190s up high to keep the fighter busy, and let the 109s kill the jabo guys... But you can see my point, it is all about tactics, weapons are important but they come second.

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 01:35 PM
but I do believe the MK108 are too easy to use in game.... IRL it is a nasty gun with tons of recoil.... but we don't get it in this game... what we have is some funny shake only...

OldMan____
01-05-2005, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
but I do believe the MK108 are too easy to use in game.... IRL it is a nasty gun with tons of recoil.... but we don't get it in this game... what we have is some funny shake only... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in fact Mk108 impulse (the recoil ) is smaller than full weapon set of most american fighters combined.. pretty easy to calculate that. Also with a much superior placement.. not strange it doesn't shake much.


Problem with Mk108 selection is.. you ONLY can use it on later 109. If oleg enables 20mm on G10 and G14.. you would see some less Mk108

MEGILE
01-05-2005, 02:12 PM
I don't mind the 108s personaly.. if he is on your 6 and shoots at you, you deserve to die. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Out of curiosity, how much was the nose cannon used in real life? Were all late 109s loaded up with it?

PBNA-Boosher
01-05-2005, 02:13 PM
HAHA! I got here before Sir.Robin or Little.John!

Da P-40 ROXORZ!

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
in fact Mk108 impulse (the recoil ) is smaller than full weapon set of most american fighters combined.. pretty easy to calculate that. Also with a much superior placement.. not strange it doesn't shake much.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you need to take into account about the weight of the plane... IIRC Pony and Jug are much heavier than a BF109... even a FW190.

and someone mentioned that the 0.50s were fired 2 by 2, instead of all 6/8 at once which we have in this game.... should cause some significant difference.

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:

Out of curiosity, how much was the nose cannon used in real life? Were all late 109s loaded up with it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Osprey book said some experten prefer 20mm when they were assigned to take on escort fighters.

it is strange that in game 109 seem to be a better bomber interceptor than a 190, mainly due to the 30mm/20mm firepower issue..... it is a little bit extreme comment, but it seem to me that 1 MK108 is better than 4 MG151/20... IRL 190 should be the plane bomber crews fear the most...

F19_Ob
01-05-2005, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
it is strange that in game 109 seem to be a better bomber interceptor than a 190, mainly due to the 30mm/20mm firepower issue..... it is a little bit extreme comment, but it seem to me that 1 MK108 is better than 4 MG151/20... IRL 190 should be the plane bomber crews fear the most... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well actually they feared all german fighters but 20mm rounds had less impact and often did not hit same spot. The bigger blast of a mk108 could rip huge parts of a bomber on every hit. That and the sound of the cannons made allied crews a bit shaky (or a lot).
Im still quite sure that no allied bomber liked the sight of a fw190 coming in, even if it had default armament.

FatBoyHK
01-05-2005, 02:51 PM
lol, it is not my intention to discuss LW weapon in this thread, I actually want to discuss the Mustang vs BF109 matchup, I hope someone can enlight me with some hint...

but it is an equally interesting thread now, nonetheless http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG5_UnKle
01-05-2005, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
The Mk108 changes the balance of a server completely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I fully agree with. I wish there was a way in IL2 to limit loadouts. Its ultra rare I ever find a 109 NOT armed with Mk-108 or 108 gunpods. Every other gun you need to work for your kill. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can limit loadouts.......
In a COOP http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

F19_Ob
01-05-2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
but I do believe the MK108 are too easy to use in game.... IRL it is a nasty gun with tons of recoil.... but we don't get it in this game... what we have is some funny shake only... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The cannon recoiled in its own structure and did not affect the plane as much as many other aircraft cannons did although the pilots clearly felt it.
The whole idea was that it should be easy. One hit one kill.
Problem were that the inexperienced had to come very close to use it while only experts could use it on longer ranges.
The fast firing gives good results in spraying on long ranges if one knows the deflection angles well.

I flew the 109's a long time and it was absolutely possible to hit on and around 500m on frequent basis with 30mm.
Now I prefer to hunt them down in my il-2 (LoL)
I also get a lot of fresh air in the process.

-----------------------------------

109 vs p51 is very equal but I think u have already got the idea. Stay high and fast and u have an advantage. slow and low it will be the messer.
Although its possible to turn inside a 109 on some occasions when he detects u too late on an advantage angle for example, but that can even be done with an p47 or a heavy il-2.
The thing that makes the 109 so dangerous in slowspeed is not so much the turning but its accelleration and climb aswell as goodnatured stall.
If I got a p51 slow I knew that I would be able to outclimb him in scissoring or just climb and he would have to drop away, and low that is bad.
I usually got him.
When flying mustangs I also try to stay fast and start firing from long ranges 600m to damage.
I have lost my speed to save friendlys with an enemy on six but then it will take a while to get energy back. A truly difficult and unpleasant situation.

The real pilots joked that it took half the way to germany to climb to proper altitude.
So u got it right from start. stay high and fast and u have the best startingpoint.
Its really possible to do well low and fast aswell but the enemy above will have the edge because of the poorer climb from slow speeds in p51.

well.... works for me.

LStarosta
01-05-2005, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
but I do believe the MK108 are too easy to use in game.... IRL it is a nasty gun with tons of recoil.... but we don't get it in this game... what we have is some funny shake only... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>\


LOL. MK108 easy to use? That's something new.

Airmail109
01-05-2005, 05:20 PM
the only plane i can defeat Migs, Las, and Spits in is a 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

OldMan____
01-05-2005, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimail101:
the only plane i can defeat Migs, Las, and Spits in is a 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well I can defeat any of those in a FW and many people say is one of worst planes in game. So.. this says NOTHING.

I cannot shot down a buterfly while in a bf109.. but I feel confident to face ANY enemy in a 190. So ... its just about how you know the plane.

JG7_Rall
01-05-2005, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
I don't mind the 108s personaly.. if he is on your 6 and shoots at you, you deserve to die. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Out of curiosity, how much was the nose cannon used in real life? Were all late 109s loaded up with it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Germans rarely used them on their 109's except when the 190's weren't available to take out the bombers. In that case they were fitted with the Mk 108. However, the 109's were usually fitted with the 20mm, as they were assigned to deal with the escort fighters while the A8's with the 2x Mk 108's took care of the bombers, at least in theory. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The reason we have the 109's armed with the 30mm is because we have the Hungarian version, which was much better built during the end of the war. This allowed Oleg to model the plane so it meets close to its full potential on paper. But, the Hungarians almost always used the Mk 108 on their late war 109's, that is why it is the only cannon on the G10 and up.

And btw, the Mk 108's recoil in real life wasn't bad. There was something on the cannon itself that reduced the recoil greatly, I just can't remember exactly what it was. Just because it sounds all big and bad doesn't mean its got a really high recoil.

FatBoy- you said something about the 109 being hopeless if the mustang has an alt advantage -- not true. There are many things you can do to make him bleed of his energy advantage -- when he chopped his throttle to turn with you, that caused him to lose A LOT of energy. Had you survived that BnZ, he would have had substantially less energy and soon enough, you would be co-e unless he ran away. Co-e with a mustang in a 109 is a piece of cake. Just keep practicing.

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
FatBoy- you said something about the 109 being hopeless if the mustang has an alt advantage -- not true. There are many things you can do to make him bleed of his energy advantage -- when he chopped his throttle to turn with you, that caused him to lose A LOT of energy. Had you survived that BnZ, he would have had substantially less energy and soon enough, you would be co-e unless he ran away. Co-e with a mustang in a 109 is a piece of cake. Just keep practicing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and No. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A smart pony pilot will not slow down to get a shot. If I can't get into a good position, I would zoom up and try again, instead of mixing up with him.

But it was indeed my plan to try to drag him down. I was successful for the most of my planning, I just failed short in the last bounce. Should I made it, I am sure I can win... Yes I am still noob on a 109, don't know how to use it to its extreme, especailly its turn performance, but I think I can do that soon

(or may be I am too obessed to the Mustang? lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 02:37 AM
regarding how to turn a 109, may be because I fly Mustang for quite a long time, I really lose my skill in this department... you know, on a Mustang, tight turning is not the best move in most circumstances http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

So I just pull back the stick as hard as I can, till the edge of stall or blackout? Any special thing I need to keep in mind? What I should NOT do?

Fehler
01-06-2005, 02:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
but I do believe the MK108 are too easy to use in game.... IRL it is a nasty gun with tons of recoil.... but we don't get it in this game... what we have is some funny shake only... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A poor myth, repeated over and over here. The truth is that the gun had very little recoil compared to it's large bore counterparts.

Here is some good reading for you to understand why and how this could possibly be. Pay particular attention to the selection that says, "An interesting feature was that neither the barrel or receiver moved in recoil, the entire force of firing was absorbed by the rearward movement of the bolt against the driving springs, which buffered against the recoil"

Those springs were so heavy, in fact, that no locking mechanism was needed for the bolt to set into the firing chamber. Take a look at today's modern machine guns and assault rifles, and you will see that they have locking lugs to ensure there is no blow-back at the chamber.

I am sorry to disappoint some of you, but the MK108 Rheinmetall-Borsig was a great weapon with very little recoil (Respectively).

http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html

WOLFMondo
01-06-2005, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:

Out of curiosity, how much was the nose cannon used in real life? Were all late 109s loaded up with it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Osprey book said some experten prefer 20mm when they were assigned to take on escort fighters.

it is strange that in game 109 seem to be a better bomber interceptor than a 190, mainly due to the 30mm/20mm firepower issue..... it is a little bit extreme comment, but it seem to me that 1 MK108 is better than 4 MG151/20... IRL 190 should be the plane bomber crews fear the most... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't say thats totally true, the 190A's have the firepower and the armour to take on bombers, the A9 with 2 Mk108's and 20mm's is devestating vs B25's and A20's. I feel much safer in one of those taking on a bomber than a 109 with its 1 Mk108, pea shooters and inline engine.

dieg777
01-06-2005, 02:48 AM
here is some real life stories about 109s

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/#fighting


I like the 109 she is a good all rounder and with the later cockpits has good visability. Prefer the 20mm to 30mm cannons as 30mm seem to have " funny" trajectory
and I find the RIVI gunsite harder to line up than those in spitfires and hurris but thats probably because Im a lousy shot anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Some engine tips that I have found useful
Keep engine management on auto as its too easy to fry their engines especially in a dive
Put the MW50 on before starting engine or if you forget chop throttle to below 25 per cent then switch on and throttle up and you should be ok
As soon as overheat warning comes on then get below 100 % and open radiator or engine will fry quickly
Fly with radiator open but close it in a fight as it is vunerable. close it in a chase as it does seem to drag a bit


hope this is useful

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 02:49 AM
Thx Fehler, I learn something new here every day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

karost
01-06-2005, 03:58 AM
Hi,

for turning in 109

last night I take one friend La5F down with out lose any ammo , he is very good , but I can take my 109G6 turn batter and inside him !!!..? how ?
... well most 109 turn in a vertical turn right ? I take fule 100% and made vertical-revers turn at altitude 500 meter so when I pull up 80 degree from 200 meter then make a revers at top of my edge stall .. 109 revers fast nose down to ground so I have more time to open flap and gentle pull up turn inside him ... so he see that then he try to do the same thing like I did but....LOL his nose drop too late then he have no time enought to pull up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


long time , I like to load fuel 75% in 109 when join DF-Server, but I change to take fuel at 100% ... why?
if I have mk108 , I/we will fly high and manage hi-speed attack , so

phase one fly high : I have to lose 25% of fuel to climb up at 6.5k
phase two hi-speed attack : mostly I like to fly over opponent air base and detect a moving dot below but after hit my target with one bunce , then run like he11 direct line to my base or sun , I will never turn ( again ) after hit coz they have a radio TS ..! , but if I can not run away from red friends , I will check map and radio request help at the localtion that I will convert to the low altitude aircombat .
phase three low altitude air combat : Yes..! if you like this tactic just make more altitude enought for bail out save http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

oh... one thing FatBoyHK , I need you help , coz your are our new member.
just try to take 109 with mg151/20 and manage your combat and tell us how it fun ?


ps : if we need to lock mk-108 for concern a history I agree ,but please fix mg151/20 first

S!

F19_Ob
01-06-2005, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
regarding how to turn a 109, may be because I fly Mustang for quite a long time, I really lose my skill in this department... you know, on a Mustang, tight turning is not the best move in most circumstances http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

So I just pull back the stick as hard as I can, till the edge of stall or blackout? Any special thing I need to keep in mind? What I should NOT do? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In a p51 I try not to end up slow but with altitude I can use the Energy to do pretty sharp turns to turn inside a 109 for enough time to do a snap shot.
I know that a 109 drivers primary goal is to drag me in to a turnfight, and although I could win by throttling down and turn inside the 109 I would be a good target unable to outurn the next 109 with his 30mm.

The Trick to fly a 109 is to know abouts its accelleration and climb aswell as big punch.
I used to trhottle down from highest speed to catch an enemy by breaking hard after him and thus be able to turn inside the p51 (or any late plane) and one hit to cripple or kill.
The goodnatured stall is whats allows u to do this and many allied planes cant declerate as quickly.
Then with good accelleration u are soon back in high speed even from zero speed.
Thats the reason for being careful with 109's low.
What not to do in 109's is the same as many others = U are better off with Energy.
Only experienced can hit with mk108 beyond 400m because of the great deflection needed,
but the faster trajectory in P51 mg's enables hits well up to 5-600m.


As 109 to let a p51 on his rearquarter is dangerous although the 109 would outturn him in longer run.
The problem I think u described is when a p51 takes risks and declerates to turn inside the 109, and it can do a good couple of turns before the 109 gains the advantage of lowspeed handling, and one good turn can be enough to shoot down or damage a 109 out of fighting condition.
------------------------------------

Even If u are not to familiar with the 109 now, the knowledge u aquire flying it will give u insight of its capabilities, and thats an advantage to know the enemy.

I fly all planes I get my hands on online and often fight in planes I'm unfamiliar in, but because I have flown most I also know the opposition quite well and after some sorties I get the deflectionshooting working aswell.
I think the deflectionshooting suffers most when u constantly switch planes, because of the different feeling, trajectories and strenghts.

But that doesnt matter when u have fun.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tigertalon
01-06-2005, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
No, I still love my Mustang, but to prevail you need to understand your enemy too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AFAIK you fly a 190 just like a Mustang, high and fast, BnZ, disengage when thing goes wrong... so I put it at a lower priority, and hop on a 109 first.

There are so many 109, really don't know how to choose among them...(anyone can give me some suggestion?) finally I picked a 109G6/AS with MK108, here we go!

lol, I must be a complete noob on a 109!!! I fried 5 engines in a row! finally figured out how to handle PP (lol, I just give up and leave it at auto) and MW50, and I can take off at least.

it is not long before a Mustang bounced me from altitute, and worse I am alone. Mustang is my main ride, and in this situation I know there will be no escape for me on this poor 109. But anyway it is a great opporunity for me to learn from the opposite prespective...

I tried to copy what a good 109 pilot would do to throw off my aim when I am on a Mustang. I tried a break turn when he come down and just in range, it worked for the first time, as he was so fast and certainly overshooted. The second one was ok, but marginal, I got one hit on my wing. Then the third time, he got a long burst on me.... Longer than any burst I can make on a Mustang... I am sure he actually throttled back to follow my turn.... and I have never tried that on a Mustang.

He killed me nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is a good tactics.... What I am sure is that it is not a wise move to stay low and slow in a Mustang. I bet he couldn't make it back home http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Refly, and flied all the way to the the enemy base with a He111. A Mustang came in and bounced the bomber... he didn't see me, and I moved in.... just before I shoot, I ran out of fuel!!!! What an uber noob I was...I took 25% fuel only, that is what I did on a Mustang... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Refly again, flied to another base and saw some vulcher there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif Caught a P-38 after he strafed someone on the runway...He saw me and tried to evase, but failed. Finally I have a opporunity to shoot!!! After one hour for flying!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

The first burst missed but the second one blowed away its starboard engine completely!!! wow! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I thought it was dead so I let it go, but it wasn't, so I resume my pursuit... 2 more MK108 hit, but he was still flying... At this moment a spit come it and blow off my wing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif and then, Deathkick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I used that 5 minutes to recap, and when I came back again I feel I have much better confidence... Indeed it was. Meet the same gangs of vulcher again, This time I have the E advantage. I saw multiple spit under me, and I picked one who was attacking my buddy. He saw me and pulled up sharply... This gave me a big area to shoot at.... I didn't hestiate and gave in one MK108 shell.... and BOOM !!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif It exploded right in front of me!

By this way I got 4 kills in 5 minutes, it exceeded even my wildness imagination. Not bad for a noob, who even can't take off one hour earlier, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif No wonder there are so many 109 flyers online, it is such a easy plane to get kill with... But once someone with E advantage show up, 109 is really in big trouble. And E advantage is indeed not quite useful for a 109, actually it need to be slowed down to be competitve...

Next time I will try to fly high, hope I can meet some Mustangs Co-Alt Co-E... Let's see how they handle me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, congratulations!

But, nonetheless, I'm with other guys, who hate Mk108. IMO, if I get a lucky shot with Mk108 and blow somebody to heaven, I do not feel the satisfaction. When flying 109s I usually choose Bf109G2. Yes it's armament is weak (two paintball peashooters + something which has a power of Tokarev TT-33 but is called Mg151/20 by mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif ), yes it is quite fragile, but it has reasonable speed and it is a good turner and climber. And P51s and La7s are my favourite targets! Yes it is hard to get on their tail, but once you are there, they will (should) not shake you! And after 5 minutes of 1v1 dogfight you fire your first bullets. You copy his every move, your focus is completely on him, you have to predict his moves as he is faster, you fire from time to time and, believe me, it is no greater satisfaction after such a victory.

Also, if you look at it from other side: if somebody, who you didn't even see 5 seconds ago, gets you with one 30mm hit, you just press refly, and that is it. But if you have a nasty bastard on your tail, trying to shake him for 5 minutes, geting pounded from time to time, sweating in your T-shirt, flying as wavy as you can and know, and finally crashing because of poor handling due to damage, you will feel respect for the other guy. At least I do.

falco_cz
01-06-2005, 05:33 AM
Good reading everyone! Actually I got a few "kills" in Me109G2 without even a shot fired, those Stangs/Spits probably thought me was flying in much hevier Me109G10/14 and were trying to mix close and personal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and did't cope with flat spins...
But this game is too time consuming and there is always *someone* above me to spoil my fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FlatSpinMan
01-06-2005, 05:34 AM
Fatboy_HK,
I always enjoy reading your posts.I started about a month or so before you so I can fully understand what you are experiencing and also learn a lot from your posts. I haven't had your success online yet(so I'm envious) but I always enjoy it.Anyway, I'm sure many noobs appreciate your posts.
By the way, what servers do you fly on? Me, I've tried a few but number greatergreen and RCAF among my favourites. I like Warclouds too but always encounter the winter maps where I can't even find the runways when I'm taking off.
hope to see you in the (un)friendly skies sometime!

PS My parents live in HK. Great city. I love visting it!

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlatSpinMan:
Fatboy_HK,
I always enjoy reading your posts.I started about a month or so before you so I can fully understand what you are experiencing and also learn a lot from your posts. I haven't had your success online yet(so I'm envious) but I always enjoy it.Anyway, I'm sure many noobs appreciate your posts.
By the way, what servers do you fly on? Me, I've tried a few but number greatergreen and RCAF among my favourites. I like Warclouds too but always encounter the winter maps where I can't even find the runways when I'm taking off.
hope to see you in the (un)friendly skies sometime!

PS My parents live in HK. Great city. I love visting it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi FlatSpinMan, S! so you are a chinese too?

I started flying online last month but before that I have already logged 10+ years of simming experience, which dated back to SWOTL, so I think I am not a complete noob, lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I fly on warclouds almost exclusively. With so many skilled pilot on it, it turbocharged my learning process. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I think I have some success, but my "productivity" is way too low at this moment... I need quite a big deal of advantage to get a kill, and I lose my advantage quite often. I need a whole night to rack up 5 kills on a Mustang... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I think the best quality I have now is to know when I should disengage, and the will of actually doing so, lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif So I rarely die, hence have a good kill-loss ratio.... but by no mean I am a great pilot... give me 3 more months, ok?

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by falco_cz:
Good reading everyone! Actually I got a few "kills" in Me109G2 without even a shot fired, those Stangs/Spits probably thought me was flying in much hevier Me109G10/14 and were trying to mix close and personal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and did't cope with flat spins...
But this game is too time consuming and there is always *someone* above me to spoil my fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, when I am on a Mustang I would certainly be one of the guys who tried hard to spoil you fun.... Pls forgive me, lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigertalon:
Also, if you look at it from other side: if somebody, who you didn't even see 5 seconds ago, gets you with one 30mm hit, you just press refly, and that is it. But if you have a nasty bastard on your tail, trying to shake him for 5 minutes, geting pounded from time to time, sweating in your T-shirt, flying as wavy as you can and know, and finally crashing because of poor handling due to damage, you will feel respect for the other guy. At least I do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are different. I love the feeling of cathcing someone completely off-guarded, and then gone out of reach immediately. I like mind game more than brute-force http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and I am really fruatated to be killed by someone who followed me all the way to my base... You know, I fly quite realistically, I do what a real pilot would do, I engage like what the history recorded... Now I have a short-ranged fighter followed me on a long-ranged fighter all the way to my base and then kill me? regardless of your slim chance of making it back home? It is almost always the case that they will be shot down just after killing me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I am not whining, I am just frustated. And someone tell me if you make your enemy frustated, you are doing everything absolutely right.... and I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
oh... one thing FatBoyHK , I need you help , coz your are our new member.
just try to take 109 with mg151/20 and manage your combat and tell us how it fun ?
S! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I am not your new member, I am just a spy hoping on LW planes and learn them so that when I come back on my beloved Mustang I can kill you LW guys a little bit easier, lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

but that doesn't stop me from helping you doing experiment like this, I will try that next time online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
01-06-2005, 11:20 AM
Hi,

That's the point, though, isn't it? Flying on DF servers is not very historical at all as you are often engaging in 1v1s then you get followed for 2 mins back to your base which has nowhere near the amount of flak that real bases had.

In other words, don't be surprised when things that are far from historical happen like people staying in burning planes for some time to try to get a kill etc.

Cheers,
Norris

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
In a p51 I try not to end up slow but with altitude I can use the Energy to do pretty sharp turns to turn inside a 109 for enough time to do a snap shot.

I know that a 109 drivers primary goal is to drag me in to a turnfight, and although I could win by throttling down and turn inside the 109 I would be a good target unable to outurn the next 109 with his 30mm.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

May be I should consider doing that more, if I have altitute which enable me to disengage by diving.... may be it can improve my mission effectiveness, so that I have no need to spend a whole night for 5 kills anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Higher risk, higher gain, always true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
The Trick to fly a 109 is to know abouts its accelleration and climb aswell as big punch.
I used to trhottle down from highest speed to catch an enemy by breaking hard after him and thus be able to turn inside the p51 (or any late plane) and one hit to cripple or kill.
The goodnatured stall is whats allows u to do this and many allied planes cant declerate as quickly.
Then with good accelleration u are soon back in high speed even from zero speed.
Thats the reason for being careful with 109's low.

As 109 to let a p51 on his rearquarter is dangerous although the 109 would outturn him in longer run.

The problem I think u described is when a p51 takes risks and declerates to turn inside the 109, and it can do a good couple of turns before the 109 gains the advantage of lowspeed handling, and one good turn can be enough to shoot down or damage a 109 out of fighting condition.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can I try using my great decelration for defense? For example a Mustang is coming in with higher speed on my tail. I turn and he followed, so I am quite sure he is committed himself to stay with me, instead of zooming up. at this point is it a good idea to cut throttle and do a scissor or barrel roll, so I can force a overshoot? Then I use my superior accelration to catch him?

If this is a valid tactics then I think turning with a 109 on a Mustang (with its throttle back-ed) is indeed a risky business.... may be a valid tactics but I must be careful. Although you mentioned Mustang's turning ability at mid-high speed, with 109's great decelration it is still very easy to overshoot... if you overshoot and don't have enough energy to zoom up, you are out of fight, you need to disengage and you are dead if you fail to do so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Even If u are not to familiar with the 109 now, the knowledge u aquire flying it will give u insight of its capabilities, and thats an advantage to know the enemy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly my "hidden agenda", lol.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
I think the deflectionshooting suffers most when u constantly switch planes, because of the different feeling, trajectories and strenghts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and that is the problem I predict will strike on me very soon.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
In other words, don't be surprised when things that are far from historical happen like people staying in burning planes for some time to try to get a kill etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry, I really understand that, just a little joke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif every kill is a good kill, except a kill stolen from others http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (or vulcher kill, may be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)

Airmail109
01-06-2005, 12:00 PM
About vulchers, we could solve that problem if Oleg made .50 and 20mm aa "playable", this would also solve some of the whining from people who say flak is to accurate.....though in doing this, manned aa would probably be more accurate than ai aa!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LilHorse
01-06-2005, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
No wonder there are so many 109 flyers online, it is such a easy plane to get kill with... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He11, I must be flying the wrong plane then. I fly 109s (early and mid-war, never the late models if I can help it) because I think they're harder to get kills in. Anytime I've flown a Mustang I felt like I was cheatin'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Though I prefer the C model Mustang over the D. But of all the USAAF planes my fave is the Jug.

And chalk me up as another 109 flyer who doesn't like the MK-108. Lot's of times I prefer to loadout with a pair of MG-151/20 gunpods. Three 20mm suit me fine. But you really have to be disciplined with BnZ with that loadout. Turning is a big no-no.

LilHorse
01-06-2005, 01:51 PM
As for vulching (*sigh* here we go again) there's nothing wrong with it. Not that I do it much, but it did happen in RL so why shouldn't it happen in the sim. Quite frankly, I think it's stupid when I spawn or if I'm lining up on the runway to takeoff and an enemy plane has a perfect shot at me but doesn't take it because it's a "no vulching" server. It kinda kills the immersion for me, which is why I hardly ever fly on such servers.

Lukki
01-06-2005, 03:05 PM
MK108 isn't easy imo. As someone said, it has funny trajectory. Not only that but some of you sound like you're drugs when you claim one shot kills with MK108. I myself have seen Las and Spits take like three bursts of 30mm rounds (3 hits at least). I don't find it realistic at all. The 20mm MG151 also feels weak comapred to what some of the real pilots talk about it. I guess all guns are sort of weak in IL-2.

Oh, and it's strange that someone flies only a few planes. I fly whatever I fancy, therefore I request that the object viewer would be available in arming screen so when I'm flying online I could check the details of the plane I'm going to fly. It should also list ALL planes and their supercharger set altitudes and maximum safe airspeeds. I cannot stress this feature enough. I want it. :C

JG7_Rall
01-06-2005, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
FatBoy- you said something about the 109 being hopeless if the mustang has an alt advantage -- not true. There are many things you can do to make him bleed of his energy advantage -- when he chopped his throttle to turn with you, that caused him to lose A LOT of energy. Had you survived that BnZ, he would have had substantially less energy and soon enough, you would be co-e unless he ran away. Co-e with a mustang in a 109 is a piece of cake. Just keep practicing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and No. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A smart pony pilot will not slow down to get a shot. If I can't get into a good position, I would zoom up and try again, instead of mixing up with him.

But it was indeed my plan to try to drag him down. I was successful for the most of my planning, I just failed short in the last bounce. Should I made it, I am sure I can win... Yes I am still noob on a 109, don't know how to use it to its extreme, especailly its turn performance, but I think I can do that soon

(or may be I am too obessed to the Mustang? lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you do it right, it will work. It isn't an issue of "yes and no". Just do it right. I've been playing this game for a long time, I don't claim to be the best pilot, not by far, but I know what I'm talking about.

He zooms down on you, you take whatever evasive action you prefer to avoid him. Lets say he doesn't chop throttle and zooms back up. He's still lost energy. Why? It's like bouncing a ball. It never reaches its original drop height once you drop it, it loses most of the energy lost as heat. So when he zooms down and climbs back up, he has lost some energy. He still has the E advantage, but a little less.

After a few repititions of this, his E advantage is diminishing. He's either tried turning a bit with you to get a shot (hopefull he hasn't hit you) and has lost quite a bit of E by now or hasn't turned at all, which still results in E loss. He will either disengage and climb back up, which will take a while for him and allows you to either get pretty **** far away or whatever you want. Or, he'll continue to do what he's doing until you're co-e. Then you have him in the 109. Use your great climb rate in the 109 with manual prop pitch while he's zooming up, and then level off and evade when he comes back down. This will lower the time it takes to get to co-e.

And about turning - the 109 is one of the best turners at really low speed, so don't try to outturn spits at 400 kmh. If the fight DOES get slow (I'm not recommending that) use your multi stage flaps and manual prop pitch, and you will outturn any popular plane on most servers. Not the biplanes, but planes like the spit and 51 that the 109 can't outturn at high speed. For manual prop pitch - keep the RPM's below 3000 but as close as you can get to it too. Use your radiator settings as well during the DF.

Good luck, S!

LeadSpitter_
01-06-2005, 04:28 PM
When flying wc I usually take the 20mm in the 109g6/as takes 3 fuselage hit to destroy even a p47, same with spits mustangs and p38s.

I prefer the 20mm becuase its so accurate no recoil what so ever for cannon in such a light aircraft like the 109 and if you choose you can hold the trigger down for the whole ammo ammount without one shake which you need to do against lagg3s and other russian ac.

Other thing i find wierd on the eastern front sets is any 109 with oil splash and black smoke will immediately catch fire and explode every time in a couple of seconds. Same goes for spit p40 p51 but russian ac with black smoke can fly around for 15min plus, they do not have oil splashed over thier gunsite and even when the gunsite is cracked the crack is perfectly centered where the gunsite is where you can still aim perfectly with no obstructions.



I enjoy the 190s most a6 and a8 with 2 108 wing cannons.

flying eastern front i always prefer to take 108 cannon because 20mm does seem extremely weak on russian wood.

its seems wing hits are less effective for all ac types but will cut cables immediatly. 108 usually explodes any fighter and bomber in a 1 sec burst now.

I been flying blue myself again its fun again now that .50 is able to kill in one pass of well aimed shots.

I still have never been shot down by a spitfire all the time i played flying a 190 but had some close calls since 3.03.

for 109s the only ac that gives me trouble is the p39s but i havent seen many with good aim yet, in the 190s p39s dont give me any trouble becuase you can always out run them.

FatBoyHK
01-06-2005, 08:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
He11, I must be flying the wrong plane then. I fly 109s (early and mid-war, never the late models if I can help it) because I think they're harder to get kills in. Anytime I've flown a Mustang I felt like I was cheatin'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Though I prefer the C model Mustang over the D. But of all the USAAF planes my fave is the Jug.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh really? I love Mustang way more because I can bring my victory home, instead of a kill-and-then-being-killed affair on a 109... but you think it is easier to get kill on a Mustang? Usually I can just manage one kill per sorties (25% fuel), or may be 1 or 2 more damaged claims.... but I don't think I am productive in any means.... may be it is just me, but I think if someone fly the Mustang right, that is, in a disciplined way, you won't get big score in a sorties..

F19_Ob
01-07-2005, 04:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:



Can I try using my great decelration for defense? For example a Mustang is coming in with higher speed on my tail. I turn and he followed, so I am quite sure he is committed himself to stay with me, instead of zooming up. at this point is it a good idea to cut throttle and do a scissor or barrel roll, so I can force a overshoot? Then I use my superior accelration to catch him?

If this is a valid tactics then I think turning with a 109 on a Mustang (with its throttle back-ed) is indeed a risky business.... may be a valid tactics but I must be careful. Although you mentioned Mustang's turning ability at mid-high speed, with 109's great decelration it is still very easy to overshoot... if you overshoot and don't have enough energy to zoom up, you are out of fight, you need to disengage and you are dead if you fail to do so.
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Its absolutely possible, but it depends a lot on
the situation. While its possible to break out of harms way in many planes I have felt that the 109 does it best because of the possibility accellerate and climb better than most.
This should be used on high altitudes or in emergencies preferably. Instead of breaking hard u can break only "hard enough" to get out of the bulletsream and turn back when the pursuer overshoots and climbs, and u still have energy for a snapshot on him in the climb.

So although the 109 is good slow its only when the opponent is slow aswell.
A defender, regardless of plane, is in serious trouble if he loses his energy and the enemy has E advantage.
Example:
I have shot down many 109's and fw190 who thought of the twoseat il-2 as a very crappy bomber without energy, and forgetting it has the best armament in the game, thus alowing themself liberties wich cost them their wings.

Its really best to say that the 109 is better allround and can get out of tight spots better than the p51 and thus have a greater range of maneuverability.
Its absolutely nescessary to practise hard maneuvers on the edge in a mustang since its not so good at it and thereby a mustangpilot increases his chances and improves his maneuverability for those tightspots one can end up in.

I would also like give the advice (wich have helped me enormously) to Check your guns and their reach and try to recognize the opportunities to fire.
A good thing is to practice to calculate deflection on all ranges up to atleast 700m.
This may seem too far but with flat trajectory mg's and cannons its not.
The greatest use for longdistance shots are on climbers when they are at their slowest but there are great possibilities to hit in other situations too.
IMO The best way to improve is by recording tracks. this way u can see if u calculate right or if the bulletstream constantly falls behind,
And can adjust it.
If u then fly a few planes u can really reach mastery in this field and maximise your shooting-opportunities.

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I fear ...that when one starts to examine several planes u get carried away and in the end will become a multi-plane-pilot, and those have a hard time beeing experten.
Its more fun though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

FatBoyHK
01-07-2005, 04:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lukki:
MK108 isn't easy imo. As someone said, it has funny trajectory. Not only that but some of you sound like you're drugs when you claim one shot kills with MK108. I myself have seen Las and Spits take like three bursts of 30mm rounds (3 hits at least). I don't find it realistic at all. The 20mm MG151 also feels weak comapred to what some of the real pilots talk about it. I guess all guns are sort of weak in IL-2.
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Indeed, 1 shot always results in one kill.... I mean kill, not necessary "points".... Semm to me no one could possibly make it back home after receiving one MK108 hit. I claim it, in my mind, as a kill anyway. Some buddies would like risking themselve for the glory, I let them do it, I don't care much about points.... Or I just let the crippled enemy die a slow death on the way back home http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
01-07-2005, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
If the fight DOES get slow (I'm not recommending that) use your multi stage flaps and manual prop pitch, and you will outturn any popular plane on most servers. Not the biplanes, but planes like the spit and 51 that the 109 can't outturn at high speed. For manual prop pitch - keep the RPM's below 3000 but as close as you can get to it too. Use your radiator settings as well during the DF.
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So, the correct usage of PP and raditator will make me turn better too?

FatBoyHK
01-07-2005, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Its absolutely nescessary to practise hard maneuvers on the edge in a mustang since its not so good at it and thereby a mustangpilot increases his chances and improves his maneuverability for those tightspots one can end up in.
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Do you have any precise example of what kind of hard maneuver a Mustang pilot should master? For example hard turn in high speed without breaking wings?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
I fear ...that when one starts to examine several planes u get carried away and in the end will become a multi-plane-pilot, and those have a hard time beeing experten.
Its more fun though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think, in long term, I will stay on a Mustang, as I said before I just want to "spy" on those LW plane from time to time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
01-07-2005, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
If the fight DOES get slow (I'm not recommending that) use your multi stage flaps and manual prop pitch, and you will outturn any popular plane on most servers. Not the biplanes, but planes like the spit and 51 that the 109 can't outturn at high speed. For manual prop pitch - keep the RPM's below 3000 but as close as you can get to it too. Use your radiator settings as well during the DF.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, the correct usage of PP and raditator will make me turn better too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


For me the manual proppitch doesnt improve anything but marginally in strict careful BnZ.
But then I cant use the full potential of the 109.
In a dogfight I'm much better off if I freely can concentrate on thinking ahead in battle instead.
Violent vertical maneuvers and accellerations
becomes very difficult if u have to juggle with manual PP and during prolonged fights with a long way home it mostly ends up with a dead engine.
The possibility of hard vertical maneuvers up and down was ofcourse the reason for the autoprop in RL in combatsituations.
The RPM's with auto pitch is fully sufficient for combat.
Being able to Think ahead in the fight and good deflectionskills is for me a more important factor to consider.

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I must also add that some claim u have to have PP assigned to a slider for it to work well.
I dont have an extra slider so I dont know how effective this is.

OldMan____
01-07-2005, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
If the fight DOES get slow (I'm not recommending that) use your multi stage flaps and manual prop pitch, and you will outturn any popular plane on most servers. Not the biplanes, but planes like the spit and 51 that the 109 can't outturn at high speed. For manual prop pitch - keep the RPM's below 3000 but as close as you can get to it too. Use your radiator settings as well during the DF.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, the correct usage of PP and raditator will make me turn better too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


For me the manual proppitch doesnt improve anything but marginally in strict careful BnZ.
But then I cant use the full potential of the 109.
In a dogfight I'm much better off if I freely can concentrate on thinking ahead in battle instead.
Violent vertical maneuvers and accellerations
becomes very difficult if u have to juggle with manual PP and during prolonged fights with a long way home it mostly ends up with a dead engine.
The possibility of hard vertical maneuvers up and down was ofcourse the reason for the autoprop in RL in combatsituations.
The RPM's with auto pitch is fully sufficient for combat.
Being able to Think ahead in the fight and good deflectionskills is for me a more important factor to consider.

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I must also add that some claim u have to have PP assigned to a slider for it to work well.
I dont have an extra slider so I dont know how effective this is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

manual pitch both in FW and Bf are only worth during strong climbing. Otherwise not very much can be attained from them.

F19_Ob
01-07-2005, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:

Do you have any precise example of what kind of hard maneuver a Mustang pilot should master? For example hard turn in high speed without breaking wings?

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Yes for example to know how fast u can dive and familiarise yourself with how hard u can pull in high speeds without losing parts.
What happens if U add flaps during a hard dive?
Trim?

But more important is to learn to change directions in slowest speeds without flipping and spinning like in scissoring, wich the 109 is very good at and will beat the p51 in.
Not all 109 drivers are experts and low speed scissoring is difficult in any plane, and if u know your mustang well u might outmaneuver a 109 in his own field.
Slowspeed handling is very usefull when climbing away and reach as high as posibble and be able to turn down fast without flipping and/or spinning.
This climbing matter is very important because u easily can miss an opportunity to fire at the enemy if u cant turn down fast enough on him.

The opposit.
A 109 on top and u below = bad.
He is making passes on u and u have to eveade and climb up to spray after him, and then he comes down again.
This is very difficult to cope with if u cant get to the edge in your ship and there is a possibility that u flip or spinn.
Lowspeed handling enables u to recover faster from stalls and to hold your ship at altitude where an inexperienced have to go downward all the time unable to reverse a bad situation.

a few ideas.

LilHorse
01-07-2005, 10:26 AM
???ginally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
He11, I must be flying the wrong plane then. I fly 109s (early and mid-war, never the late models if I can help it) because I think they're harder to get kills in. Anytime I've flown a Mustang I felt like I was cheatin'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Though I prefer the C model Mustang over the D. But of all the USAAF planes my fave is the Jug.
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Oh really? I love Mustang way more because I can bring my victory home, instead of a kill-and-then-being-killed affair on a 109... but you think it is easier to get kill on a Mustang? Usually I can just manage one kill per sorties (25% fuel), or may be 1 or 2 more damaged claims.... but I don't think I am productive in any means.... may be it is just me, but I think if someone fly the Mustang right, that is, in a disciplined way, you won't get big score in a sorties..[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do feel it's easier to get kills in a Mustang than a 109. Maybe it's just me in 109s. Forever the student who never masters it. I don't have a problem with the Mustang. It's okay. I just prefer planes that are more challenging to get kills in (so I guess I don't really care about racking up multiple kills in a sortie). But I prefer any plane where patience, discipline, timing and best of all when you can get it, surprise is your best tactic. In short I prefer to BnZ not yank and bank. And the Mustang definately fits that bill.

FatBoyHK
01-07-2005, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
Yes, I do feel it's easier to get kills in a Mustang than a 109. Maybe it's just me in 109s. Forever the student who never masters it. I don't have a problem with the Mustang. It's okay. I just prefer planes that are more challenging to get kills in (so I guess I don't really care about racking up multiple kills in a sortie). But I prefer any plane where patience, discipline, timing and best of all when you can get it, surprise is your best tactic. In short I prefer to BnZ not yank and bank. And the Mustang definately fits that bill. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think a plane with big cannon actually suit me better... I like taking snapshot, and I think I am good in forcing an opporunity for snapshot... big cannon is good for this... on the other hand I just cannot land a continuious shot more than 1 second, be it just right in front of my nose... I think I don't have a steady hand... But I love Mustang, so I fly it, no more questio asked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But sometimes, 0.5cal snapshot is equally effectively, of course you can't compare it to 30mm, that is.

back to mustang, I think if you fly it right, as least no one can kill you. Flying above 13000ft, you may BnZ and even TnB... in case of serious trouble just dive straight to 8000ft, and run for home... at this height it outrun everyone, even a Ta152 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but this kind of driciplined flying don't give you many opporunity to score kill... everyone seem like to TnB below 5000ft.... I really wonder why some people (very rare indeed) can score big in a Mustang...