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Ba5tard5word
06-20-2008, 02:16 PM
I'm curious about the planes used by the Finns and Russians in the Winter War and Continuation War, I have a general idea but lack some specifics. I'm making kind of an unrealistic campaign where the Finns get some 109's around 1942 and you work to help the Finns to make an incursion towards Leningrad...but it would be nice to know the actual planes used at the different stages of the Finnish wars, mainly so I know what Russian planes I should put in the missions.

The Wikipedia page on the Finnish Air Force gives some good data about planes used by Finland, but not about the Russians. I have seen some other websites about the planes used but they were a bit disorganized or they were anecdotes from pilots at the time mainly talking about tactics rather than giving a comprehensive list of all the planes used. But if you know of any websites that go into any of this, that would be a big help.

To make it easier for replies, these are the main questions I have.

A) what planes did the Russians mainly use over Finland? I know they used I-16's early on but otherwise I don't really know what was used.

B) what fighters and bombers were used by the German units stationed in Finland?


Thanks for any help or ideas for any of this.

Dustysquareback
06-20-2008, 02:29 PM
Off the top of my head, the Fins had:

P-36 Hawk
Morane
Macchi G.50
Blenheim
Hurricane Mk 1
B-239 (exported buffalo)

Basically, anything they could scrounge up. They also flew a number of captured I-16s and I-153's.

Russians fought them with the usual suspects. Ratas LAAGs and Migs.

Dustysquareback
06-20-2008, 02:30 PM
er.. I just re-read your post and realized thats not what you asked. Doh.

Erkki_M
06-20-2008, 02:32 PM
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_historia


Jatkosota = Continuation War.

In the beginning of the war, main fighters were the Brewster (44 pieces) and the P36 (equal number or more, cant remember).

Bf109G2s, first 12 of them, came in March 1943. More were later bought, as were more than 100 of the G6 type. Main bombers were Blenheims and in the late war Ju88s.

German used, in Summer 44, the FW190A6, Ju87 and 4 bf109s. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For soviets Leningrad was not too important, except for early and mid 44 they used mostly older models. For example FAF pilots got used to fight Hurricanes, MiGs and I16s a lot, even in 43.

Ba5tard5word
06-20-2008, 03:30 PM
Too bad I don't read Finnish..... :\ But the info you listed is useful.

That's interesting that the Russians tended to use older planes even until '44. I played a Finnish single-player mission included in Il-2 1946 that I think was set in 1943 and had Buffalos up against Yak 1B's. Pretty tough.

dirkpit7
06-21-2008, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
Too bad I don't read Finnish..... :\ But the info you listed is useful.

That's interesting that the Russians tended to use older planes even until '44. I played a Finnish single-player mission included in Il-2 1946 that I think was set in 1943 and had Buffalos up against Yak 1B's. Pretty tough.

Tough, but not unhistorical. Although as far as I can recall, La-5 was more common in the Finnish front than Yak. Brewsters (not Buffalos http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) certainly fought Lavochkins often and with good success.

Overall I think that Russians used a wide variety of planes. I-153 and I-16 were most common fighters in Winter War and early Continuation War. Then MiG-3, LaGG/La and Hurricane appeared in '42-'43. Yaks and P-39s were also used later. During the massive Soviet attack of summer 1944 VVS had huge numerical advantage and modern planes and Finns were very hard pressed.

FAF also had several fighter types in use but typically a very low number of each. Fokker D.XXI was most impertant in Winter War. Finnish leaders then realized the need for more and better planes but the reinforcements including Brewster B-239, Hurricane, Fiat G.50, Morane, P-36 etc. only arrived after piece was made and were used in Cont. War. B-239 was most important (44). Overall I think these types totaled 100-150 fighters.

Bf-109 (G2 and G6) then became the main fighter type 1943 onwards.

During the war, Finns also used many captured enemy planes operationally. Many I-153s, a Hurricane IIb (those bought from GB were Mk.Is), P-40 Warhawk, and several Soviet bombers at least.

One interesting note: Ilmari Juutilainen shot down one of the ten P-51's that Soviets received during WW2 (IIRC they were Allison engined).

Jaguar_99th
06-21-2008, 04:35 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War?vb

[edit] Aerial
At the start of the hostilities the Finnish Air Force had 146 aircraft of all types at its disposal. The primary fighter aircraft were the 15 examples of the Bristol Bulldog IV which had entered service in 1935 and 41 of the more modern Fokker D.XXI, a few bombers existed in 18 license-built Bristol Blenheims. As the dark clouds had begun to set over Europe in 1939 an order had been placed in Italy for 25 Fiat G.50 Fighters of which two were being assembled in Sweden when the war broke out.

During the war a number of aircraft were ordered from abroad.

30 Gloster Gladiator II Biplane-Fighters from the United Kingdom
12 Bristol Blenheim IV Bombers from the United Kingdom
30 Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 Fighters from France
44 Brewster 239 Fighters from the United States
22 Gloster Gauntlet Trainers from the United Kingdom
10 Fiat G.50 Fighters from Italy
In air combat, Finland used the "finger four" formation (four planes, split into two units of two planes, one unit flying low and the other high, with each plane fighting independently of the others yet supporting their wingman in combat), which was superior to the Russian tactic of three fighters flying in a delta formation. This formation and the credo of Finnish pilots to always attack, no matter the odds, contributed to the failure of Russian bombers to inflict substantial damage against Finnish positions, cities or population reserves.

Mechant_Schmidt
06-21-2008, 06:47 PM
Everything you need. Types, when in service, how many, captured...

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fafincolor.html (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fafincolor.html)

Ba5tard5word
06-21-2008, 11:37 PM
Awesome, thank you all, this is all very illuminating.


Man I sure would hate to go up against a La-5 with a Buffalo...dang.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

BWaltteri
06-22-2008, 04:02 AM
Soviets used also Spitfires, Hurricanes, Tomahawks, A-20's plus some more rare Allied types during the war.

BWaltteri
06-22-2008, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by dirkpit7:

One interesting note: Ilmari Juutilainen shot down one of the ten P-51's that Soviets received during WW2 (IIRC they were Allison engined).

He shot two, but in different battles, above Ihantala cemetery.

Nils Katajainen also shot two in one battle.

dirkpit7
06-22-2008, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirkpit7:

One interesting note: Ilmari Juutilainen shot down one of the ten P-51's that Soviets received during WW2 (IIRC they were Allison engined).

He shot two, but in different battles, above Ihantala cemetery.

Nils Katajainen also shot two in one battle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you're right.

Juutilainen also shot down a P-38.

Interesting interview here (http://www.sci.fi/%7Efta/finace01.htm). He tells about the Lighting and Mustang victories in page 2.

Erkki_M
06-23-2008, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by dirkpit7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BWaltteri:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirkpit7:

One interesting note: Ilmari Juutilainen shot down one of the ten P-51's that Soviets received during WW2 (IIRC they were Allison engined).

He shot two, but in different battles, above Ihantala cemetery.

Nils Katajainen also shot two in one battle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you're right.

Juutilainen also shot down a P-38.

Interesting interview here (http://www.sci.fi/%7Efta/finace01.htm). He tells about the Lighting and Mustang victories in page 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember having read somewhere that the "P-38" he shot nearby Lavansaari Island was actually a captured FW-189... Also the other P51 was most probably a Yak9.