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SkyChimp
03-29-2005, 06:36 PM
Busting German chops before the Mustang was glimmer in the USAAF's eye!

http://hsgalleries.com/images/p47d10sm_1.jpg
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/zemkeswolfpacksd_1.jpg
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/Arlette.jpg
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/p47mprofilesm_1.jpg

Beer, barbequed pork-ribs, Thunderbolts. It's all good.

SkyChimp
03-29-2005, 06:36 PM
Busting German chops before the Mustang was glimmer in the USAAF's eye!

http://hsgalleries.com/images/p47d10sm_1.jpg
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/zemkeswolfpacksd_1.jpg
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/Arlette.jpg
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/p47mprofilesm_1.jpg

Beer, barbequed pork-ribs, Thunderbolts. It's all good.

SkyChimp
03-29-2005, 06:44 PM
Bf-109s were no match!
http://www.militaryartgallery.com/Images_b/b-final-mission.jpg

han freak solo
03-29-2005, 07:38 PM
I'm not worthy!!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

P.S. I'm glad you moved on from the Mustang.

Oilburner_TAW
03-29-2005, 08:02 PM
Thunderbolt would have won the war if the Mustang hadn't shown up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BuzzU
03-29-2005, 08:14 PM
Hard to beat a good pair of Jugs.

Hristos
03-29-2005, 08:14 PM
Needs to go on a diet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
03-29-2005, 08:16 PM
If this thread has as many nice pictures as the Mustang thread...I'll be very happy indeed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PBNA-Boosher
03-29-2005, 08:27 PM
Can dive like hell and has eight .50's of shredding death. This plane was a killer, and a survivor.

GR142_Astro
03-29-2005, 08:46 PM
Always liked the HH.

http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/ww2allies/P47/YAFgof-P47-Hun.jpg

Enforcer572005
03-29-2005, 09:52 PM
Far more survivable in ground attack than a 51....the radial engine was less vulnerable to ground fire than liquid cooled inline engines. that was true across the board regarding radial v inline.

In Korea, the USAF suffered serious losses to the 51 units in close support. I'll never understand why they didn't deploy the P-47Ns in the air guard units. They made a big mistake not using p-47, even if they only had a few of them left. Would have saved alot of pilots lives. they screwed up scrapping all the Jugs right after the war.

My dad was in the AAF in the occupation forces in Japan 47-49. He saw P-47Ns on several occaisions, watched a whole squadron fly into Kyushu from Okinawa one day; most had some problem on landing.....one gear collapse, several smoking engines, and one guy had a fire in his supercharger with flames coming out of the vents on the aft fuselage.

F-51s and F-61s F(P-61s were based at his airbase, and he use to scramble then regularly when Russain recon planes showed up on radar.

The 51 still had an edge in air to air though...I wouldn't say the 109 was no match for it, just that a good pilot who knew its strengths could come out on top.

Blackdog5555
03-29-2005, 10:25 PM
Fantastic at high altitude. Though, Would not bounce below 16,000ft in tthe ETO....later versions were built to carry 3000lb of bombs....3000lbs..wow..I just wish the high altitude wasn't black sky with stars, during the day.

310th Falcon
03-30-2005, 12:08 AM
The Mighty Jug's kicking some #$@&*

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Morning_Thunder.jpg



Best Regards

Da_Godfatha
03-30-2005, 02:58 AM
Not in this game! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The Zero can stay in a dive with it any day, BTW, the whine-0-nine, Fw`s and about every other plane too!!

Maybe some day we will get accurate dive rates for the planes. (But I will not hold my breath for that).

dadada1
03-30-2005, 03:55 AM
Pig ugly thing.

WOLFMondo
03-30-2005, 04:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
Not in this game! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The Zero can stay in a dive with it any day, BTW, the whine-0-nine, Fw`s and about every other plane too!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you diving under water or something? :P

pacettid
03-30-2005, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadada1:
Pig ugly thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Especially when on your six http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

SkyChimp
03-30-2005, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadada1:
Pig ugly thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God will de-ball you for such a comment.

Von_Zero
03-30-2005, 06:25 AM
well SkyChimp, i you still like those american **** planes, at least you picked a beautifull one this time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
03-30-2005, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 310th Falcon:
The Mighty Jug's kicking some #$@&*

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Morning_Thunder.jpg



Best Regards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great painting! Anyone have a generic skin of that particular fighter groups Thunderbolts? I love the white D-Day stripes underwing combined with the checker pattern.

SkyChimp
03-30-2005, 07:22 AM
http://www.clubhyper.com/images/bearimages/p47dunbtd_1.jpg
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/p47dgabreskitd_1.jpg



High calorie Thunderbolt food:
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/big_guns_jg54.jpg



The proper use for a Messerschmitt:
http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/messerschmittkaputdc_1.jpg

dadada1
03-30-2005, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadada1:
Pig ugly thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God will de-ball you for such a comment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My girlfriend already owns them, so I've nothing to lose.

civildog
03-30-2005, 09:07 AM
Sometimes, when flying this behemoth, I have the childlike urge to just run over 109's and 190's that get in my way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Diablo310th
03-30-2005, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
Not in this game! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The Zero can stay in a dive with it any day, BTW, the whine-0-nine, Fw`s and about every other plane too!!

Maybe some day we will get accurate dive rates for the planes. (But I will not hold my breath for that). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here Here...I cannot agree more. It's a shame to not be able to use the 2 things Jugs were best at. Fantatic dive and Zoom climb. Oh sure yuou can outdive anythign from a high enough alt. but as soon as you pull level of try to zoom climb those Zekes and 109's and 190's are right on your butt. Even the high alt. performance is suspect anymore since the last patch. I sure hope 4.0 solves this problem. Ohh yeah..and I hate the outer space view above 8000m.

VMF-214_HaVoK
03-30-2005, 06:02 PM
My favorite of all time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/28487.jpg


Q&A with Maj Robert S Johnson

MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. Günther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can't imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?

Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down.

SkyChimp
03-30-2005, 06:11 PM
Tests showed that one hit from a .50 in a Thunderbolt did as much damage to the Bf-109 as several hit of 20mm from a Spitfire.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Enforcer572005
03-30-2005, 11:02 PM
I think I'd take that with a grain of salt....a grain about the size of a basketball. My grandfather had a LIVE 20mm shell rolling around in his desk drawer from his days in the nat guard (home guard) in ww2.....its lots bigger and blows up to. I nearly freaked when I found it when I was 12 yrs old.

Johnson's book is great, especially the above incident wiht the FW just sitting on his crippled tail and emptying his entire remaining ammo supply on the razorback 47. the landing was just about as hairy......

horseback
03-30-2005, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
Needs to go on a diet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're absolutely right about that; far too much cholesterol in the 190 and 109.

cheers

horseback

Jagdklinger
03-31-2005, 06:27 AM
I bet all the P47 pilot are descended from the neandethal tribe who worshipped those fat venus fertility goddesses - 'cuz thats what the '47 reminds me of...

carguy_
03-31-2005, 07:08 AM
Always wondered why they made it so big.For ground pounding ok but for escorting?It`s so big it obscures almost the whole windshield from 50m.

No offense,the belly reminds me of a pregnant cat.

ploughman
03-31-2005, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Tests showed that one hit from a .50 in a Thunderbolt did as much damage to the Bf-109 as several hit of 20mm from a Spitfire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spitfire envy. Don't worry too much, it's only a mild case, nothing like the chronic condition Hristos has developed which we fear is incurable. Just watch The Battle of Britain twice a day for two weeks and you should be alright.

WOLFMondo
03-31-2005, 07:22 AM
I always liked the way it wobbles down the runway. Its almost comical. Still my favorite plane in FB though.

Frequent_Flyer
03-31-2005, 08:01 AM
Here's one for you, the P-47N which flew in combat and destroyed enemy aircraft had a attained 470 MPH at 30,000ft. 1800+ were produced from dec. 1944 on and flew from Siapan to Japan.In the 'flew but did'nt do much'( Ta 152) catagory the XP-47-J a lightweight version of the T-bolt utilizing the R-2800-57-c, and a cleaned up airframe, with 6 X.50's became the first prop driven fighter to exceed 500 MPH in level flight on 4 August, 1944
It gets better Republic did not put XP-47 into production because they were going to put the P-72 into production, the first fighter to be designed around the 28 cylinder Wasp Major turbo-supercharged engine. It flew on 2 Feb., 1944 with a pressuriized cockpit,two contrarotating props, it reached 490 MPH at 25,000ft.to be armed with four 37mm cannons, 100 were order but cancelled in favor of the Shooting Star......Maybe a future BOB project, who would'nt want to see those 'JUGS'?

badbeat2005
03-31-2005, 09:04 AM
It was the supercharger ducting that made the P-47 "fat".

http://www.asminternational.org/images2/cof/0703p47fig6b.jpg

WOLFMondo
03-31-2005, 09:21 AM
I'd like to see the P47N but not ones that were never actually used. I guess again its down to the modelers choice and if Oleg wants to program it.

Ta152's were used in combat btw, that lightweight P47 wasn't so thats not a fair comparison.

BuzzU
03-31-2005, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
Always wondered why they made it so big.For ground pounding ok but for escorting?It`s so big it obscures almost the whole windshield from 50m.

No offense,the belly reminds me of a pregnant cat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We like things big in Merrica.

Besides, the way you shoot, you needed a bigger target. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LilHorse
03-31-2005, 09:56 AM
Ah yes. Big, mean, fast, tough. What's not to like? I like the way it looks, big and menacing. My favorite fighter of the war.

And though I don't fly it much, I disagree with some of the assesments on it's performance in game. True, Zeros should start experiancing problems above 350mph (which was it's spec'd dive limit speed) and in game they don't. But that's a problem with the Zero not the Jug. I've dived the Jug and reached speeds up to 800kph, pulled out (provided there was enough alt.) and zoomed pretty dang well.

Since I fly mostly 109s I can tell you that at 800kph you end up with a wingless 109. Plus, anytime a Jug has a good head of steam going and decides to run away I know that in my 109 I'm not going to catch him.

Vuco1
03-31-2005, 03:37 PM
The real felling and the real impression of an "Jug" can only be gained by seeing it in reality. Recently I have visited the technical museum in Zagreb just to see one in reality, and the only thing I could say when I saw it was: "Holy s... that thing is huge!" And I mean it. The power apsoluty radiates from it, and you feel so small and pour in front of one. Of course there are bigger and more powerful planes these days, but for something that flew 60 years ago and spread deaf whit its 6 guns it pretty impressive. In the game you newer get the real feeling of it size. I not a kid any more but it still impresses me.

blakduk
03-31-2005, 09:03 PM
Enforcer572005- quote "In Korea, the USAF suffered serious losses to the 51 units in close support. I'll never understand why they didn't deploy the P-47Ns in the air guard units. They made a big mistake not using p-47, even if they only had a few of them left. Would have saved alot of pilots lives. they screwed up scrapping all the Jugs right after the war".

In some respects this fault was recognised and the P47 never really died. It evolved into the T28 Trojan, although ostensibly a trainer it was adapted for ground attack particularly for airforces such as Laos's.
Some years ago Aussies went into Laos and bought obsolete but mint condition T28's off them- they still had the racks for the rockets on the wings. It was funny watching the grease monkeys working on them trying to figure out a safe way to disarm the ejector seats!!

Diablo310th
04-01-2005, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I bet all the P47 pilot are descended from the neandethal tribe who worshipped those fat venus fertility goddesses - 'cuz thats what the '47 reminds me of... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heyyy I resemble that remark. LOl and don't talk about my lady like that. She may be fat slow but she is purty as can be. Take a look. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/Diablo310th.jpg

NorrisMcWhirter
04-01-2005, 01:52 PM
Love the fat bird. Gives you something to hang onto when you sh*g it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Must admit, the Jug is plug but it's better looking than the P51...and a more enjoyable ride.

Cheers,
Norris

Jagdklinger
04-01-2005, 05:18 PM
@Diablo - that's a really nice skin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif - pity about the plane.... the only thing worse is its ugly brother, the Avenger TB. Surely the 'beer barrel run through with an ironing board' comment applies as much here as to the Wildcat...

Basically, anything the Jug can do, the 190 can do better - and look cooler while doing it. I mean, even a TB3 is sexier than a Jug...

Although the P47 has one advantage - the enemy pilots wince and close their eyes in a dogfight rather than look upon the airborne abomination... ..hence its legendary survivability...

(Although coming from a country whose only WWII fighter was the CAC Boomerang - I'd better retreat into my glass house... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

BuzzU
04-01-2005, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
@Diablo - that's a really nice skin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif - pity about the plane.... the only thing worse is its ugly brother, the Avenger TB. Surely the 'beer barrel run through with an ironing board' comment applies as much here as to the Wildcat...

Basically, anything the Jug can do, the 190 can do better - and look cooler while doing it. I mean, even a TB3 is sexier than a Jug...

Although the P47 has one advantage - the enemy pilots wince and close their eyes in a dogfight rather than look upon the airborne abomination... ..hence its legendary survivability...

(Although coming from a country whose only WWII fighter was the CAC Boomerang - I'd better retreat into my glass house... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When flying the Jug, I can't see what I look like, so it doesn't matter what I look like. One thing I can see though. I can SEE OUT OF THE COCKPIT.

How you doing with the FW gunsight?

Cajun76
04-02-2005, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:


Basically, anything the Jug can do, the 190 can do better...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Show me a single Fw that can meet me at 40,000 ft for some A2A action, and have the capability to carry 2000lbs. of bombs and 6 rockets one day, and then fly to Berlin and back the next from England.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif P-47D-27 can..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif In other words, the 190 can everything but win a war... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Jagdklinger
04-02-2005, 02:17 AM
@BuzzU

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One thing I can see though. I can SEE OUT OF THE COCKPIT.

How you doing with the FW gunsight? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I don't fly the Fw190... The truth is more shameful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif "cough109Kcough" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

@Cajun76

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Show me a single Fw that can meet me at 40,000 ft for some A2A action, and have the capability to carry 2000lbs. of bombs and 6 rockets one day, and then fly to Berlin and back the next from England.... P-47D-27 can.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

P47 may be able to do all of this, but none of it WELL. If butt ugly and ground-pounding's your thing, you might as well fly an Avenger - or that flying target drone, the P38.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> show me a single Fw that can meet me at 40,000 ft for some A2A action <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's called a Ta152. I'm sure its nice, safe and boring at 40,000ft - another reason for P47 surviviability... Btw, I'm not nationalisticlly biased - it just seems the US usually made the dullest, ugliest planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry to ***** your bubble, but superior numbers and the A-bomb won the war, not an overstuffed, overdone American gas-guzzler of indifferent performance. I'm glad we did win it - or I'd be posting in Japanese... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Btw, I like your Hot Shots sig quote.... if only mime schools were legitimate targets in RL... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Incidentally, there's a few T28 Trojans (P47's spiritual descendent) getting around at airshows here in Oz. When I first saw one,age 11, I said, "Dad, what's that ugly plane called?" ....and as they say, only drunks and children speak the truth http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BigKahuna_GS
04-02-2005, 06:13 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Jagdklinger posted Sat April 02 2005 01:17
P47 may be able to do all of this, but none of it WELL. If butt ugly and ground-pounding's your thing, you might as well fly an Avenger - or that flying target drone, the P38....
I think it's called a Ta152. I'm sure its nice, safe and boring at 40,000ft - another reason for P47 surviviability... Btw, I'm not nationalisticlly biased - it just seems the US usually made the dullest, ugliest planes
Sorry to ***** your bubble, but superior numbers and the A-bomb won the war, not an overstuffed, overdone American gas-guzzler of indifferent performance. I'm glad we did win it - or I'd be posting in Japanese...
__________________________________________________ ________________________



Too bad the US Navy stopped the invasion of Austrailia at the battle of Coral Sea, it sounds like you need a little refresh time in a japanese pow camp so you could read up on your history books http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry to pop that bubble back in your face but it is a myth that superior numbers is the only thing that defeated either the japanese or germans. Remember these guys started the war, planned for war, prepared for war--for years before the outbreak of WW2. They developed their strategies and tactics for war along with designing and developing weapons for war in China in the 1930's (japanese) and the civil war in Spain (Germany). This is where they cut their teeth and honed their skills.

In the PTO the first most pivital battle "Midway", japanese forces strongly outnumbered US forces. For Most all of 1943 the japanese held the advantage of total number of aircraft available in the Solomons and New Guinea area.

It is a historical myth about the only reason US Fighters did well against Luftwaffe fighters (109,190) is because the USAAF had more fighters and numerical superiority. For the years 1942-43' there was the build up of 8th AF strategic bomber forces in England. Fighter strength at this time consisted of mostly P40's and P39's. For the early part of 1943 this was also true as P39's still outnumbered P38's. The P40's and P39's certainly were not going to escort bombers at 30,000ft.

Early 1943 B-17 penetrations into Germany where flown without fighter escorts. USAAF commanders thought the defensive armament on the B-17 was strong enough to protect themselves. How wrong they were. Bomber losses were a staggering 30% of the attacking force and strategic bombing operations ceased until enough fighter escorts were available.

During 1943-44' outnumbered P38's and P47s took on the Luftwaffe at the peak of their strength on the Western front. Both fighters had positive kill ratios with the P47 kill ratios better. This may be due that the P38 was the only fighter capable of flying deep into Germany. Once there the P38s were severely out numbered during 43-44'.

Click on this link-Official USAF historical archives of aircraft strength by type in England 1942-45. It wasn't until the middle of 1944 that US fighter strength had a numerical advantage over the Luftwaffe. By that time the Luftwaffe had been already reduced down and was no longer an effective fighting force.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables_aircraftequipment.html

Look at tables 88 thru 94. ETO & PTO USAAF Aircraft Strength
Very Interesting

P47 Ace Robert Johnson on 1943-44':
The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the
Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that
allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before.


http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/gabby.jpg
Lt.Col. Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski. Oil City, PA. 61st Fighter Squadron. P-47D 42-26418 HV-A. Yeah go tell Gabby & Johnson the 2 leading USAAF Aces in the ETO the P47 didnt do anything well.


On being outnumbered:

Some additional citations as to the ratio of Luftwaffe fighters to AAF
escorts.

Robert Johnson:
"I was on three of the early Berlin raids. I was the lead airplane on
March 6. I had only eight airplanes to protect 180 bombers."

Later he spotted fighters heading towards the heavies. At first he thought
that they were P-47's from the 56th. They turned out to be Focke Wulfs.

"We were line abreast, all eight of us and we just opened fire and went right through some 60 or so 190s and 109s. As we turned to get on their tails, we saw another 60 or so above and another 60 or so to their left. Probably 175 - 180 German aircraft. Eight of us."

After the fight erupted into a free for all, Johnson comments:

"I didn't have to think about the situation, it was there. I thought only of survival, and hitting the enemy. If there are crosses, shoot at 'em."

An additional citation about the training given pilots reporting to P-38 Groups:

Max Woolley of the 364th FG says:

"I had about four or five hours of training in England before I went 'active'. A pilot learned combat by being in combat."

On March 15th, Woolley's squadron ran into what he estimates as 120 German
fighters. The rest of the Group was about 5 miles away when his squadron C.O.led them into the Germans. Only 12 P-38s taking on ten times as many of the Luftwaffe. This was Woolley's first combat mission. After surviving by out-turning several 109s who had worked onto his tail and shredding the
rudder of one 109, Woolley noted that the fight had been "a great lesson."

Both the German Luftwaffe and Japanese Army and Navy air forces had their backs broken by undersized forces during the peak of their respective strengths during 1943-44'.
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/christensen2.jpg
Capt. Fred J "Chris" Christensen Jr. Watertown, Mass. 62nd Fighter Squadron. P-47D 42-26628 LM-C "Miss Fire" / "Rozzie Geth II". Fred seen here posing for the publicity shot taken after downing six in one encounter, a feat equalled in the ETO only by George Preddy.

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/56thfg-gallery.jsp


Of course the P38 and the P47 do not have the representaive flight model of what they were truely able to do in real life as opposed to how they are undermodled in AEP/PF. US aircraft always seem to be short changed in dive superiority and energy retention.

The 8th Air Force P47 Squadrons over boosted their engines as a group starting in late 1943. In March of 1944, 150 octane aviation fuel become available. Pratt & Whitney technicians instructed crew chiefs the proper way to adjust wastegate modifications for higher boost ratings :

"By the Spring of 1944, there wasn't a P-47 in the 56th that hadn't been field modified like Johnson's. Ask any of the surviving crew chiefs. When150 octane fuel became available in early '44, 72" MAP became the standard for combat operations. While this setting was never incorporated into the standard issue pilot's manual, it is easily found in 8th AF Fighter Command technical bulletins and operational instructions."

"When Johnson states that the P-47 was faster than the Mustang, he is using his hotrodded P-47D-5-RE "Lucky", S/N 42-8461 for reference. Johnson's crew chief (Pappy Gould) worked magic on the R-2800. Johnson repeatedly claimed he could pull 72" of MAP and reported airspeeds of 470 mph TAS. Squadron-mates agreed that Johnson's Jug was far faster than any other P-47 in the 61st FS. Lt. Joe Powers flew Johnson's Jug on an escort mission and was horrified at the thought of pulling 72" MAP when Gould briefed him on the airplane. Powers reportedly firewalled the throttle on the return leg and was stupified at the speed. He simply ran away from the rest of the squadron. Even though Johnson's Jug was fitted with water injection, Johnson never used it. In an interview for the P-47 Pilots Association newsletter, Johnson stated, "I didn't need it, it was fast enough."
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/rsj2.jpg
Lt. Robert S Johnson. Lawton, OK. 61st Fighter Squadron. P-47D 42-8461 HV-P "Lucky". Johnson seen here in front of his P-47 "Lucky" and flanked by Hub Zemke (L) and Bud Mahurin (R).

" Bob had a few Jugs shot up, he also killed a lot of 190s and 109s. There is little doubt that the P-47 was a very stout aircraft, generally over-engineered as compared to the P-51. Of all allied fighters in the ETO, the P-47 had the best loss per sortie ratio by a considerable margin. And keep in mind that the P-47 spent the last 9 months of the war down in the
weeds flying close support and interdiction where the flak is severe. If you have seen photos of the P-47C Johnson brought home (twenty-one 20mm hits), you realize that this was one rugged fighter. And yes, he was lucky that the hits were not concentrated in one locale. Yet, his tale was common-place."
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/rsj5.jpg

"As to the speed of his P-47; Pratt & Whitney tech reps were largely responsible for giving crew chief Pappy Gould the secrets of horsepower production in the R-2800. Engines with the same were tested at P&W and produced in excess of 2,700 hp on the dynometer, and did so for hundreds of hours at full throttle. The later "C" series R-2800 (used in the P-47M and N) generated 3,600 hp during similar endurance testing. It should not be a surprise that a P-47D-5-RE should attain similar speeds to the P-47M with 2,800 hp with slightly greater drag. Gould also filled all gaps in seams and waxed Johnson's Jug to reduce parasite drag.

I believe Johnson's observation was accurate, and it is supported by the
others in his squadron at the time (61st FS)."

RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5 was the best P-47 that I ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M which the 56th got near the end of the war.

CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?

RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.

CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?

RSJ: Of course.

CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?

RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.

CCJ: 300 indicated?

RSJ: Yes.

CCJ: What was your altitude?

RSJ: I guess it was right around 32,000 feet.

CCJ: Geez, thats well over 450 mph!

RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470.

CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?

RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.





http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson4.jpg
This is an excerpt from P51 Ace Bud Anderson in the early- of 1944. Notice how the germans practiced "Local Superiority" by massing large amounts of fighters in one area to attack the bomber streams.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm


Subject: Outnumbered P51 during Bomber Escort Duty


The Germans liked to roar through the bombers head-on, firing long bursts, and then roll and go down. They would circle around to get ahead of the bomber stream, groping for altitude, avoiding the escorts if possible, then reassemble and come through head-on again. When their fuel or ammunition was exhausted, they would land and refuel and take off again, flying mission after mission, for as long as there were bombers to shoot at. They seldom came after us. Normally, they would skirmish the escorts only out of necessity. We were an inconvenience, best avoided. It was the bombers they wanted, and the German pilots threw themselves at them smartly and bravely. It was our job to stop them.

It seemed we were always outnumbered. We had more fighters than they did, but what mattered was how many they could put up in one area. They would concentrate in huge numbers, by the hundreds at times. They would assemble way up ahead, pick a section of the bomber formation, and then come in head-on, their guns blazing, sometimes biting the bombers below us before we knew what was happening.

In the distance, a red and black smear marked the spot where a B-17 and its 10 men had been. Planes still bearing their bomb loads erupted and fell, trailing flame, streaking the sky, leaving gaps in the bomber formation that were quickly closed up.

"Bud" Anderson on wing of his "Old Crow" - the signed photo from collection of Martin Welsh (thanks!).

Through our headsets we could hear the war, working its way back toward us, coming straight at us at hundreds of miles per hour. The adrenaline began gushing, and I scanned the sky frantically, trying to pick out the fly-speck against the horizon that might have been somebody coming to kill us, trying to see him before be saw me, looking, squinting, breathless . . .

Over the radio: "Here they come!"

They'd worked over the bombers up ahead and now it was our turn.

Things happen quickly. We get rid of our drop tanks, slam the power up, and make a sweeping left turn to engage. My flight of four Mustangs is on the outside of the turn, a wingman close behind to my left, my element leader and his wingman behind to my right, all in finger formation. Open your right hand, tuck the thumb under, put the fingers together, and check the fingernails. That's how we flew, and fought. Two shooters, and two men to cover their tails. The Luftwaffe flew that way, too. German ace Werner Molders is generally credited with inventing the tactic during the Spanish Civil War.

Being on the outside of the turn, we are vulnerable to attack from the rear. I look over my right shoulder and, sure enough, I see four dots above us, way back, no threat at the moment, but coming hard down the chute. I start to call out, but . . .

"Four bogeys, five o'clock high!" My element leader, Eddie Simpson, has already seen them. Bogeys are unknowns and bandits are hostile. Quickly, the dots close and take shape. They're hostile, all right. They're Messerschmitts.

We turn hard to the right, pulling up into a tight string formation, spoiling their angle, and we try to come around and go at them head on. The Me 109s change course, charge past, and continue on down, and we wheel and give chase. There are four of them, single-seat fighters, and they pull up, turn hard, and we begin turning with them. We are circling now, tighter and tighter, chasing each other's tails, and I'm sitting there wondering what the hell's happening. These guys want to hang around. Curious. I'm wondering why they aren't after the bombers, why they're messing with us, whether they're simply creating some kind of a diversion or what. I would fly 116 combat missions, engage the enemy perhaps 40 times, shoot down 16 fighters, share in the destruction of a bomber, destroy another fighter on the ground, have a couple of aerial probables, and over that span it would be us bouncing them far more often than not. This was a switch.

We're flying tighter circles, gaining a little each turn, our throttles wide open, 30,000 feet up. The Mustang is a wonderful airplane, 37 feet wingtip to wingtip, just a little faster than the smaller German fighters, and also just a little more nimble. Suddenly the 109s, sensing things are not going well, roll out and run, turning east, flying level. Then one lifts up his nose and climbs away from the rest.

We roll out and go after them. They're flying full power, the black smoke pouring out their exhaust stacks. I'm looking at the one who is climbing, wondering what he is up to, and I'm thinking that if we stay with the other three, this guy will wind up above us. I send Simpson up after him. He and his wingman break off. My wingman, John Skara, and I chase the other three fighters, throttles all the way forward, and I can see that we're gaining.

I close to within 250 yards of the nearest Messerschmitt--dead astern, 6 o'clock, no maneuvering, no nothing--and squeeze the trigger on the control stick between my knees gently. Bambambambambam! The sound is loud in the cockpit in spite of the wind shriek and engine roar. And the vibration of the Mustang's four. 50-caliber machine guns, two in each wing, weighing 60-odd pounds apiece, is pronounced. In fact, you had to be careful in dogfights when you were turning hard, flying on the brink of a stall, because the buck of the guns was enough to peel off a few critical miles per hour and make the Mustang simply stop flying. That could prove downright embarrassing.

But I'm going like hell now, and I can see the bullets tearing at the Messerschmitt's wing root and fuselage. The armor-piercing ammunition we used was also incendiary, and hits were easily visible, making a bright flash and puff. Now the 109's trailing smoke thickens, and it's something more than exhaust smoke. He slows, and then suddenly rolls over. But the plane doesn't fall. It continues on, upside down, straight and level! What the hell . . . ?

The pilot can't be dead. It takes considerable effort to fly one of these fighter planes upside down. You have to push hard on the controls. Flying upside down isn't easy. It isn't something that happens all by itself, or that you do accidentally. So what in the world is be doing?

Well. It's an academic question, because I haven't the time to wait and find out. I pour another burst into him, pieces start flying off, I see flame, and the 109 plummets and falls into a spin, belching smoke. My sixth kill.

The other two Messerschmitt pilots have pulled away now, and they're nervous. Their airplanes are twitching, the fliers obviously straining to look over their shoulders and see what is happening. As we take up the chase again, two against two now, the trailing 109 peels away and dives for home, and the leader pulls up into a sharp climbing turn to the left. This one can fly, and he obviously has no thought of running. I'm thinking this one could be trouble.

We turn inside him, my wingman and I, still at long range, and he pulls around harder, passing in front of us right-to-left at an impossible angle. I want to swing in behind him, but I'm going too fast, and figure I would only go skidding on past. A Mustang at speed simply can't make a square corner. And in a dogfight you don't want to surrender your airspeed. I decide to overshoot him and climb.

He reverses his turn, trying to fall in behind us. My wingman is vulnerable now. I tell Skara, "Break off!" and be peels away. The German goes after him, and I go after the German, closing on his tail before he can close on my wingman. He sees me coming and dives away with me after him, then makes a climbing left turn. I go screaming by, pull up, and he's reversing his turn--man, be can fly!--and be comes crawling right up behind me, close enough that I can see him distinctly. He's bringing his nose up for a shot, and I haul back on the stick and climb even harder. I keep going up, because I'm out of alternatives.

This is what I see all these years later. If I were the sort to be troubled with nightmares, this is what would shock me awake. I am in this steep climb, pulling the stick into my navel, making it steeper, steeper . . . and I am looking back down, over my shoulder, at this classic gray Me 109 with black crosses that is pulling up, too, steeper, steeper, the pilot trying to get his nose up just a little bit more and bring me into his sights.

There is nothing distinctive about the aircraft, no fancy markings, nothing to identify it as the plane of an ace, as one of the "dreaded yellow-noses" like you see in the movies. Some of them did that, I know, but I never saw one. And in any event, all of their aces weren't flamboyant types who splashed paint on their airplanes to show who they were. I suppose I could go look it up in the archives. There's the chance I could find him in some gruppe's log book, having flown on this particular day, in this particular place, a few miles northwest of the French town of Strasbourg that sits on the Rhine. There are fellows who've done that, gone back and looked up their opponents. I never have. I never saw any point.

He was someone who was trying to kill me, is all.

So I'm looking back, almost straight down now, and I can see this 20-millimeter cannon sticking through the middle of the fighter's propeller hub. In the theater of my memory, it is enormous. An elephant gun. And that isn't far wrong. It is a gun designed to bring down a bomber, one that fires shells as long as your hand, shells that explode and tear big holes in metal. It is the single most frightening thing I have seen in my life, then and now.

But I'm too busy to be frightened. Later on, you might sit back and perspire about it, maybe 40-50 years later, say, sitting on your porch 7,000 miles away, but while it is happening you are just too **** busy. And I am extremely busy up here, hanging by my propeller, going almost straight up, full emergency power, which a Mustang could do for only so long before losing speed, shuddering, stalling, and falling back down; and I am thinking that if the Mustang stalls before the Messerschmitt stalls, I have had it.

I look back, and I can see that he's shuddering, on the verge of a stall. He hasn't been able to get his nose up enough, hasn't been able to bring that big gun to bear. Almost, but not quite. I'm a fallen-down-dead man almost, but not quite. His nose begins dropping just as my airplane, too, begins shuddering. He stalls a second or two before I stall, drops away before I do.

Good old Mustang.

He is falling away now, and I flop the nose over and go after him hard. We are very high by this time, six miles and then some, and falling very, very fast. The Messerschmitt had a head start, plummeting out of my range, but I'm closing up quickly. Then he flattens out and comes around hard to the left and starts climbing again, as if he wants to come at me head on. Suddenly we're right back where we started.

A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.

So the Messerschmitt is coming around again, climbing hard to his left, and I've had about enough of this. My angle is a little bit better this time. So I roll the dice. Instead of cobbing it like before and sailing on by him, I decide to turn hard left inside him, knowing that if I lose speed and don't make it I probably won't get home. I pull back on the throttle slightly, put down 10 degrees of flaps, and haul back on the stick just as hard as I can. And the nose begins coming up and around, slowly, slowly. . .

Hot ****! I'm going to make it! I'm inside him, pulling my sights up to him. And the German pilot can see this. This time, it's the Messerschmitt that breaks away and goes zooming straight up, engine at maximum power, without much alternative. I come in with full power and follow him up, and the gap narrows swiftly. He is hanging by his prop, not quite vertically, and I am right there behind him, and it is terribly clear, having tested the theory less than a minute ago, that he is going to stall and fall away before I do.

I have him. He must know that I have him.

I bring my nose up, he comes into my sights, and from less than 300 yards I trigger a long, merciless burst from my Brownings. Every fifth bullet or so is a tracer, leaving a thin trail of smoke, marking the path of the bullet stream. The tracers race upward and find him. The bullets chew at the wing root, the cockpit, the engine, making bright little flashes. I hose the Messerschmitt down the way you'd hose down a campfire, methodically, from one end to the other, not wanting to make a mistake here. The 109 shakes like a retriever coming out of the water, throwing off pieces. He slows, almost stops, as if parked in the sky, his propeller just windmilling, and he begins smoking heavily.

My momentum carries me to him. I throttle back to ease my plane alongside, just off his right wing. Have I killed him? I do not particularly want to fight this man again. I am coming up even with the cockpit, and although I figure the less I know about him the better, I find myself looking in spite of myself. There is smoke in the cockpit. I can see that, nothing more. Another few feet. . . .

And then he falls away suddenly, left wing down, right wing rising up, obscuring my view. I am looking at the 109's sky blue belly, the wheel wells, twin radiators, grease marks, streaks from the guns, the black crosses. I am close enough to make out the rivets. The Messerschmitt is right there and then it is gone, just like that, rolling away and dropping its nose and falling (flying?) almost straight down, leaking coolant and trailing flame and smoke so black and thick that it has to be oil smoke. It simply plunges, heading straight for the deck. No spin, not even a wobble, no parachute, and now I am wondering. His ship seems a death ship--but is it?

Undecided, I peel off and begin chasing him down. Did I squander a chance here? Have I let him escape? He is diving hard enough to be shedding his wings, harder than anyone designed those airplanes to dive, 500 miles an hour and more, and if 109s will stall sooner than Mustangs going straight up, now I am worrying that maybe their wings stay on longer. At 25,000 feet I begin to grow nervous. I pull back on the throttle, ease out of the dive, and watch him go down. I have no more stomach for this kind of thing, not right now, not with this guy. Enough. Let him go and to hell with him.

Straight down be plunges, from as high as 35,000 feet, through this beautiful, crystal clear May morning toward the green-on-green checkerboard fields, leaving a wake of black smoke. From four miles straight up I watch as the Messerschmitt and the shadow it makes on the ground rush toward one another . . .

. . . and then, finally, silently, merge.

Eddie Simpson joins up with me. Both wingmen, too. Simpson, my old wingman and friend, had gotten the one who'd climbed out. We'd bagged three of the four. We were very excited. It had been a good day.

I had lived and my opponent had died. But it was a near thing. It could have been the other way around just as easily, and what probably made the difference was the airplane I flew. Made in America. I would live to see the day when people would try to tell me the United States can't make cars like some other folks do. What a laugh. ..."

Note: The above article is excerpted from the book To Fly and Fight: Memoirs of a Triple Ace by Col C. E. "Bud" Anderson with Joseph P. Hamelin.

For more details about "Bud" Anderson and his book, check here: http://www.cebudanderson.com/

BuzzU
04-02-2005, 10:16 AM
Great post Kahuna. Some interesting points.

P-51 out climbed and out turned the 109.

The .50's left smoke trails.

AFJMantis
04-02-2005, 05:43 PM
http://home.attmil.ne.jp/a/Mantis/jug1.jpg
http://home.attmil.ne.jp/a/Mantis/jug2.jpg
http://home.attmil.ne.jp/a/Mantis/jug3.jpg

Jagdklinger
04-02-2005, 07:08 PM
@Kahuna - I really enjoyed your post - some good info there! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Of course the P38 and the P47 do not have the representaive flight model of what they were truely able to do in real life as opposed to how they are undermodled in AEP/PF. US aircraft always seem to be short changed in dive superiority and energy retention. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree US were short changed, especially the exact two you have mentioned. Must be the ugly factor. After all, the better-looking P51 is quite good. (or is it the British Merlin?) Of course, if they€d impressed the Russians, Oleg€d probably have modeled them to outfly the La7 €¦

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> to bad the US Navy stopped the invasion of Austrailia at the battle of Coral Sea, it sounds like you need a little refresh time in a japanese pow camp so you could read up on your history books http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! The invasion of Australia might have been tricky for the Japanese anyway, if all of our forces weren€t abroad, having jumped in to defend Poland and our British allies from the start - instead of sitting back, making money, and only getting involved years later when directly attacked (which was, admittedly, the smart thing to do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) Now ironically, we€re still wading into the sh** after our allies €" this time, USA. Vietnam anyone?

To moderate the above sarcasm, can I say that, in defiance to all the anti-American sentiment about nowadays, my screensaver is an American flag, and I regard USA as the second best country after Australia (hey, we even have our own continent!)€¦ and maybe Denmark (they had the good sense to obtain an Australian princess)€¦

The 'numerical superiority' was referring to overall military might (with Russian ground forces in mind) rather than the air forces in particular - I still maintain it was the Allies industrial capacity and wealth of resources that won it, NOT the Jug, but hey, their efforts are still pretty impressive even if they couldn€t carry an A-bomb€¦ Although this probably because their opponents primary weapon (20mm MG151) were less effective than a .22 cal handgun. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Even in 1945 the Luftwaffe were a force - they had the Bf109K...

Btw, I thought the P51 also claimed to have won the war? I haven€t responded to that thread, as (based on my flawless knowledge of real-life as reflected by IL-2) there may have been an element of truth in it€¦

Thanks for links €" I used to collect that sort of info in my teenage years (actually what prompted me to buy Il-2 last year €" I recognized it from my reference books and I thought the game sounded obscure enough to be interesting.)

Cheers!

@AFJ Mantis. The Avenger pic was apt! Although I only could stand to look at the bloated things for a few seconds€¦ The rounded wingtips have always intrigued me - a failed attempt to mimic the performance and grace of the Spitfire?

psychoslaphead
04-02-2005, 11:03 PM
&gt;&gt;Busting German chops before the Mustang was glimmer in the USAAF's eye!&lt;&lt;

The P-47 didn't get operational until April 1943. The Mustang was getting FW190 kills in mid 1942 with the RAF/RCAF during reconnaissance and interdiction missions.

At one point (April-June 1942), the Brits were seriously considering replacing the Spitfire with a Merlin XX powered Mustang as the Spit was being SPANKED by the 190. Consultations were made between the AFDU and Rolls Royce to make this happen. Ultimately, they were afraid that the USAAF would pull the plane away from them if they did this, which is exactly what happened in the end.

Source: The Mustang Story - Ken Delve

VW-IceFire
04-03-2005, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Great post Kahuna. Some interesting points.

P-51 out climbed and out turned the 109.

The .50's left smoke trails. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AT 30,000 feet. How often do you engage 109s at that altitude? Because the Mustang is better up there...for sure. The 109 is very stiff.

Yes for smoke trails.

Copperhead310th
04-03-2005, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
Always wondered why they made it so big.For ground pounding ok but for escorting?It`s so big it obscures almost the whole windshield from 50m.

No offense,the belly reminds me of a pregnant cat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because unlike other fighter designs of that time. the tHUNDERBOLT WAS DESIGNED AROUND IT'S ENGINE. and not the engine to the aircraft as was normally done. that Pratt & Whit engine (r-2800 Wasp) is a monster of a power plant. and the ducting was the cause of a lot of the "largeness" of the p-47.
in a nut shell.

Hristos
04-03-2005, 11:49 AM
Thunderbolt always reminds me of this guy.

http://www.popcorn.hr/modules/special/images/variations/b4ca57c31c10031ae6a9d28fddcc808c_large.jpg
http://www.popcorn.hr/modules/special/images/variations/fbe8306e85be1e45ca496a05319c6840_large.jpg
http://www.popcorn.hr/modules/special/images/variations/1d4e5208ebd51ed95ec04a1a9da01353_large.jpg

BuzzU
04-03-2005, 11:50 AM
How do you explain the Hellcat being much smaller?

1.JaVA_Razer
04-03-2005, 11:51 AM
If I could ever own ONE plane it'd be a Jug ....


This is THE plane for me.... No really, this is "my" plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I first thought it was the P38 but no sir, thunderbolt all the way my frends

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

F19_Olli72
04-03-2005, 12:05 PM
I never really thought much of the Jug before. I always felt it was heavy and difficult. On GG earlier today i wasnt doing that well in a P-38 (got some groundtargets but slaughtered by fighters).

I just thought to heck with it and took a Jug. 2 minutes after takeoff i bagged a 109K4, four minutes later i shot down a FW D9 (though he appeared to be damaged when i first saw him). Both fights were below 2000m.

I might learn to like it after all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And i think its a good looking plane too.

JG5_UnKle
04-03-2005, 01:05 PM
Yes it's a shame there aren't more good Jug pilots out there - they seem few and far between http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

jugent
04-03-2005, 01:42 PM
In the world created by Maddox everything can happend.
The Boulton-Paul "Defiant"
can outspeed, outcurve and outclimb anything. Their gunturrent was deadly. The D520 was outstanding
Wait and see the BoB patch.

NorrisMcWhirter
04-03-2005, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
I never really thought much of the Jug before. I always felt it was heavy and difficult. On GG earlier today i wasnt doing that well in a P-38 (got some groundtargets but slaughtered by fighters).

I just thought to heck with it and took a Jug. 2 minutes after takeoff i bagged a 109K4, four minutes later i shot down a FW D9 (though he appeared to be damaged when i first saw him). Both fights were below 2000m.

I might learn to like it after all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And i think its a good looking plane too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

^ I think I was that D9 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'd just shot up a couple of P51s then got hit by some mg fire over that town. You caught me trying to nurse the engine back to base.

Cheers,
Norris

Secudus2004
04-03-2005, 02:36 PM
I wonder what alot of people will do when Olegs BoB comes out...

I don't think we (The British) were flying any of the Yank crates back then, so any lovers of that ilk will have to either;
Continue to fly this sim.
Until;
3rd party modelers are allowed to contribute to Bob or Oleg starts to let later AC into his sim...

Until either of that happens were left with two choices: British or German...Lol!

Regards

Sec.

Blackdog5555
04-03-2005, 03:08 PM
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4807/p-47.html

dont kid yourself, P47N..a "fighter" plane that can carry 3000lbs, climb 3000ft/mi, top speed of 460mph. with a range of 2000 mi plus..There is a reason that Oleg didnt put it in the Sim..Dominatrix. A thing of pure beauty. Like a Dodge GTX, simple lines, unpretentious, pure power. Not some phoney sports car plane with short legs and tiny gun belt. A P47 with a .7% loss rate in combat. Yes, a plane , if it was a girl you would marry. Maybe.

Hristos
04-03-2005, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4807/p-47.html

dont kid yourself, P47N..a "fighter" plane that can carry 3000lbs, climb 3000ft/mi, top speed of 460mph. with a range of 2000 mi plus..There is a reason that Oleg didnt put it in the Sim..Dominatrix. A thing of pure beauty. Like a Dodge GTX, simple lines, unpretentious, pure power. Not some phoney sports car plane with short legs and tiny gun belt. A P47 with a .7% loss rate in combat. Yes, a plane , if it was a girl you would marry. Maybe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd take 262 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jagdklinger
04-03-2005, 03:38 PM
@Hristos. Nice pics - I see the resemblance too!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

blakduk
04-03-2005, 07:29 PM
The thing about the jug is, its not pretty but it flies hard and can take a hell of a knock. It has no pretentions, it was built to do job which it did well.
BTW- Jagdklinger, those T28's at the airshows in Oz are the ones we brought back from Laos. The one based in Albury has the Laotian airforce markings (i think it is soon to be based at Temora in NSW).

darkhorizon11
04-03-2005, 08:10 PM
I won't get into the flamethrowing (this time) as much as saying the assumption that all US planes are gas guzzling buckets of bolts is a downright lie.

I fly both sides and love the Jug both in game and IRL because its survivability. Argue numbers all you want but the real test is pilot skill.

With that said the key is survivability. That plane could all kinds of battle damage. Holes in wings, fuselage, entire cylinders shot away, you name it, all kinds of punishment.

Its eight .50 cals are ferocious as well. In my opinion theres no German plane that can real match it overall. The Mustang is constantly raped of his credibility over and status over the German fighters. The Jug however is one plane the Luftwaffe fans just can't shake off. It was that good.

Jagdklinger
04-04-2005, 01:48 AM
darkhorizon11..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I won't get into the flamethrowing
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, you just did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Besides, there ain't no flaming going on here - just trying to help the P47 drivers recover from their delusions of grandeur... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the assumption that all US planes are gas guzzling buckets of bolts is a downright lie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon. The P47 ISN'T a gas guzzler? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Name one American plane that isn't. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>that plane could all kinds of battle damage. Holes in wings, fuselage, entire cylinders shot away, you name it, all kinds of punishment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one disputes that. Built like a brick s***house. My point is, it also flies like one... (albeit with a huge radial tacked on the front) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Mustang is constantly raped of his credibility over and status over the German fighters <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, where's those P51 jocks when you need 'em?
You're saying a P47 is better? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In my opinion theres no German plane that can real match it overall. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, thats those 'delusions of grandeur' I'm talking about. Even the ancient Bf109 equals it in speed, and can out-turn and outclimb it, and the contemporary Fw190 outguns, outruns, and outrolls it. How is the P-47 better? (Besides hauling bombs - yawn). And with the current MG151s (yes, I HAD to bring it up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) ANY red plane is survivable in-game...

F19_Olli72
04-04-2005, 02:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
See, thats those 'delusions of grandeur' I'm talking about. Even the ancient Bf109 equals it in speed, and can out-turn and outclimb it, and the contemporary Fw190 outguns, outruns, and outrolls it. How is the P-47 better? (Besides hauling bombs - yawn). And with the current MG151s (yes, I HAD to bring it up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) ANY red plane is survivable in-game... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A BIG yawn.... you gripe about your guns too weak but fail to recognize divespeed is incorrectly modelled too. If it wasnt, your puny FW would be left in the dust before you could say "luftwaffle" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Hristos
04-04-2005, 02:57 AM
luftwaffle

WOLFMondo
04-04-2005, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Name one American plane that isn't. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

P51 ain't a gas guzzeler...but then it had a nice efficient British enginehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P38's pretty efficient too.

Jagdklinger, above 8000m I'd take a P47 over any other plane currently in FB. At that height its only threat is the Ta152. And yes, dive speed is modelled, this has been proven so why do people keep whining about it?

Hristos
04-04-2005, 03:16 AM
Of course it is modeled. P-47s regularly outdive my Fw 190A-9 from 3000m down, even though my plane is faster down low.

And on the deck it takes very long until I start to catch up.

But let's wait for 4.0, shall we ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Olli72
04-04-2005, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
And yes, dive speed is modelled, this has been proven so why do people keep whining about it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mistake i guess i meant "dive accelleration". Heard the saying "nothing outdives a Jug"? Any german fighter (of the same year) regardless of altitude can keep up and even catch a Jug in FB. Doesnt seem correct to me....

Im willing to do a challange test. Anyone who claims they cant can join me on a server and they can take the P-47 ill take a FW or 109 and do a dive race. We can then post the result in public to show who is right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How about it Hristos? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

darkhorizon11
04-04-2005, 12:43 PM
Okay I don't go shot for shot line for line (yawn). But with all due respect...

I do take the IL2FB P-47 over the Mustang. I love the Mustang also.

But vs. the German planes, the P-47 does eat more gas than pretty much any other prop, however to say all American aircraft guzzle gas in comparison to their Axis counterparts is inaccurate. The Mustang could fly all the way to Berlin from England while during the BoB the 109 couldn't fight for more than 20 over London.

But to keep this thread on topic about the Jug...

I would trade maneuverability for the power and armor of the Jug. It escorted bombers as high as 37,000 feet on some missions which was unmatched by anything the Germans had prior to late 1944. It dives like a rocket and though the FWs edge it out in climb and straight and level its nothing superior pilot skill can't achieve. It loops and rolls relatively slow, but in my opinion relatively fast for something that weighs over 7 tons fully loaded.

As for armament, the German cannons are respectable and powerful but much more tricky to aim. The P-47 carries eight browning .50 caliber machine guns. This guns shredded anything it touched, literally. Although the German MK rounds were individually much more powerful the damage inflicted by the .50 cals, the sheer amount of bullets being spattered by the combo of guns on a P-47 is unparalleled.
The only way a German fighter could match this is if it carries extra gunpods which pretty much then nullifies the speed and maneuverability advantages. It can further be stated that the .50 cal was not only one of the most versatile guns of the war, but it is still used today. Can't say that about the MK 108 or 103...

"The high-altitude performance of the P-47C was far superior to anything the Luftwaffe could put up against it, but at low and medium altitudes the P-47C could not match the maneuverability and climb rates of its opponents. However, the P-47C could out-dive just about anything in the sky, and many a Thunderbolt saved itself from a sticky situation by using its superior diving performance to break off combat at will when it proved necessary to do so. According to Robert S. Johnson of the 56th Fighter Group, the Thunderbolt could outroll any other fighter. The Thunderbolt's eight 0.50-inch machine guns provided sufficient firepower to destroy any enemy plane which had the misfortune to come within its sights. The robust construction of the Thunderbolt enabled it to absorb a considerable amount of battle damage and still stagger home to fight another day."

The P-47 was quite a threat and it should be also stated that generally neither side prefered turn fighting in the first place, including the Germans. Most pilots would choose to dive away and escape rather than risk having an enemy closing on their six.

The combat performance record of the P 47 reflects this. The loss rate of a Thunderbolt was only 0.7% per mission, with only 824 lost in the heat of combat. Overall 5222 were lost, which goes to show you how many accidents there were. Weigh this against 12,000 aircraft destroyed on the ground and in the air. Sure the FW-190 and Me-109 can post some big number also, but the Thunderbolts combat record extends from March 1943 to August of 1945, only two and a half years. Variants of the 109 saw combat for almost six years and can't put up numbers like that.

Here's my source. (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47.html)

NorrisMcWhirter
04-04-2005, 01:53 PM
That's all very well and good but in this game, the P47 is outclassed by the FW190 in 80% of combat situations that occur below 6k + I doubt the credibility of high alt combat in the game because of the limitations of the engine.

I say this because, from personal experience, it's very rare that I get shot down by a P47...but I seem to shoot down plenty of them.

Also, when I take off in a 190 or a P47 (and I fly both), I feel that I've a lot more chance of making home in one piece in a FW190 than a P47.

Besides, I'm surprised to see a suggestion that 8x0.50s could outclass 4x20mm cannons or 2x20mm + 2x30mm particularly in fighter to fighter combat....until you factor in spraying and praying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris

VW-IceFire
04-04-2005, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
That's all very well and good but in this game, the P47 is outclassed by the FW190 in 80% of combat situations that occur below 6k + I doubt the credibility of high alt combat in the game because of the limitations of the engine.

I say this because, from personal experience, it's very rare that I get shot down by a P47...but I seem to shoot down plenty of them.

Also, when I take off in a 190 or a P47 (and I fly both), I feel that I've a lot more chance of making home in one piece in a FW190 than a P47.

Besides, I'm surprised to see a suggestion that 8x0.50s could outclass 4x20mm cannons or 2x20mm + 2x30mm particularly in fighter to fighter combat....until you factor in spraying and praying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The age old 20mm vs .50cal argument. As has been beaten out of people time and time again...the 20mm is physically more destructive...but the ballistic advantage of the .50cal means its easier to aim. Its give and take http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
04-04-2005, 02:07 PM
Hi Ice.

Indeed, it is easier to aim...right up to about 600m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, something contrary to the actually gunnery advice indicated in a thread in ORR some time ago.

I'll stick with the 2x30mm...they make pretty pictures on the screen when they land http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers,
Norris

Blutarski2004
04-04-2005, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi Ice.

Indeed, it is easier to aim...right up to about 600m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, something contrary to the actually gunnery advice indicated in a thread in ORR some time ago.

I'll stick with the 2x30mm...they make pretty pictures on the screen when they land http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


When the lead-computing K14 gunsight was fitted, kills at ranges of 400 yards up to even 700 yards were made by M2 50cal armed fighters and were not uncommon (at least among aces). Shooting at distances over 300 yards was an aiming and deflection problem rather than a ballistics problem. The M2 still had sufficient ballistic density at the target and projectile striking energy to be dangerous.

I'm not arguing that such a shot could be accomplished against an evasively maneuvering target - hardly likely in fact IMO. But most (or all) of these long range kills were probably made against pilots who were either bounced unawares or who assumed that they were safe at such an apparently long range.

The 1952 USAF fighter gunnery manual, which is based upon the K14 and K16(?) gunsights as standard equipment, considered 400 yards to be effective range for 50cal armed fighters.

horseback
04-04-2005, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
How do you explain the Hellcat being much smaller? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever seen the two side by side? Not much to choose between 'em for size. They are two of a kind; one for kicking @ss high and one for busting your chops low.

You must mean the Wildcat. That is noticeably smaller than the Jug.

And jagd, the rounded wingtips and elliptial wings are on all of Alexander de Seversky's fighters, which almost predate the Spitfire.

cheers

horseback

NorrisMcWhirter
04-04-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi Ice.

Indeed, it is easier to aim...right up to about 600m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, something contrary to the actually gunnery advice indicated in a thread in ORR some time ago.

I'll stick with the 2x30mm...they make pretty pictures on the screen when they land http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


When the lead-computing K14 gunsight was fitted, kills at ranges of 400 yards up to even 700 yards were made by M2 50cal armed fighters and were not uncommon (at least among aces). Shooting at distances over 300 yards was an aiming and deflection problem rather than a ballistics problem. The M2 still had sufficient ballistic density at the target and projectile striking energy to be dangerous.

I'm not arguing that such a shot could be accomplished against an evasively maneuvering target - hardly likely in fact IMO. But most (or all) of these long range kills were probably made against pilots who were either bounced unawares or who assumed that they were safe at such an apparently long range.

The 1952 USAF fighter gunnery manual, which is based upon the K14 and K16(?) gunsights as standard equipment, considered 400 yards to be effective range for 50cal armed fighters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I believe 400yds (~m) was quoted in ORR, too. Like you say, I don't doubt that you could critically damage an non-evading fighter from 600m but that you'd have to be either very lucky or a very good shot indeed to get someone flying 'messily' away at high speed.

Then again, I always get a little annoyed by long range hopeful spraying for no other reason than I prefer to get in close and personal..something borne more out of necessity as much as personal preference.

If that's the modus operandi of the weapon, however, then so be it.

Cheers,
Norris

alitomdq
04-04-2005, 05:58 PM
P-47...
Too fat for my taste.. I prefere the perfect silohuette of an 190 or an 109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RxMan
04-04-2005, 06:13 PM
A P-47 will be flying at the Galveston, TX airshow
on the 23rd and 24th of this month (April).

WUAF_LtC_Prop
04-04-2005, 06:59 PM
wanna hear a jug firing up.....here ya go....

P47D cranking up (http://www.enginehistory.org/Sounds/P-47D_2.mp3)

By the way CRANK your speakers up

Copperhead310th
04-04-2005, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
In the world created by Maddox everything can happend.
The Boulton-Paul "Defiant"
can outspeed, outcurve and outclimb anything. Their gunturrent was deadly. The D520 was outstanding
Wait and see the BoB patch. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What are you talking about? i got a whole squad of em' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
and the Guys in the 56th ain't too shabby of jug pilots either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif but yer are right in a way.
there are a lot fewer of us than there should be.

Copperhead310th
04-04-2005, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4807/p-47.html

dont kid yourself, P47N..a "fighter" plane that can carry 3000lbs, climb 3000ft/mi, top speed of 460mph. with a range of 2000 mi plus..There is a reason that Oleg didnt put it in the Sim..Dominatrix. A thing of pure beauty. Like a Dodge GTX, simple lines, unpretentious, pure power. Not some phoney sports car plane with short legs and tiny gun belt. A P47 with a .7% loss rate in combat. Yes, a plane , if it was a girl you would marry. Maybe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd take 262 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol what a joke. it's a flying matchbook. hahaha
paaaalease. i eat 262's for lunch in a D-27.
do i really need to post the kill shots from me kiling a 262 with a p-40 & a p-39????
me-262 hahaha lol you better get some where with that cr@p.

heywooood
04-04-2005, 08:56 PM
there is nothing like the sight of two Jugs together doing a low pass at your friendly neighborhood airshow...less it be 3 or 4 sets of Jugs together at the bistro...

Ahhh a fine pair of Jugs is just what we all need to experience as often as possible....at least thats one Beastro's oppinion.

JR_Greenhorn
04-04-2005, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
How do you explain the Hellcat being [somewhat] smaller? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No turbo plumbing in belly?

Hristos
04-04-2005, 11:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crapperhead310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4807/p-47.html

dont kid yourself, P47N..a "fighter" plane that can carry 3000lbs, climb 3000ft/mi, top speed of 460mph. with a range of 2000 mi plus..There is a reason that Oleg didnt put it in the Sim..Dominatrix. A thing of pure beauty. Like a Dodge GTX, simple lines, unpretentious, pure power. Not some phoney sports car plane with short legs and tiny gun belt. A P47 with a .7% loss rate in combat. Yes, a plane , if it was a girl you would marry. Maybe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd take 262 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol what a joke. it's a flying matchbook. hahaha
paaaalease. i eat 262's for lunch in a D-27.
do i really need to post the kill shots from me kiling a 262 with a p-40 & a p-39????
me-262 hahaha lol you better get some where with that cr@p. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deal ! Once you think you're good enough, you're welcome to try Warclouds in any red plane, Crapperhead. If you can work out that I can fly the "matchbook", I'll personally thank you with couple of MK108 rounds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jagdklinger
04-05-2005, 12:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Deal ! Once you think you're good enough, you're welcome to try Warclouds in any red plane, Crapperhead . If you can work out that I can fly the "matchbook", I'll personally thank you with couple of MK108 rounds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It never ceases to impress me how people, for whom English is presumably not their first language, pick up the naunces so brilliantly when it comes to insults. There's probably a moral there somewhere... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hristos
04-05-2005, 12:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Deal ! Once you think you're good enough, you're welcome to try Warclouds in any red plane, _Crapperhead_ . If you can work out that I can fly the "matchbook", I'll personally thank you with couple of MK108 rounds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It never ceases to impress me how people, for whom English is presumably not their first language, pick up the naunces so brilliantly when it comes to insults. There's probably a moral there somewhere... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They say I'm a quick learner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, I think it is nuance, not naunce http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I could be wrong, English is not my first language.

Copperhead310th
04-05-2005, 08:47 PM
ya think?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifhey yer on buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
i'll be looking for yas.
i'm over there quite a bit.
by the way try not to scream like a little Biach when you see red tracer flying past yer cockpit. lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

oh and here's a little preview....

Wow who'd have thought that a P-39 was such an UBER plane? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif lol
http://invisionfree.com/forums/310th_VFBG/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=828529

Little Warhawk oWnAgE for ya. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
http://invisionfree.com/forums/310th_VFBG/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=828530

blakduk
04-05-2005, 09:37 PM
Just goes to show, as i have done frequently, that you can fly anything badly.