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View Full Version : 109 - big joke with its no stall, high speed roll, hyper accurate 108



HayateAce
05-07-2005, 08:35 AM
So kwiatos is allowed NO PROOF posting in ORR, with Ivan mod posting directly after.

It is common knowledge 109 is overmodeled and considered widely NOOB. Hopefully new FM fixes joke 109. Now, we will see bias remove this although spit thread allowed 4 pages already.

FB~109:

K4 stall less than F4

Macro Drop All Speed Stop Midair cheat

Stall at 10ft above ground, release stick = auto recover, continue fight

Stall on purpose to evade, NO flat spin, continue fight (would be death, real life)

Prop pitch cheat

High speed aileron too much control

too accurate bomber buster 108 use on fighters

Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c

Now out turn most other planes in game, except obvious krap plane and some Yak. Spit on barely turn better.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

robban75
05-07-2005, 08:39 AM
I could do some in-game testing if you like? Get a little 109 vs Spit comparison going on in here as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

crazyivan1970
05-07-2005, 09:09 AM
Wanna play games with me Ace?

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-07-2005, 09:10 AM
Dont forget its magic engine break http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
05-07-2005, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
So kwiatos is allowed NO PROOF posting in ORR, with Ivan mod posting directly after.

Wanna play games with me Ace? Ok, i`ll bite...



It is common knowledge 109 is overmodeled and considered widely NOOB. Hopefully new FM fixes joke 109. Now, we will see bias remove this although spit thread allowed 4 pages already.


Laughable



FB~109:

K4 stall less than F4



Obviously you experiance is very limited in BF109s



Macro Drop All Speed Stop Midair cheat


Ok, that`s new - prove it



Stall at 10ft above ground, release stick = auto recover, continue fight


10FT is 3meters - track please of you smoking hole in the ground.



Stall on purpose to evade, NO flat spin, continue fight (would be death, real life)


I can name you 50 planes that do the same



Prop pitch cheat

Exploit of something that existed



High speed aileron too much control


Once again, your time is limited in 109



too accurate bomber buster 108 use on fighters


Came across good LW jock? They are capable of that



Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c


109 is famous for negative loop. but i can name you few others that can do the same



Now out turn most other planes in game, except obvious krap plane and some Yak. Spit on barely turn better.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Once again, you encountered someone is better then you... so what`s your question again? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaNorris
05-07-2005, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
So kwiatos is allowed NO PROOF posting in ORR, with Ivan mod posting directly after.

Wanna play games with me Ace? Ok, i`ll bite...



It is common knowledge 109 is overmodeled and considered widely NOOB. Hopefully new FM fixes joke 109. Now, we will see bias remove this although spit thread allowed 4 pages already.


Laughable



FB~109:

K4 stall less than F4



Obviously you experiance is very limited in BF109s



Macro Drop All Speed Stop Midair cheat


Ok, that`s new - prove it



Stall at 10ft above ground, release stick = auto recover, continue fight


10FT is 3meters - track please of you smoking hole in the ground.



Stall on purpose to evade, NO flat spin, continue fight (would be death, real life)


I can name you 50 planes that do the same



Prop pitch cheat

Exploit of something that existed



High speed aileron too much control


Once again, your time is limited in 109



too accurate bomber buster 108 use on fighters


Came across good LW jock? They are capable of that



Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c


109 is famous for negative loop. but i can name you few others that can do the same



Now out turn most other planes in game, except obvious krap plane and some Yak. Spit on barely turn better.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Once again, you encountered someone is better then you... so what`s your question again? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly the Bf-109 alot, CrazyIvan, and I agree with everything you say, He mustn't fly the 109 much at all, Must be a Spit NOOB.

csThor
05-07-2005, 09:40 AM
Hayate's WhineMode is definitely overmodelled. And onesided http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

carguy_
05-07-2005, 09:42 AM
With you piloting every enemy of yours is a UFO.

BuzzU
05-07-2005, 10:03 AM
How about the 109K climb rate?

Robban...Do you think it's right?

actionhank1786
05-07-2005, 10:03 AM
So this one time, i was flying offline in my 109. i was going head on at a bomber formation, and decided to turn around, so i did a magic speed dumping something er' other, and stopped mid air, stalled, but didn't spin, then picked them all off with my hyper-accurate Mk 108 canon, i was miles away, and it doesn't drop at all...honestly, it's not like the minute i fire the **** thing it's 10 feet below my nose already, leaving me to sight with a .50 cal hole in the floor, but aside from that, i flew back to base, and stalled 3 feet off the ground, and my plane recovered and i landed.
Then the captain and i made smores

BuzzU
05-07-2005, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by actionhank1786:
So this one time, i was flying offline in my 109. i was going head on at a bomber formation, and decided to turn around, so i did a magic speed dumping something er' other, and stopped mid air, stalled, but didn't spin, then picked them all off with my hyper-accurate Mk 108 canon, i was miles away, and it doesn't drop at all...honestly, it's not like the minute i fire the **** thing it's 10 feet below my nose already, leaving me to sight with a .50 cal hole in the floor, but aside from that, i flew back to base, and stalled 3 feet off the ground, and my plane recovered and i landed.
Then the captain and i made smores

Sounds about right.

How were the smores?

S.taibanzai
05-07-2005, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
So kwiatos is allowed NO PROOF posting in ORR, with Ivan mod posting directly after.

It is common knowledge 109 is overmodeled and considered widely NOOB. Hopefully new FM fixes joke 109. Now, we will see bias remove this although spit thread allowed 4 pages already.

FB~109:

K4 stall less than F4

Macro Drop All Speed Stop Midair cheat

Stall at 10ft above ground, release stick = auto recover, continue fight

Stall on purpose to evade, NO flat spin, continue fight (would be death, real life)

Prop pitch cheat

High speed aileron too much control

too accurate bomber buster 108 use on fighters

Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c

Now out turn most other planes in game, except obvious krap plane and some Yak. Spit on barely turn better.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Stop drinking man http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

robban75
05-07-2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
How about the 109K climb rate?

Robban...Do you think it's right?

Not really. The K-4 should be a great climber. I must say however that I'm no expert on the Bf 109 series. I have read that the K-4 could reach 6000m in 4min and 30sec.

The K-4 in-game reaches 6000m in 3:46, and 7000m in 4:37.

carguy_
05-07-2005, 10:52 AM
You mean with MW50 on.Don`t forget adding this next time.

Tachyon1000
05-07-2005, 11:15 AM
I actually find the 109 to be a diffcult plane to fly relative to most of the others I have flown in this game. I know of none of these supposed exploits or cheats and I would never use them if I did know of them. The 109 has none of the shear fire spray as the 190 or any of the Allied planes that use a series of .55 guns. The 109's manueverability is less than its mythic adversary, the spit. It seems to have no speed advantage, no climb advantage, no stall advantage, etc, etc. And it smokes and oil splatters at the drop of a hat. Recently after having flown the 109 almost exclusively since I started playing the game, I started flying Allied planes and have had much more success in them than any I had in the 109. I would say in my limited experience that the Allied planes are consistently more deadly in their fire power and more manueverable than their Axis counterparts.

Flying German in this game has been tough and I frankly am concerned at the prospect of flying German in BOB with essentially 10 mins of combat time due to the limited fuel supply of the 109. So I can't say that I would agree with the original poster to any degree if his claim is that the 109 pilot has some sort of advantage in this game as I certainly have not experienced it.

faustnik
05-07-2005, 11:17 AM
Flying LW in many years IS EASY. It is difficult in the very late years. The sim is not weighted against the LW.

Cajun76
05-07-2005, 11:22 AM
With all those "benefits", I feel a lot better about shooting them down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Like any a/c, you have to know what you're doing to get the most out of it, whether it's a Fw, Spit, 109, Yak or Forty-Seven. I think the high speed vertical climb is a bit overdone, but I think that has more to do with game/sim engine limitations.

The Mk 108 dosen't seem to arc near as much as, say, the 37mm M4, even though the M4 has a slightly higher muzzle velocity. Otherwise, it seems ok, and is a handful in the right hands. So is any plane, for that matter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

crazyivan1970
05-07-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
How about the 109K climb rate?

Robban...Do you think it's right?

Not really. The K-4 should be a great climber. I must say however that I'm no expert on the Bf 109 series. I have read that the K-4 could reach 6000m in 4min and 30sec.

The K-4 in-game reaches 6000m in 3:46, and 7000m in 4:37. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not with 100% fuel load mate

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
With all those "benefits", I feel a lot better about shooting them down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Like any a/c, you have to know what you're doing to get the most out of it, whether it's a Fw, Spit, 109, Yak or Forty-Seven. I think the high speed vertical climb is a bit overdone, but I think that has more to do with game/sim engine limitations.

The Mk 108 dosen't seem to arc near as much as, say, the 37mm M4, even though the M4 has a slightly higher muzzle velocity. Otherwise, it seems ok, and is a handful in the right hands. So is any plane, for that matter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

yep its hard to hit with the russian big guns http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
mk108 is way easy in compairson

k4, and other late series 109s stall out at a way too low speed, 20-30more than a zero... zero has half the wing loading nearly.

they dont drop speed so fast now, 190 can tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

less knifeedge on stall than most planes

prop pitch, yep http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

alirons are too effective at speed, should stiffen up similer to spitfire...

overmodeled mk108 (oleg said that)

iirec k4 ingame climbs at 30metres a sec upto 5-6000metres, with manual u maybe able to touch 35ms

Atomic_Marten
05-07-2005, 12:08 PM
I don't know why is this on ORR.

But anyway, I would like to know what do Ace thinks of FW190 when he regards Bf109 as noob plane.

SeaNorris
05-07-2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
Hayate's WhineMode is definitely overmodelled. And onesided http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

robban75
05-07-2005, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Not with 100% fuel load mate

I'm afraid so.

Time to alt and m/sec.

1000 - :37 - 27.0
2000 - 1:12 - 28.6
3000 - 1:47 - 28.6
4000 - 2:23 - 27.8
5000 - 3:01 - 26.3
6000 - 3:45 - 22.7
7000 - 4:39 - 18.5

And here it is with 25% fuel

1000 - :34 - 29.4
2000 - 1:05 - 32.3
3000 - 1:37 - 31.3
4000 - 2:10 - 30.3
5000 - 2:43 - 30.3
6000 - 3:22 - 25.6
7000 - 4:10 - 20.8

It's a rocket man! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BigKahuna_GS
05-07-2005, 12:43 PM
p1ngu666
yep its hard to hit with the russian big guns
mk108 is way easy in compairson
k4, and other late series 109s stall out at a way too low speed, 20-30more than a zero... zero has half the wing loading nearly.
they dont drop speed so fast now, 190 can tho
less knifeedge on stall than most planes
prop pitch, yep
alirons are too effective at speed, should stiffen up similer to spitfire...
overmodeled mk108 (oleg said that)
iirec k4 ingame climbs at 30metres a sec upto 5-6000metres, with manual u maybe able to touch 35ms



Good points Pling


--

JG52Karaya-X
05-07-2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by HayateHater:
Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c

That's something the 109 was well known for... go read a book

For the other stuff: got proof or is that a "feeling" of yours? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

MEGILE
05-07-2005, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Not with 100% fuel load mate

I'm afraid so.

Time to alt and m/sec.

1000 - :37 - 27.0
2000 - 1:12 - 28.6
3000 - 1:47 - 28.6
4000 - 2:23 - 27.8
5000 - 3:01 - 26.3
6000 - 3:45 - 22.7
7000 - 4:39 - 18.5

And here it is with 25% fuel

1000 - :34 - 29.4
2000 - 1:05 - 32.3
3000 - 1:37 - 31.3
4000 - 2:10 - 30.3
5000 - 2:43 - 30.3
6000 - 3:22 - 25.6
7000 - 4:10 - 20.8

It's a rocket man! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your input as always is appreciated Robban.
Quick question, was that using Manual pitch or Autmotaic?
If it was on Auto, I wonder what it could do on manual http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Ok BF-109K4 lovers, the info is there... make tracks and send them off to oleg to get your favourite ride fixed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HayateAce, I know you strive for realism in this game.. but why do you never mention the Spitfire's energy retention problem, or the Focke Wulf's fuel leak of death?

JG52Karaya-X
05-07-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
overmodeled mk108 (oleg said that)

How's that? The Mk108 fires like a shot-gun; unless you start shooting at closer than 100m you will hardly hit anything (maybe some lucky hits on the 4-engine heavies).
Dealt-out damage seems okay to me...(B17/24/25/29 can take excessive amounts of 30mm though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif)

robban75
05-07-2005, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Your input as always is appreciated Robban.
Quick question, was that using Manual pitch or Autmotaic?
If it was on Auto, I wonder what it could do on manual http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif



Thanks Megile! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I used auto prop pitch for this test.

MEGILE
05-07-2005, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by robban75:


I used auto prop pitch for this test.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

IVJG51_Swine
05-07-2005, 01:12 PM
I buy some of this but definitely not the MK108 being overmodeled. That was a lethal weapon capable of destroying an enemy aircraft with one round. Read the War Diary of Helmet Lipfert. That's probably the most vivid account of a 109 pilot's experience on the Eastern Front. He wrote it right after the War ended when he was in a prisoner of war camp. In regards to accurancy I would beg to differ and would definitely say it's no where near as accurate as the LA-7s cannons.

Also, I don't see anywhere in your post about the 109 elevator response issue. This thread seems totally one sided to me.

Finkeren
05-07-2005, 01:32 PM
As far goes the behavior of the guns I micht agree somewhat with Hayatehater, else this is a big load of horse droppings!

VW-IceFire
05-07-2005, 01:34 PM
Good lord...lets just ignore HayateAce. Its obvious he's never flown the plane in question. The 109 actually is sort of a lame duck to me...the F-2 and F-4 are the only two that I feel confident in. I know there are guys who are good at them...I've been shot down by those guys, but I can't replicate what they do. They know their plane.

The elevator is rediculously stiff at high speeds which makes it a bad plane for me...I like the P-51 and FW190 for the elevator response at high speed. The MK108 is difficult to aim except when you have 3 of them...and thats a bit overkill. But it works when you hit...I actually prefer to use the 37mm on P-63 or Yak-9T. Anyways, pure fiction.

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 02:11 PM
hm, looks like ill haveto teach u what i know of howto fly 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Blackdog5555
05-07-2005, 02:21 PM
Yes , the 109 "Fred Flinstone" instant brake is bizarre. I think the only plane that "Cant" do a no torque sliding stall/turn/brake is the P38!!!!....LOL

Atomic_Marten
05-07-2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
overmodeled mk108 (oleg said that)

How's that? The Mk108 fires like a shot-gun; unless you start shooting at closer than 100m you will hardly hit anything (maybe some lucky hits on the 4-engine heavies).
Dealt-out damage seems okay to me...(B17/24/25/29 can take excessive amounts of 30mm though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you basically said is that there is hard to use MK108 on .10k> distances. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I strongly do not agree. I can (and I am) regularly shot down aircraft from 400-500m with MK108.

Both with wing mounted in FW190 and nose mounted in Bf109.

However I don't know if you mean in real world or IL-2. In IL-2 they are fairly easy to use, IMO by far easiest to use of all 30mm cannons in game.(compared to M4 and even NS).

Cajun76
05-07-2005, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by IVJG51_Swine:
I buy some of this but definitely not the MK108 being overmodeled. That was a lethal weapon capable of destroying an enemy aircraft with one round. Read the War Diary of Helmet Lipfert. That's probably the most vivid account of a 109 pilot's experience on the Eastern Front. He wrote it right after the War ended when he was in a prisoner of war camp. In regards to accurancy I would beg to differ and would definitely say it's no where near as accurate as the LA-7s cannons.

Also, I don't see anywhere in your post about the 109 elevator response issue. This thread seems totally one sided to me.

Not saying so much about destructive power. Your also comparing (probably) the 3 B-20 20mm cannons of the La-7 to a 30mm grenade launcher. B-20 was an excellent gun with great ballistics. The Mk108 has slightly lower muzzle velocity than the 37mm on the P-39Q and P-63, but has much higher ROF. If you've ever fired the 37mm, much more arc and the round takes a while to get there. The Mk 108 should share similar ballistics.

And 109 elevators? Every plane in the game loses elevator effectiveness at higher and higher speeds. A Yak or P-40 (rated for 500mph (800kph) dives) can suprise you and make you worm food if you get too fast in a dive. Why would the 109 be exempt from aerodynamics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Because Isegrim says so? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GT182
05-07-2005, 06:30 PM
I've found just the opposite HayateAce. The 109s stalls very easy. More so with fuel load anywhere above 2/3rds. She also spins very well carrying externals, flatspins included. How do you think I got the name vonSpinmeister from the guys I fly with? I can spin a 109, any model, at the drop of a hat, anytime, anywhere. I've died online more from spins than being shot down. And that's a fact.

If you can't spin a 109, then you aren't being chased very well and can keep you airspeed above 300kph all the time.

Hoarmurath
05-07-2005, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:

And 109 elevators? Every plane in the game loses elevator effectiveness at higher and higher speeds. A Yak or P-40 (rated for 500mph (800kph) dives) can suprise you and make you worm food if you get too fast in a dive. Why would the 109 be exempt from aerodynamics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Because Isegrim says so? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Most laughable assessment i have read in a while. The only plane i know with worst elevator authority at high speed than 109 is the P38.

Buzzsaw-
05-07-2005, 09:04 PM
Salute

Some of HayateAce's points are relevant.

However, the manner of his presentation, ie. zero new data, and obvious lack of objectivity does not advance the cause of a better FM.

In my OPINION, and I also am not presenting data at this point, although I do have material that is relevant, the following issues are of a concern with the FM:

1) Most aircraft have lower than historical zero throttle stall speeds. The G and later 109's, and likely the La-5's and 7's, (still trying to get a translation of the LA-5 and LA-5FN manuals) are particularly bad offenders. The Spitfire IX also stalls at too low a speed. This contributes to the "UFO" type behaviour we sometimes see.

2) The terminal dive speeds of most aircraft are too high. The Spitfire and 109's are particular offenders with the 109K4 diving and recovering successfully at speeds close to 100kph faster than historically reccommended.

3) Rollrates of most aircraft are too high.

Because we have a new FM coming out very soon, which may address some of these concerns, particularly rollrate, it may be best to just leave the comments till after its release.

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:

And 109 elevators? Every plane in the game loses elevator effectiveness at higher and higher speeds. A Yak or P-40 (rated for 500mph (800kph) dives) can suprise you and make you worm food if you get too fast in a dive. Why would the 109 be exempt from aerodynamics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Because Isegrim says so? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Most laughable assessment i have read in a while. The only plane i know with worst elevator authority at high speed than 109 is the P38. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yaks, migs, laggs too probably are all worse.
imo 109 is the most formidable plane (prop) in the game, excluding i185 m72.

tbh 109 doesnt need its overmodeled climb, bogus stall speed, light alirons tobe formidable.

it does require some skill, 109 is probably where u will benifit most from being experten. but u can teach someone to fly 109 effectivly in 5-30mins depending of things

Cajun76
05-07-2005, 09:45 PM
You don't get out much, do ya Hoarmurath? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Try flying some of those at high speed, you'd be suprised. And the 109 is not near what the P-38 is....

faustnik
05-07-2005, 10:40 PM
P-38 high speed elevator lockup is brutal. It happens so **** fast too, compression is on you before you know it. Bf109 elevator sucks but, it beats the heck out of the P-38. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

JG52Karaya-X
05-08-2005, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
but u can teach someone to fly 109 effectivly in 5-30mins depending of things

The same could be said about any of the Spit or La5/7 versions...

Hoarmurath
05-08-2005, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
You don't get out much, do ya Hoarmurath? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Try flying some of those at high speed, you'd be suprised. And the 109 is not near what the P-38 is....

I did... At 600 kph the Yak3 stay maneuverable and easy to fly. At same speed, the Bf109K begin to enter "lawn dart" mode. Not as bad as P38, but still one of the worst elevator response of the game at the moment. The only plane i know to have such a bad elevator at such speed is the LA7. Both LA7 and Bf109 have the dubious privilege of being both high performance planes with crappy elevator once you reach 600 kph.

You should know me better, i always try before i make an assumption. At some point, can't remember the patch number, the Bf109 elevator lost all authority at high speed, 600 kph and above. This is still the case with 3.04m, i just tried again.

So, what about you doing some testing before you speak about something you obviously don't know?

And as i said, yes, P38 has worst elevator problems, i know it thanks, it is the plane i fly the most often. But once you eliminate P38, Bf109 become a good candidate for worst elevator authority of the game.

JG52Karaya-X
05-08-2005, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
What you basically said is that there is hard to use MK108 on .10k> distances. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I strongly do not agree. I can (and I am) regularly shot down aircraft from 400-500m with MK108.

Yes, it is possible... if your opponent is half-asleep. But the shells need quite some time to get to a target that's 400-500m away that any half-way decent pilot can jink it with ease.

Btw, you can't really compare the Mk108 with the 37mm M4 or NS-37... The Mk108 was designed as a weapon for aircombat (against whatever foe there might be) whereas the M4 and NS-37 were actually designed for A2G purpose (CAS)

Also check this page out:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Here it says:
Gunpower Mk108 - 580
M4 - 160
NS-37 - 424

Kwiatos
05-08-2005, 03:09 AM
What about Mig 3 which have very weak elevator at high speed much worse than bf 109. As i read Mig 3 was high alt interceptor with good high speed handling and with bad slow speed behaviour.

Skalgrim
05-08-2005, 03:32 AM
plane like 109 or p38 that has trouble with 500-600km/h ias with theirs rudder, have at high altitude that problem not, because high altitude fly you rare 500-600km/h ias same count too for aileron

is depent from ias and not tas

Ugly_Kid
05-08-2005, 05:41 AM
There was a time when almost every discussion in ORR contained information and was worth reading. Nowadays even reading the titles is waste of time.

Hetzer_II
05-08-2005, 07:13 AM
simple rule: never read anything from the hayate-Looser

GonzoX
05-08-2005, 07:40 AM
109 is an Uber plane? Really?

If that's so then why are all the nubes flying Spitfires?

Don't see the noobs flying the 109. Can you guess why?

p1ngu666
05-08-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Skalgrim:
plane like 109 or p38 that has trouble with 500-600km/h ias with theirs rudder, have at high altitude that problem not, because high altitude fly you rare 500-600km/h ias same count too for aileron

is depent from ias and not tas

some work from tas now, some dont, its rather odd
zero works from tas i think,so you either struggle with stiff controls, or your on point of stall http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

p1ngu666
05-08-2005, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by GonzoX:
109 is an Uber plane? Really?

If that's so then why are all the nubes flying Spitfires?

Don't see the noobs flying the 109. Can you guess why?

its also taken them along to mostly not pick HF, most fly the Ix which is outperformed by VIII
theres also a fair number of g6as and k4's about...

p1ngu666
05-08-2005, 08:25 AM
also, irl spit was easy to fly, real big advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG52Karaya-X
05-08-2005, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
also, irl spit was easy to fly, real big advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That's what most Experten would also tell you when asked about the Bf109...

Günther Rall once said: "The 109? Fits like a glove"

Anyway there are lots of planes that can be described as "easy to fly" (both in game AND IRL)
Zero, Spit, Hurricane, Bf109, FW190, P51, Ki84, Ki61, list goes on...
That doesn't say ANYTHING about its combat suitability though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

robban75
05-08-2005, 09:02 AM
If pilot fatigue was modelled, very few planes would shine the way they do online. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LBR_Rommel
05-08-2005, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by GonzoX:
109 is an Uber plane? Really?

If that's so then why are all the nubes flying Spitfires?

Don't see the noobs flying the 109. Can you guess why?

S!

No no no, my friend, 109 is a UBER plane, but only for worst players on the planet, ppl come around whinnig about their red planes, btw all easy to fly and manouver, and then, when they get their NOOB BEHIND shot by 109, they come here to cry their lack of hability to fly.

Btw what most of the 109 have is UBER pilots and the 20mm or 30mm its a JOKE.

LEARN TO FLY NOOBS.

<O|

Cajun76
05-08-2005, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
What you basically said is that there is hard to use MK108 on .10k> distances. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I strongly do not agree. I can (and I am) regularly shot down aircraft from 400-500m with MK108.

Yes, it is possible... if your opponent is half-asleep. But the shells need quite some time to get to a target that's 400-500m away that any half-way decent pilot can jink it with ease.

Btw, you can't really compare the Mk108 with the 37mm M4 or NS-37... The Mk108 was designed as a weapon for aircombat (against whatever foe there might be) whereas the M4 and NS-37 were actually designed for A2G purpose (CAS)

Also check this page out:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Here it says:
Gunpower Mk108 - 580
M4 - 160
NS-37 - 424 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

The thing is, the M4 and the Mk-108 have similar muzzle velocity, so they would have similar ballistics. Speaking for myself, I'm not talking about destructive power here. The 108 is a low velocity grenade launcher, with a high ROF. The M4 has low velocity and low ROF. The NS-37 has a higher ROF than the M4 but also has a very high muzzle velocity.

Cajun76
05-08-2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
You don't get out much, do ya Hoarmurath? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Try flying some of those at high speed, you'd be suprised. And the 109 is not near what the P-38 is....

I did... At 600 kph the Yak3 stay maneuverable and easy to fly. At same speed, the Bf109K begin to enter "lawn dart" mode. Not as bad as P38, but still one of the worst elevator response of the game at the moment. The only plane i know to have such a bad elevator at such speed is the LA7. Both LA7 and Bf109 have the dubious privilege of being both high performance planes with crappy elevator once you reach 600 kph.

You should know me better, i always try before i make an assumption. At some point, can't remember the patch number, the Bf109 elevator lost all authority at high speed, 600 kph and above. This is still the case with 3.04m, i just tried again.

So, what about you doing some testing before you speak about something you obviously don't know?

And as i said, yes, P38 has worst elevator problems, i know it thanks, it is the plane i fly the most often. But once you eliminate P38, Bf109 become a good candidate for worst elevator authority of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I seem to have actually flown the 109, and approached 800km/h without it locking up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Stiff, but not concrete.

My quick impressions, I'm not Robban. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Crimea, 5000m. Full throttle and WEP. Switch to no pit for accurate speed. Let the plane build speed till flying level with no stick input, around 400-475km/h depending on a/c. Roll over, and head down. Try to get the nose vertical at about the time you hit 600 km/h. Pull back rapidly to level. Pullout usually between 700 to 800. 0 is bad, 4 is the best.

Btw, most of these match what I already had a feeling for.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Corsair D = 3
La-7 3x20mm = 2
P-40M = 1
P-39Q-10 = 1
Spit Vb = 2.5
Spit VIII = 2.5
Spit HF IXe = 1.5
P-47D-27 = 2.5
P-51D-20 = 3.5 Severe buffeting
Yak 3P = 1
Zero-21 = 1
Bf-109E = 1
Bf-109F-4 = 1
Bf-109G-2 = 1.5
Bf-109G-6A/S = 1.5
Bf-109K-4 = 1
Bf-110G-2 = 1
P-38L = 0 Never recovered
P-38J = 0 Never recovered
Fw-190A-4 = 3.5 Severe buffeting
Fw-190A-6 = 3.5 Severe buffeting
Fw-190A-9 = 3.5 Buffeting
Fw-190D-9 = 3.5 Severe buffeting
Ta-152 = 3.5 Buffeting
Go-229 = 4 Only one to rate a 4, excellent.
He-162 = 2.5
Ki-43-1a = 2 Biggest suprise, the rest were about what I expected.
Ki-84-1a = 3
Me-262 = 2
</pre>

Edit: Btw, I should have been more clear. The buffeting is not due to excessive speed, it is from the rapid pullout, introduced by the "aerodynamic" forces shaking the a/c during hard maneuvering

These are quick impressions, so more testing may reveal a finer level of detail, but most of these seem spot on. The K4 wasn't the worst excluding the P-38, it justs builds speed so much faster than some others that you lose more alt. It never became ineffective, though.

JG52Karaya-X
05-08-2005, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
It never became ineffective, though.

And it shouldn't...

Nice test btw! Thank you

BigKahuna_GS
05-08-2005, 11:07 AM
S!

________________________________________________
JG52Karaya-X posted Sun May 08 2005 07:56
quote:Originally posted by p1ngu666:
also, irl spit was easy to fly, real big advantage

That's what most Experten would also tell you when asked about the Bf109...

Günther Rall once said: "The 109? Fits like a glove"
_______________________________________________



Which model of 109 ?

Rall's favorite 109 model was the 109F. Rall also felt that later 109 models were starting to get overloaded and too heavy.


http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-GuntherRallEnglish.html

And when Crete was finished we went back to Romania, and there we got a new airplane. It was the 109 F. This was my beloved aircraft. It was the first aircraft with the round wing tips, no struts in the back, 605 engine (ed. DB 601), excellent, and not too overloaded. You know, later on they put in this, and put in this, and put in this. The aircraft became heavier, but not this one. (Think of the G10-thru to K4)
The F was my ideal aircraft.

Rall also said that he felt the late model 109s had too much wingloading and needed a larger wing "like the Spitfire". Not the same Spitfire eliptical shape wing, just more surface area to reduce wingloading.

Stienhoff- "We called the late model 109s "Humps & Bumps". Paraphrased--he said "everytime you go to get into the 109 they hang something new on it the orignal airframe never had causing a new hump or bump".

_______


__________________________________________________ ______________________

plane like 109 or p38 that has trouble with 500-600km/h ias with theirs rudder, have at high altitude that problem not, because high altitude fly you rare 500-600km/h ias same count too for aileron
is depent from ias and not tas
__________________________________________________ ______________________




This where compressibility should be--at high alitudes during very fast manuevers. If you read combat reports from pilots that entered compressibilty they were usually able to pull out before 10,000ft after a high altitude dive. Compressibilty should be much harder to reach at lower altitudes where the air is thick and warmer.


__

Jaws2002
05-08-2005, 11:12 AM
Can we please add some "IGNORE" option to this forum.
there are some guys here that are just wasting webspace and our time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Hoarmurath
05-08-2005, 11:13 AM
Just to remind you what made me intervene in this thread :


Originally posted by Cajun76:

And 109 elevators? Every plane in the game loses elevator effectiveness at higher and higher speeds. A Yak or P-40 (rated for 500mph (800kph) dives) can suprise you and make you worm food if you get too fast in a dive. Why would the 109 be exempt from aerodynamics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Because Isegrim says so? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Your own testing contradict what you were saying then. Next time, i suggest you test first.

LeadSpitter_
05-08-2005, 11:35 AM
Hayates correct no other plane can go from 800+ kmH to 120 in a barrel roll trottling back then put trottle up to full at be at 580 in a dive in 2-3 seconds.

stops faster then ac with dive brakes. The 108 without a doubt is much to accurate you guys know this and its the second top dogfighting against fighters weapon in game.

we should eliminate all british russian and american planes and just fly german vs german planesets.

As for the 109 being able to have forward stick pressure advantage its called the battle of britian when spitmk1 and hurricane had negative g cutout.

109 is just as much a ufo as the spitfire except with better firepower, lower stall speed, faster roll, better highspeed elevator, higher dive speed before breakup and oh yeah its instant trottleback skycaptain reverse boosters, then sonic boom trottle forward pulse jet accelaration.

carguy_
05-08-2005, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Hayates correct no other plane can go from 800+ kmH to 120 in a barrel roll trottling back then put trottle up to full at be at 580 in a dive in 2-3 seconds.

stops faster then ac with dive brakes. The 108 without a doubt is much to accurate you guys know this and its the second top dogfighting against fighters weapon in game.

we should eliminate all british russian and american planes and just fly german vs german planesets.

As for the 109 being able to have forward stick pressure advantage its called the battle of britian when spitmk1 and hurricane had negative g cutout.

109 is just as much a ufo as the spitfire except with better firepower, lower stall speed, faster roll, better highspeed elevator, higher dive speed before breakup and oh yeah its instant trottleback skycaptain reverse boosters, then sonic boom trottle forward pulse jet accelaration.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

LeadSpitter_
05-08-2005, 11:49 AM
you know it carguy lol btw the emils porked since 120mix was takken away http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif same with all the planes that use to have 120-100 auto rich auto lean.

p1ngu666
05-08-2005, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
also, irl spit was easy to fly, real big advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That's what most Experten would also tell you when asked about the Bf109...

Günther Rall once said: "The 109? Fits like a glove"

Anyway there are lots of planes that can be described as "easy to fly" (both in game AND IRL)
Zero, Spit, Hurricane, Bf109, FW190, P51, Ki84, Ki61, list goes on...
That doesn't say ANYTHING about its combat suitability though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

109 fits like a glove because the cockpit is small, and u have the cannon between your legs

ive misplaced my spitfire aces book, but some german ace tested a captured spitfire with a 2 pitch propeller, thought it was really good, apart from pitch and neg g. he said something like spit was laughably easier to land than there 109s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rommel, id say p38 and b25, p47,p39 are pretty hard to fly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Abbuzze
05-08-2005, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Hayates correct no other plane can go from 800+ kmH to 120 in a barrel roll trottling back then put trottle up to full at be at 580 in a dive in 2-3 seconds.

stops faster then ac with dive brakes. The 108 without a doubt is much to accurate you guys know this and its the second top dogfighting against fighters weapon in game.

we should eliminate all british russian and american planes and just fly german vs german planesets.

As for the 109 being able to have forward stick pressure advantage its called the battle of britian when spitmk1 and hurricane had negative g cutout.

109 is just as much a ufo as the spitfire except with better firepower, lower stall speed, faster roll, better highspeed elevator, higher dive speed before breakup and oh yeah its instant trottleback skycaptain reverse boosters, then sonic boom trottle forward pulse jet accelaration.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Leadspitter I like your humour!

Hmm I usually fly 109´s my favorite is G6L with 20mm vs Spits, cause I like the challenge...

But it seems that I have to learn a lot to fly the 109 like you do... what about to stop at this point till we get some trk´s from you so we can all see this œber-109´s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Would realy like see a 109 G6 moving in the way you describe...

LeadSpitter_
05-08-2005, 12:18 PM
becuase when i post tracks no one responds back http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just like the people saying it takes 50 shots to kill a p47 online.

Then i show the online track ripping off 8 p-47s tails, with single shot 20mm and arcade mode on or explodinging them with 4-6 shots kill engine in one burst of 7.92 at .20 distance.

Dont get me wrong online when someone has a 300-400 ping or if i have over 70-150 ping in some overseas servers weapons seem half as weak from lag.

ask anyone who is good in the 109 about the trottle back airbrake we all do it

lixma
udet
pegasus and many others.

Im sure you do it as well along with the auto/manual tapping

JG52Karaya-X
05-08-2005, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
109 is just as much a ufo as the spitfire except with better firepower

Maybe higher firepower but those twin Hispano lasers are a hell of a lot easier to get into target - and they do hurt


lower stall speed

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


faster roll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


better highspeed elevator

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


higher dive speed before breakup

If you're talking Bf109G6AS/10/K4 vs SpitIX then I dont see a problem there. Anyway you'll be getting your SpitXIV - be merry.


and oh yeah its instant trottleback skycaptain reverse boosters
Ever tried to throttle back to 0% and set prop-pitch to 0% too in a CSP plane such as Yaks, Las, P51/47/38/39/40, etc.? You're gonna like it!

Abbuzze
05-08-2005, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
becuase when i post tracks no one responds back http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just like the people saying it takes 50 shots to kill a p47 online.

Then i show the online track ripping off 8 p-47s tails, with single shot 20mm and arcade mode on or explodinging them with 4-6 shots kill engine in one burst of 7.92 at .20 distance.

Dont get me wrong online when someone has a 300-400 ping or if i have over 70-150 ping in some overseas servers weapons seem half as weak from lag.

ask anyone who is good in the 109 about the trottle back airbrake we all do it

lixma
udet
pegasus and many others.

Im sure you do it as well along with the auto/manual tapping

No, I don´t switch between the Proppitchmodes, except for landing where I use 11.30 postion(85%) to get a three point landing. I think this "features" are silly, I get enough spits in my G6 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And also Ponydriver that get low and slow...

Ok, no tracks, but is it ok if I say that you exaggerate a "little" when you "describe" the 109 FM? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Every plane has some Problems with the limitation of the engine. 109 drivers are not complaining about the heater/radiator anymore, it just make you laughing a bit when you fly a P51/47 or much more a Spit.

When you talking about fast breaks and fast acceleration in the 109 you mean of course the late ones I think. G6´s just can break (not the silly AS), not accelerate, cause they simply don´t have the HP to do this!

And late 109s - they should accelerate fast, cause of the good HP/weight ratio, so in levelflight they should be faster as an P51/47 I assume.
About the non-optimal diving FM for all planes it is a different story. No doubt.

The cutting a plane into half with a 20mm - It´s similar to the 0.50 problem. You have to hit first, lot of people that are crying about this, simply shooting wholes in the air... this will make no planes crash http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Beside there is a small failure in your posting, there is no arcade mode in onlinegaming or do you have a tool for this?
I just count the funny smokeballs made by a 20mm thats enough. Sometimes you put 5 in a row into a wing without any damadge, the next time it simply rip of by a much shorter burst. Same for 0.50.

JG52Karaya-X
05-08-2005, 02:32 PM
Abbuzze ich glaub man kann .ntrks im Nachhinein im Arcademode anschauen... das meinte er wohl

bin mir aber ned sicher http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
05-08-2005, 02:34 PM
Try ful real settings nex time, not arcade mode!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Hayates correct no other plane can go from 800+ kmH to 120 in a barrel roll trottling back then put trottle up to full at be at 580 in a dive in 2-3 seconds.

stops faster then ac with dive brakes. The 108 without a doubt is much to accurate you guys know this and its the second top dogfighting against fighters weapon in game.

we should eliminate all british russian and american planes and just fly german vs german planesets.

As for the 109 being able to have forward stick pressure advantage its called the battle of britian when spitmk1 and hurricane had negative g cutout.

109 is just as much a ufo as the spitfire except with better firepower, lower stall speed, faster roll, better highspeed elevator, higher dive speed before breakup and oh yeah its instant trottleback skycaptain reverse boosters, then sonic boom trottle forward pulse jet accelaration.

Cajun76
05-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
Just to remind you what made me intervene in this thread :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:

And 109 elevators? Every plane in the game loses elevator effectiveness at higher and higher speeds. A Yak or P-40 (rated for 500mph (800kph) dives) can suprise you and make you worm food if you get too fast in a dive. Why would the 109 be exempt from aerodynamics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Because Isegrim says so? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Your own testing contradict what you were saying then. Next time, i suggest you test first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Please explain.

The Yak ans P-40 did poorly.

The 109 is not exempt from aerodynamics, no matter how much Isegrim wishes it. It shouldn't have the same turn rate as the Fw's or Mustang.

And as far as Every plane in the game loses elevator effectiveness at higher and higher speeds., did you consider that I didn't reach those speeds in certain a/c? The current test is not adeuquete to show this. Perhaps a pullout at 700 would better demonstrate this.

Btw, I should have been more clear. The buffeting is not due to excessive speed, it is from the rapid pullout, introduced by the "aerodynamic" forces shaking the a/c during hard maneuvering.

You're going to have to be more specific on where I condradicted myself. Perhaps it was
the ......


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

F19_Ob
05-08-2005, 03:34 PM
Hello lads.
What do you think about this then?

I saw an old interview with Mark and Ray Hanna, and both claimed the spitfire (they had one) very capable in slow speeds and no problem with stalling since the plane shook so violently before stall wich gave the pilot enough time and warning.

The 109 on the other hand went into a stall without warning although it was gentler and the pilot could recover faster.
I cant produce a source at the moment to the 109 but I have read a lot about it and come across this several times during the years.

Mark Hanna thought a battle between the 109 (he flew a spanish 109 Buchon) and the spit would be very close and a lot would depend on the pilot but he thought the spit would have the edge in slow speed although he thought the 109 was very capable in slow speeds aswell.

-------------------------------

I ofcourse cant say how it's supposed to be but it seems the 109 in the game buffets violently before stall and the spit doesn't.

well something I've been thinking about for a while.

What say U?

Abbuzze
05-08-2005, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Hello lads.
What do you think about this then?

I saw an old interview with Mark and Ray Hanna, and both claimed the spitfire (they had one) very capable in slow speeds and no problem with stalling since the plane shook so violently before stall wich gave the pilot enough time and warning.

The 109 on the other hand went into a stall without warning although it was gentler and the pilot could recover faster.
I cant produce a source at the moment to the 109 but I have read a lot about it and come across this several times during the years.

Mark Hanna thought a battle between the 109 (he flew a spanish 109 Buchon) and the spit would be very close and a lot would depend on the pilot but he thought the spit would have the edge in slow speed although he thought the 109 was very capable in slow speeds aswell.

-------------------------------

I ofcourse cant say how it's supposed to be but it seems the 109 in the game buffets violently before stall and the spit doesn't.

well something I've been thinking about for a while.

What say U?


Hmm I think the opening slats are a very good and clear stallwarning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
05-08-2005, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Hello lads.
What do you think about this then?

I saw an old interview with Mark and Ray Hanna, and both claimed the spitfire (they had one) very capable in slow speeds and no problem with stalling since the plane shook so violently before stall wich gave the pilot enough time and warning.

The 109 on the other hand went into a stall without warning although it was gentler and the pilot could recover faster.
I cant produce a source at the moment to the 109 but I have read a lot about it and come across this several times during the years.

Mark Hanna thought a battle between the 109 (he flew a spanish 109 Buchon) and the spit would be very close and a lot would depend on the pilot but he thought the spit would have the edge in slow speed although he thought the 109 was very capable in slow speeds aswell.

-------------------------------

I ofcourse cant say how it's supposed to be but it seems the 109 in the game buffets violently before stall and the spit doesn't.

well something I've been thinking about for a while.

What say U?


Hmm I think the opening slats are a very good and clear stallwarning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

think the email was pretty harsh on the stall, scary even for new pilots, F series maybe better cos of rounded wingtips, they tend to help handling

Buzzsaw-
05-08-2005, 06:40 PM
Salute

For those who are denigrating Leadspitter's flying abilities, I would suggest going on the WarClouds server and seeing how well he flys and how many aircraft he shoots down.

He was flying a 109G last night, and got 1200 pts in one sortie.

If you met up with him, you'd probably find yourself dead pretty quick.

faustnik
05-08-2005, 08:15 PM
The amazing thing is that Leadspitter gets all those kills while typing out whines the entire time. He can kill with one hand and type with the other. No joke, it's pretty amazing.

Hetzer_II
05-08-2005, 11:35 PM
http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=3923

dont looks very impressive ;-)

Look here ;-)

http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=765

sry.. couldnt resist..

Greets Lead..

Raptor_20thFG
05-09-2005, 01:27 AM
why does it have to be a spitfire noob norris I fly a Spit sometimes and I am Not a Noob



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Abbuzze
05-09-2005, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abbuzze:


Hmm I think the opening slats are a very good and clear stallwarning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

think the email was pretty harsh on the stall, scary even for new pilots, F series maybe better cos of rounded wingtips, they tend to help handling </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I remember correct the 109 didn´t show a lot of prestall buffeting, but it started to shake before the stall accure, F-wings was realy better than the Emil wings, but even they where far away from being bad.
Emil had longer slats so maybe the "problems", or better the stories with the slats are based upon it, cause reaction when they deployed where maybe stronger.

Lixma
05-09-2005, 01:59 AM
Re: 109 throttle back airbrake.

Doesn't exist.

If you have a 109 in front of you (or any plane) then you are reacting to his actions. If he decides to cut the throttle then there's going to be at least a 1 second delay before you a) realise it b) react to it. Combine the cut throttle with a violent manouver and you're going to overshoot...that's the point. It's nothing specific to 109s. I use the manouver in whatever a/c i'm flying.

Pipper (i think) brought a thread up about this a year or so ago. He and Astro were flying Yak-3s at the time. He made the same argument so I tested it offline. I just flew the Yak in a straight line and cut the throttle and watched the results, then did the same for the 109. There was no discernable difference in deceleration. Try it.

Re: High speed elevator response....you've got to be kidding. I don't use any form of trim adjustments so maybe i'm unaware of it's UFO abilities but using the stock controls the 109 (any model) has the crappiest high speed elevator response in the game. Bar a few other planes...P-38 etc.

Kurfurst__
05-09-2005, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
The 109 is not exempt from aerodynamics, no matter how much Isegrim wishes it. It shouldn't have the same turn rate as the Fw's or Mustang.

Why, because Cajun76 says so? Please explain why the 109 cant have the same turn rate as the Fw's or Mustang... especially the latter, the 190 I believe has better high speed elevator response than either the 109/51. It has much lower stickforces.

And where did I said the 109 should be exempt from aerodynamics? Cut the ****.

Diablo310th
05-09-2005, 07:11 AM
with all this info I'm seeing in My Jug I should be able to escape a 109 by diving then pulling up into my zoom quickly. that won't work against teh FW however due to teh fact it pulls up quicker than my Jug. From everything i have evr heard or read teh Jug should pull up very quickly. How accurate compared to RL is teh elevator response on teh Jug compaired to the FW?

Diablo310th
05-09-2005, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Hayates correct no other plane can go from 800+ kmH to 120 in a barrel roll trottling back then put trottle up to full at be at 580 in a dive in 2-3 seconds.

stops faster then ac with dive brakes. The 108 without a doubt is much to accurate you guys know this and its the second top dogfighting against fighters weapon in game.

we should eliminate all british russian and american planes and just fly german vs german planesets.

As for the 109 being able to have forward stick pressure advantage its called the battle of britian when spitmk1 and hurricane had negative g cutout.

109 is just as much a ufo as the spitfire except with better firepower, lower stall speed, faster roll, better highspeed elevator, higher dive speed before breakup and oh yeah its instant trottleback skycaptain reverse boosters, then sonic boom trottle forward pulse jet accelaration.

I have to admit I agree with LS about teh "bat turns" I've watched 109's do it while watching in the mirror of my Jug. I've done a ho with a 109 and watched it turn and then catch my Jug and fire in a matter of seconds. Is it wrong?? I have no idea but I've seen it too many times to not be true. Ki 84's can do it too.

USAF_pilot
05-09-2005, 08:00 AM
Dont worry all the whiners are noobs who got their asses hauled to them by good 109 pilots.I fly allied exclusively and I find them far more easier to kill LW planes.P47 is ultimate bnz plane along with P51.This is an international forum and the game was designed to be REALSTIC not some kind of an American propganda tool where P51's outurn zeros.It aint happening here so all the whiners complain.Learn to adapt.

Diablo sorry mate you obviously know little about the P47's capabilities.Now why the hell are you turning with a 109?The Jug sucked in turning at low alt against the 109.Now if you like a noob turn dont come here crying and whining how my P47 is noobered and undermodelled and German planes are overmodelled.

Cajun76
05-09-2005, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
The 109 is not exempt from aerodynamics, no matter how much Isegrim wishes it. It shouldn't have the same turn rate as the Fw's or Mustang. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why, because Cajun76 says so? Please explain why the 109 cant have the same turn rate as the Fw's or Mustang...

Elementary, dear Kurfurst_, for the same reason Zero's, I-16's and Gadiators have trouble at high speed.

They weren't designed for it.

Take your basic 109F-4, add 22% more weight and 48% more power (being generous here), you get an a/c that can fly faster and climb better, but it increases wingloading by 31% and you want it as good or better manueverability at higher speeds than the F series was designed for...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


And where did I said the 109 should be exempt from aerodynamics? Cut the ****.

Er, I was talking about Isegrim's wishes.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif but as far as me trying to "Cut the ****.", I'm not a mod, and I'm unable to delete some of your posts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzzsaw-
05-09-2005, 09:19 AM
Funny how "USAF_pilot" and his 18 posts in 7 months turns up here to claim how he as an "American" flyer can easily win in his "ultimate" P-47 and that 109's are well modelled... Never seen him on the servers either... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cajun76
05-09-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
with all this info I'm seeing in My Jug I should be able to escape a 109 by diving then pulling up into my zoom quickly. that won't work against teh FW however due to teh fact it pulls up quicker than my Jug. From everything i have evr heard or read teh Jug should pull up very quickly. How accurate compared to RL is teh elevator response on teh Jug compaired to the FW?

The Jug is better than average at 2.5 in my test. Due to the buffeting encountered with the Fw, I would perhaps recommend and sharp pullup combined with a roll. To follow and try to stay ahead, (only natural), he might end up snap stalling. He rolls faster, and has better pullout at these speed ranges (may differ at higher or lower speeds) but the Jug has the advantage of stability. The Jug also won't blackout as fast, while the Fw will be fighting it to try and stay ahead. Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
05-09-2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
I have to admit I agree with LS about teh "bat turns" I've watched 109's do it while watching in the mirror of my Jug. I've done a ho with a 109 and watched it turn and then catch my Jug and fire in a matter of seconds. Is it wrong?? I have no idea but I've seen it too many times to not be true. Ki 84's can do it too.

"The FRANK later appeared in the battle for Okinawa, serving with the 101st, 102nd, and 103rd Hiko Sentais. Two new Sentais, the 111th and the 200th were activated with Hayates. The Hayates were used for long-range penetration missions, fighter sweeps, strafing, interception and dive-bombing missions with considerable success. The Ki-84 proved faster than the P-51D Mustang and the P-47D Thunderbolt at all but the highest altitudes. At medium altitudes, the FRANK was so fast that it was essentially immune from interception. The climb rate was exceptionally good, 16,400 feet being attained in 5 minutes 54 seconds, which was superior to that of any opposing Allied fighters."

Sources:
The Nakajima Ki-84, Rene J. Francillon, Aircraft in Profile, 1969.
Famous Fighters of the Second World War, Second Series, William Green, Doubleday, 1967.
Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1979.
War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, William Green, Doubleday, 1964.



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Diablo310th
05-09-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by USAF_pilot:
Dont worry all the whiners are noobs who got their asses hauled to them by good 109 pilots.I fly allied exclusively and I find them far more easier to kill LW planes.P47 is ultimate bnz plane along with P51.This is an international forum and the game was designed to be REALSTIC not some kind of an American propganda tool where P51's outurn zeros.It aint happening here so all the whiners complain.Learn to adapt.

Diablo sorry mate you obviously know little about the P47's capabilities.Now why the hell are you turning with a 109?The Jug sucked in turning at low alt against the 109.Now if you like a noob turn dont come here crying and whining how my P47 is noobered and undermodelled and German planes are overmodelled.

USAF.....you need to reread my post. I didn't turn with the 109..I saw him turn around on me. I'm no noob in the Jug.

Diablo310th
05-09-2005, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:
with all this info I'm seeing in My Jug I should be able to escape a 109 by diving then pulling up into my zoom quickly. that won't work against teh FW however due to teh fact it pulls up quicker than my Jug. From everything i have evr heard or read teh Jug should pull up very quickly. How accurate compared to RL is teh elevator response on teh Jug compaired to the FW?

The Jug is better than average at 2.5 in my test. Due to the buffeting encountered with the Fw, I would perhaps recommend and sharp pullup combined with a roll. To follow and try to stay ahead, (only natural), he might end up snap stalling. He rolls faster, and has better pullout at these speed ranges (may differ at higher or lower speeds) but the Jug has the advantage of stability. The Jug also won't blackout as fast, while the Fw will be fighting it to try and stay ahead. Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good advice Cajun. I'm always willing to listen to fellow experienced Jug pilots. excluding USAF in his uber P-47. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

bolillo_loco
05-09-2005, 12:15 PM
anybody who thinks that prop pitch is any where near as effective in other planes as it is in the 109 is either in denile, never uses the plane and has limited experience with it, or just doesnt want their exploit taken away.

no other a/c in this game sees a 40-50% increase in performance while using prop pitch like the 109 does. at very low speeds and low altitude it significantly increases your acceleration and climb.

prop pitch imo is a placebo effect in all other a/c except the 109, the D series 190 sees some benifit, but nothing like the 109.

I would agree with most of what the original author stated except that the 108 has been tuned down a bit. I first noticed it in the 1.22 ish patch........I found it much harder to make deflection shots than I did before the patch and it hasnt changed yet.

I believe that the original author forgot to mention the trim exploit......I can snap the wings off a 109 during a high speed pull out when using the trim exploit......which negates any possible escape of an a/c which has better high speed characteristics.

LilHorse
05-09-2005, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
So kwiatos is allowed NO PROOF posting in ORR, with Ivan mod posting directly after.

It is common knowledge 109 is overmodeled and considered widely NOOB. Hopefully new FM fixes joke 109. Now, we will see bias remove this although spit thread allowed 4 pages already.

FB~109:

K4 stall less than F4

Macro Drop All Speed Stop Midair cheat

Stall at 10ft above ground, release stick = auto recover, continue fight

Stall on purpose to evade, NO flat spin, continue fight (would be death, real life)

Prop pitch cheat

High speed aileron too much control

too accurate bomber buster 108 use on fighters

Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c

Now out turn most other planes in game, except obvious krap plane and some Yak. Spit on barely turn better.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

What a huge, whoppin' load of steamin' cr@p!

This guy was either pwned big time by a 109 in whatever his beloved ride is that is always supposed to win or he's fishin' big time.

He obviously doesn't fly the 109 much cause...well you can tell by the post.

Don't know what he flies but I bet it's a Spit.
In the Spit or La-5/7, Yak-3, Ki-84 if you sort of absent-mindedly think about shooting down an e/a while perusing the sports scores in the paper and not touch the controls the baddies fall flaming from the sky. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

There. See we can all indulge in hyperbole if we want.

OldMan____
05-09-2005, 01:06 PM
Our online test team will be testing deacceleration issues in next test set. So we will se if this is true. Also will test Elevator authority.


BTW.. how the hell can anyone say 109 has better high speed elevator than SPIT?

bolillo_loco
05-09-2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Our online test team will be testing deacceleration issues in next test set. So we will se if this is true. Also will test Elevator authority.


BTW.. how the hell can anyone say 109 has better high speed elevator than SPIT?

trim man trim.........if you dont believe me take a 109 up high enough so that when you dive you reach atleast 700 kph by the time your on the deck, use maximum up elevator trim and then pull out and watch your wing snap off.

LilHorse
05-09-2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Funny how "USAF_pilot" and his 18 posts in 7 months turns up here to claim how he as an "American" flyer can easily win in his "ultimate" P-47 and that 109's are well modelled... Never seen him on the servers either... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Maybe he's shot you down under an alias.

ploughman
05-09-2005, 01:37 PM
For a 109 thread there's shed load of the usual S*itfire nO0boid propaganda. This'd be alot more interesting if every other post wasn't some one new wading in and establishing his "another n00b in a Zoomfire got owned by a 109er what a bunch of losers" credentials. Change the record guys, it was boring last year.

Now that I've alienated you all...I've been spending a bit of time lately trying to learn to fly with all the switches on and I can't seem to get anything near the performance I'm supposed to. I've read up on the "how to manage an engine thing" on air-warfare and I'm still useless. Are there any type specific instructions on-line anywhere that anyone might point me to please?

Atzebrueck
05-09-2005, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
trim man trim.........

Nearly every plane has elevator trim (exceptions: I16 etc.).
The difference is, that some planes have to make use of it (109), while others do quite well without it (190).
But don't forget that in FB/AEP/PF trimming a plane tail-heavy reduces the elevator movement regarding the opposite direction.

OldMan____
05-09-2005, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Our online test team will be testing deacceleration issues in next test set. So we will se if this is true. Also will test Elevator authority.


BTW.. how the hell can anyone say 109 has better high speed elevator than SPIT?

trim man trim.........if you dont believe me take a 109 up high enough so that when you dive you reach atleast 700 kph by the time your on the deck, use maximum up elevator trim and then pull out and watch your wing snap off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that kind of response is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You cannot use this to AIM. Spit MAXIMUM elevator effect may be smaller, but it is controlled by your STICK.. not trim. Trim is only good for pull out of dives.


Elevator authority is what 190 and P51 have..

p1ngu666
05-09-2005, 02:37 PM
well, i think 109 may have better when going very very fast...
remmber i was only in a g6late when we did the tests, not the useal k4 g6as u see onwhine.

btw the g6late was abit worse than spitfire in most areas, but not a big difference by anymeans http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LStarosta
05-09-2005, 03:13 PM
Looks like I hopped in a little too late.

I favor Allied aircraft myself, but I can't take this stupid anti-109 whining bullsh!t any longer. What are you idiots really whining about? The 109 is a high performance aircraft, like any other, with its strengths and weakenesses which I am sure have been discussed already in the last 5 pages. For one, the 109 has horrible high speed control responses, particularly on the elevator.

I'm thinking that whiners like HayateAce are just fishing for attention here, because I cannot believe that they would believe such an idiotic argument like the one they are trying to present.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
05-09-2005, 03:52 PM
hmm i do agree on some points with Haterace
although i think he cant fly for **** and got his a$$ handed to him so thats why he is crying so hard

The one point i hate about the 109 is that it can do some wierd stall turns without a stall and keep the nose skywards and pop you with a mk108 it can be frustrating.
And the 109K4 needs to be toned down in the climb department but for the rest i think its within a proper FB FM compared to some other planes like the *cough* spitfire

about the 108...its Fine IMHO..its not to accurate at distance or to strong the only thing is that it is overused on both the 190 and 109 and should be more restricted esp in 1943 that is when the MG151 gets fixed ofcourse http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oh and even if planes like the late 109s are so uber as haterface discribes doesnt that make them much more of a pleasure to shoot down ?

JG5_UnKle
05-09-2005, 04:05 PM
haterface

Brilliant, each new thread gives more comedy value http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

p1ngu666
05-09-2005, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Looks like I hopped in a little too late.

I favor Allied aircraft myself, but I can't take this stupid anti-109 whining bullsh!t any longer. What are you idiots really whining about? The 109 is a high performance aircraft, like any other, with its strengths and weakenesses which I am sure have been discussed already in the last 5 pages. For one, the 109 has horrible high speed control responses, particularly on the elevator.

I'm thinking that whiners like HayateAce are just fishing for attention here, because I cannot believe that they would believe such an idiotic argument like the one they are trying to present.

read page two ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 04:20 PM
Did Hayate even reply to this thread later on... or his polishing his 109 skills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Not with 100% fuel load mate

I'm afraid so.

Time to alt and m/sec.

1000 - :37 - 27.0
2000 - 1:12 - 28.6
3000 - 1:47 - 28.6
4000 - 2:23 - 27.8
5000 - 3:01 - 26.3
6000 - 3:45 - 22.7
7000 - 4:39 - 18.5

And here it is with 25% fuel

1000 - :34 - 29.4
2000 - 1:05 - 32.3
3000 - 1:37 - 31.3
4000 - 2:10 - 30.3
5000 - 2:43 - 30.3
6000 - 3:22 - 25.6
7000 - 4:10 - 20.8

It's a rocket man! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the test roban, would you share the procedure? Meaning how do you conduct such tests.

Thanks.

robban75
05-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Thanks for the test roban, would you share the procedure? Meaning how do you conduct such tests.

Thanks.

I use the Crimea map as Oleg said it has the ideal conditions.

I can either choose to take off from the beach, which means I have to switch of realistic landings, or, too save time, use QMB, fly just as low as I can over water, which is preferable as it give the best altitude reading. Accelerate to almost climbspeed. In the K-4 I climb at 270km/h, so I pull up at around 260-265km/h. I record every track so to make it easier to time it. I start the timer when I begin the pull up for the climb. I then read the time for every 500m. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

USAF_pilot
05-10-2005, 12:07 AM
Yawn Buzzaw I've seen you fly in VWF and well you werent much of a hot shot in that war.Yes I do fly under an alias and will continue to do so..Wonder if the same attention could be focused on the LaGG3.Oldman why dont you focus on the LaGG's remarkable engine durability and ability to withstand MULTIPLE 20mm hits on engine and still fly on FULL power even with engine smoking?

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 01:15 AM
Ha ha ha, hook, line, and sink'm all! I think Hayate got all you guys good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Unless I missed his post, he never even came back after the first post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

It's ok though, it's the internet, there is no shame. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz Franzen

Vipez-
05-10-2005, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
What about Mig 3 which have very weak elevator at high speed much worse than bf 109. As i read Mig 3 was high alt interceptor with good high speed handling and with bad slow speed behaviour.

I might be wrong, but I recently made weird discovery, I think Mig3 1940-version seems to have better elevators, than 1941-Mig3s.. (UD, UB, SHKAS-versions).

Tobus75
05-10-2005, 05:45 AM
blahdieblahdieblahblahblah....

The plane does not count, it's the pilot that makes the difference! That's why I suck online btw!

Badsight.
05-10-2005, 11:17 PM
while i seen Hayate_Hater for what he was in his very first post , he brought up one thing about the Bf109 series that hasnt been talked about much

Bf109s were not stellar planes for ROLLING performance

in FB , you , me & anyone else can use the rolling performance of the Bf109 to out-manouver Spitfire , any mark

especially at high speed , the Bf109 in FB/PF has good rolling performance , & its (F G & K)rolling performance is better than any mark of Spitfire

that , imo , is bogus

it been a interesting read , we have people saying its better than it really is in this thread

& conversely

we have people playing down its performance as worse than it really is

oh why cant only objective people start & reply to threads

(PPS : Hayate_Hater only wants easy-to-kill axis planes , zero of what he says is un-biased)

HayateAce
05-11-2005, 12:31 AM
You see even from the few Pro-Fb~109 posters here that they let some honesty shine through the dark clouds of Bogus 109.

"Well, I do agree on......." and so forth.

It's ok to have these feelings, it has become widespread knowledge how silly Oleg 1C have allowed the Fb~109 to become. Everyone is now seeing it for the Ghey Noob-mobile. Razz the plane, not teh Playa.

G A M E P L A Y 109s, or NOBODY wants to fly realistic blue side.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Keep those good posts comin' and someday we have realism 109, OK?

Oleg: GP~109 is Teh new 1337 best.

http://www.mgm.com/mgm/images/posterart/UFO-00AA1-poster_hires.jpg

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:41 AM
well you were a troll from your very first post so i dont hold out any hope , but here goes . . .

you could have at least a semblance of credibilty if you at least faked objectivity once in a while

so which Allied/USAF replicating squad was it again your from ?

still waiting to know your real login here Hayate_Hater

JG52Karaya-X
05-11-2005, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
The Jug is better than average at 2.5 in my test. Due to the buffeting encountered with the Fw, I would perhaps recommend and sharp pullup combined with a roll. To follow and try to stay ahead, (only natural), he might end up snap stalling. He rolls faster, and has better pullout at these speed ranges (may differ at higher or lower speeds) but the Jug has the advantage of stability. The Jug also won't blackout as fast, while the Fw will be fighting it to try and stay ahead. Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm not a Jug expert but as far as I know they introduced dive brakes sometime during the development of the D series (model D-25 maybe) - anyway our D27 should actually have dive-brakes. And what do you need divebrakes for? Getting out of high-speed dives... so I'd think the P47 had its share of problems with high-speeds too.

Just a thought

Kurfurst__
05-11-2005, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
Bf109s were not stellar planes for ROLLING performance

in FB , you , me & anyone else can use the rolling performance of the Bf109 to out-manouver Spitfire , any mark especially at high speed , the Bf109 in FB/PF has good rolling performance , & its (F G & K)rolling performance is better than any mark of Spitfire

that , imo , is bogus


That is probably because the Spitfire had troubles with rolling performance through its life as well. Namely, excessive stickforces at any speed (never solved), loosing aileron effectiveness due to ballooning of the fabric ailerons (solved), loosing roll performance due to heavy wing flexing (not solved until post-war).

The result...

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1094128180_rolldataweb.jpg

The Spit definietely needed Viagra at high speed. ,)

All roll reports I have seen show VERY humble roll rates for the Spit at these higher airspeeds. I guess the reason is that those horrible stickforces, the ailerons could not deflected fully past as low as 140(!) mph IAS at the maximum stickforce the pilot could exert in the narrow cocpit, 40 lbs. Guess what happens at 400 mph... and yes, thats for the metal aileron ones.

OTOH the 109s ailerons were quite light, full deflection possible with as little as 20 lbs at 450 kph/300mph IAS, with 80-90 degree per sec (see Southwood, and Hanna also says 'its similiar to the Mustang at 300mph, which cuts in well with the chart). Compare with the chart... Spitty, 50 deg/sec with 50% greater, 30 lbs stickforce.

That explains why the 109 is somewhat better at roll at those very high speeds. It ain`t stellar by any standard, ca 50-60 deg/sec at 400mph, just about as much I expect for it.

crazyivan1970
05-11-2005, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see even from the few Pro-Fb~109 posters here that they let some honesty shine through the dark clouds of Bogus 109.

"Well, I do agree on......." and so forth.

It's ok to have these feelings, it has become widespread knowledge how silly Oleg 1C have allowed the Fb~109 to become. Everyone is now seeing it for the Ghey Noob-mobile. Razz the plane, not teh Playa.

G A M E P L A Y 109s, or NOBODY wants to fly realistic blue side.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Keep those good posts comin' and someday we have realism 109, OK?

Oleg: GP~109 is Teh new 1337 best.

http://www.mgm.com/mgm/images/posterart/UFO-00AA1-poster_hires.jpg

Standing ovation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The most well put post in the history of this board... wow man, mommy should be proud http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ploughman
05-11-2005, 10:43 AM
Hardly good debate but bloody good entertainment.

LeadSpitter_
05-11-2005, 02:02 PM
It appears we are mopping the skies clean of spitfires with 109s my friend uglykid http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/search.php?sort=3&name=

MOH_MADMAN
05-11-2005, 02:52 PM
i can successfully land my 109 on its canopy, walk the wings during a stall, step out back for leak while in inverted loop, and still have two hands for two beers while mowing down the enemy w little effort to aim.

got teh trigger mapped to a thought process key so dont have to aim or lead such an accurate gun.
love that bird.

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 03:11 PM
Mismy left the PC unattended while she went soliciting for the evening again?

Cheers,
Norris

Cajun76
05-11-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
The Jug is better than average at 2.5 in my test. Due to the buffeting encountered with the Fw, I would perhaps recommend and sharp pullup combined with a roll. To follow and try to stay ahead, (only natural), he might end up snap stalling. He rolls faster, and has better pullout at these speed ranges (may differ at higher or lower speeds) but the Jug has the advantage of stability. The Jug also won't blackout as fast, while the Fw will be fighting it to try and stay ahead. Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm not a Jug expert but as far as I know they introduced dive brakes sometime during the development of the D series (model D-25 maybe) - anyway our D27 should actually have dive-brakes. And what do you need divebrakes for? Getting out of high-speed dives... so I'd think the P47 had its share of problems with high-speeds too.

Just a thought </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes, they could indeed get away from you. It was more common at higher alts, and the pilots had to recognize the onset, and chop the throttle. If one were in a dive and you got into compressibilty despite your recovery procedures, as you moved down into thicker air and the speed of sound rose, the a/c would lose the compressibility effects and once again be controllable. Recovery was by no means garunteed, but there was a good chance.

In relation to the timeline of Jug progression, right about the time the -25? -27? models were being introduced, they had also recieved an additional internal tank that with external tankage let the Jug reach Berlin. Ironically, the bulk of the Thunderbolts were being transferred to the Ninth for tactical air support and this may be the biggest reason for the dive-brakes being installed.

Ugly_Kid
05-11-2005, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
It appears we are mopping the skies clean of spitfires with 109s my friend uglykid http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/search.php?sort=3&name=

And what exactly is your stats supposed to show? That 109 does well? My experience on the spit is that you do well against one opponent but you're too tempted to get engaged with him and before you know somebody hits you behind the tree and blows you into bits. BnZ keeps you alive longer and reflects to the stats and indeed FW-190 A-6, i.e, boasts a higher K/D ratio than G-2 for instance. That's how I read them stats, nothing to do with plane, only with the way you choose to fight. Be sure spit 9 beats pathetic G-6 hands down also as a BnZ fighter, it's only that it doesn't seem to sink in to the masses to employ it in that manner, hence worse stats.

That's my opinion and I frankly don't care what kind of weird ideas you get from DF servers, try online wars and you very soon get another kind of idea of ueber and cr@p, they put the whole performance, strengths and disadvantages in quite a different perspective. For some people the game is never going to be good enough...

JamesBlonde888
05-11-2005, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:

K4 stall less than F4



Didn't the K series have leading edge slats? To increase the stall speed?



Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c



What is wrong with that, surely this characteristic is no surprise...?

p1ngu666
05-11-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:

K4 stall less than F4



Didn't the K series have leading edge slats? To increase the stall speed?



Push 109 nose forwards, MUCH faster effect than other a/c



What is wrong with that, surely this characteristic is no surprise...? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

109 had slats from emil or before http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JamesBlonde888
05-11-2005, 04:59 PM
So they would have 'hopefully' improved with the design changes then...

HayateAce
05-11-2005, 05:45 PM
So why should a 109 nose over faster than a P51 or Spit?

So it is understood, I am simply referring to this bizarre axis-pivot that teh 109 is capable of doing. When you push the stick forward, the a/c pivots immediately forward much quicker than other a/c that have equal or better elevators. For an extreme test, push the nose down on say, the P38 and feel the spongy cushion of air that makes the move very sluggish.

Bottom line it allows the already weasle-worm-like bogus evasion to be even more incorrectly modeled. More gimmicks for...

G A M E P L A Y.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://www.peoplefriendlyplaces.com/decor/images/tiger.gif

crazyivan1970
05-11-2005, 05:51 PM
Once again, apples and oranges, comparing single engine fighter with the twin. Go nose over in Me110 and tell me how she does http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ugly_Kid
05-11-2005, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Once again, apples and oranges, comparing single engine fighter with the twin. Go nose over in Me110 and tell me how she does http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Or even better, just once, as a very rare, (or rather try it for the first time in your life) exception <span class="ev_code_BLUE">generate some numbers and evidence</span> to support the rather subjective claims. I haven't really noticed that 109 had a more effective elevator in push nor pull than p51 for instance, nope. So it isn't really that "anybody can see it", is it now. You don't even have a clue how 109 should roll yet you claim it(among the other things) to be wrong. Interesting is also the typical MK108 claim, a more rehearsed complainer just got a pretty embarrassing showdown on SimHQ. He neither wasn't able to argument nor show in exactly what way a one hit killer is overmodeled in the game when it actually came to a point to put some flesh to the bones. You clowns make subjective claims, get the typical jokers to jump your bandwagon on emotional, national or religious basis, everybody yells hurrah and that's your evidence.

x__CRASH__x
05-12-2005, 07:10 AM
I bet he has been flying against AI 109's set at Ace. Because his comments just don't add up or hold water. If it wasn't AI, then it was a 109 Ace. I've been flying the 109 since the original IL-2. I know my way around it. three quaters of the statements you made are just plain silly and show how little you know. The others are available with years of practice.


************************************************

Crash, you are playing with fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MOH_MADMAN
05-12-2005, 11:20 AM
LMAO Crasher
that pic a keeper