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View Full Version : has Youss made an IL2 compare w/ 4.02 data yet?



xTHRUDx
10-27-2005, 09:05 PM
has Youss made an IL2 compare w/ 4.02 data yet?

if so where can i get it?

TheGozr
10-28-2005, 12:59 AM
..................hallo, some body home?................

Ps: Bump!

JG52Karaya-X
10-28-2005, 01:39 AM
As far as I know Youss is no longer allowed to make IL2C as he fell into disgrace for leaking 4.00 (the unofficial 4.01)...

Which leads me into thinking: Why can't somebody more trustworthy make a successor to IL2C. Tagert comes to mind... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

IvanoBulo
10-28-2005, 02:14 AM
Yes, he did.
But only he using it. Oleg forbided share this program.

xTHRUDx
10-28-2005, 02:22 AM
i guess we'll have to do some reverse engineering and up date it ourselves

Ugly_Kid
10-28-2005, 08:51 AM
And I think that the reason is as follows:
-AFAIK (or from what I've heard and makes sense) IL2C based it's data on AI flight model (not human one), which was tabular up to the 4.01
-The current AI uses also human flight model which is not based on tabular programming but to the real equations of flight and that is more difficult to hack from the code unless you hack the equations too and understand them...

For this reason I doubt you'll be seeing IL2C unless it comes from 1C directly (which wouldn't be that bad) - maybe integrated into code

carguy_
10-28-2005, 09:11 AM
Youss is a person whos name is not to be said/written just like the GT guy.

Ugly_Kid
10-28-2005, 10:05 AM
Or Voldemort?

carguy_
10-28-2005, 12:11 PM
Yes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

p1ngu666
10-28-2005, 01:25 PM
there was also the cheat they used to locate bombers, when the crews switched views they would see the position...

i thought oleg disliked that much more than a 4.0leak, which i didnt know about..

HelSqnProtos
10-28-2005, 02:00 PM
S~!

I don't know Youss personally but we have mutual friends, I hear he is a good man.

As for IL2 compare I too have heard that Oleg asked him not to make a new one. Of course Youss respected that request.

I think having Tagert make a new one is a terrific idea. Let us ask him.

blairgowrie
10-28-2005, 02:13 PM
Any relation to Youssef?

crazyivan1970
10-28-2005, 02:36 PM
Before slamming the guy, get to know him ..at least. Maybe he is guilty of some things, but trust me, he contributed to this sim more then any of you can imagine. It is not a big secret that Youss and Oleg don`t get along... but it doesn`t make Youss any less of the person.

blairgowrie
10-28-2005, 04:16 PM
So sorry I didn't realise Youus was a real person. I thought someone was just using Youss as in "youse guys". Not my nature to slam anyone.

p1ngu666
10-28-2005, 07:30 PM
he is a nice chap, i vaguly know him, hes done some dubious things tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

thought he/they got on ok with oleg, but i guess not any more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

really liked il2c tho

NorrisMcWhirter
10-29-2005, 03:40 AM
il2c is "pretty much" only a front end for data in some text files so it shouldn't be hard to use it with regenerated information. You can even import the info from the text files into Excel and display it differently (and, in some ways, more usefully - like 'n' plane comparisons on one chart).

The key problem with reverse engineering it is knowing the test conditions used to obtain the data in the first place and I doubt any of the "protagonists" involved are going to provide this information.

Ta,
norris

Jetbuff
10-29-2005, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Before slamming the guy, get to know him ..at least. Maybe he is guilty of some things, but trust me, he contributed to this sim more then any of you can imagine. It is not a big secret that Youss and Oleg don`t get along... but it doesn`t make Youss any less of the person.
I wouldn't slam anyone, but that bomber-switch exploit was very low and has permanently marred my perceptions of him.

crazyivan1970
10-29-2005, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Before slamming the guy, get to know him ..at least. Maybe he is guilty of some things, but trust me, he contributed to this sim more then any of you can imagine. It is not a big secret that Youss and Oleg don`t get along... but it doesn`t make Youss any less of the person.
I wouldn't slam anyone, but that bomber-switch exploit was very low and has permanently marred my perceptions of him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bomber switch exploit was known a year before everyone started to blame Youss for it... And 401 patch was not leaked by him either... but for some strange reason he gets blamed for many things, still puzzles me, really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for original question... Programm does exist, i found reference to it on russian forum...but my understanding is... it`s not for public anymore..


http://tinypic.com/f3ddlj.gif

p1ngu666
10-29-2005, 08:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Willey
10-30-2005, 04:28 AM
http://home.arcor.de/eldur/smilies/256_smiley-surprised.gif

We should have a poll about that, just like that western addon thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif

JtD
10-30-2005, 05:21 AM
I consider a tool like this important enough to include it into the core program itself. I can only hope that Oleg knows how intersting and useful it is and includes it - one way or another - in BoB.

But for now I am desperatly looking for a current version of IL-compare and seeing how many enhanced featured it has, my wish only becomes more pronounced!

What harm can be done by releasing this tool into public?

JG53Harti
10-30-2005, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
I consider a tool like this important enough to include it into the core program itself. I can only hope that Oleg knows how intersting and useful it is and includes it - one way or another - in BoB.

But for now I am desperatly looking for a current version of IL-compare and seeing how many enhanced featured it has, my wish only becomes more pronounced!

What harm can be done by releasing this tool into public?



thats right !

neural_dream
10-30-2005, 06:35 AM
Let's be realistic. What game has ever released to the public its inner mechanism? Oleg has pampered us too much and now we have funny demands.

I play Nba Live the last 11 years and I still haven't understood all the factors behind a good field goal and exactly how they combine. So, i play the way I would if it were real. If there were a NBALIVEcompare with the exact curves and probabilities, it would be chess, not simulation, and I'd probably stop playing after a year or two.

I won't accept a different opinion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif. Complain as much as you want about anything. That's what this forum is about after all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif.

IL-2compare makes the game arcade.

JG53Harti
10-30-2005, 06:41 AM
but this is the only real documentation for inGame-data. Where else we will find all the stuff is needed ? Do you has a manual where you can find it ?

neural_dream
10-30-2005, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
but this is the only real documentation for inGame-data. Where else we will find all the stuff is needed ? Do you has a manual where you can find it ?

What do you mean by needed? In my opinion the guide i have in my sig is more than enough for what "is needed" by a newcomer to save him from leaving the sim out of frustration that noone tells him anything. Then, when you know all the basics you go on reading, discussing and playing.

I find it more natural than looking at the exact curve which could be said that indirectly is used as input in the sim, since there is no way that it won't be obeyed by it.

JG53Harti
10-30-2005, 06:50 AM
and you check and correct this with every version of the game ?

neural_dream
10-30-2005, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
and you check and correct this with every version of the game ?
You shouldn't look at every version of the game as different just because there's a change of say 10km/h in the top speed of a plane or if it stalls a little easier than before. Look at it as a bunch of lower quality aircraft of the same type that you got in your squadron. Don't look at it like it's flying pacman.

JG53Harti
10-30-2005, 07:02 AM
thats not what i mean. You looked at the Screen ?

neural_dream
10-30-2005, 07:14 AM
Sure, so juicy I made futile attempts to click on it. A wealth of inside info (, which i think shouldn't be available to the public).

JtD
10-30-2005, 07:55 AM
Il-2 contains a lot more technical info and requires a lot less reading.

The complete ac reference guide is not a substitute, only a (nice) addition.

It also took much of it's ac performance data from il-2 compare.

Grey_Mouser67
10-30-2005, 08:06 AM
If Oleg wanted to make a few bucks...once he settled on a FM and a plane, he might publish a book with all the pertinent peformance data and include a CD with it with his version of IL2Compare...like one of those books you buy for counsel games.

jugent
10-30-2005, 02:06 PM
The charts was a "maschirovka" a source of desinformation.

Me and another human? tested if a/c xx could outcurve a/c yy because the chart said that it was so.

It was false.

I have been shoot down many times because I was percistant in climbing, outspeeding, outcurving another a/c because the chart said that it should.
It would be much nicer if Maddox gave us a chart that showed the true thrust-, lift-, drag- yaw- wingload-forces for the a/c:s in the game.

JG53Harti
10-31-2005, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Sure, so juicy I made futile attempts to click on it. A wealth of inside info (, which i think shouldn't be available to the public).

OK i read the reference guide followed by your link. If you looked correctly on the pic, you will see, that a La7 has less rounds per gun if you use it with a bomb-loadout.

Where i can find this maybe in the game or int the guide ?
These things are much more interesting than the curves. Or the max Divespeed etc.

Would be very useful.

FatBoyHK
10-31-2005, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
IL-2compare makes the game arcade.

This is the funnest quote I have ever seen in this forum.... gonna put it in my sig.

neural_dream
10-31-2005, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
...a La7 has less rounds per gun if you use it with a bomb-loadout....These things are much more interesting than the curves...
Ok, i agree, that thing with the reduced ammo when there's loadout was suprising. Good to know and virtually impossible to read that anywhere else. You're right. Btw, a La7 in 4.02 can easily sustain 610-611km/h TAS at sea level (Crimea, 100%fuel etc). Strange that the graph shows 602. Also, 750km/h is too low a max dive speed. It's more like 790-800km/h IAS.

to FatBoyHK: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif a difficult one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif.

JG53Harti
10-31-2005, 04:50 AM
@CrazyIvan:
Is it possible to ask Oleg if he can made such a tool like IL2compare with this data aviable for all ? I mean the loadoutstuff or max dive etc ? Not realy interessted in the curves. It would be nice to have but more the other things.

Grunherzjager
10-31-2005, 05:09 AM
It´s so sad that such wonderful tool will be restricted only to Youss and his friends. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DINGHAO
10-31-2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by jugent:
The charts was a "maschirovka" a source of desinformation.

Me and another human? tested if a/c xx could outcurve a/c yy because the chart said that it was so.

It was false.

I have been shoot down many times because I was percistant in climbing, outspeeding, outcurving another a/c because the chart said that it should.
It would be much nicer if Maddox gave us a chart that showed the true thrust-, lift-, drag- yaw- wingload-forces for the a/c:s in the game.

Not to be a slam, but that is the mistake of the average user of the charts.

In general, the charts only hold true for 2 planes starting at the same speed and altitude etc. depending on the test (i.e. same energy state). As for Turn charts, they indicate performance for a constant turn held at constant speed.

In reality of combat, this is almost always NOT the case.

The charts are only a guide to let you know how the planes stack up on paper. Out there the best way to use the charts is to know in general what the planes strengths are. Thus, in some instances flying plane X against plane Y1, 2, 3 etc. you may have a better turn advantage against Y1, but not the others, but a better climb advantage against Y2, but not 1 and 3 etc.

Thus you can use this as a guide to your choice of manuver, given your energy state, and the perceived state of the enemy (which is usually a guess).

For me, this becomes a seat of the pants thing. My brain does not work fast enough, or my memory deep enough, to allow me to make the proper calculations all the time. I just know that in general, what the strengths of the aircraft I am flying, and that of the enemy I may face.

I love IL2compare, if not just to see how the planes stack up visually. I don't really think it betrays any secrets.

just my 2c

jugent
10-31-2005, 04:17 PM
That what we did, we stayed at best curv-speed, at the altitude where the test was done, I think 1000m.
We tested max airspeed (true) at specified altitudes.
We tested climrate at specified (true) airspeed.
The cart didnt match how it was for us.
I cant remember the exact figures and faults today but the D9 didnt reach the speed given at the chart. The spit IX outcurved the G2 at 1000 m.
There are many un-revieled secrets in the chart, like top dive-speed, acceleration, roll-rate, drag at certain speed etc etc.
My conclusion is desinformation.

Badsight.
10-31-2005, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Don't look at it like it's flying pacman. this is an amazing statement

obviously if you want to know the details & true abilitys of planes in FB you must be an arcade gaming user of FB

Grey_Mouser67
10-31-2005, 08:48 PM
Personally, I study IL-2 Compare with great detail...I will dive/climb to an altitude I know I can out perform the enemy at and engage the aircraft there...more often than not I will kill him too.

There are a few errors in the charts, and turn time is less important in angles fighting than turn radius...IL2 compare deals with turn time not turn radius...but speed and climb along with max climb speed curves are invaluable in dogfighting...

Assuming one thing...you understand the energy state of your opponent going into the battle.

I think it would be a shame not to have this tool available to all...the only downside is that it shows how good or badly modelled certain aircraft are.

I'd love to see it...now I have to speed test all those aircraft myself...started doing that and keeping a spreadsheet of those values. There is a science to flying and fighting. Tactics are dependent on a plane's strengths and weaknesses...I'll make a bet...anyone who dismisses the value of IL2 compare also complains relentlessly about Russian uberplanes and spends much time in turnfights and often in quake servers...any takers? The really good pilots are master tacticians, good flyers, good at gunnery and interested in the science of aerial combat...be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

neural_dream
11-01-2005, 05:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif One last effort to explain my logic:

Simulation
Know a lot about your plane: a quite accurate estimation of most curves presented in IL2compare, know the exact armament-ammo you have, know where you are vulnerable, and for known enemies know about where you are better. e.g. the German pilots were given explicit orders not to engage below 5000m "Yakovlev fighters lacking an oil cooler under the nose" (Yak3). You switch Supercharger and adjust mixture according to experience and watching the RPMs. Nobody told you and even if they did you don't believe them until you tried. Well, you get the idea on what is simulation.

Arcade
Know the exact performance curves of the enemy plane, in fact have them printed in front of you while "flying". Knowing exactly when to switch Supercharger, lean mixture, and at what altitudes your plane is better, without having or wanting to have any idea why.

Jetbuff
11-01-2005, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
I wouldn't slam anyone, but that bomber-switch exploit was very low and has permanently marred my perceptions of him.

Bomber switch exploit was known a year before everyone started to blame Youss for it... And 401 patch was not leaked by him either... but for some strange reason he gets blamed for many things, still puzzles me, really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No puzzle. I never blamed him for the exploit itself but the incredibly insulting arguments he put forward when cornered. According to him, so long as he did not use a special program to read the log file (I guess he was alt-tabbing or shift-tabbing?) and everyone knew about it it wasn't wrong at all.

Seriously?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I'm sorry but I can never understand or respect the "win at any cost" crowd. Yes it's fun to win, but only when it's against a competent enemy and fair odds.

JtD
11-01-2005, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:

Simulation
Know a lot about your plane: a quite accurate estimation of most curves presented in IL2compare, know the exact armament-ammo you have, know where you are vulnerable, and for known enemies know about where you are better. e.g. the German pilots were given explicit orders not to engage below 5000m "Yakovlev fighters lacking an oil cooler under the nose" (Yak3). You switch Supercharger and adjust mixture according to experience and watching the RPMs. Nobody told you and even if they did you don't believe them until you tried. Well, you get the idea on what is simulation.

Exactly like the real pilots did back in the days. Aircraft manuals and extensive testing of own and foreign aircraft were only done for the fun of it and to get rid of all that blank paper.

Jump into the plane and try flying, if you die becaue you don't know how, just hit refly. Just like the real pilots did back in WW2.

neural_dream
11-01-2005, 10:04 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif lol. Alright, i see. Noone agrees with me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

JG53Harti
11-02-2005, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
@CrazyIvan:
Is it possible to ask Oleg if he can made such a tool like IL2compare with this data aviable for all ? I mean the loadoutstuff or max dive etc ? Not realy interessted in the curves. It would be nice to have but more the other things.


*BUMP*

neural_dream
11-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Harti:
@CrazyIvan:
Is it possible to ask Oleg if he can made such a tool like IL2compare with this data aviable for all ? I mean the loadoutstuff or max dive etc ? Not realy interessted in the curves. It would be nice to have but more the other things.
*BUMP* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUMP for the BUMP.
Since i completely lost the battle of the arguments of the last three pageshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I will go with the winners. I'm sure they'll do it for BoB though. I mean, include ammo information and things like that in the screen where you pick your plane. The concept of the object viewer was a joke anyway.

FltLt_HardBall
11-02-2005, 10:29 PM
Does anyone know how to contact Youss? The data would be really useful for making HardBall's Aircraft Viewer more accurate.

Maybe someone could PM me confidentially?

Perhaps I could broker a deal between him and Oleg so that limited data gets 'hard-coded' into my viewer and doesn't go to waste.

Oleg originally tusted me enough to let me have the in-game object-viewer data confidentially, which is how HardBall's Aircraft Viewer came about.

JG53Harti
11-03-2005, 02:44 AM
*BUMP*

@Hardball:
its not only to ask Youss like you can read in this post
http://forum.sukhoi.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=17

And Youss posted there too:

KLICK (http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showpost.php?p=590572&postcount=116)
žœ? Ñƒбµ¶´?'Ñ"µ. 99% Ñ€?боÑ"Ñ" ¿о ºом¿?Ñ€¸ ´µл?µÑ" "¸м?, ? нµ Ñ. (я Ñ"?º н? ¿о´Ñ...²?Ñ"µ - Ñ"?' Ñ"?м ¿о´нµÑÑ"¸, мусоÑ€ собÑ€?Ñ"ÑŒ.) ? "¸м? ³о²оÑ€¸Ñ" "žœ з?¿Ñ€µÑ"¸л".


This means, that Dima has done the most work. So I think its better to ask Oleg direktly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
bec. he is in his team

Badsight.
11-03-2005, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
The concept of the object viewer was a joke anyway. acutally no

the Object Viewer in a Historical Simulation is an excellent & near essential & required addition to fill in additional infomation & knowledge about the Real Life hardware the Sim is trying to replicate

much of the ObjectViewer is 100% accurate along with many inaccuracys yes

IL2compare often didnt match in certian areas what human players were able to do , it wasnt the ultimate source at all to me but it was a huge source of comparison graphs it one location that was easy to use

prehaps with the AI supposedly being limited to human player FM limitations now IL2compare could be more accurate than ever ?

JG53Harti
11-03-2005, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
@CrazyIvan:
Is it possible to ask Oleg if he can made such a tool like IL2compare with this data aviable for all ? I mean the loadoutstuff or max dive etc ? Not realy interessted in the curves. It would be nice to have but more the other things.


*hoch_damit*

neural_dream
11-03-2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
The concept of the object viewer was a joke anyway. actually no
the Object Viewer in a Historical Simulation is an excellent & near essential & required addition to fill in additional infomation & knowledge about the Real Life hardware the Sim is trying to replicate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I should have said "implementation", not "concept". All information should be either seen or a click away from the screen you select your plane. Should be consistent both in content and layout, should contain all planes, and a few basic tips, such as "the Mustangs didn't win the war on the deck" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif, or well something with less irony.

JG53Harti
11-05-2005, 06:28 AM
uuih so weit unten tztztz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*BUMP*
and the question to Ivan, if there are some news about the compare ?

p1ngu666
11-05-2005, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
The concept of the object viewer was a joke anyway. actually no
the Object Viewer in a Historical Simulation is an excellent & near essential & required addition to fill in additional infomation & knowledge about the Real Life hardware the Sim is trying to replicate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I should have said "implementation", not "concept". All information should be either seen or a click away from the screen you select your plane. Should be consistent both in content and layout, should contain all planes, and a few basic tips, such as "the Mustangs didn't win the war on the deck" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif, or well something with less irony. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

and yes baddsight, it was a excellent tool, think youss got some cr4p over it tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

kubanloewe
11-05-2005, 09:43 AM
bump http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JG53Harti
11-05-2005, 02:55 PM
stimmt

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/kaffeetrinker_2.gif -BUMP*

Daiichidoku
11-05-2005, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
I should have said "implementation", not "concept". All information should be either seen or a click away from the screen you select your plane. Should be consistent both in content and layout, should contain all planes, and a few basic tips, such as "the Mustangs didn't win the war on the deck" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif, or well something with less irony.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

kubanloewe
11-07-2005, 10:28 AM
now, what about the Program ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif