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View Full Version : Muzzle flashes totally laughable.



XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 02:38 AM
The muzzle flashes in this game are TOTALLY overdone.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 02:38 AM
The muzzle flashes in this game are TOTALLY overdone.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 02:53 AM
yawn

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 02:56 AM
Alpirsbacher wrote:
- The muzzle flashes in this game are TOTALLY
- overdone.
-
-

You get used to it. Not having flown a real warbird in combat I do not have a valid opinion on the subject but I love the gouts of flame so its all good/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 02:57 AM
At least your having aood laugh.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 02:59 AM
I always laugh when a 37mm shell slams into my target. I think its related to a sudden sense of relife/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:00 AM
Jag,

I was talking to Alpirsbacher you knucklehead.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:07 AM
Pfffft!

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:11 AM
You have a leak../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:21 AM
I fired various weapons in my life - the 7.62 MG3 is comparable to MG17/81s and it produces no visible muzzle flash in daylight, small yellow /transparent/ specks at night. The Mauser BK20 - 20mm vehicle cannon - produces a smallish flash.

Things comparable to a 5 metres long, 2 metres diameter, totally obscuring the sight picture, muzzle flash of the Mk 108 in FB I ever saw were 120mm Leopard II cannon or 120mm infantry mortars fired at night. And those flashes don`t last as lonk as the FB Mk 108 blast.

I thought this sim strifed for realism. If so, there should be a setting to switch the muzzle flashes from B-Picture crap to realistic.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:22 AM
Nothing I can do about that since I had my gall bladder removed. All I can do is to lay off the lactose/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:33 AM
Jag,

I wonder if Alpirsbacher thinks your post was an answer to his../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:47 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Jag,
-
- I wonder if Alpirsbacher thinks your post was an
- answer to his

Mmmmm. Crap

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:47 AM
Alpirsbacher wrote:
- I fired various weapons in my life - the 7.62 MG3 is
- comparable to MG17/81s and it produces no visible
- muzzle flash in daylight, small yellow /transparent/
- specks at night. The Mauser BK20 - 20mm vehicle
- cannon - produces a smallish flash.
-
- Things comparable to a 5 metres long, 2 metres
- diameter, totally obscuring the sight picture,
- muzzle flash of the Mk 108 in FB I ever saw were
- 120mm Leopard II cannon or 120mm infantry mortars
- fired at night. And those flashes don`t last as lonk
- as the FB Mk 108 blast.
-
- I thought this sim strifed for realism. If so, there
- should be a setting to switch the muzzle flashes
- from B-Picture crap to realistic.
-
-

You can't compare modern smokeless powders to the propellants used back than. Many nations weren't even using powder, but things such as cordite. Sorry, but appels and oranges.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:50 AM
BfHeFwMe wrote:
- You can't compare modern smokeless powders to the
- propellants used back than. Many nations weren't
- even using powder, but things such as cordite.
- Sorry, but appels and oranges.
-
-
-
-

Right on the money. I Posted something similar but it never got past the preview stage. Might have something to do with 03:43 on my clock/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:59 AM
BfHeFwMe wrote:

- You can't compare modern smokeless powders to the
- propellants used back than. Many nations weren't
- even using powder, but things such as cordite.
- Sorry, but appels and oranges.

You`ve got a point there. I`ll have to make sure checking records - not that complicated since everybody `round here was working at Mauser (home of the MG42 and MK151 line of cannons) back then, my grandma assembled MG42s during the war http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Clock showing 5:00 AM and almost bingo beer. Gonna post on this soon.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:02 AM
Alpirsbacher wrote:
-- Clock showing 5:00 AM and almost bingo beer. Gonna
- post on this soon.
-
-
-
-

You in Germany?

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:17 AM
From the sound of it, I'm guessing that Alpirsbacher must have served in the Bundeswehr (pls. forgive my spelling) at some point. Alpirsbacher, does your Gran have any WW2 tales?

"After seeing the jacket I went back to our base."
"What date was it?", I asked.
"It was the 12th of June," he said. "Because it was during the World Cup."
You were watching the World Cup?"
There were no televisions because they were haram [forbidden]. But I was following it in the newspapers."
What was your favourite team?"
"England. Michael Owen and I like McManaman and David Seaman."
"England is your favourite team and you are about to blow yourself up in the jihad against kufr?"
"Politics is one thing. Football is something else."


Conversation between Jason Burke, Guardian journalist, and Didar, failed suicide bomber.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:38 AM
Yep, was in the Bundeswehr as a Panzergrenadier. Yep I live in germany, 15 km from Alpirsbach (home of the world`s best beer, http://www.alpirsbacher.de ), and 5 km from Oberndorf am Neckar, home of Mauser, and later Heckler & Koch.

Loads of wartime stories... my Grampa voluntereed for the Navy, but went Flak Gunner in Hamburg (his crew killed a Mosquito with an 88, and were awarded a bottle of booze once for starters....), other Grampa survived the Volkssturm (he was too young for infantry when the war started). Grandma Nr. 1 worked at Mauser and had 5 frontline guys writing love letters, Grandma Nr.2 worked on the fields....

They used to put Flak lights into the forest around here, so the bombers would drop into the countryside instead of the totally darkened Mauser plants. Today, the Mauser Werke still stand and the forests are littered with overgrown bomb craters. Sick sick sick stuff here, but another day...

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:47 AM
Apparently the muzzle flashes were even worse in reality, Oleg toned them down some for the sake of game play.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 05:12 AM
I don't know that it's so much they're overdone as it is they don't seem to account for blowback. The flash appears like it would if the plane were static, rather than moving at great speed.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 07:59 AM
Chivas wrote:
- Apparently the muzzle flashes were even worse in
- reality, Oleg toned them down some for the sake of
- game play.
-
-

Dang thats crazy stuff

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 12:16 PM
German ammunition during the war was some of the best stuff around, it produced less smoke and flash than that of the allies. Allied troops often had trouble establishing where shots were being fired from because the ammunition the Germans were using was superior.

The 8mm mauser round (7.92 x 57mm) the standard infantry round when used in the smaller length paratrooper rifle FG 42 the muzzle flash was huge because the powder had not sufficiently burnt out once reaching the muzzle. However, the muzzle flash wasn't noticeable with normal length rifles like the Mauser k98. So I don't see why the smaller MG muzzle flashes should be so large in this game as the barrel length should be sufficient.

Isn't this picture below using the 20mm wing cannons on an Me 109 E?

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/109images/gall10904med.jpg


You can see the tracers so this is quite a long burst but not much muzzle flash seems to be apparent.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 12:33 PM
"Apparently the muzzle flashes were even worse in reality"

No!

http://www.pbase.com/image/19520980

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:05 PM
Alpirsbacher wrote:
-
- Loads of wartime stories... my Grampa voluntereed
- for the Navy, but went Flak Gunner in Hamburg (his
- crew killed a Mosquito with an 88, and were awarded
- a bottle of booze once for starters....), other
- Grampa survived the Volkssturm (he was too young for
- infantry when the war started). Grandma Nr. 1 worked
- at Mauser and had 5 frontline guys writing love
- letters, Grandma Nr.2 worked on the fields....
-

My Grandpa was a flak gunner too, in Malta. Don't know if he hit anything, though.



"After seeing the jacket I went back to our base."
"What date was it?", I asked.
"It was the 12th of June," he said. "Because it was during the World Cup."
You were watching the World Cup?"
There were no televisions because they were haram [forbidden]. But I was following it in the newspapers."
What was your favourite team?"
"England. Michael Owen and I like McManaman and David Seaman."
"England is your favourite team and you are about to blow yourself up in the jihad against kufr?"
"Politics is one thing. Football is something else."


Conversation between Jason Burke, Guardian journalist, and Didar, failed suicide bomber.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:23 PM
Yep the 109E pic shows MG/FF being sighted in. Unfortunately, it only proves the muzzle flashes were more short-lived than in FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif as they`re not taken in the moment of firing. Typical white, transparent smoke trail in front of the guns.

My data indicates the 7.92 MGs used "powder" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif and nothing whatsoever about the cannons. Digging, digging, digging.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:32 PM
If Xnomad is correct about that Emil (and I think he is, those are 20mm) than it can be plainly seen that there is no huge flame belching forth from those cannons. Yes, the muzzle flashes are way overdone in this sim.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:49 PM
As I noted in another thread, those who have the History Channel, should watch 12 O'clock High. There is much war time film footage shown.

In one episode, a film was shot of a P-51 firing its guns. The camera plane was just off the port wing and very slightly lower than level. There was a noticible >>small<< flash at the muzzle and a bigger transparent flash [as seen in Il-2/FB, size wise) which in no way impeded the viewing of the details of the fuselage. There was also no cloud cover to block the sunlight. ie. a bright sky.

There is also some footage of attacking LW fighters. Wether they are firing their guns cannot be asertained but there is no flash seen if they are.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 10:30 PM
Although it has been said before, I'll say it again.....

Old film (esp B/W film) does not show muzzle flash as it would appear to the eye. The over exposure exaggerates the effect so in real life the muzzle "flash" would be less pronounced. At night it would be bright like in IL-2/FB but as for daytime it is over the top.

All IMHO of course /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 11:06 PM
Forget flashes... what's with the SMOKING machinegun rounds, where they really like that?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 01:08 AM
So what kind of powder, flaked, ball, extruded, or compressed, and that's just off the top of my head. What was it's composition, like any special additives to control pressures, burn rate, or ignition. What type priming system and it's chemical burn method, all that makes a huge difference. More to it than just powder verses cordite or some other detonation type compound.

Not as easy to call them wrong as one would think. Of course I don't know, never fired any ammo besides British .303's from the WWII time era, and that stuff pops a huge fire ball. It used string like strands soft as gum, simular to C-4 as a propellant, smelled like cooked bacon when fired.

Anyone wanting to prove flash levels has a major research project under way.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 01:19 AM
The history channel's Wings of the Red Star series had footage of IL-2s in the 'circle of death" formation, firing at ground targets. The muzzle flash of the weapons was quite noticeable in daylight, and similar to what's seen in the sim.

As noted, we don't know what sort of propellant was being used by the various services.

On another history channell show with interview footage from B-17 gunners, one guy was relating how you could see these "little specks" coming in, (the aircraft) and then the wings would "light up", and you'd realize they were shooting at you.

Modern nitrocellulose powders are extremely efficient, and can be tailored for various barrell lengths, etc.

During the war, I imagine production of whatever was available was the important thing.

The smoke trails from the tracer rounds are quite visible in most air combat footage from the period. One of the German aces (Galland, I think) related how he dodged several Mustangs who were on his six by firing all his guns. The sudden appearance of the smoke trails coming back at them spooked the novice Mustang pilots, who might have thought his 109 could shoot backwards!

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 01:40 AM
If a muzzle flash can be observed during daylight conditions depends on such things as efficiancy of the muzzle brake, Barrel length, mass and composition of propellant charge.

WW2 german aircraft MG and Cannon ammunition propellants throughout the whole range of 7.92mm up to 30mm cartridges were based on the main components of either Np - Nitropenta (pentaerythrite tetranitrate) or Nz - Nitrocellulose, with diphenylamine, or
similar compound, as a stabilizer and with other additives depending on the application. The shape of the propellant was usually either R.P. - R¶hren-Pulver (Tubular powder) or Bl.P. - Bl¤ttchen-Pulver (Flaked powder). The 13 mm x 64 mm Brandgranatpatrone ohne Zerl. of the MG131 i.e. used Nz Bl.P. (2.1x2.1x0,5) propellant - the numbers in brackets indicate the length, breadth and thickness of flakes.

The visual report if firing one those WW2 weapons should be quite similar to those you get with post WW2 equivalents of these weapons, as it has only been in recent years that any significant new developments have been obtained. This has been mainly through efforts of the German experiments during World War II and Army and Navy
developments since World War II.

In this regard imho the effects in IL-2/FB are based on the authors creativity, but then again it´s just a game, though a bit more realistic effects won´t hurt it.

============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 02:02 AM
Just a quick word about muzzle flashes in photographs:

I was a military photographer for about ten years. In the dozens of excercises I documented, I probably snapped several hundred pictures of riflemen or machine gunners firing automatic weapons where I was sure there would be a dramatic muzzle flash in the final print or slide; however, only rarely would I even see a hint of fire or flame in the image when I'd examine the finished product. That's just the way it is.

Video or motion picture cameras are more likely to capture the muzzle flashes the way a human eye sees them.



http://www.battlefield.ru/gallery/ww2_tanks/t35_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 02:43 AM
And digging on.

First findings were german larger cannon, which used a diglycol based propellant (as nitroglycerine for the hexapenta based propellants was in short supply), and it is noted for having "less pronounced" muzzle flash, lower burn temperature and reduced barrel wear. This goes for 30mm upwards ammo.

British guns used cordite based propellants, which produced huge muzzle flashes - but they also had, with the exception of the Mosquito, no centerline-mounted weaponry.

The point being, YES there are muzzle flashes on german rifle caliber/20mm/30mm shells BUT they most certainly didn`t totally obstruct the sight picture as in FB, or last for half a second per 30mm shell, especially on an aircraft doing 400kmh or more.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 02:58 AM
"Smokeless" gunpowder has been around since 1903 during the Spanish-American War, in which it was a major advantage for the Spanish compared to the Wincester rifle most of the doughboys where equipped with.

Alot of military ammunition today dates from WW2, every box of .50 Ball rounds I've seen/purchased for a M2 or M13 (pre auto ban days where great /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) are date stamped 1944-48.

Having fired a 1944 M2 and a 1942 M13 With WW2 era ammunition and comparing the flash to what is in game its quite obvious it is overdone. What is also quite obvious is that Oleg has said many times this will not change, so various aircraft will be and will always be handicapped by it in IL2/FB.

For Oleg to do it justice would take an analization for so many factors and end up with a specific muzzle flash or lack of for each plane and each armament package.

A ton of things add up to determine muzzle flash.

1. barrel length
2. powder load
3. barrel design (gas ports, muzzle brakes)
4. Weapon placement
5. Airstream
6. Airspeed
7. Ammunition type

And thats just the stuff I can list of the top of my head.

BfHeFwMe wrote:
-
- Alpirsbacher wrote:
-- I fired various weapons in my life - the 7.62 MG3 is
-- comparable to MG17/81s and it produces no visible
-- muzzle flash in daylight, small yellow /transparent/
-- specks at night. The Mauser BK20 - 20mm vehicle
-- cannon - produces a smallish flash.
--
-- Things comparable to a 5 metres long, 2 metres
-- diameter, totally obscuring the sight picture,
-- muzzle flash of the Mk 108 in FB I ever saw were
-- 120mm Leopard II cannon or 120mm infantry mortars
-- fired at night. And those flashes don`t last as lonk
-- as the FB Mk 108 blast.
--
-- I thought this sim strifed for realism. If so, there
-- should be a setting to switch the muzzle flashes
-- from B-Picture crap to realistic.
--
--
-
- You can't compare modern smokeless powders to the
- propellants used back than. Many nations weren't
- even using powder, but things such as cordite.
- Sorry, but appels and oranges.
-
-
-
-



http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:50 AM
That is one ugly cat

-Hareball

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We should have all the generalizing extremists taken out and shot.
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