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KraljMatjaz
03-31-2005, 04:58 AM
Hi all

I am relatively new to this sim and I find it very very good. In most cases it covers with historical data and performance charts well, I respect that very much.

Nevertheless I noticed that guns are not spontaneously jamming. They should, especially ones with high ROF and a lot of ammo. Further more, Japanese requirements for AC constructors were for the pilot to be able to reach cowling machineguns with hands and to be able to unjam them in case of jamming... IMO this is a big proof that gunjamming was serious problem in WW2, now in game we have jamming only due to damage.

Sorry if there have already been topics with similar matter.

KraljMatjaz
03-31-2005, 04:58 AM
Hi all

I am relatively new to this sim and I find it very very good. In most cases it covers with historical data and performance charts well, I respect that very much.

Nevertheless I noticed that guns are not spontaneously jamming. They should, especially ones with high ROF and a lot of ammo. Further more, Japanese requirements for AC constructors were for the pilot to be able to reach cowling machineguns with hands and to be able to unjam them in case of jamming... IMO this is a big proof that gunjamming was serious problem in WW2, now in game we have jamming only due to damage.

Sorry if there have already been topics with similar matter.

VW-IceFire
03-31-2005, 06:51 AM
Yep...its well known. Guns can also jam under high G load conditions. But that doesn't happen in this sim. Only so much CPU power to go around no doubt.

The next gen of sims that they are working on probably has this feature.

Blackdog5555
03-31-2005, 09:58 AM
Its not CPU power. It was implemented in RBI. Random mechanicals is just not part of the sim. I would like to see bolts moving, smoke and sparks, jamming and unjamming, manual charging and hydr- charging the guns. Oleg just didnt want to code it.

Fennec_P
03-31-2005, 06:35 PM
Also keep in mind this feature would be impossible to impliment properly.

Guns jam for a variety of reasons that differ, not only from gun to gun, but also from plane to plane. To do it realistically would be time consuming, and probably impossible.

And that's asssuming there is historical data concerning gun jam rates and causes, which there probably isn't.

KraljMatjaz
04-01-2005, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Also keep in mind this feature would be impossible to impliment properly.

Guns jam for a variety of reasons that differ, not only from gun to gun, but also from plane to plane. To do it realistically would be time consuming, and probably impossible.

And that's asssuming there is historical data concerning gun jam rates and causes, which there probably isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with that, but nevertheless, MANY things are just an assumption in this sim, without any sources... We even have flyables in this sim that never flew!

Guns jammed a lot in ww2, this is a fact. Even puting random function, which would depend on ROF (and maybe on g - it increased probability of jamming greatly if fired under high G) would be more "realistic" as it is now... For example, ON AVERAGE light mgs jam on every 500 bullets fired, heavy at 1000, 20mm and 30mm at 1200 shells fired...

so (example for HMG):
p - probability, a - parameter

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
1: begin
p:=0.001*G;
a:=random[0,1];
if a&lt;p then gunjam;
else goto 1;
end;
</pre>

One can now imagine, how he comes to enemy's tail and dissapointedly realises his cannon is jammed. Bun one should know, that everybody is just as much a hunted as a hunter, so on average should save you as many times as save somebody from you...

jeroen-79
04-02-2005, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KraljMatjaz:
p - probability, a - parameter
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">1: begin
p:=0.001*G;
a:=random[0,1];
if a&lt;p then gunjam;
else goto 1;
end;</pre> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If this method were used then I want my guns mounted upside down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Better would be to use the absolute difference between the actual G and the optimal G.

From a programming point of view, using a goto at the end would keep the procedure looping until the gun jammed, which would occur pretty quickly on a fast machine.

Aside from these nitpicks some method based on probability would be good, but we would need to have good reference data or face major whining.

Yimmy
04-03-2005, 07:05 AM
I would like to see gun jams, it would add greatly to the immersion of it all in my opinion.

Tsoman
04-03-2005, 10:36 AM
that sounds like a novelty that would be interesting for 2 minutes... then annoying

Atomic_Marten
04-03-2005, 02:37 PM
IMO would be interesting, but wouldn't benefit players in advantage. And like Tsoman says, would be IMO interesting for 2 mins, then annoying.

tigertalon
04-04-2005, 01:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tsoman:
that sounds like a novelty that would be interesting for 2 minutes... then annoying <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm

I am quite sure engine overheat would also be called annoying by some people... but that's the way it was, engines overheated. Same with gun jams.

It would be nice if it would be added in "difficulty settings" to turn on or off.

S.taibanzai
04-04-2005, 03:47 AM
Yep you got my vote on this

Gunjam most be a option ON/OF button

masaker2005
04-04-2005, 11:05 AM
KraljMatjaz are you from Slovenia?

Gato__Loco
04-04-2005, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And that's asssuming there is historical data concerning gun jam rates and causes, which there probably isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, guns that work perfectly without jamming are less 'historically accurate' that guns that have the wrong jamming rate.
I€d like to see the occasional engine, gun or landing gear failure (of course, as an option that could be turned off). It adds to the immersion, and it makes for some extra excitement. Imagine€¦ having your guns jammed in the middle of a nasty dogfight and trying to escape and survive, or coming home after a long mission and finding out that the landing gear is stuck. Hopefully we€ll see this in BOB.

Bearcat99
04-06-2005, 04:12 PM
A line in the config file for random malfunctions with say 3 settings... 0-2 with 0 being off, 1 being less than historical and 2 being historical.. although I personally would like to see it below the historical rate..... someone would have to do all the research though... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.... to see it at all would be a nice added touch IMO to an already stellar sim.

KraljMatjaz
04-06-2005, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by masaker2005:
KraljMatjaz are you from Slovenia? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ja, masaker. Ti?

Atomic_Marten
04-06-2005, 06:28 PM
I think that no one is against the idea in theory. But the real problem is: how to do that?

For sure some guns are going to be 'prone' to jamming some are going to be more resilient to that, and I bet that we are going to have flaming argues about that on the forums.

Then again, I have saw flaming wars on forum about much less influential things regarding this game.

M-o-a-b
04-06-2005, 08:27 PM
the beutiful thing about gun jams would be that it would even out the MG vs cannon fight.

if your in a P-47 and two guns jam, (shrug)

if it happens in a 109, time to start crying,

and if one of your cannons on your Spit or 190 jams,
good luck aiming after that first shot.

It should be rare, but it would be nice to see a 108 jam every now and then, but I'm probably just bitter.

masaker2005
04-07-2005, 05:44 AM
Ja KraljMatjaz sem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

F16_Sulan
04-07-2005, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Also keep in mind this feature would be impossible to impliment properly.

Guns jam for a variety of reasons that differ, not only from gun to gun, but also from plane to plane. To do it realistically would be time consuming, and probably impossible.


And that's asssuming there is historical data concerning gun jam rates and causes, which there probably isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you are right, and if it´s a feature that would have to be on all planes if implemented.
But I think it would be cool to have anyway, happening in high-G/sustained fire or whatever caused it.

So long as:
*It does´nt happen very often (the chance of it though would add immersion IMO).
*No planes are favoured or unbalanced regarding this.
If it does´nt happen often it does´nt have to be totally historically supported, it would still be more realistic than having it not happen at all.

FinnBird
04-07-2005, 12:47 PM
A very interesting idea!

I quess many of you may have read Saburo Sakai's memoirs?

Remember how he cursed the rookie pilots - about shooting too long bursts and burning the gun barrels.

Gun jams relating to weapon overheating could be interesting. Maybe not too difficult to model? Just add some heat per everyshot and have a random jamming % above certain heating level.

This would force us to shoot accurate and short bursts! Shooting a bomber would be still bigger a challenge.

About G-forces and jamming - that could be sure intersting - but would that affect the drum-feeded weapons - or just belt-feeded?

Btw, I'd like to see more smoke from the guns, even from the MG's. I recall reading about bomber gunners , faces black from the cordite fumes, coughing like chainsmokers. Extra fumes from the barrles could be cool to see!

Well, just my $0.02

Atomic_Marten
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
Well FinnBird, that would also be interesting (gun overheat/jam). Imagine message: <span class="ev_code_BLUE">Machine Gun: Inoperable</span>.. lol http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/images/smiles/wallbash.gif

However it would hit 7,62 and 12,7mm guns the most since they are fired in somewhat longer bursts than cannons.

Aaron_GT
04-12-2005, 04:11 PM
To fully model gun jams you'd need to take account of barrel temperature and cooling between bursts as this had a big effect on jamming.

If you really wanted to go to town (in BoB perhaps) then things such as underloading ammunition bays might affect the chances of jamming in some planes, as would electrical assist in some (P51B). In some planes there is a chance of the pilot or other crewmember clearing some jams, so it might then make sense to model misfires and jams separately.

Fehler
04-12-2005, 11:31 PM
I want butter and toast with my jams...

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Mine%20Rounds.jpg

Tallyho1961
04-13-2005, 07:11 AM
I'd like to see the offline AI subject to gun jams. Those 30 second bursts of machine gun fire get on my nerves.