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Wildnoob
12-25-2008, 10:52 AM
hello!

I play IL2 for two and half years, but at about a year ago I started to show much interess in fly like real pilot's, at a constant altitude for save fuel in long range missions and in formation amon other basic fligth procedures.

I already know how to maintein a constant altitude but just while holding the stick. some people had tell me when I ask about fly with the variometer neutral that shoukd not be possible to do this. but I never give up are are managing to do this now. but now I want fly with hands off, witch is another basic fligth procedure.

I don't know wat happen, because yesterday I manage to fly hands off with the variometer marked 0 but today simply I couldn't do this anymore. looks like that a bite of elevator trim is necessary to set it neutral completly, but this bite is not possible because or keep too much and the plane start to climb again and vice versa.

if possible anyone to help me I would like to know witch tricks do you guys use for hands off fligth ?

rnzoli
12-25-2008, 11:01 AM
I heard from real pilots this is pretty hard to achive in a sim, because the most important clue, the stick force, is missing from the sim (not just IL-2, but all sims suffer from this).

They say in real life, you put your stick where you want (e.g., middle), and turn the trim wheels to reduce the stick force to zero (at your current speed).

In the PC sims, you just simply cannot follow this, so it takes much longer time and patience to trim your airplane. Especially that there seems to be a trim delay in IL-2.

So my advice:
- use elevator trim
- slowly, in small adjustments!
- until you have your vario around 0
- then correct your altitude with the stick (if you were climbing/decending too much during your trim adjustments).

Wildnoob
12-25-2008, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
I heard from real pilots this is pretty hard to achive in a sim

I always know that there was something wrong with IL2. so wat I most belived that was the reason for so much difficult to maintein a constant altitude in IL2 is in fact the own fligth sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

thank you very much for your tips and for this precios pilot report in comparison rnzoli!

by the way, if someone could answer me, SOW will have this trim delay as well ?

Pyrres
12-25-2008, 01:16 PM
Get yourself a force feedback joystick and you get a bit advantage over those who dont have one. You can ride the stall better by feel, you can trim easier because you can feel the stick forces. Only let down is that gunshakes and some other effects make it harder to aim, but you can get rid of those if you want.

Wildnoob
12-25-2008, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Pyrres:
Get yourself a force feedback joystick and you get a bit advantage over those who dont have one. You can ride the stall better by feel, you can trim easier because you can feel the stick forces. Only let down is that gunshakes and some other effects make it harder to aim, but you can get rid of those if you want.

thank you very much for your sugestion Pyrres!

Wildnoob
12-25-2008, 03:24 PM
folks, please, witch FFB joystick can you guys recommend for me ?

I'm searching for a product with good useful life similary to the X52.

K_Freddie
12-25-2008, 03:26 PM
X52 because of it's contactless X/Y sensors (they're magnetic).. I don't think CH even dothis type of sensing - therefore limited lifespan http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

FoolTrottel
12-25-2008, 04:21 PM
folks, please, witch FFB joystick can you guys recommend for me ?
Guillemot Force Feedback Joystick.

Big, and heavy.
Very rare.
You can only get it by stumblin' upon it second hand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/GuillemotFFB.jpg


Best thing about the stick are its big motors (the force) and the way the motors transfer the forces to the stick: by rubber belts. Can't beat that...
Having the stick force change while airspeed changes is a brilliant feeling: no forces at take off, heavy forces when speeding and trying to pull out of a dive....

I'm using the one I got first, four years ago. It's still going strong.
And I got two spares, and a third incomplete spare (missing the grip, as I transferred it to an MS FFB2 for a forum member here, he sent me the two Guillemots in return http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/MSGuillemot.jpg

As for hands-off flight... try and get rotaries/sliders to assign trim to, much better than keyboard.

Good Luck!

BTW, please realize that having a force feedback stick will not enable you to do the RL things that rnzoli described, as that is simply not modeled in the sim.

Wildnoob
12-25-2008, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">folks, please, witch FFB joystick can you guys recommend for me ?
Guillemot Force Feedback Joystick.

Big, and heavy.
Very rare.
You can only get it by stumblin' upon it second hand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/GuillemotFFB.jpg


Best thing about the stick are its big motors (the force) and the way the motors transfer the forces to the stick: by rubber belts. Can't beat that...
Having the stick force change while airspeed changes is a brilliant feeling: no forces at take off, heavy forces when speeding and trying to pull out of a dive....

I'm using the one I got first, four years ago. It's still going strong.
And I got two spares, and a third incomplete spare (missing the grip, as I transferred it to an MS FFB2 for a forum member here, he sent me the two Guillemots in return http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/MSGuillemot.jpg

As for hands-off flight... try and get rotaries/sliders to assign trim to, much better than keyboard.

Good Luck!

BTW, please realize that having a force feedback stick will not enable you to do the RL things that rnzoli described, as that is simply not modeled in the sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much FT!

I also would like to apologize for my poor english.

I'm glad to find so much dedicated people to help like we have here. so, thanks, really thanks for everybody! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

julian265
12-25-2008, 04:41 PM
I was trying to go hands off once on a campaign mission, before I had knobs for my trim. Elevator trim was too coarse, one click up and I'd rise, one click down and I'd sink. So made a minor adjustment to the throttle, and it worked. Throttle up for a higher nose, obviously slowly and in small increments.

Tully__
12-26-2008, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
I heard from real pilots this is pretty hard to achive in a sim

I always know that there was something wrong with IL2. so wat I most belived that was the reason for so much difficult to maintein a constant altitude in IL2 is in fact the own fligth sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

thank you very much for your tips and for this precios pilot report in comparison rnzoli!

by the way, if someone could answer me, SOW will have this trim delay as well ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Even in real aircraft you will only maintain level for a few minutes before having to retrim. As the aircraft burns fuel its weight goes down and it will begin to climb. In very high performance aircraft this happens so quickly that they may not even bother retrimming. The standard flight profile for the SR-71 Blackbird involves climbing to cruise altitude (somewhere around 70,000 feet??) after refuel, trimming for level then just leaving it alone until the next refuel. They lose so much weight that by the time they're ready for the next top up they've gained 15,000+ feet.

Wildnoob
12-26-2008, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
Even in real aircraft you will only maintain level for a few minutes before having to retrim. As the aircraft burns fuel its weight goes down and it will begin to climb.

in fact the less or more fuel load affect the performance of the airplanes in IL2. thefore it's logic that less fuel means an improve in all characteristics of the aircraft. I just don't know if trim is affected like you sayied. but you are rigth about the plane's need trim adjustment after a few minutes. and thanks for the comparasion info about the SR-71!

rnzoli
12-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
BTW, please realize that having a force feedback stick will not enable you to do the RL things that rnzoli described, as that is simply not modeled in the sim. Yes, while FFB is a really great feature (I love it), it is still far too weak and un-precise in it's currect form.
Maybe with the next generation of flight sims and controllers, this will improve http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rnzoli
12-26-2008, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
the comparasion info about the SR-71! Perhaps it's a bit unfair to use SR-71 in this context, as those wonderful aircraft rarely ever fly in formation, and never have to bother with altitude corridors as they fly way above them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wildnoob
12-26-2008, 11:03 AM
I also know that is not accurate modeled like in real life, but are features that are in the sim. thougth the plane started to have tendency to climb by burning fuel and becoming more ligth I really don't know if is modeled.

I gonna make some trials and later gonna post wat I found.

ace1328fw190
12-26-2008, 11:31 AM
its not modelledas in RL but a example with less fuel vs more is to put a zeke with 100% fuel and "feel how it 90 degree turns and then with 25% fuel and it just snaps around like nothing...it also accels a bit better due to it being lighter

Stingray333
12-26-2008, 02:25 PM
I have zero problems trimming for hands off flight with my X-52 pro or the keyboard, I don't think there is anything wrong with this sim in that regard