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WilhelmSchulz.
01-03-2008, 01:41 PM
I was on line in the suppermarket and saw a Time magizine named Putin person of the year. Evean he said he prefers stability over freedom. He will be handing over the presidency but will be takeing the seat of the Prime Minister. Hmmmmmm. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Celeon999
01-04-2008, 12:13 PM
Betrayal Wilhelm !

I smell betrayal http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LINK (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hg_l6B45eU4mL-QJwBVzrUSQTaUwD8TGRBHO0)

MarkSynthesis
01-04-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by WilhelmSchulz.:
He will be handing over the presidency but will be takeing the seat of the Prime Minister. Hmmmmmm. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

For better or worse, three-fourths of Russians agree with him (and the remaining quarter are being excluded from politics one way or another).

It was a good choice--good or bad, he's definitely a pivotal figure in the world today. He'll probably be influencing the world for years to come.

Kaleun1961
01-09-2008, 11:45 AM
Some of our younger members are not old enough to remember when Ayatollah Khomeini was Time's Man of the Year. That caused quite a stir, but I agreed with their decision. Not saying it applies to people here, but some folks get upset over such decisions, losing sight of the fact that the Man of the Year doesn't have to be a good person, he [or she] just has to be a news maker.

I am quite interested in Putin and Russia in general. I see in Putin and his attempts to rebuild the former Soviet Union in Imperial form as the beginning of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy with respect to Russia's role in latter day events. If you are into biblical prophecy, I recommend reading "Epicenter: Why the Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future" by Joel C. Rosenberg.

The Russians have always been masters of "maskirovka." We are foolish to think them weak or decrepit. I am confident that they will rise again to world superpower status and challenge the current balance of power.

Celeon999
01-09-2008, 12:40 PM
I see in Putin and his attempts to rebuild the former Soviet Union in Imperial form as the beginning of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy with respect to Russia's role in latter day events.


Great power yes. Superpower, nope.

That train has left the station in 1991.

The russian federation has not even nearly the industrial capacity, manpower or options that the Soviet Union had.

The main points of Putin's policy is to regain political influence which Russia almost lost completely due to the break up of the SU.

Russia had veto power in the UN. Thats about all they had from 1991 onwards up to today. Military influence ? Nuclear deterrent. That was all.

A nuclear deterrent is worth nothing in a active foreign policy.

And what were the results ? Loss of political influence in their neighbour states, expansion of the NATO into their traditional area of influence.

Offensive NATO operations right in their backyard and against a traditional friend (Serbia) with Russia having no options to actively intervene into the political process that lead to Nato attack (Break up of Yugoslavia)


Needless to say that the average russian never felt so powerless , unrespected , unsatisfied than in the last 15 years of political and economic recession.

That thing in Chechnya, instability across the whole middle east, china's recent rise and spreading influence into Russia's backyard are other factors which give Putin headaches.


Comes a bit near to the situation in Germany after WW1 but not exactly that worse.

Logically that Putin and others were and are searching for ways out of this. Regaining political stability, influence, and also respect on the political landscape.

At the moment, Russia does not even has as much political influence as Germany for instance.

Even without having no permanent seat in the UN security council but maybe having one in the not so far away future. Thats really frustrating for them.

Which is just normal and understandable.


The only thing i just dont understand at the moment is Putin's political approach to Ukraine.

With this recent harrassing, he only strenghtens the pro west parties there, driving the country into the open arms of the EU.

It would be much wiser to seek compromise with them. There are other ways to solving problems regarding unpaid gas and oil bills.

Kaleun1961
01-09-2008, 01:54 PM
I agree with your analysis, Celeon, and it is exactly that helpless and weak feeling that Putin is trying to reverse, and in doing so one of his strategies is to regain at least the better bits of the former Soviet Union. Russia is weak today, or appears to be so, but let us not forget that Russia has been in this situation in the past and recovered, as more than one invader would testify. Putin obviously doesn't think the situation beyond hope; he is in it for the long haul, his current presidential term notwithstanding. I think he is also taking a leaf from the American playbook and is taking the first steps to build a coalition of his own, with Iran the first ally he is courting.

Celeon999
01-09-2008, 02:25 PM
The relationship of Iran and Russia is what we germans call a "Zweck-Freundschaft"

Dont know that the english word for this is...

You know, a purpose-friendship. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

At the moment, Iran is the only one in the middle-east who is effectivly countering u.s interests there. Thats a good thing from Putin's point of view as this aspect of the Mullah rule is advantageous for his foreign policy interests.

From the russian perspective the USA has expanded its foreign interests much too far eastwards. (Thats also why he is so pissed about that missile shield)

Russia would like a stable middle-east too , but it does not favour a stable middle-east with u.s influence over a unstable one with no influence. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Remember that the Mullah regime in Iran stands with their religious brothers and sisters in Chechnya whereever they can do this unseen.

So the same people Russia is building a nuclear reactor for and is selling aircraft and AA missiles to, dont shed a tear for russian soldiers or school children getting killed by self-declared holy warriors. Yes maybe even supporting them with weapons and money.

If the USA would not had invaded Iraq, and the nuclear standoff with Iran would never reached this importance : No missiles, no aircraft, no nuclear reactor without cash. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


As strange as it might sound, this "friendship" is kept alive by u.s troops in iraq. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Believe me the russians would prefer to shake hands with someone else but there are no alternatives http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

When they leave one day, this relationship will fade faster than a marriage of Pamela Anderson http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MarkSynthesis
01-09-2008, 03:50 PM
What interests me is Putin's--and his predecessors'--choice to define the identity of the Russian Federation in czarist/Romanov terms: the old double-headed eagle, the sacred of the Orthodox symbolism, etc. I guess I expected that, in time, that Russia would develop new identity, rather than something with such heavy Czarist tones.

I guess it's just a matter of symbols, but you have to admit, it's interesting to see the connections made. The church is just as much in bed with the Russian government as Putin's supporters are.

The only people who don't seem to be onboard completely are the armed forces--perhaps since no one, not even the oldest veterans, remember the last acual Czarist military victory.

In any case, it's an odd juxtaposition of elements. I know there was something of a return in West Germany to certain elements of the Kaiser, but this seems far more abrupt--if the Romanovs were still around in any serious number, I wonder if Putin and company would try to restore the monarchy--for purely symbolic purposes, of course.

Foehammer-1
01-09-2008, 04:28 PM
This is exactly why i hate to stick my nose into politics. It's too much for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like to deal with distinct things, not schemes and plots of people trying to outsmart each other :S
And as long as Russia doesn't invade Ukraine, or only invades the northern part of it, i am fine...

Liddabit
01-10-2008, 02:25 AM
Why does he fear US presence in the mideast more than crazy twelvers?

Kaleun1961
01-10-2008, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Foehammer-1:
This is exactly why i hate to stick my nose into politics. It's too much for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like to deal with distinct things, not schemes and plots of people trying to outsmart each other :S
And as long as Russia doesn't invade Ukraine, or only invades the northern part of it, i am fine...

I guess you are not from northern Ukraine? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kaleun1961
01-10-2008, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by MarkSynthesis:
What interests me is Putin's--and his predecessors'--choice to define the identity of the Russian Federation in czarist/Romanov terms: the old double-headed eagle, the sacred of the Orthodox symbolism, etc. I guess I expected that, in time, that Russia would develop new identity, rather than something with such heavy Czarist tones.

I guess it's just a matter of symbols, but you have to admit, it's interesting to see the connections made. The church is just as much in bed with the Russian government as Putin's supporters are.

The only people who don't seem to be onboard completely are the armed forces--perhaps since no one, not even the oldest veterans, remember the last acual Czarist military victory.

In any case, it's an odd juxtaposition of elements. I know there was something of a return in West Germany to certain elements of the Kaiser, but this seems far more abrupt--if the Romanovs were still around in any serious number, I wonder if Putin and company would try to restore the monarchy--for purely symbolic purposes, of course.

Putin restoring Imperial symbology is entirely appropriate to Russian history. The era of communism is only a relatively short blip in the grand scheme of things. Russia has a long history of rule by monarchical/czar type rulers. Democracy is really not the form of government many Russians prefer, American desires notwithstanding.

As for the eagle symbology, that is entirely expected by keen students of bible prophecy. Not that I expect this sort of discussion to occur here, but the eagle aspect does not surprise me at all.

Foehammer-1
01-10-2008, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Foehammer-1:
This is exactly why i hate to stick my nose into politics. It's too much for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like to deal with distinct things, not schemes and plots of people trying to outsmart each other :S
And as long as Russia doesn't invade Ukraine, or only invades the northern part of it, i am fine...

I guess you are not from northern Ukraine? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed not. More of a south-east. Follow the arrows to the red cross:P

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Foehammer88/UkraineMap.jpg

Kaleun1961
01-10-2008, 04:04 PM
Zaporozhe? Well, that's how it was spelled on the map when I played "The Russian Campaign" with my brothers. Never been there myself, but ordered Army Group South to capture it many a time. It's interesting to see the names of cities spelled differently than how I have normally seen them, for example, "Kharkov" and "Kremenchug." But Kiev is still Kiev, I see.

Foehammer-1
01-10-2008, 06:56 PM
Zaporoje, zaporozhye, zaporozhe, zaporijjya, zaporizschya, heck, i don't even know what else. That name can be spelled a lot of ways with English letters. Only one way in Russian, and one in Ukrianian (switch "zhye" with "zschya"). Every single map I looked at, it is spelled differently. Lol.

On a side note, if you have GWX, is it listed there? I wonder how they spelled ithttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Celeon999
01-11-2008, 01:52 AM
I remember reading a Heer report about the capture of a town named Чорнобиль in Ukraine which they translated to "Tschornobyl" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

One of the examples where the people greeted them as liberators with flowers as it seems they suffered a lot under Stalin's collectivation campaign.

Later , in 1986 the town (now a big city) became world wide known as Chernobyl which equals the russian style of speaking the name out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Foehammer-1
01-11-2008, 01:14 PM
Yes indeed. Chornobyl' is the Ukrianian way to say it.

Speaking of which... A vague translation of that would be...

"Chorniy" is black or dark (both ukrianian and russian);
"byl'" has resemblance of Russian "being, existence, or past".

So.. Dark past. It's like foreshadowing of what was coming, when they named the place a while ago

Kaleun1961
01-11-2008, 01:21 PM
I still remember that "cherno" part from my school days, in geography studies. There is a type of fertile, black soil, known as chernozem, or something like that. It's been several decades since I left school.

Foehammer-1
01-11-2008, 02:22 PM
Kaleun, you are absolutely right. "Chernozem" indeed means literally "black soil" :P

Cause of all the humus in there. And yet, Ukraine is buying wheat in Canada and US... Makes no sense to me, people.

Kaleun1961
01-11-2008, 02:36 PM
It all comes down to management in the end, really. For example, Africa is a fertile continent, yet we are constantly hearing of famines. True, there are periods of drought, but for the most part, it is mismanagement of resources that results in starvation. And most of that is due to political sitations. Zimbabwe used to be a net food exporter, but that was under White rule. Since the blacks under Mugabe have taken over, that country is suffering terribly. And that is all down to politics.

Ukraine starved during the 20's, and that was entirely of Stalin's making. For political reasons, millions of people starved to death; the shortage of grain was from confiscation by Stalin's minions and the Ukrainians were left to fend for themselves.

Foehammer-1
01-12-2008, 02:37 PM
Ukraine starved during the 20's, and that was entirely of Stalin's making. For political reasons, millions of people starved to death; the shortage of grain was from confiscation by Stalin's minions and the Ukrainians were left to fend for themselves.
Indeed. My great-grandpa passed away about 10 years ago. But i remember the stories he told. Cause he lived during the communist-induced famine. Scary stuff. Not many people believe that people ate cats, mice, dead bodies, and when they ran out of those, they would boil acorns and tree bark....