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View Full Version : Online sales of add-on's for IL2 Series? POLL!!!



Gibbage1
12-17-2004, 06:23 PM

Gibbage1
12-17-2004, 06:23 PM

steiner562
12-17-2004, 06:30 PM
You have my vote for sure,have used steam here recently and I think its the way to go.

Rola.
12-17-2004, 06:42 PM
I remember discussing this subject with JanuszB when we were planning ahead our add-ons a year ago... (yes, the talks about "9/39 for BOB" have long story) We even mentioned this method in a letter for Oleg, assuming that this may be a workaround for UBI's "laziness" in publishing small-profit add-ons.

While distributing a complete, huge product solely via Internet may sound somewhat risky, such expansion packs for successful game are a different case. If other companies did that before (albeit sometimes on a small scale), why don't give it a go? I'd like to see those Russian-only add-ons with "Soviet X-Planes" on my PC. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

georgeo76
12-17-2004, 06:45 PM
I'd be willing to buy anything from 1C from anywhere. But I doubt UBI would be very happy about it. And as I recall, HL2 wasn't sold @ any kind of discount.

GSNei
12-17-2004, 06:50 PM
There are a number of companies that do pay downloads for the MFS/CFS franchise. Alphasim for instance, and you pay by the plane. It's seems possible

LeadSpitter_
12-17-2004, 06:53 PM
It would be a good idea, maybe have a indivdual code for each zip, hide a file with code in the pack and individually password each zip to prevent piracy.

No sense in wasting money on a box printing, cd mass production printing of cd cover etc for a small addon. Im sure for those 56kers who want the game. The community members in thier area can dl and copy to cd for them and mail it to them.

-HH- Beebop
12-17-2004, 06:55 PM
In additon to the online download, being able to get it on a CD online should be an option. Not something real fancy, say a 'slimline' case with a single paper insert with install instructions for those still on a dialup who would need to spend all night, maybe several nights downloading it. I remember when I had a dailup and it took me four trys and as many days to download the orginal demo.
For those of us with highspeed connections I say sure, do it as a download. Especially if we can get more maps, flyables, a Medeterrianian and a Burma Theatre.

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 07:03 PM
Although I voted - yes - ok - for the downloadable...
Online is only a small fraction of the buyers...
- so -
You can't realy do without a distributer...

LIKE US !

So you have to get a LOT of people organized in a LOT of countries - only then can you drop the UBI disaster

I'm volunteering :P

LW_Icarus
12-17-2004, 07:10 PM
I appear to be in the minority here, but...

I will pay more for a box and instruction book,and a piece of software I can re-install as necessary even if my machine is run over by a car, as long as my CDs are intact.

I also haven't easy means to pay for things online, and don't feel safe putting my financial information on the internet. call me paranoid.

I think a cheaper online download would be great for those of you who have it accessible, but you can't forget the guy with 56k modem, or no internet, or a "cash customer".

For something like Operation Barbarossa or Last days, its fine. I bought the CD for OB,but I could play fine without it. AEP is a new version, with new content. for someone not comfortable or able to shop online,that limits the lobby choices too far.

I would like to be able to get anything like AEP retail. I think piss-poor marketing is the biggest problem with sales as well, but thats another rant.

Bearcat99
12-17-2004, 07:32 PM
Yes.......once its on my HD I can make my backup... Actually it should be cheaper.... since the cost of distribution, packaging, etc would be non existent.

Gibbage1
12-17-2004, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
In additon to the online download, being able to get it on a CD online should be an option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Steam lets you make bacups of the software you download. You can burn that onto a CD if you want. Whats the differance other then the nice printing they put on the CD?

Gibbage1
12-17-2004, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MaxMhz:
Although I voted - yes - ok - for the downloadable...
Online is only a small fraction of the buyers...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That much is true, but things are shifting. #1, if you play IL2, then you know of it. #2, add-ons are only for people who know of the game. #3, there can still be print adds to gain peoples attention who dont play online or go online.

The tide is shifting. No longer is the bulk of the population ignorant too the ways of the internet. Its becomming more and more accepted as a marketplace for valid goods, not just porn. Amazon.com and Ebay is a good example of that.

It can work, and in fact MUST work if small nitch markets like flight sims are to survive. This I see as a turning point, and anti-piracy measures go hand-2-hand with online distrobution.

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 07:37 PM
Well - if push comes to shove

Think about it
Haveing people world-wide walking into shops: "Could I interest you..." distributing... with a world-wide premiere of a demo of BoB to offer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif what shop would say no ?
and on that demo ... a phone number/mail address...

I don't think there is a solution to piracy - it was there / will be there - I do believe we all want this game to stay and evolve - and therefore will pay for it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif sooner or later...

2 days later a cd-package drops on your mat...
after you payed lol

Gibbage1
12-17-2004, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Yes.......once its on my HD I can make my backup... Actually it should be cheaper.... since the cost of distribution, packaging, etc would be non existent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the hickup. Like I siad, flight sims like IL2 work off a slim profit margin. To make up for #1, low profit, #2, low distrobution they would need to keep the price at about the same. But with cutting the cost of distribution and packaging and stuff, at least we even get an option. Without that, we have no add-on. Thats were the value of online distribution is. Not in making it cheaper, sadly. That may come later once the distribution rate goes up from popularity.

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 07:52 PM
But it WOULD mean that 1C:Maddox has to let go of the controlled (till now) FM DM and 3dModels - which could imply letting go of the encryption process used so-far

I don't think it's going to happen...

AND I would very much like a reply from an official UBI source... (MODs don't count - sorry - Admins neither - allthough an admin answer would be appreciated)...

well? --echo!-- ellll

yeah thought so... UBI is incommunicato

GAU-8
12-17-2004, 07:55 PM
i wouldnt mind going the E- route, but i highly prefer physical CD. but if thats the way to go for future updates, ill dive in.

sithgod
12-17-2004, 08:00 PM
I think the downloads are a good idea. New campaigns, maybe new aircraft depending on how it could be down. A Polish campaign as an example i'd like to give a go. Of course it is easier to do with aircraft that are already flyable. But the more we have the more options there are.

As long as the content is good. I'll buy it

-HH- Beebop
12-17-2004, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
In additon to the online download, being able to get it on a CD online should be an option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Steam lets you make bacups of the software you download. You can burn that onto a CD if you want. Whats the differance other then the nice printing they put on the CD? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point I was making is that for the few that have 56K, being able to buy a "cheap" CD should be an option. Burning it to CD means having a burner that does a decent job. No flashy boxes, no multi-page booklets. That single-layer "installation sheet" could contain advertising to help offset cost. Admittedly this would be a small market.
I was just thinking about the "snail" connected and those that dislike giving info over the 'net.

(this idea is probably why I don't have a job in marketing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif)

Sig.Hirsch
12-17-2004, 08:11 PM
Yes , yes , yes ,'ill definetely buy it , if this can save money to the developpers and let this awesome flight sim live on , i'd not hesitate to buy it a single second http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x__CRASH__x
12-17-2004, 08:11 PM
I would buy a piece of sh|t wrapped up in a bow if Maddox sold me it! As long as he promised to do his best to correctly model the FM as it slid out my rosebud, and the DM right when it splattered on the floor, I would be all smiles!

bird_brain
12-17-2004, 08:19 PM
Having Add-ons as a pay upgrade seems viable to me. You would still have to have the original disc to run the game. I remember paying Flight1 software for add ons to CFS2 and all you got was a download with a key file you had to verify online. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
It will neither increase or decrease piracy as anyone who wants to share their discs and files with their friends will probably find a way anyhow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
If it would cut down on overhead and allow Oleg & crew enough profit to keep working, I am for it all the way. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bull_dog_
12-17-2004, 08:29 PM
Absolutly...distribution is just an expensive middle man and the internet and high speed cable is changing everything.

Maybe Oleg might develop a flyable Avenger, N, -4, black widow for the english speaking Russians and offer it over the internet wink wink ...I suspect that US copyright laws don't have much punch in Moscow

bird_brain
12-17-2004, 08:41 PM
You got that right... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 08:45 PM
They got hitmen though - is that better ?

LEXX_Luthor
12-17-2004, 08:54 PM
Gibbage...

~&gt; http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002274

Peter Fisla:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Any chance Oleg can sell add-ons as digital downloads for us outside of Russia ? The way I see it this is the distribution/publishing way for serious flight sims in the future. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ian Boys:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, this is against his distribution/publishing contract, I would guess. Ubi hold the entire non-FSU [..Former Soviet Union..] market. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oleg can't sell on internet, at least outside of non~FSU. We will have to order "Russian CD" from FSU, if that is even possible.

I am guessing this is because UBI does not want their game developers--any of them--to sell their games independently of UBI (but only in non~FSU markets in the case of Oleg and LOMAC). If that is the reason, maybe Oleg could re~negotiate to find UBI a cheaper distribution method for the West suitable for a small run of CDs, mainly for the western FanBoys (FB = FanBoy). Just a hope. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


Think --&gt; FanBoys don't need a manual, just a ReadMe File. FanBoys really don't need a box, just a CD in a blank white paper slip cover. If UBI could mail those out to us, and charge normal Addon price, what more could a FanBoy and Publisher ask for?

Also remember, Russian CD is for Merged FBP only, so this CD won't concern PF only purchasers.

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 09:00 PM
**** UBI

if that's it

I would buy direct from 1C
Europe - NL - OUT
no UBI is gonne keep me from trading !

Weather_Man
12-17-2004, 09:03 PM
I think the jist is to get UBI to make it available online to the west. It goes without saying Maddox can't go and do it themselves.

I'm just wondering, if single plane addons were made available, wouldn't that then make online play pretty fragmented? They wouldn't be compatible if you didn't have the same addons, would they? A complete addon package might be more attractive.

Oh, and I prefer CDs since I don't have plastic for various reasons. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

carguy_
12-17-2004, 09:06 PM
I would go for the 2nd option but the 1st is rational.We give`em money for making more stuff withouth additional cost.Sounds good.

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 09:07 PM
And hey stop this - I don't have a credit card nonsense...
Before purchase open a paypal acount
You need to send money to it localy.
Then it's on-line money http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And you can even support the community http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
like il2skins / warclouds / etc etc

Just don't pre-order from UBI and don't send any money to them.

GSNei
12-17-2004, 09:15 PM
UBI could do it themselves if they thought there was a profit to be had. Just because you have a "niche" market doesn't mean there isn't money to be made. HPS Simulations has been going strong making turnbased/hex computer wargames ever since John Tiller left Talonsoft. No retail outlet just mail order. Talk about a small audience - new titles all the time.

adlabs6
12-17-2004, 09:16 PM
In the era of checking account debit cards that work as VISA, getting a "credit card" is pretty simple.

What's harder is getting broadband access in all parts of the world. I'm in the USA, but there is no service here, and no plans for it either. Such is the price of living in a rural area.

That said, I can't complain about Steam or Valve, or Half Life 2. All have worked great for me so far, even on dialup. But, without the retail CD, I could not hoped to have downloaded HL2, or FB, or probably any other modern 1+GB game.

Still, the issue is moot if the IL2 line is tied up with UBI. If Oleg can't get back rights to distribute as he wants, then nothing will change. Sadly, if Oleg has signed BoB on with UBI, it'll probably be just the same there.

MR.Reah
12-17-2004, 09:51 PM
Big Whoop- one cd, one plastic jewel case, one simple label- rather small potatoes there.......
I vote against the 'on line download only' option for those reasons. Just cut the packaging down to minimum for add on then. Where's the beef? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

sithgod
12-17-2004, 10:00 PM
Weather_Man said: I'm just wondering, if single plane addons were made available, wouldn't that then make online play pretty fragmented? They wouldn't be compatible if you didn't have the same addons, would they? A complete addon package might be more attractive,]

Personally I like single plane add-ons. Providing you get more than just the plane. If they come with Dynamic campaigns for the offliners. Be compatible with onliners I don't think there would be a problem.

If any company can release stuff all over the place without any sort of quality control then I think there would be a big problem. If they have to meet the standards set down from Oleg and he might even want to have final say like he does now. If a company wanted to do a plane like the Meteor and Oleg felt it might unbalance online play or if it didn't meet the requirements he could say no.

Sure the one plane add-ons could be abused. But overall I think Oleg has been very fair and as long as they had to sign off on a product then I think it wouldn't unbalance or smeg things up to much.

There are so many planes people still want. Ones that people might buy but are not high on a overall popularity list. Like the Westland Whirlwind. I had a friend who was addicted to that plane. It probobly isn't one that's high on the to do list. But if its a download pack with skins and extras for a few bucks people might buy it.

Of course the 3rd party market could really help sales of the core products providing FB PF etc is available for new players to buy.

Only my 2c of course.

woofiedog
12-17-2004, 10:09 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Yes... if you can download to a disc when you pay for your order... or give us a choice of a disc if we want one at a extra cost.

hawkmeister
12-17-2004, 10:45 PM
I've bought alot of software online via electronic delivery. I actually prefer this to ordering a package that has to be shipped. It's quick, it's easy, and you get your jollies in the time it takes to download.

By all means - at least make it an option.

-Bill

csThor
12-17-2004, 11:10 PM
I'm on 56k Dialup so downloading would be a problem. There's a certain border I would not cross, but AFAIK customers on Dialup can already order patches on CD from UBI. It takes a little while (2 weeks or so I've heard) but UBI does it.

The problem I have is the payment methods. Here in Germany the use of credit cards is rather limited. I have one, but I refuse to use it for online payment. Here direct debiting is the prefered method - which is a definite problem factor on the german market. If a vendor is not able to provide such a payment option (meaning no credit card) he will see rather little interest in his goods. I can imagin there are similar promblems in other countries.

Capt_Kernel
12-17-2004, 11:24 PM
LOL, what a bunch of crapola. This guy must work for Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. Before voting, PLEASE READ!

The #1 reason (my educated guess) that Ubi is not planning on doing any small add-on's for IL2 series like Oleg mentioned, is profit. Flight sims are a small nitch and has a very tight profit margin. Add-on's are not very successfull and sometimes cost more then they bring in. Not a wise market choice.

One of the top cost's for a publisher such as Ubi Soft in releasing an Add-on is actually PUBLISHING the software. Printing not just the CD, but the contants of the box and the box itself can get very expensive depending on how elaborate it is. Somewere between 5-10$ per unit. When selling an addon for 20$, thats about half the price for the printing alone!

The BEST way around that is online sales AND distributing. That means something called "electronic delivery" and NOT shipping in the mail. Many of you may be familure with Valve's "Steam" software system and Half-Life 2. These systems, in the past, have gotten the "no go" from gamers since most of you want the CD and Box for some STRANGE reason, even though you use it once. Its human to want something physical to account for the loss of funds.

In order to progress, we must cast asside these human drawbacks. What I am saying is this. IF Ubi made a system so you can pay your 19.95 and DOWNLOAD the IL2 add-on's (Like Aces and the other that Oleg mentioned), would you be willing to use such a service?

Companies are paying millions to research firms to see if the gaming public is ready. Lets save them some money, and get us some add-on packs, and pay Oleg some cash. Tell THEM that your ready for this. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, Ubi will do it.

So cast your vote. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DONB3397
12-17-2004, 11:58 PM
If contracts and international agreements don't stand it the way, this seems like a workable deal. Microsoft and Adobe are already selling upgrades and addons for pay-online.

We've already had patches, and linked patches distributed on line. Why not paid add-ons?

Gibbage1
12-18-2004, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt_Kernel:
LOL, what a bunch of crapola. This guy must work for Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um... Well..... Kinda. Not officialy, but as a freelancer.

I thought of this idea because I am sure Ubi's hesitation to doing add-on's is the cost of printing and distro. Also, retail shelf space cost's $$. Yes, its true! You must rent shelf space at EB and GameStop and other places. Like I said, profit is minimul for Flight sims, let alone add-on's for flight sims. This way they can increase profits to make it more "worth while" for Ubi to do add-ons.

Its simple. The Add-on is going to be done with or without Ubi. Ubi does not need to invest a lot of money in this at all. But has the chance to earn money. Its a no brainer. But if they had to print boxes and CD's and give up VERY VALUABLE shelf space to something that wont earn much.... They wont.

Gib

Gibbage1
12-18-2004, 12:40 AM
P.S. Im not saying for Oleg to distribute it. Im saying for UBI to distribute it for Oleg as a download.

Fehler
12-18-2004, 01:47 AM
I recently purchased a software download from Sonic. I had to make the purchase in order to get the download. Instead of waiting days, I was up and running in a matter of minutes. Of course, I also had the option to have the CD's shipped to me at an extra cost, but really, what is the point?

This is the new wave of software purchasing, and really; if 1C doesnt get on the boat, they may be left behind.

Yes, it is a pain if you stuck with a dial-up connection, but then again, there is always the snail mail method that can be utilized.

Platypus_1.JaVA
12-18-2004, 04:03 AM
My impression is that UBI pays 1C:Maddox for developping the new sim BoB and NOT for developping new FREE patches and add-ons. So basically, UBI tells 1C:Maddox that they should stop the freeware stuff and concentrate there efforts on stuff they can make money with. I think that is fair. If you are paying someone for a certain job, you don't want him to spend that money for other stuff.

And of course, there is that issue of the copyright but, I didn't think that was the only problem.

GerritJ9
12-18-2004, 07:21 AM
Sending CDs by snail mail shouldn't be a problem- Microsoft, for instance, sends Service Pack CDs without any problems whatsoever. They don't come in an expensive box but a jewel case doesn't cost the earth.
Paid-for add-ons are fine by me, whether downloadable or on CDs sent by mail. The free add-ons are great, but if I had to pay for them to get them I would happily do so- in terms of $$$ per hour of fun, this SIM is worth every penny and then some.

GerritJ9
12-18-2004, 07:25 AM
It may be of interest to note that the Russian versions are sold in a normal CD jewel case rather than the big black plastic box I bought the UBI versions in. There might be some savings possible for UBI here, but I doubt if there is much of a price difference, especially when bought in bulk- certainly nowhere near $10.00 per case.

t0n.
12-18-2004, 09:01 AM
It just makes sense for UBI and 1C to make these Russian expansions available to the West. We're all going to get them anyway, so why not put us in a position where we're able to pay for them?

DuxCorvan
12-18-2004, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by t0n.:
It just makes sense for UBI and 1C to make these Russian expansions available to the West. We're all going to get them anyway... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? That sounds a little weird, t0n. However, I doubt them to be compatible with Western versions... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_14_3.gif

I'm afraid we're gonna miss Pe-2 and Il-10, among others... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

knightflyte
12-18-2004, 11:31 AM
My only drawback..... and it stems from a lack of understanding the process.... would be if I uninstall or reformatt my drives, what would be the installation process. I'd not really like to go through the whole reregistering process. I understand if i HAVE to, and will gladly do it. I'm just curious.

I DON'T buy too many games. I've bought 3 this year. Two were 1C Maddox games. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The other was Prince of Persia. (Go figure)

Anyway I'll gladly download if it ensures future support. That would obviously mean comensurate payment for those who make and deliver this sim.

That's one thing that has always surprised me about 1C products. The length of support without the purchasers payment. That kind of committment gets my thanks AND my dollar.

Gibbage1
12-18-2004, 02:38 PM
Well thats the benifit too online delivery. Once you register, pay, and download, your name is saved as the owner of a valid copy. LAter on if you have a system crasy or new system, just log in with your user name and download it again! You cant loose a CD and most places have a verification system in case you loose your password.