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XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:35 PM
Hey guys, just flown the p39 n1 and kicked ***. If your not getting much success with it heres what i do. Keep shooting them with your mg's then, with your main cannon they go boom!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The p39 is also a leathal hurricane killer. the hardest part is probably getting out of a stall and taking off!

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:35 PM
Hey guys, just flown the p39 n1 and kicked ***. If your not getting much success with it heres what i do. Keep shooting them with your mg's then, with your main cannon they go boom!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The p39 is also a leathal hurricane killer. the hardest part is probably getting out of a stall and taking off!

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:40 PM
You figured this all out in 16 minutes. (difference between your last post, and this one)?

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:41 PM
Allready know that. Taking off and landings are all pretty easy for me, and you can avoid most stalls if flying carefuly on the edge, but I am still getting hard time when flying P-39Q1 against veteran Bf-109K4. No other plane is causing me headaches, but this one really is.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:43 PM
now let's make it interesting, and try to shoot down people with one hit from the cannon, WITHOUT using your MGs.

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:43 PM
To bring up the point about leading with MGs then hitting with the cannons, this really shouldn't be as easy as it sounds unless you are at a VERY close range. The trajectory of the MG rounds and the 37mm cannon rounds are quite different, with quite a bit more drop in the cannon rounds. At distance, you should almost have to "lob" them in. I do not know if FB has the cannon round drop modeled. Maybe someone in the know can say if they do or not.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:45 PM
Im a devoted P39 flyer since the days of IL2. The K4 is suppossed to be a pain in the butt. Its the Porche vs Camaro story all over again. Dont try to outclimb them but you can outlast em. Fly the K4 yourself and you will be able to exploit its weaknesses. Or die trying lol

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:50 PM
The FM of p-39 must be screwed up in FB. In IL2, a p-39 is no problem. Just in real life, a well flown k-4 should kill a p-39 every time. Hope oleg fixes this in the patch

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XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:53 PM
I don't even bother with the mgs The cannon is the killer. I put all the guns on the trigger, and wait until i'm very close. I fire one shot at a time. Poof! One shot, one plane. Lots of ammo this way.

As for taking off. Trike gear. What could be easier? As for stalling? there is no stall in FB, and the patch didn't add one either. The La7 stalls easier in the patch, and it has almost no stall.

P-39 = Very easy plane to fly, and get kills with. It also climbs as good as a La7/Yak3. Kind of uber? You bet it is../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 07:40 PM
BuzzU wrote:

P-39 = Very easy plane to fly, and get kills with. It also climbs as good as a La7/Yak3. Kind of uber? You bet it is..



I agree...I liked it more back in Il2 when it was twitchier and stalled often... and more or less presented a challenge....i miss my ol bird /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Steaks
375th FS

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 07:56 PM
In the patch beta it is even more overmodeled. It can actually outclimb a Bf 109K4.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 09:13 PM
Maj_Death wrote:
- In the patch beta it is even more overmodeled. It
- can actually outclimb a Bf 109K4.

You gotta be kidding! Thats total bush!! The P-39 was a second rate aircraft in all theatres of war. It should be modeled as such

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/pics/g50bis_2.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 09:31 PM
YOu looking for Killa? Here I am, but I am the P39 killa, not P39 the killa/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I like the P39 because that rear engine makes it nice and easy to start burning. One good burst from my 190 will send one smoking back home.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 10:42 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- You gotta be kidding! Thats total bush!! The P-39
- was a second rate aircraft in all theatres of war.
- It should be modeled as such


I'm not kidding. In Beta 08 the P-39Q10 soundly outclimbs all. In reality it was one of the worst climbing planes for its time period, but hey, this is FB not reality. Hopefully that issue gets fixed in the release version. But since there is always atleast 1 UFO in every version of IL2/FB it will probebly remain.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 10:46 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I don't even bother with the mgs The cannon is the
- killer. I put all the guns on the trigger, and wait
- until i'm very close. I fire one shot at a time.
- Poof! One shot, one plane. Lots of ammo this way.
-
- As for taking off. Trike gear. What could be
- easier? As for stalling? there is no stall in FB,
- and the patch didn't add one either. The La7 stalls
- easier in the patch, and it has almost no stall.
-
-
- P-39 = Very easy plane to fly, and get kills with.
- It also climbs as good as a La7/Yak3. Kind of uber?
- You bet it is../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
- Da Buzz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-
- <center>
<img
- src="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3
- .jpg">
-

well the propellers hit the dirt then become inoperable!


http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG
We have whiners about the patch, then whiners whining about the whiners about the patch.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 10:47 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- You figured this all out in 16 minutes. (difference
- between your last post, and this one)?
-
- Da Buzz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-
- <center>
<img
- src="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3
- .jpg">
-

is there a way to ben people from your posts?

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG
We have whiners about the patch, then whiners whining about the whiners about the patch.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 10:49 PM
There's no way for you to ben me anywhere../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 11:07 PM
i want the version thats in my sig

even tho it never when into production

----------------------------------------

http://www.microworks.net/pacific/aviation/xfl-1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:31 AM
God they better fix it, it's a glaring problem depending on your sources, the approx figures are below:


P39Q rate of climb is listed around 2500 feet/min

109k4 is listed at about 3936 feet/min

Now I don't know if the P39Q10 was lighter or had a different engine, but I doubt it should be able to outclimb a 109K4, or even a f of g for that matter.

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:41 AM
I'm not sure where MD got that from. The Q-10 in the patch will climb with a Yak3, and not a K4. The K4 blows away the Yak3.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 02:21 AM
Spiral climb or regular? I was using a standard spiral climb and it stuck with me with ease.

----------------------------------------
<center>I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 03:14 AM
just keep the speed up and it wont let you down

(wish i could say the same for P-40, jeesh its a P-40...supposed to be better RIGHT? but nooo the P-39 is better than the P-40...whats this world coming to. the 39 better than the 40. and some say the P-38 is even better ( i agree) than the P-39.)

alright im done with my speach for the day. man thats alot of work /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Death is only the beginning

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 03:33 AM
P-39 should be better than P40. P40 was not very modern at the start of the war, P39 was a very good plane in the correct role.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--



"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--



"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--



"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--



"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 04:01 AM
Good god....
The P-39 down low was one of the best fighters of the war. Under 10,000 ft. the plane was excellent. It was given a poor rating when people tried to fly it above that altitude, and it was deserved above 10k.
But below 10k it was excellent. The Russians didn't try to use above 10k so they loved it and used within that range, it was not a second rate plane.
Anyone who thinks that American planes designators has anything to do with actual performance or even when they were put into production needs to stop playing and go read some books for a few years.
Mirthain=FC=

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 04:07 AM
Like a woman. Treat her nice and she treats you nice.

Growing old is inevitable. Growing up is optional.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:13 PM
I consider it as a n00b-plane, just like Yaks.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I allways have readed, that it was very prone for stalling, and that was the way it was in IL-2, but not with FB.. dunno which one has the correct FM. Luckily P-39 very vulnerable to damage, except for MK108, when it sometimes takes 7-10 MK108 hits to fuselage (OMG!).. hopefully patch will fix this..

However, 109s and 190s should be fairly safe from P-39, since they can outclimb and outspeed the Cobra..

____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:27 PM
Vipez-

I consider the 109's noob planes. More so than the Yak3.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:43 PM
Real men fly P-40's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.military.ie/images/irlflag.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:10 PM
This thread is funny.

<=== Insert rolly eyes
<=== Insert yawn



mike_espo wrote:
- The FM of p-39 must be screwed up in FB. In IL2, a
- p-39 is no problem. Just in real life, a well flown
- k-4 should kill a p-39 every time. Hope oleg fixes
- this in the patch


A well-flown P-39 should kill a K-4 every time. The key is in the 'well flown' portion of your statement. The K-4 may have been better at its strengths, but to say "every time" is kind of an ignorant statement.

I've been flying the P-39 since the first week of the original IL-2. I had a lot more respect garnered through flying it back then. I shot down the best planes in the original IL-2 on a weekly basis. I now do the same in FB. Are you telling me that if I had the same FM on my P-39 in FB that I had in IL-2 I would never be able to kill a K-4?

I highly doubt that.

Btw, I've jumped in a K-4 a couple of times and you want to talk about uber! Sure it may have been a better plane but I would give much more respect to the harder to fly P-39 pilot than the Uber cannon in the sky K-4 pilot. I felt like I was taking candy from a baby flying the K-4.






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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:24 PM
The P39 is the most FUBARÔ┬┤ed FM this sim has.

I prefered the old IL-2 Demo one, and the first release of IL-2. It actually took skill to fly it.

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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:38 PM
StG77_Kondor wrote:
- The P39 is the most FUBARÔ┬┤ed FM this sim has.
-
- I prefered the old IL-2 Demo one, and the first
- release of IL-2. It actually took skill to fly it.



True.
Like I said it garnered more respect.
I liked that.



Vipez- wrote:
- I consider it as a n00b-plane, just like Yaks.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
- I allways have readed, that it
- was very prone for stalling, and that was the way it
- was in IL-2, but not with FB.. dunno which one has
- the correct FM. Luckily P-39 very vulnerable to
- damage, except for MK108, when it sometimes takes
- 7-10 MK108 hits to fuselage (OMG!).. hopefully patch
- will fix this..
-
- However, 109s and 190s should be fairly safe from
- P-39, since they can outclimb and outspeed the
- Cobra..



The n00b label some are giving it now is ridiculous and ignorant. I can name off over a dozen planes that are easier to fly, fight and kill with in FB. I think you need to think about what defines a n00b plane. Just because it's over modeled doesn't make it a n00b when it's still harder to fly and kill with than what most of you fly. What do you fly?





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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:40 PM
*Cherry*


StG77_Kondor wrote:
- The P39 is the most FUBARÔ┬┤ed FM this sim has.
-
- I prefered the old IL-2 Demo one, and the first
- release of IL-2. It actually took skill to fly it.



True.
Like I said it garnered more respect.
I liked that.



Vipez- wrote:
- I consider it as a n00b-plane, just like Yaks.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
- I allways have readed, that it
- was very prone for stalling, and that was the way it
- was in IL-2, but not with FB.. dunno which one has
- the correct FM. Luckily P-39 very vulnerable to
- damage, except for MK108, when it sometimes takes
- 7-10 MK108 hits to fuselage (OMG!).. hopefully patch
- will fix this..
-
- However, 109s and 190s should be fairly safe from
- P-39, since they can outclimb and outspeed the
- Cobra..



The n00b label some are giving it now is ridiculous and ignorant. I can name off over a dozen planes that are easier to fly, fight and kill with in FB. I think you need to think about what defines a n00b plane. Just because it's over modeled doesn't make it a n00b when it's still harder to fly and kill with than what most of you fly. What do you fly?


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ZG77_Nagual
07-21-2003, 07:45 PM
I'll agree with that - I've been accused of flying an uber noob plane when I shot down a 109 in the p39 (g2) but the g2 even with gunpods is superior to the p39 in all respects save roll. It is far from uber - the early yaks give it quite a hard time too if they are flown well.
In the patch the p39 is quite good - though controls get heavier at high speeds. however - the patched 190! now THERE's an airplane.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:51 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I'll agree with that - I've been accused of flying
- an uber noob plane when I shot down a 109 in the p39
- (g2) but the g2 even with gunpods is superior to the
- p39 in all respects save roll. It is far from uber -
- the early yaks give it quite a hard time too if they
- are flown well.
- In the patch the p39 is quite good - though controls
- get heavier at high speeds. however - the patched
- 190! now THERE's an airplane.



True. I find a well flown Yak-1B gives the P-39 N1 a very hard fight.


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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 08:47 PM
Gemini, I think most people say it's been noobified because it is unmistakably easier to fly in FB than IL2.

In IL2, if I came up against a p39 jockey and he held his own, you knew you were flying against an experienced pilot. That's not the case in FB. A new pilot can jump in and have a good go in it and a good yank on the stick doesn't cause an unrecoverable flat spin. It's a much easier plane to fly now, and after the patch that ease will be enhanced according to some.





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Message Edited on 07/21/0303:48PM by Chadburn

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:00 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- Gemini, I think most people say it's been noobified
- because it is unmistakably easier to fly in FB than
- IL2.
-
- In IL2, if I came up against a p39 jockey and he
- held his own, you knew you were flying against an
- experienced pilot. That's not the case in FB. A
- new pilot can jump in and have a good go in it and a
- good yank on the stick doesn't cause an
- unrecoverable flat spin. It's a much easier plane
- to fly now, and after the patch that ease will be
- enhanced according to some.



Yeah I've got the gist of why they're a saying it, but if they actually think about what they're saying it doesn't make sense.

Like I mentioned I started flying the P-39 the first week I bought the original IL-2, which means I was an n00b. I chose it because I like a good challenge and I also liked the MGs with Cannon 1-2 punch. Did that make it an n00b plane in IL-2 (original) simply because as an n00b I could fly it? I don't like the fact that it's now easier for n00bs to fly. I used to love the fact that you needed brass balls to fly the original. The bottom line still screams that many other planes are still much easier to fly in IL-2 FB, which makes the n00b label either too broad or too ignorant to be valid.



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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:18 PM
I would agree that there are other planes that are easier, how many I'm not sure. But the P39 has been noobified - made easier for a new pilot to handle.

But that can be said of the FM in FB in general. The dilemma is of course, are you supposed to give up your favourite ride just because Oleg has decided to adjust a plane's FM? Obviously not.

The sim is what it is, and ultimately we have to adjust to what Oleg presents us with.





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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:57 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- I would agree that there are other planes that are
- easier, how many I'm not sure. But the P39 has been
- noobified - made easier for a new pilot to handle.
-
- But that can be said of the FM in FB in general.
- The dilemma is of course, are you supposed to give
- up your favourite ride just because Oleg has decided
- to adjust a plane's FM? Obviously not.



Exactly.
I'm not giving up my chariot because of changes I have no control over. I've already run into people online who use the excuse of me flying an n00b-39 as being the reason they lost. Which is utter BS because they're flying Yaks or a 109 K4 and in one case even a Me-262! Give me a break. I was proficient and capable in the P-39 in IL-2 (original) and I am in FB and will be in future patches to come. I personally only want to get better and I have no control over what course the planes FM takes. With that said, it's my opinion that the P-39 is not a n00b plane even if it is easier than before for n00bs to start out in.




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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 11:17 PM
If you gents want a non n00b plane, go fly the MIG-3's. That takes some real skill to fly (and maybe a portable fire extinguishers)

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 11:23 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- Chadburn wrote:
-- I would agree that there are other planes that are
-- easier, how many I'm not sure. But the P39 has been
-- noobified - made easier for a new pilot to handle.
--
-- But that can be said of the FM in FB in general.
-- The dilemma is of course, are you supposed to give
-- up your favourite ride just because Oleg has decided
-- to adjust a plane's FM? Obviously not.
-
-
-
- Exactly.
- I'm not giving up my chariot because of changes I
- have no control over. I've already run into people
- online who use the excuse of me flying an n00b-39 as
- being the reason they lost. Which is utter BS
- because they're flying Yaks or a 109 K4 and in one
- case even a Me-262! Give me a break. I was
- proficient and capable in the P-39 in IL-2
- (original) and I am in FB and will be in future
- patches to come. I personally only want to get
- better and I have no control over what course the
- planes FM takes. With that said, it's my opinion
- that the P-39 is not a n00b plane even if it is
- easier than before for n00bs to start out in.


No Gem. P-39 should be banned on all servers until developer decides to review the FM. The way HurriIIc was banned. In beta 08 it climbs at 4300 fpm instead of 2700fpm (on the first try, maybe the climb rate is even higher), turns in 16 sec at full load instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of 400-500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst representation of P-39 in any sim.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:00 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No Gem. P-39 should be banned on all servers until
- developer decides to review the FM. The way HurriIIc
- was banned. In beta 08 it climbs at 4300 fpm instead
- of 2700fpm (on the first try, maybe the climb rate
- is even higher), turns in 16 sec at full load
- instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of
- 400-500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst
- representation of P-39 in any sim.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I guess you should ban half the planes then, well besides LW, which are obviously under modeled right? Pffffft. Did you "test" the turn rate? I only ask because I think it was you that mentioned turn rate before and I responded with "I think the turn rate is closer to 22 but I think 15 seconds is more accurate for the game because virtual pilots turn fearlessly." So here you are with a leaked patch (not finished) and you (not an expert) test the turn rate of a plane in a simulation. Then you take those results and run with them. OMFG, that is so short sighted I'm almost ready to barf from laughing. Are you serious?

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:01 AM
At simhq Ian started an open bug report thread. I and a few others mentioned the P-39's tie fighter like flight model and Lagg-3 S66's crazy climb rate. Both Ian and Oleg said it would be examined closely. I assume that means it will be revised in the final release.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:03 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
- At simhq Ian started an open bug report thread. I
- and a few others mentioned the P-39's tie fighter
- like flight model and Lagg-3 S66's crazy climb rate.
- Both Ian and Oleg said it would be examined closely.
- I assume that means it will be revised in the final
- release.



Good.




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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:15 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No Gem. P-39 should be banned on all servers until
- developer decides to review the FM. The way HurriIIc
- was banned.


Btw, it's funny how you say "The way HurriIIc was banned."

I mean that's sad. Really, really sad. You actually can't handle yourself against a Hurricane?

I allow all the planes with current models. I host a 3-team set on my server and generally fly Allies with my P-39. If the Germans are running low I'll jump to blue same for the Russians on red. There's nothing in the game that performs so uber that I'd be willing to say ban it.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It's my opinion that 99.9% of FM whiners need to learn how to fly.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If they send the P-39 FM back to the IL-2 (original) ages that will be fine by me. At least I wont hear the ridiculous whining.



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:43 AM
Most of the 109's are overmodeled in FB. I didn't see to many LW pilots complaining.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 01:10 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Most of the 109's are overmodeled in FB. I didn't
- see to many LW pilots complaining.


All the planes enjoy two times better turn radius. I complained about this ever since I got FB.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 01:15 AM
BpGemini wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- No Gem. P-39 should be banned on all servers until
-- developer decides to review the FM. The way HurriIIc
-- was banned. In beta 08 it climbs at 4300 fpm instead
-- of 2700fpm (on the first try, maybe the climb rate
-- is even higher), turns in 16 sec at full load
-- instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of
-- 400-500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst
-- representation of P-39 in any sim.
-
-
- I guess you should ban half the planes then, well
- besides LW, which are obviously under modeled right?
- Pffffft. Did you "test" the turn rate? I only ask
- because I think it was you that mentioned turn rate
- before and I responded with "I think the turn rate
- is closer to 22 but I think 15 seconds is more
- accurate for the game because virtual pilots turn
- fearlessly." So here you are with a leaked patch
- (not finished) and you (not an expert) test the turn
- rate of a plane in a simulation. Then you take those
- results and run with them. OMFG, that is so short
- sighted I'm almost ready to barf from laughing. Are
- you serious?


What a crap, "virtual pilots turn fearlessly". Do they turn outside the flight envelope? Yes, all the time. If you try to turn in Airacobra in less than 22 sec in real life, you'll send you're plane in an accelerated stall in an instant (at loaded weight).

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 01:18 AM
Do you represent all the LW guys?

btw..How about their top speed, or some of the climb rates?

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 01:41 AM
Ill whine about the overmodeled 109s. Mainly because in Forgotten Wars all I get right now are 109s, and they are making me lazy. When my real love the 190 gets there I will be so lazy I will get torched in that thing. 109s shouldnt handle so nice at 700kph, and 190s shouldnt have the elevators become useless at over 500kph. I also dont like how the MG FF is 10 times more effective than the MG151, I know that aint right.The MG FF needs toning down, and the MG151 needs a boost.


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:33 AM
Actually some of us do whine about planes being overmodeled. I whined alot about the Fw 190A9 going 620 km/h TAS at sea level.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:59 AM
I did say not to many. I took note of the ones who did../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:19 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Most of the 109's are overmodeled in FB. I didn't
- see to many LW pilots complaining.
-
- Da Buzz

You kill me Buzz...how many VVS boys complain about their uber planes.



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:27 AM
Chadburn

I was pretty much talking to Huck, in reponce to his post.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:34 AM
Understood Buzz. I just very seldom see anyone arguing for balance on both sides.

Like you, I fly a variety of planes, red and blue, and would like to see this sim be as accurate as possible.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:18 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- What a crap, "virtual pilots turn fearlessly". Do
- they turn outside the flight envelope? Yes, all the
- time. If you try to turn in Airacobra in less than
- 22 sec in real life, you'll send you're plane in an
- accelerated stall in an instant (at loaded weight).


You're right, "in real life". Alas you miss my point completely. I was pointing out the fact that this occurs with all the planes therefore calling out just the P-39 is short-sighted and wrong. Do you understand?



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:36 AM
Hey Viper, great advice!!!

"Keep shooting them with your mg's then, with your main cannon they go boom!!!"

But I don't see how this advice applies specifically to the P-39. I mean, isn't this what you want to do in every plane?


On a similar note, good advice for soccer would be to kick the ball in the opponent's net.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:55 AM
BpGemini wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- What a crap, "virtual pilots turn fearlessly". Do
-- they turn outside the flight envelope? Yes, all the
-- time. If you try to turn in Airacobra in less than
-- 22 sec in real life, you'll send you're plane in an
-- accelerated stall in an instant (at loaded weight).
-
-
- You're right, "in real life". Alas you miss my point
- completely. I was pointing out the fact that this
- occurs with all the planes therefore calling out
- just the P-39 is short-sighted and wrong. Do you
- understand?


I very much disagree with you. P-39 is in FB the best turnfighter of the early war, leaving I-153 aside (completely different design). I did not compare it with late war planes, like yak3 or La7, but I have a feeling that it can outturn them too. Well Gem P-39 was in fact the worst turner (in early war setting) and this is the problem: from the worst turner in real life it is the best turner in FB.

Most planes turn with 2 seconds better than in real life (which is very annoying if you want to B&Z because all the time you'll have to shoot at impossible deflection angles - I think you saw that after the patch B&Z is much easier), but P-39 turns with 6 seconds better than in RL. I already mentioned the completely off climb rate. Yes it should be banned until its FM is corrected.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:05 AM
Dont forget the Russian P-39s were not the same as the American ones..they were made lighter and there were some other modifications..... I cant remember them all and my books are still packed away but I know it wasnt the same plane. And the P-39 was not a bad fighter down low is=f used right.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:24 AM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Dont forget the Russian P-39s were not the same as
- the American ones..they were made lighter and there
- were some other modifications..... I cant remember
- them all and my books are still packed away but I
- know it wasnt the same plane. And the P-39 was not a
- bad fighter down low is=f used right.


Yes, P-39 in russian service was sligtly lighter, they removed some of the armor (from a total of less than 90kg) and sometimes changed the armament. P-39 with fuselage tank empty turned in russian test in 19.5 sec (360deg sustained turn). That fuselage tank empty means the test plane had only 53% from total fuel load. G2 had the same turn rate at full fuel load.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:26 AM
BpGemini wrote:

- True. I find a well flown Yak-1B gives the P-39 N1 a
- very hard fight.
-

Did mad sqirrel got to ya Gem? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:14 PM
I agree, that 109 are in a way n00b-planes.. and they are overmodelled. However, the undermodelled LW-guns make it not-so-n00b-planes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif as you need quite a many hits to most VVS-planes with MK108.

Surely LW-whiners don't whine about this, even when they know it is true.. instead FW-190 should be the real n00b-plane, however it is not.. as one of the most challenging planes to fly successfully in FB 1.0.

Hopefully patch changes something.. And surely some (most) VVS-planes are overmodelled too, like the strong points with 109 (dive speed, climb) is not really the strong points in FB 1.0.. like you try to escape a Yak1 with 109 in diving, impossible at the moment.. Not to mention escaping a Rata/chaikka with Brewster with diving.. no good.

And I agree with Huckebein_FW .. P-39 is way too good of a turner.. as good as Yaks. And never stall, no matter how much you pull the stick. I like to play with challenging planes, like FW-190.. I don't like playing for VVS, since on random dogfighting servers, since it is way too easy to get kills with ├╝ber hurricanes/Yaks/Ratas.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:36 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- Did mad sqirrel got to ya Gem? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ivan, I must tell you, are little squirrel friend is a killer in that Yak-1B.

Actually the count Saturday was 12 (me) - 4 (Vev) during our 1v1 time. He was flying a LaGG for the first 6 matches, in which I won all of them. Then he jumped in his Yak-1B and I jumped in my P-39 N1. I killed him the first fight and then proceeded to win the next 3 in which he states I had an altitude advantage (I never went over 1000m). Then he suggested we meet over a town on the map at 1000m where we finished out the match at 2-4.

It's always fun scraping with Vev. I had a blast.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:39 PM
Oops forgot the Cherry.


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:40 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- This thread is funny.
-
- <=== Insert rolly eyes
- <=== Insert yawn
-
-
-
- mike_espo wrote:
-- The FM of p-39 must be screwed up in FB. In IL2, a
-- p-39 is no problem. Just in real life, a well flown
-- k-4 should kill a p-39 every time. Hope oleg fixes
-- this in the patch
-
-
- A well-flown P-39 should kill a K-4 every time. The
- key is in the 'well flown' portion of your
- statement. The K-4 may have been better at its
- strengths, but to say "every time" is kind of an
- ignorant statement.

You my friend are the ignorant one! I meant to say that the plane is overmodeled in FB. And by the posts in this thread I would say a large majority of players would agree with me.

Vaffanculo froccio pig!!

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:47 PM
P-39 is most overmodeled plane in the game by far. Everybody who's flying it without requesting a correction of FM is a p*ss poor pilot.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:55 PM
i tell ya, the TB-3's roll rate is way over modeled, speaking of noob planes, the TB-3 is definetly a noob plane...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:09 PM
OMG


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Message Edited on 07/22/0311:10AM by BpGemini

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:10 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- You my friend are the ignorant one! I meant to say
- that the plane is overmodeled in FB. And by the
- posts in this thread I would say a large majority of
- players would agree with me.
-
- Vaffanculo froccio pig!!



You should learn the difference between someone calling you ignorant and saying it's an ignorant statement. Its funny you say, "the majority says", because to me it looks as though the majority is saying, "yeah it's over modeled, but so are a lot of planes". Only a couple of you are trying to nail the P-39 to the cross. That's what I find ridiculous. The planes the complainers fly are most likely just as over modeled.

STFU until the 31st especially with this hypocritical BS.






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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:16 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- P-39 is most overmodeled plane in the game by far.
- Everybody who's flying it without requesting a
- correction of FM is a p*ss poor pilot.


That's BS. I've always flown the P-39 since the first days of IL-2. When I do jump over to other planes I have no problem taking down the P-39. How do you have soooo much trouble against her? Do you suck that bad?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Give me a list of Russian or Allied planes that you think are NOT over modeled. I'll pick from that list and we can go rounds any time you like.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:21 PM
Then again, you'll probably scream "cheater".
Anything to conceal your inadequacies.





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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:27 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- P-39 is most overmodeled plane in the game by far.
-- Everybody who's flying it without requesting a
-- correction of FM is a p*ss poor pilot.
-
-
- That's BS. I've always flown the P-39 since the
- first days of IL-2. When I do jump over to other
- planes I have no problem taking down the P-39. How
- do you have soooo much trouble against her? Do you
- suck that bad?

No, actually I kill it every time. But I want to outturn it in a flat horizontal turn like it was possible in real life (when flying early Bf-109).


- Give me a list of Russian or Allied planes that you
- think are NOT over modeled. I'll pick from that list
- and we can go rounds any time you like.

Yes all are overmodelled to some degree, but P-39 is the most overmodelled plane in the whole game, so it should be banned.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:35 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No, actually I kill it every time. But I want to
- outturn it in a flat horizontal turn like it was
- possible in real life (when flying early Bf-109).


Which early war 109? I can out turn the P-39 in an F-4, you can't? Also sight your source of which version P-39 was out turned by which version of 109.



Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Yes all are overmodelled to some degree, but P-39 is
- the most overmodelled plane in the whole game, so it
- should be banned.


I totally disagree. I think there are several planes that are far more over modeled than the P-39. Far more.





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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:42 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- No, actually I kill it every time. But I want to
-- outturn it in a flat horizontal turn like it was
-- possible in real life (when flying early Bf-109).
-
-
- Which early war 109? I can out turn the P-39 in an
- F-4, you can't? Also sight your source of which
- version P-39 was out turned by which version of 109.


Show a F4 turning horizontally flat with P-39 above the ground (no movement in the vertical) beginning from 350kmh (because I'm interested in sustained turns not instantaneous). You should win every time against a P-39 correctly modelled. Don't forget to post the track.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:49 PM
BPGEMENI how do u put thouse pictures in your post??
(the one u always have)/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:50 PM
Hopely the p39 and the bf109k4 wont be as over modeled afther the patch, so you shuld start to saying good bye to yours beloved planes

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:55 PM
Aztek_Eagle wrote:
- Hopely the p39 and the bf109k4 wont be as over
- modeled afther the patch, so you shuld start to
- saying good bye to yours beloved planes



I'll be saying hello not goodbye. In case you missed it I said I liked my old P-39 better.






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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:59 PM
oleg86 wrote:
- BPGEMENI how do u put thouse pictures in your post??
- (the one u always have)



First you have to have a webspace provider to link to the picture.

Then you have to use this code;

<*img src="www.myhost.mypic.etc"*>

Note: take out the asterisks.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:00 PM
Huck,

You keep claiming the real P-39 didn't turn good. Let's see some documents?

Make sure you have what model P-39, and then show a 109 that out turns it,and what model it is.

Until you do this. You have no arguement. Look at the object viewer. Oleg didn't pull those turn rates out of the air. I'm sure he has documents to back it up. I don't see any 109 coming close to the turn rate of a Q-10.

F4.....19.6 - 20.5
Q-10...18 - 19

Da Buzz
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Message Edited on 07/22/0310:05AM by BuzzU

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:08 PM
THX/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:08 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Show a F4 turning horizontally flat with P-39 above
- the ground (no movement in the vertical) beginning
- from 350kmh (because I'm interested in sustained
- turns not instantaneous). You should win every time
- against a P-39 correctly modelled. Don't forget to
- post the track.



Are you doing these tests offline against AI? Please tell me you're not.
So you agree that the 109-F4 does outturn the P-39 instantaneously. You just want to nit pick the situation.

I also find it funny that you mentioned the P-39 was the worst early war turner when the BF-109 Emil was worse than the P-39 N1. P-39 N1 22 seconds the Emil 26-30 seconds.




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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:21 PM
There are complaints against FB's representation of the P39 - it's climb rate and stall characteristics - but complaining about it's turn rate shouldn't be one of them.

The Eastern front was fought over flat terrain and the Germans chose to send their bombers over at medium and low
altitudes, the ideal height for P39's to engage at.

A captured BF 109E was tested by the RAF at Duxford against a P-39C. The Airacobra outperformed the 109 in every category except rate of climb when below 15,000 ft.

The P-39 could easily out-turn the 109--it took
the 'Cobra less than 720 degrees to get on the tail of the BF when it was on its six.

Therefore, it's realistic for the P-39 to deal effectively with early 109's at the low altitudes if T and B tactics are used.




http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

Message Edited on 07/22/0301:36PM by Chadburn

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:34 PM
Pilots proficient in the P-39 are few and far between in FB. No matter how overmodelled it may be, it still remains a difficult plane to get alot of kills with. Anyone who can do so has eithered practiced it alot, or has alot of the kind of skill some people are just born with. I always have respect for someone who consistently chooses the p39 to fly as I usually get too frustrated with it and switch back to one of my favorites. If it were such a n00b plane as some of you are saying, it would be much more numerous, right? News flash, there aren't that many folks flying it these days. I'd say p39 pilots are a vast minority online in fb.

CPS_Dragonaire
http://il2_cps.tripod.com

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:23 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- There are complaints against FB's representation of
- the P39 - it's climb rate and stall characteristics
- - but complaining about it's turn rate shouldn't be
- one of them.
-
- The Eastern front was fought over flat terrain and
- the Germans chose to send their bombers over at
- medium and low
- altitudes, the ideal height for P39's to engage at.
-
- A captured BF 109E was tested by the RAF at Duxford
- against a P-39C. The Airacobra outperformed the 109
- in every category except rate of climb when below
- 15,000 ft.
-
- The P-39 could easily out-turn the 109--it took
- the 'Cobra less than 720 degrees to get on the tail
- of the BF when it was on its six.
-
- Therefore, it's realistic for the P-39 to deal
- effectively with early 109's at the low altitudes if
- T and B tactics are used.



I absolutely agree. Bring back the stalls and climb rate of the original IL-2. The BF-109 F4 is capable of outturning the P-39 N1 in an early war setting and does so in the game, so I'm not sure what Huck is complaining about. The P-39 is a capable turn fighter against other 109s, so I'm not sure what his stance is on this matter.



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:46 PM
CPS_Dragonaire wrote:
- Pilots proficient in the P-39 are few and far
- between in FB. No matter how overmodelled it may be,
- it still remains a difficult plane to get alot of
- kills with. Anyone who can do so has eithered
- practiced it alot, or has alot of the kind of skill
- some people are just born with. I always have
- respect for someone who consistently chooses the p39
- to fly as I usually get too frustrated with it and
- switch back to one of my favorites. If it were such
- a n00b plane as some of you are saying, it would be
- much more numerous, right? News flash, there aren't
- that many folks flying it these days. I'd say p39
- pilots are a vast minority online in fb.



Nice post. I was telling Huck that each time I switch from my P-39 to something else it becomes easier to get kills. He had no response.





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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:09 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- There are complaints against FB's representation of
- the P39 - it's climb rate and stall characteristics
- - but complaining about it's turn rate shouldn't be
- one of them.
-
- The Eastern front was fought over flat terrain and
- the Germans chose to send their bombers over at
- medium and low
- altitudes, the ideal height for P39's to engage at.
-
- A captured BF 109E was tested by the RAF at Duxford
- against a P-39C. The Airacobra outperformed the 109
- in every category except rate of climb when below
- 15,000 ft.


British tests of Bf-109 have notoriously poor credibility. They claimed that Bf-109 had poor high speed handling which is not confimed by any of the pilots who flew it either at war or in airshows representations. Also they claimed that at high AoA slats will pop-up suddenly giving the aircraft a violent roll, so british tests were never made at high AoA, therefore british tests do not give an accurate picture over 109's turning performance. Of course nobody else complained about slats (except british test pilots). They also said that Fw-190 outturned Bf-109 so it's not a surprise that P-39 did it too in such awful tests.



- The P-39 could easily out-turn the 109--it took
- the 'Cobra less than 720 degrees to get on the tail
- of the BF when it was on its six.

This is completely inaccurate. Do they tell in how many seconds 109 completed the 360 turn to compare the results with russian tests? They did not? Ah.. I understand.



- Therefore, it's realistic for the P-39 to deal
- effectively with early 109's at the low altitudes if
- T and B tactics are used.

No, it's not. Early Bf-109 were furious turn fighters, better than anything they met except I-153 and Spitfire. Turn time for early Bf-109 (E4, F4, G2) was the between 18-19 sec at loaded weight.



Message Edited on 07/22/0302:11PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:21 PM
Just words Huck. Show some proof.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:24 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Show a F4 turning horizontally flat with P-39 above
-- the ground (no movement in the vertical) beginning
-- from 350kmh (because I'm interested in sustained
-- turns not instantaneous). You should win every time
-- against a P-39 correctly modelled. Don't forget to
-- post the track.
-
-
-
- Are you doing these tests offline against AI? Please
- tell me you're not.

Yes , against AI, why not? I can outturn AI 109F4 in a 109F4, and since F4 was a better turner than P-39 I should outturn P-39 too.



- So you agree that the 109-F4 does outturn the P-39
- instantaneously. You just want to nit pick the
- situation.

No it doesn't outturn it anyhow. But instantaneous turn rate is hard to compare, there are too many factors than can affect the accuracy of the test. Sustained turn rate instead can be accurately tested, just lure the AI in a turnfight with you on the deck (in order to turn only in the horizontal) and turn at best sustained speed.



- I also find it funny that you mentioned the P-39 was
- the worst early war turner when the BF-109 Emil was
- worse than the P-39 N1. P-39 N1 22 seconds the Emil
- 26-30 seconds.

26-28 sec turn time for 109E is a typo dating from first version of Il2, of course correct numbers are 16-18 sec (18 sec at loaded weight).

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:25 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Just words Huck. Show some proof.


You mean british turn tests, yes words without proof.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:29 PM
I DONT CARE WHAT ALL OF U GERMAN NOOBS SAY, P39 IS BEST AND ITS NOT OVERMODELT!!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif SO JUST SHUTUP LOSERS!!!!!!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:29 PM
I didn't say anything about the British tests. I want to see proof of what your saying. Where do you get these specs from? I'm not even saying your wrong. Just prove what you say.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:31 PM
Huckebein_FW said
>>it climbs at 4300 fpm instead of 2700fpm , maybe the >>climb rate is even higher), turns in 16 sec at full load >>instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of 400->>500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst >>representation of P-39 in any sim.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p39.htm

"Initial climb: P-39L: 4,000 ft. (1220 m) per minute"

Doesnt sound to far off to me, plus thats the climbrate for an L, the Q had a slightly better engine, same hp, but could easily make the diff for that extra 300feet.

As for turning, i dont know, but after your first figure, im not believing anything you say.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:31 PM
oleg86 wrote:
- I DONT CARE WHAT ALL OF U GERMAN NOOBS SAY, P39 IS
- BEST AND ITS NOT OVERMODELT!!! SO JUST SHUTUP
- LOSERS!!!!!!


Somebody just snapped/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ZG77_Nagual
07-22-2003, 08:32 PM
I like the p39 - in FB it is a great and fun plane to fly. Not as easy to get kills in as a 109 - which is what I take up when I feel the need to just relax and blow other people up without having to concentrate too much, but easier that the 190 - which is my other fav. Huck seems to hate everything except 109s - which I regard as second only to yaks and las in ease of flying. Of course being really good in any of them is a challenge - the point is slamming people for flying 39s is... well; reflective of an unbalanced view.

The p39 was a very good plane - once it got sorted out - which the Russians managed nicely I'd say. It's not hard to see how the Americans underestimated the 39 given the circumstances under which it made it's combat debut.

It's my impression the f4 outturns damn near anything - at least it seems to when I fly it - I-153s, I16s etc. excused from the conversation.

Oh, and it seems to me I read somewhere the 109k was not terribly popular among it's pilots

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg


Message Edited on 07/22/0303:33PM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:35 PM
oleg86

Quality post../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:36 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Yes , against AI, why not? I can outturn AI 109F4 in
- a 109F4, and since F4 was a better turner than P-39
- I should outturn P-39 too.


You can't get an accurate FM test against the AI in any sense of versus performance.
I hope you haven't been bothering Oleg with these nonsense AI test results.



Huckebein_FW wrote:
- 26-28 sec turn time for 109E is a typo dating from
- first version of Il2, of course correct numbers are
- 16-18 sec (18 sec at loaded weight).


Of course.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:37 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- oleg86 wrote:
-- I DONT CARE WHAT ALL OF U GERMAN NOOBS SAY, P39 IS
-- BEST AND ITS NOT OVERMODELT!!! SO JUST SHUTUP
-- LOSERS!!!!!!
-
-
- Somebody just snapped/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I mean IT!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:39 PM
oleg86 wrote:
- I DONT CARE WHAT ALL OF U GERMAN NOOBS SAY, P39 IS
- BEST AND ITS NOT OVERMODELT!!! SO JUST SHUTUP LOSERS!!!!!!!



Yeah, what he said!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif

<center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">Warning: My intense sense of humor may tug at the stick crammed in your shaded spot.</table style></center> <center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">If you treasure your lack of humor please refrain from reading my posts as they may cause laughter.</table style></center> <center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">Heaven Forbid.</table style></center>
<table style="filter:glow[color=black,strength=1)">
<font size=+2><font color="black">Still loving my P-39</font></font> </table style>
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
<table style="filter:glow[color=green,strength=4)"> www.blitzpigs.com</center> (http://www.blitzpigs.com</center>) </table style>

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:47 PM
Huck isn't a German noob. He's been this way for a long time.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:52 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Huck isn't a German noob. He's been this way for a
- long time.
-
- Da Buzz
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- <center>
<img
- src="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3
- .jpg">
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm sry 4 him/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
its many strange pll out there>>>>>WORLD<<<<<<</i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 11:28 PM
In reference to the turning circles of the P-39 vs the Me-109, American pilots flying P-39s and -40s in North Africa thought they could turn with 109s, and passed it around as gospel long after. I suspect the truth was that the Airacobra and Warhawk were close, and the 109 drivers rarely flew their bird in the T&B mode unless forced to, and if I remember my 'The First and the Last" correctly, German pilots were leery of hard turns in the 109 because the wings came off a few Emils in the early part of the war(probably trying to turn with overmodeled Hurricanes). That, coupled with the 109's strength in the B&Z mode probably led in practice to the Airacobras' perceived superiority.

As for the P-39's bad rep within the USAAF, that was due to it's perceived shortcomings in the early Pacific war, when it was shipped into the theater to former P-40 units without manuals or documentation, often mixing returned Lend lease P-400s (RAF versions of the Airacobra) in with C & D models in the same shipments. For some reason, these units didn't perform well, particularly after Japanese units figured out the high altitude deficiency.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:07 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- turns in 16 sec at full load
- instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of
- 400-500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst
- representation of P-39 in any sim.

Bolding added by me for emphasis:

What is your technique for obtaining this measurement within the game?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When my brother and I built and flew the first man-carrying flying machine, we thought that we were introducing into the world an invention which would make further wars impossible..."

Orville Wright, 1917

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:54 AM
Leadfinger_71 wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- turns in 16 sec at full load
-- instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of
-- 400-500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst
-- representation of P-39 in any sim.
-
- Bolding added by me for emphasis:
-
- What is your technique for obtaining this
- measurement within the game?


Good question. Take a P-39 against a P-39 and dive on deck and engage AI in a sustained turn. Best sustained turn for P-39N&Q is at 300-310kmh. Keep the turn horizontally flat, just above the ground and always keep the speed constant. You'll see that when AI is at 180 degrees distance from you planes are separated by 400-450m. It should be over 800m.

You can tell the 180 degrees difference by flying in switching to outside view in medium zoom. When engaging outside padlock planes should be one over the other (you can't see the other plane).

I'll record a track tomorrow if you can't reproduce this test.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:59 AM
Huck, can you post the specific sources for the P-39 data you are presenting? Posting the actual document would support your position even better.

I'd like to know just where you come up with such numbers. Are they number you "calculated?"

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:08 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
-You'll see that when AI is at 180 degrees distance from you planes are separated by 400-450m. It should be over 800m

Where do you get this figure of over 800m from? I'm curious.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:22 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Leadfinger_71 wrote:
-- Huckebein_FW wrote:
--- turns in 16 sec at full load
--- instead of 22, and turn radius is 200m insted of
--- 400-500m. It can easily won the prize for the worst
--- representation of P-39 in any sim.
--
-- Bolding added by me for emphasis:
--
-- What is your technique for obtaining this
-- measurement within the game?
-
-
- Good question. Take a P-39 against a P-39 and dive
- on deck and engage AI in a sustained turn. Best
- sustained turn for P-39N&Q is at 300-310kmh. Keep
- the turn horizontally flat, just above the ground
- and always keep the speed constant. You'll see that
- when AI is at 180 degrees distance from you planes
- are separated by 400-450m. It should be over 800m.
-
- You can tell the 180 degrees difference by flying in
- switching to outside view in medium zoom. When
- engaging outside padlock planes should be one over
- the other (you can't see the other plane).
-
- I'll record a track tomorrow if you can't reproduce
- this test.


I would like to see a track of this technique, but as I picture it in my mind, I come to the conclusion that there are way too many unknowns and factors that are out of your control with this technique to obtain a reliable turn radius distance from it. Perhaps if you were flying with another person over a LAN or on a server with good pings and voice comms, you could do something like this and get a reasonable estimate. Just measuring distance from a moving object is going to introduce a great deal of error.

I think a more reasonable ballpark estimate would be to fly over a runway of known length, perpendicular to one end of it, turn on smoke, then make your turn on the deck. Place a static camera or two directly over the runway at about 1 or 2 km altitude and eyeball the size of the circle as a fraction of the runway length, then back out the diameter from that. An even better approach would be a similar technique done over a line of objects (campfires, racing pylons, whatever) that are spaced a known distance apart (say 100m). Fly perpendicular to the line at one end, and make a note of which one you pass over on the other side (after several revolutions if necessary). Of course, one would also have to repeat this experiment many times (at least 10 I'd say, probably more like 25) to try and average out random error. Unfortunately, I don't think that the FMB has the capability to do "place object X meters from Y object in Z direction (bearing?)."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When my brother and I built and flew the first man-carrying flying machine, we thought that we were introducing into the world an invention which would make further wars impossible..."

Orville Wright, 1917

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:34 AM
I will still be flying my P39 when hell freezes over/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>http://www.km011a0004.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/poser3.jpg <CENTER>
<center><b/><table style="filter:glow[color=#FF0000,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#1A0000"face="americanabt">Laughing helps<font></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:36 AM
Do I see a little ice over there in the corner of hell?

Da Buzz
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http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:42 AM
Possibly but only if the P51 FM lives up to my expectations and I can learn to fly the beast well (though I detest BnZ battles).

If I am stuck to only one style of combat (BnZ) in the P51 then hell will be staying very hot for a long time to come because I much prefer the Turn and burn at mediu,m to low alts and that is nothing to do with lazyness but more to do with close quarters battles.

In BnZ tactics a slashing attack never has that personal touch (IMHO) so as to flying the P51 and enjoying it? Maybe I should stick with what I can consistantly fry others with with/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center>http://www.km011a0004.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/poser3.jpg <CENTER>
<center><b/><table style="filter:glow[color=#FF0000,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#1A0000"face="americanabt">Laughing helps<font></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:44 AM
Tried the patch yet? The P-39 got another 200 hp../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:46 AM
BuzzU wrote:
-
- Tried the patch yet? The P-39 got another 200
- hp..

Wow now that is welcome news indeed/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I dont have the patch yet. I think I will wait for the official version cause I am lame like that but an extra 200hp sure is tempting/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>http://www.km011a0004.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/poser3.jpg <CENTER>
<center><b/><table style="filter:glow[color=#FF0000,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#1A0000"face="americanabt">Laughing helps<font></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:49 AM
BuzzU wrote:
-
- Tried the patch yet? The P-39 got another 200
- hp

Hopefully it gets the speed up to where it should be.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:41 PM
One bump to see if Huckebein_FW has any further comments on my comments.

(Otherwise, just let it go fellows.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When my brother and I built and flew the first man-carrying flying machine, we thought that we were introducing into the world an invention which would make further wars impossible..."

Orville Wright, 1917

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 12:09 AM
The real P-39 was consigned to the bucket of also-rans the minute it was decided to put it into production without supercharging. The prototype was blown, and showed promising performance. Losing the blower hamstrung it and made it useless at altitude. I've never understood why they decided to do that.

The RAF evaluated it and decided it was 'unsuitable' as a pure fighter, and eventually it found it's niche in the ground attack role on the eastern front.

Regarding climb. The 109K4 could climb like a lift, unlike he P39. But, the Yak 3 could climb close to 5000ft/min off the deck. That leaved them both behind.



"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 12:12 AM
EPP_Gibbs

There is no truth in anything you said. You need to read more history, and some charts.

Da Buzz
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