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anarchy52
09-03-2005, 10:46 AM
Yesterday in CoT wingie and myself (FW-190A4) made a tandem attack on a lone B-25 scoring a lot of hits and setting it ablaze. First I was curious...how could he still fly after the number of hits it recieved? It lit up like a christmas tree under 20mm cannon strikes.

Nevermind, we said to ourselves, it is ablaze leaving a long trail of fire behind (after wingies 2 second burst connecting with his left wing) and will go down. He did several minutes later - after running out of fuel.

Compare this to the supposedly invoulnerable FW-190 which can be taken out by 2 20mm shells. Yet nobody seems to care.

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 11:12 AM
aww cheer up, his gunners require a extremely long burst to kill your engine, rip off your wing and a pk isnt that likely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kuna15
09-03-2005, 11:14 AM
B-25 is tough. Maybe more than it should. But then again, I didn't have much negative experience with it, unlike H8K. That is real monster -- I have once pumped 10+ MK108s in it's wings - he was still airborne.

FritzGryphon
09-03-2005, 11:50 AM
In my experience, B-25 burns so easily that it's quite easy to kill. A-20 is similarly easy to light. The wings aren't strong, either.

Offline, I spend far more rounds downing He-111s or even Ju-88s.

Methinks the gunners was keeping you honest. I've seen people so afraid of human-manned guns, they'll lob shells from 300m rather than get in close.

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 01:08 PM
fritz, unless the dm on the 190 has changed, the A series 190s are fairly impoverous to defensive guns

FritzGryphon
09-03-2005, 01:26 PM
fritz, unless the dm on the 190 has changed, the A series 190s are fairly impoverous to defensive guns


Though the engine keeps running, it's fairly easy to damage by .50cal. Same with the pilot, despite the armor.

In any case, I've never seen a B-25 take any large amount of damage without being finished. When I fly one online, I'll be on fire most the time.

F19_Olli72
09-03-2005, 01:53 PM
Well ive flown both against and in B-25 online i dont think its that tough. But just for kicks i had a go with the Fw190 A4 in QMB against B-25.

Heres what i found:

#1: A two second burst is enough to set both wing fueltanks on fire.

#2: A two second burst is enough to totally explode a B-25.

Of course its easier against AI since human gunners are more accurate. But that has nothing to do with DM model.

Anyone can PM me if they want the track.

VW-IceFire
09-03-2005, 05:14 PM
As a pilot of the B-25 I can tell you that while you will recieve some hits that seem from the outside to be nothing at all...on the inside its crippling.

Fuel tank fires will explode the wing most of the time. Control, gunner stations, and every thing is damagable.

I've been shot down alot in a B-25...so its not really invulnerable. The He-111 is similar in toughness. The A-20 is fairly light in comparison.

anarchy52
09-03-2005, 06:20 PM
the point is it was flying at least 5 minutes with engine/fueltank on fire. That should not be possible.

@Olli:

1 second burst ~ 45 20mm shells

FritzGryphon
09-03-2005, 07:24 PM
Flaming fire or black (smoke only) fire?

Flaming fire will destroy the wing, the smoke one will not. Applies to all planes.

anarchy52
09-03-2005, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Flaming fire or black (smoke only) fire?

Flaming fire will destroy the wing, the smoke one will not. Applies to all planes.

flaming fire

FritzGryphon
09-03-2005, 07:34 PM
That is weird.

I just tried it offline. The time it takes for a fire to destroy the wing is quite variable, sometimes immediate (most common), and sometimes a minute or two. The last one made 15 minutes or so, before fuel ran out.

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 08:14 PM
just like in real life then.

u can light up the tanks fairly easily now i think, in the past it was harder.

Kuna15
09-03-2005, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Flaming fire or black (smoke only) fire?

Flaming fire will destroy the wing, the smoke one will not. Applies to all planes.

flaming fire </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember one occasion online when I flew B-29 and one fuel tank was set on fire. I didn't bail, and it took some time for fuel tank to explode.(around 2 mins iirc, maybe even more)

Anyway sometimes it takes longer sometimes shorter... the question is what is average duration of B-25 that is set on fire, and how that differs from other American bombers in game.

VW-IceFire
09-03-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
the point is it was flying at least 5 minutes with engine/fueltank on fire. That should not be possible.

@Olli:

1 second burst ~ 45 20mm shells
Sorry...why shouldn't that be possible.

Fires tend to destroy things at variable rates in game. I've had the wing come right off and I've had it burn for a while before coming off.

One time I even landed and the wing exploded on landing. Was very nasty!

WWMaxGunz
09-03-2005, 11:34 PM
Probably one set of flame graphics no matter the hole and fire size.

AnaK774
09-04-2005, 02:27 AM
Dont worry, beaufighter is even more durable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Olli72
09-04-2005, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
@Olli:

1 second burst ~ 45 20mm shells

I meant i fired a 2 second burst. Not that i hit all rounds with a two second burst. On the track where the B-25 which exploded the "arcade" mode only recorded 4 hits before explosion. 3 in the wing and explosion hit' in the top fuselage behind or near cockpit its hard to see but i as far as i can say it couldve been a 'cluster' of hits all guns hits.

If the arcade mode is anything to go by i hit it less than 10 times. Thats not way too 'tough' for a bomber.

Also, how can you think a bomber is too tough when it requires only one pass to totally explode? Sounds like an aiming issue to me, not a dm issue.

anarchy52
09-04-2005, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Also, how can you think a bomber is too tough when it requires only one pass to totally explode? Sounds like an aiming issue to me, not a dm issue.

Godd@mn forum uberaces.
No it wasn't aiming issue, but I don't have a track, so I can't prove it (long sortie, track only records 30 min). And it DID fly for several minutes on fire AND crashed due to lack of fuel.

You know what else? I think there is no FW-190 DM issue, only aiming issue. Oh my ...I must be a luftwhiner.

F19_Olli72
09-04-2005, 12:26 PM
Im far from an ace, nor did i claim to be one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But perhaps i shouldve put it differently. I only meant that if you dont hit anything vital/spread out hits, you can hit a big plane (as bombers are) many times and itll keep on flying. That goes for all bombers, including He111 and Betty.

It does not mean however, that theres something fishy about the B-25 dm. And that was the point of your post as i understood it.

But if you still think there is, test, make tracks and specifically point to the problem and submit bugreport. Not much else you can do.

Da_Godfatha
09-05-2005, 09:19 AM
I sometimes think that the DM for the Betty and the B-25 got mixed up. The Mitchell is dead meat since this patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif came out. Lights up like a christmas tree and falls apart like a politicians promises!!!!!

F19_Ob
09-05-2005, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Im far from an ace, nor did i claim to be one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not many score 3 late 109's and two fw190 in a single sortie online with an La5.
Modesty is fun but can become quite missinforming sometimes...heh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
But then, I think u actually aim sometimes, and we all know that aiming is cheating. Dont we? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

If u are a non-ace, how do u explain this then?
As I remember five kills are nescessary to become an ace.
http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/sortiedetails.php...5841409&playerid=990 (http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/sortiedetails.php?id=1125841409&playerid=990)

It will be very fun to hear your opinion in this matter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
09-05-2005, 02:20 PM
The B25 does seem a little weaker in 4.01 but, then again, the 151/20s are stronger. If you hit it in the right place, you will chop a wing off/cause a fire with a decent 1s burst.

The suggestion that B25s do not cause attackers any problems is not correct. A short burst from the .50s on the B25 is very likely to give a PK/pink screen/dead engine - attacking from dead 6, which is historical, is lethal.

Ta,
Norris

DONB3397
09-05-2005, 03:28 PM
We fly the B-25J a bit, often in fairly close formation. If the bird gets hit inboard the engines, it lights like a WWII zippo. If you have bombs onboard, it seems to explode almost instantly. Empty, it seems to give 15-30 seconds before it blows. Hits in the engines may cause a fire, but the plane generally doesn't explode. We've often feathered a prop and limped along until fuel burned off. 20 mm inboard are almost always fatal.

LeadSpitter_
09-05-2005, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
Yesterday in CoT wingie and myself (FW-190A4) made a tandem attack on a lone B-25 scoring a lot of hits and setting it ablaze. First I was curious...how could he still fly after the number of hits it recieved? It lit up like a christmas tree under 20mm cannon strikes.

Nevermind, we said to ourselves, it is ablaze leaving a long trail of fire behind (after wingies 2 second burst connecting with his left wing) and will go down. He did several minutes later - after running out of fuel.

Compare this to the supposedly invoulnerable FW-190 which can be taken out by 2 20mm shells. Yet nobody seems to care.

All bombers take a good ammount of 20mm some much much more then others, whats interesting is compair how many 20mm strikes from a nose mounted mg151 to down all bombers. Then with gunpods only in a 109,

Then compair the ammount of hits with 4 hispano, 2 hispano, 1 hispano, to down the same bombers which takes many more strikes.

Try this with many other 20mm ac like the zeros weakest 20mm even .50 cal seem stronger) p39s then russian 20mm b-20 3x in la7 which are so weak to german mg151. Then test 30mm and 50mm the p63s 30mm compaired to mk108 and mk103 is shocking the differences. Even the 50mm in the me262 u4.

test against all flyable bombers with human pilots not ai betty b25 a20 beaugfighter he111 tb3.

make sure human players are in the bombers becuase ai will bail after the first burst of any weapon type, and 2 mg151s will down a ai 190 but not a real player.

The main problem is olegs cannon exploding like AAA with arcade mode when the real fragments of an exploding round who fragment forward only from the velocity of the round. \\|//

I dont know if its weapon strenghts wrong or dms only oleg can tell us that but it seems its both to me.

I dont know about you but in 3.04 i have never had a problem downing any fighter online in one pass with the exception the p39 p63 hurricane yak la lagg3 in a 1-3 second burst with mg151, just like all the real gun camera footage.

still be easily kill in one pass with a 1-3 second burst. But all cries for mg151 to be stronger but not complaints of dms to be fixed. So in this patch we have the yak la lagg p40 p39 p63 hurricane taking 4-6 hits to down while the p47 p38 p51 breakapart in 1-3 hits or exploding into nothing direct tail. Some of the problematic dms since day 1 of this game.

Then the problematic dms of bombers was the beaufighter which can eat 75% of mg151 and still be flying broken cables on fire of course in 3.04

it has always been the same case with the he111 and spitfires hispanos.

It easy to become an ace flying the he111 downing 5-6 spitfires same with the betty downing 5-6 p39s wilcats p40s

any time i fly the b25 or a20 1 pass and your exploded into pieces from 20mm.

its rare but sometimes a bomber will take 3 seconds of mg151 instead of a one second tap.

it sound like just a complaint againt allied bombers you should try it will all ac so it doesnt sound so bias. Taking 3-4 passes to get a victory over a plane that explodes and rips off wings of every ac in 1 pass is what the huge. I mean look at all the reports of battle of britian from hurricane squadrons saying the can down a he111 with a 3 second burst using 150m convergence with 8 .303s flaming both engines. try that in here and show me another thread of someone speaking of that.

It seems everything on these forums gets ignored here with the exception of the luft cause and not all the dm problems of all nations bombers and ac. I hoping 4.02 will be the most realistic patch with many issues sorted out. especially dms.

Kuna15
09-05-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
I sometimes think that the DM for the Betty and the B-25 got mixed up. The Mitchell is dead meat since this patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif came out. Lights up like a christmas tree and falls apart like a politicians promises!!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I've flown Betty in 4.01 campaign for about 120 missions, and when I get fuel leak that means one way crash land ticket. Even with full tank Betty won't go far it can fly for a while but usually not enough to limp back home.
Very unfriendly feature that 'regular' tanks... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And for that kind of damage only few bullets from enemy fighter will suffice.

However I agree with your remark because it can be VERY tough job for one to bring it down instantly even with 20mms in one or two passes. Just one good exposure to the tail sting and it can be over for interceptor. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
G4M is also very manouverable bomber.

LeadSpitter_
09-05-2005, 07:33 PM
^ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also look at the sturmovik dm now vs 190 anton. Oleg said the antons dm was not changes just dm effect was forgot to be added.

I dunno, no patch i remember they can take 200-400 .50 cal strikes. 3.04 the tail would catch fire from 30-50 strikes but instantly flame out and not hurt the pilot, it has always been the strongest radial in game compair to russian radials which die in one strike but dont freeze just wind down slow with no power and pratt and whitney which seize in one one strike.

I dunno i just wish we had a more complete readme of all value changes made to each and every ac.

faustnik
09-05-2005, 08:00 PM
It seems everything on these forums gets ignored here with the exception of the luft cause

Silliness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Mustang III, P-38 L Late and now P-47D Late have been added improvements due to requests from this forum.

The constant crying over a correct Mg151 is amazing. I guess some people, like Leadspitter, prefer it when the LW weapons are not correctly modeled.

anarchy52
09-06-2005, 02:00 PM
Lead, I'm not taking You seriously. Nobody does.

If I would take You serious I'd say that I do not give a d@mn with what weapon the damage was inflicted be it .50, 20mm or 155mm gun. The point is that with an engine and fuel tank ON FIRE you should not be able to fly forever (or until you run out of gas). And you run out of gas only because all planes in FB have only one fuel tank.

Your ranting about the .50 and MG151/20was uncalled for. Control yourself.

Amen.

crazyivan1970
09-06-2005, 04:41 PM
B-25 always had some kind of issues with DM...Actually IMO many twins fly on fire longer then they should.

Badsight.
09-07-2005, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Not many score 3 late 109's and two fw190 in a single sortie online with an La5. are you joking ? that things guns are crazy good . my highest locked pit sortie ever was in a La-5

they are supposed to be that same as the F & FN , but no way in hell dude , maybe its just me not like the other La's gunsites but i dont shred planes in half as easy with any other Lavochkin as i can with the -5

then again , early VVS always do well WRT to that

LeadSpitter_
09-07-2005, 01:23 AM
you all should only person to prove me wrong once was tagert and that was about heaters on b17 gun stations in which he was correct. But still some did not have them the majority did.

prove anything i say wrong, take it as that if you dont take me serious when I post serious boy!

anarchy52
09-07-2005, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
you all should only person to prove me wrong once was tagert and that was about heaters on b17 gun stations in which he was correct. But still some did not have them the majority did.

prove anything i say wrong, take it as that if you dont take me serious when I post serious boy!

The Earth is a flat plate carried by 3 elephants standing on a giant turtle.

Aaron_GT
09-07-2005, 08:49 AM
The suggestion that B25s do not cause attackers any problems is not correct. A short burst from the .50s on the B25 is very likely to give a PK/pink screen/dead engine - attacking from dead 6, which is historical, is lethal.

Indeed - I once did an unescorted mission in a DF server doing a level bomb at about 12k. I got bounced by a number of LW planes and ended up trying to trade altitude for speed. Three of them got shot down. The B25 was largely toast, but I managed to pancake it just into friendly lines. I've never shot down 3 planes in one mission when flying a fighter.

HellToupee
09-07-2005, 10:59 AM
i managed 5 kills in one b25 sortie alone, made it back over the line, however 4 of the 5 were 109s one was 190 which i managed a fluke pk a 190 shotme down after taking a gazillion rounds. I watched a single 190 with mk108s down 3 b25s in one pass just by parking on their six with all 3 gunners shooting at it, unless u pk u cant stop them.

faustnik
09-07-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:


prove anything i say wrong


Oleg already did when he said that the Mg151 beltload was incorrect in 3.04.

Or how about you own intial post about the weak "like throwing tomatos" Mg151 in 3.04, followed later by your "disgust" that anyone would complain about them??? I guess you proved youself wrong?

Some of what you say has merit, but, it is so buried in exaggeration or other untruths that it gets lost.

F19_Olli72
09-07-2005, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
are you joking ? that things guns are crazy good . my highest locked pit sortie ever was in a La-5

they are supposed to be that same as the F & FN , but no way in hell dude , maybe its just me not like the other La's gunsites but i dont shred planes in half as easy with any other Lavochkin as i can with the -5

then again , early VVS always do well WRT to that
The sortie in question i flew La-5 FN. Dont know anything about any difference that you speak of though. But then again, i dont fly the early La 5 much at all mainly cos its not that common plane in GG.

JG5_UnKle
09-07-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:


prove anything i say wrong


Oleg already did when he said that the Mg151 beltload was incorrect in 3.04.

Or how about you own intial post about the weak "like throwing tomatos" Mg151 in 3.04, followed later by your "disgust" that anyone would complain about them??? I guess you proved youself wrong?

Some of what you say has merit, but, it is so buried in exaggeration or other untruths that it gets lost. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif How's that for a deep-fat fried slice of comedy gold...

carguy_
09-07-2005, 05:12 PM
IMO all German cannons have issues with distances above 150m.Anything fired from distance >200m in a attack dive is a waste of ammo.You don`t want to attack a 50cal armed bomber from 70m where MG151/20 or MGFF is deadly ingame.In reality German cannons were effective up to 350m yet in the game you can spray all you want because the bullet that reaches its target has almost no punch.

ShVak has the same issue,Hispano is effective up to 400m.