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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 11:43 PM
A very, very comprehensive review with current means to test these two processors. The link below goes just to the gaming test section.
The Athlon is a 2.2gig and the P4 has 2mgz of L3 cash which has proven effective in gaming over the standard P4.
Neither processor overclocks very well. The Athlon 64 goes to 2.4gig and the P4 to 3.6gig. X-bit believes the manufacturing process at .13 micron is just about exhausted. It means the ongoing models will need a good transition to 90nm technology early next year

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-fx51_13.html

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 11:43 PM
A very, very comprehensive review with current means to test these two processors. The link below goes just to the gaming test section.
The Athlon is a 2.2gig and the P4 has 2mgz of L3 cash which has proven effective in gaming over the standard P4.
Neither processor overclocks very well. The Athlon 64 goes to 2.4gig and the P4 to 3.6gig. X-bit believes the manufacturing process at .13 micron is just about exhausted. It means the ongoing models will need a good transition to 90nm technology early next year

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-fx51_13.html

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:08 AM
Im a PC tech and fallow this stuff a lot. I have always been amazed at how efficiant Athlon processors are, but P-4's scale better at higher CPU clocks. The Athlon is only doing 2.0-2.2GHz and is able to match/beat the P-4 doing 3.2! Thats a hole 1GHz and its still competitive. The 64 bit instructions will help a lot in Window XP 64 bit and when things start to switch over. Its an interesting time for CPU's, thats for sure.

Gib

arcadeace wrote:
- A very, very comprehensive review with current means
- to test these two processors. The link below goes
- just to the gaming test section.
- The Athlon is a 2.2gig and the P4 has 2mgz of L3
- cash which has proven effective in gaming over the
- standard P4.
- Neither processor overclocks very well. The Athlon
- 64 goes to 2.4gig and the P4 to 3.6gig. X-bit
- believes the manufacturing process at .13 micron is
- just about exhausted. It means the ongoing models
- will need a good transition to 90nm technology early
- next year
-
- <a
- href="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display
- /athlon64-fx51_13.html"
- target=_blank>http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu
- /display/athlon64-fx51_13.html</a>
-
-
-



All hail the ME-262 Fliegenm√¬§dchen!

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:14 AM
Pretty cool,

Now they just need to come out with the dual channel memory controller chip and watch them stomp pentium....

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:44 AM
I've just took the plunge and ordered a new base unit (spec in sig). Having spoken to some of the overclocking guys, and reading reviews, I think that I have a balanced and future-proof(ish) system.

IMHO it is too early to adopt the AMD kit, it just won't be mature enough yet, especially considering that native 64-Bit applications are some way off, it's not a trivial task to recompile for 64-Bit registers, and the new motherboard and related RAM technology is still young. As for the EE - I couldn't really justify the extra cost over the 3.06Ghz (they are mightily expensive Mhz when going over 3.06Ghz), which can be overclocked anyway. My main focus was on the motherboard, _FAST_ RAM and fast drives.

Believe it or not, the RAM was the most expensive thing, costing some 370 UK Pounds for 1Gb. It is, however, pretty much recognized as one of the best, if not the best, RAM available. My hope is that, with the Abit board and S-ATA's, I'll be able to push it a bit and have plenty of headroom for when 3.2Gh chips become sensibly priced.

The other thing that I want, but can't quite afford at the mo, is a Vapochill case + water cooling for the motherboard and graphics card. Systems with this kit are seriously quick, 4.2Ghz is a stable figure I've seen.

My personal opinion is, if you are in the upgrade market, go for fast drives, _FAST_ RAM and a good motherboard - that'll be room to grow for a while.

ta,
Matt.


http://www.geekfix.com/shamone.jpg</img>



<font face="verdana, arial, helvetica" size="2" >__________________

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</p>



Message Edited on 09/23/03‚ 11:47PM by ICAG_Bader

Message Edited on 09/23/0311:47PM by ICAG_Bader

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:54 AM
- Pentium 4 3.06Ghz 800Mhz FSB
- Hyperthreading | Abit IC7 Max 3 | 256Mb Radeon 9800
- Pro |
- 2 x WD Raptor 10,000rpm S-ATA's (RAID 0) | 1Gb OCZ
- PC4000 Dual Channel Gold Series DDR |
-
- Coolermaster 'Black Widow' | Zalman 7000-CPU Cooler
- | Track-IR


tell me, did you make that investment just so you could use a sig like that? what purpose does it serve other than to bolster your opinion about yourself or is it shadenfreude(taking pleasure in the suffering/envying of others)?



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RichardI
09-24-2003, 01:37 AM
A litle off this thread's topic, BUT, isn't that new Mac computer a 64 bit processor already (I think it's called the G5)? They claim it's the fastest PC in the world..
I know it won't run Windows programs (will it?), but it just looks great in the TV commercial.

Not true about the speed? just curious

Rich /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

Message Edited on 09/23/0308:39PM by RichardI

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:01 AM
RichardI wrote:
- A litle off this thread's topic, BUT, isn't that new
- Mac computer a 64 bit processor already (I think
- it's called the G5)? They claim it's the fastest PC
- in the world..
- I know it won't run Windows programs (will it?), but
- it just looks great in the TV commercial.
-
- Not true about the speed? just curious
-

Do you know whats really the mind-job with that G5? Its an I-B-M processor in an A-P-P-L-E machine.

The very thought stunts my childrens growth.

I read some of the article. I started at the begining though.. i'm not really concerned with games and such.

I did find the naming convention most interesting...

FX eh? Who else sports that?

Its going to be an interesting year!

Holy-War Alert: (You were warned fanboi!)
If those branding the "FX" name are going to continue to be so "open source" friendly, consumers (yeah, thats you twits that whine about microshaft on slashdot while sporting spec-sigs here) should stop looking at FPS meters and put thier money where thier slogans are.

I'd like to see this FX marriage take a big fat bite out of the purses of those OTHER companies who have been sticking it to consumers for all these years.



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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:26 AM
Well first, the memory controller is on the CPU, and I do think its dual channel. This drastically lowers memory latency, and increases the bandwidth big time. Thats one thing the P-4 had over the Athlon. RAM Bandwidth. Now things are starting to even up.

Unfortunatly with the memory controller on-die, if they want to support DDR2 or some other standard, they would need to make a new die. Not just change the northbridge on the motherboard.

Gib

BM357_TinMan wrote:
- Pretty cool,
-
- Now they just need to come out with the dual channel
- memory controller chip and watch them stomp
- pentium....
-
-



No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:39 AM
Fresshness wrote:

-
- tell me, did you make that investment just so you
- could use a sig like that? what purpose does it
- serve other than to bolster your opinion about
- yourself or is it shadenfreude(taking pleasure in
- the suffering/envying of others)?



It really depends who you are and what your income is.

Many of the serious gamers I know have rigs not far short of that.

Note ... they are not teenagers using the family PC nor are they married with 6 kids to support and they are single on very good incomes.


Their general attitude is that buying a gaming rig every 12 months is pricey but compared to other "guy" hobbies like ski-ing, motorcycling or golf (priced an annual golf club membership lately ??) it is positively cheap.

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:42 AM
I think the AMD64FX-51 is dual channel memory and the AMD64 is single.

From http://techreport.com/reviews/2003q3/athlon64/index.x?pg=1 (an excellent overview/review and comparison with the P4EE)

<quote>
AMD is introducing Athlon 64 chips based on two Hammer variants today, code-named ClawHammer and SledgeHammer. The principal difference between Claw and Sledge is the width of the chip's connection to memory. ClawHammer's memory controller has a single, 64-bit path to RAM, while SledgeHammer's is a dual-channel or 128-bit design.

AMD originally planned for all Athlon 64 chips to be based on ClawHammer, while Opteron workstation/server processors would be based on Sledge. Turns out, though, AMD has decided to intro a top-of-the-line desktop chip with a dual-channel memory controller called the Athlon 64 FX. (Somebody phone NVIDIA marketing!) This chip is essentially a remarked Opteron running at 2.2GHz. To be more specific, the 2.2GHz flavor is dubbed "Athlon 64 FX-51", and it gets no other designation. FX-51. That's it. AMD figures the folks who will be willing to cough up the $733 list price for this baby will know how it performs from having read publications like this one, so there will be no Pentium 4 equivalency games played here.

If you want to play those games, you can pick up a non-FX Athlon 64 like the Athlon 64 3200+. These ClawHammer-based products have a 64-bit path to memory and come in the 754-pin package originally intended for all Athlon 64s. AMD will initially be selling the Athlon 64 3200+, which runs at 2GHz, for $417-a veritable bargain compared to the FX model.
</quote>


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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:43 AM
Excellent comment Galway. Some folks indeed do have more disposable income than others and this is a cheap hobby compared to golfing etc..



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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:16 AM
thanks for the support chaps. Other people post the spec of their boxes, whats wrong with it? It is a hobby and, believe me, it is _much_ cheaper that my previous one (Subaru's) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (think of 8 miles to the gallon if using heavy left foot and muchous expensive parts). As for what it serves, I like technology and enjoy making PC's - the fact that it is that spec reflects my wish to build a pretty fast box (it would be easy to spend another ‚£1500 on top of that btw) and also that it allow me to (hopefully) play games with hi-res, hi-speed graphics - there was no need for that post Freshness. If you 'suffer' from it,that is your problem - not mine.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what the new Pentium chip will be like (codename Prescott I think). It is always an interesting problem when new technology looms. Do you go with the new, young stuff or go with the tried-n-trusted? I guess it will very much be like the P3-P4 thing.

/m

http://www.geekfix.com/shamone.jpg</img>



<font face="verdana, arial, helvetica" size="2" >__________________

<font size="1">Pentium 4 3.06Ghz 800Mhz FSB Hyperthreading | Abit IC7 Max 3 | 256Mb Radeon 9800 Pro |
2 x WD Raptor 10,000rpm S-ATA's (RAID 0) | 1Gb OCZ PC4000 Dual Channel Gold Series DDR |
Coolermaster 'Black Widow' | Zalman 7000-CPU Cooler | Track-IR</font></font></p></p>


</p>



Message Edited on 09/24/03‚ 06:20AM by ICAG_Bader

Message Edited on 09/24/0306:20AM by ICAG_Bader

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 09:26 AM
RichardI wrote:
- A litle off this thread's topic, BUT, isn't that new
- Mac computer a 64 bit processor already (I think
- it's called the G5)? They claim it's the fastest PC
- in the world..
- I know it won't run Windows programs (will it?), but
- it just looks great in the TV commercial.
-
- Not true about the speed? just curious
-
-


The MAcs are very fast, they use RISC i think the g5s instruction set is still considered risc the x86 compatable processors are bogged down by being backwards compatable, plus it works a bit like ddr ram over SD by having 2 instructions per tic. It wont run windows programs it wont run windows, other than games this is an advantage no sh*tty windows just a very good stable secure and good looking operating system based off bsd unix OSX.

If they had OSX for x86 platforms ild use it, i use linux and winblows xp at the mo.




http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg


http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 09:38 AM
ICAG_Bader wrote:
- thanks for the support chaps. Other people post the
- spec of their boxes, whats wrong with it? It is a
- hobby...

If you are going to post your specs, be sure to include what thermal compund you use. And if it isn't Arctic Silver Ceramique like I just got, then you might as well be using hot sauce.

Also if you have the 800mhz FSP P4 then it's 3.0ghz not 3.06 ... 3.06 refers to the 533mhz FSB version.

With regards to these 2 processors (FX51 and P4EE) they are both like $800 Opteron's and Xeon's so they don't count. The Athalon64 3200 would be nice, but there is no advanced Nvidia board for it yet, and it is only single channel so it wouldn't be a good buy. The best buy is still a cheap Nforce2 setup with the Nvidia Soundstorm APU.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
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<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 09/24/0305:31AM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 09:49 AM
ICAG Badger wrote: "thanks for the support chaps. Other people post the spec of their boxes, whats wrong with it?"

I haven't started a post many times, usually with reasonable objectiveness on tech subjects, but I've been surprised how readily some can find fault; maybe its just a bad day. I'm sure most have enjoyed your enthusiasm, I did, but the moods can swing here...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think Prescott will be very competitive, especially when both manufacturers are well established into .09 process. Heat may not be much of an issue then. Supposedly the very first models, 3.4/3.6 gigs, will be coming in early December. Those will still be .13 process and consume a lot of wattage.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 10:17 AM
Two raptors 10000 rpm in raid 0 must kick serious ***. I bought one already to set up my os partition and my game folders, and I love it. I've often thought of getting another but it's not in my budget.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:28 PM
If I'm going to use SATA Raid 0 I would go for two at 7200rpm.
Higher rpm is very expensive and the extra performance doesn't justify the extra cost.
Same for the dual channel memory Athlon 64 FX and the 'new' Pentium 4 EE.
However, hardcore users building the fastest gaming or not systems of today regardless of cost will be buying the new processors.
For the mainstram market the whole game will be played in the pricing.
Rumour has it that Intel is about to introduce a price drop for the P4 in the very near future.
Any mobos with a bundled Athlon 64 might look like a big no no for the mobo manufacturers then.
On one hand they can't trust AMD to bring out enough processors in time and want them to be sold together with the mobos on the other hand they may find themselves buying Athlons to package together with the m/b that may suddenly become very expensive to sell should Intel lowers their prices significantly.
Win XP 64 is still beta and very buggy, same for NVidia nforce 3 chipset,new 64 bit drivers and programs are needed,looks like we're gonna have to play the waiting game.

<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:00 PM
Christos_swc wrote:
- If I'm going to use SATA Raid 0 I would go for two
- at 7200rpm.
- Higher rpm is very expensive and the extra
- performance doesn't justify the extra cost.
- Same for the dual channel memory Athlon 64 FX and
- the 'new' Pentium 4 EE.
- However, hardcore users building the fastest gaming
- or not systems of today regardless of cost will be
- buying the new processors.

Not strictly true dude, lots of guys buy P4 2.4Ghz CPU's because they are very very good for overclocking (like in excess of 3.1Ghz). The secret is cooling, fast RAM and fast drives /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/m

http://www.geekfix.com/shamone.jpg</img>



<font face="verdana, arial, helvetica" size="2" >__________________

<font size="1">Pentium 4 3.06Ghz 800Mhz FSB Hyperthreading | Abit IC7 Max 3 | 256Mb Radeon 9800 Pro |
2 x WD Raptor 10,000rpm S-ATA's (RAID 0) | 1Gb OCZ PC4000 Dual Channel Gold Series DDR |
Coolermaster 'Black Widow' | Zalman 7000-CPU Cooler | Track-IR</font></font></p></p>


</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:51 PM
obviously faster is better, but with all that ram you wont see much unless your doing some video or picture work that requires alot of hd access.

In regards to the 64fx and P4 EE, I think some people may be just guessing in their responses. Pretty much all the answeres to the athlon64 and PIV EE questions are answered in the numerous reviews out yesterday. here are a couple

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030923/index.html
http://anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1884

Seems the 64fx is just a rebadged opteron and the P4 EE is a rebadged xeon.









Message Edited on 09/24/0308:55AM by Supr

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:11 PM
Fresshness wrote:
-- Pentium 4 3.06Ghz 800Mhz FSB
-- Hyperthreading | Abit IC7 Max 3 | 256Mb Radeon 9800
-- Pro |
-- 2 x WD Raptor 10,000rpm S-ATA's (RAID 0) | 1Gb OCZ
-- PC4000 Dual Channel Gold Series DDR |
--
-- Coolermaster 'Black Widow' | Zalman 7000-CPU Cooler
-- | Track-IR
-
-
- tell me, did you make that investment just so you
- could use a sig like that? what purpose does it
- serve other than to bolster your opinion about
- yourself or is it shadenfreude(taking pleasure in
- the suffering/envying of others)?

Freshness,

I remember a while back you said you were leaving the forum. I was a bit sad at the time because I liked your "bombing pilots" sig.

Now your back, flaming a guy because he happens to have a jammed up system and he has it posted in his signature.

After this pointless, jealousy post/jab, I kinda wished you'd stayed gone.



Liege-Killer

http://home.austin.rr.com/jasandtrace/images/archie1.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
09-24-2003, 03:25 PM
I've got the ic7 mainboard - with 2 gig of dual channel ddr - I run FB off a serial raptor - with another 120 gig serial ata and a 120 gig ide and I think an 80 gig ata too.
9800pro128 blah blah.

Sun has come up with a new way of connecting chips. They basically set them right up against eachother - eliminating buss bottlenecks for memory etc. Mainboards and ram and video will probably look more like tiles in the near future.

Sounds like amd has one-upped Intel again, for the time being - all good for us as this will drive down prices.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:38 PM
Well you can‚¬īt compare the P 4 and Athlons mhz number. They are going totally different routes. Athlons try to do as much in each clockcycle whereas the Pentiums try to achieve as many clockcycle as possible.

Thus a Pentium needs to have much higher clock numbers to do the same job as the Athlon achieves with less clock cycles thanks to it‚¬īs quantspeed architecture.

And I would be more interested in a upcoming Prescott vs the Athlon 64 since these will be the same generation. And those test on Longhorn or any other 64 bit OS in 64 bit application so we can see what these CPU:s really are capable of.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:35 PM
People buy 2.4c p4 because they are the same damn chip as the 3.0c, they are just rated to run at that speed.

So for 170 bucks I was able to buy a 2.4 and run my FSB at 270x4 effectivley giving me a 3.2c p4 and that damn thing still runs cooler than the 3.06 p4 system from dell my sister bought.

Most of these 2.4c overclock to 3.0 with no problem at all, are 100% dual prime95 stable at that speed (sadly my sister's new 3 gig dell fails prime after a few hours), and run every bit as cool as the p4 3gig procs selling for 3 times the price.

As for the athlon64, I want one badly, but I think it's worth waiting until summer '04 when the 64 will be running at 3gig and hopefully supporting some faster memory. A 3gig 64bit system should be one hell of a flight sim rig.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:40 PM
Ack... Intel - ADM64 = 200 Bucks... dang.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:54 PM
Hmm, Summer of 2004.
Olympic games in my country.
Actually my city.
Hopeless traffic.
Cops all over.
Got to get out of here.
Athlon 64 FX. at 2.6+gig
Win XP 64.
Certain 64 bit applications for video encoding and a couple of 64bit games.
Some Arctic Silver and I'm outta town.
Yam yam


<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:57 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Do you know whats really the mind-job with that G5?
- Its an I-B-M processor in an A-P-P-L-E machine.

I'm not sure what is in the Mac but IBM's P series
chips are very fast.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:01 PM
HellToupee wrote:
- If they had OSX for x86 platforms ild use it, i use
- linux and winblows xp at the mo.

Isn't OSX essentially one of the BSD flavours with
a similar kernel to the GNU HURD? (born of the same
mach heritage, I think, via NextStep). I suppose
in theory you could create a free OS that would be
very similar to OSX, but I am not sure if a home
brewed string-and-sticking-plaster version would
be as reliable!

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:11 PM
yup - BSD based if I remember correctly, get FreeBSD - the dogs balls.

/m

http://www.geekfix.com/shamone.jpg</img>



<font face="verdana, arial, helvetica" size="2" >__________________

<font size="1">Pentium 4 3Ghz 800Mhz FSB Hyperthreading | Abit IC7 Max 3 | 256Mb Radeon 9800 Pro |
2 x WD Raptor 10,000rpm S-ATA's (RAID 0) | 1Gb OCZ PC4000 Dual Channel Gold Series DDR |
Coolermaster 'Black Widow' | Zalman 7000-CPU Cooler | Track-IR</font></font></p></p>


</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:53 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- be sure to
- include what thermal compund you use. And if it
- isn't Arctic Silver Ceramique like I just got, then
- you might as well be using hot sauce.
-


Hey man.. haven't you heard? Independant studies have proven that Radio Shack thermal compound is actually better than Arctic Silver... and MUCH cheaper.


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ZG77_Nagual
09-24-2003, 08:05 PM
I use only genuine Himalayan Yeti ***z (TM) smells kinda bad but keeps da cpu real cool



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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:23 PM
What? Nvidia vs ATI is over? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Dang, it was fun.

=======================================
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Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 09:14 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- What? Nvidia vs ATI is over?

Nuh, it's just that Arctic silver ceramic Vs French mustard for da cpu is more saucy a subject/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 09:21 PM
Salute CrackFerret

How does the P4 2.53 overclock?

As well as 2.4?


Thanks RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:59 AM
Not sure, if that is basically the same chip as the 3.06 p4 that has a 533fsb then I think you for sure get around 2.8 if you have good aircooling setup (I'm using slk900u heatsink).

If you check here http://www.cpudatabase.com/CPUdb/Showdata.cfm

you'll see that the average overclock takes this proc to 3gig.

That's not as good as the average overclock the 2.4c procs are getting (3323mhz), but still good.

I clocked mine so it was prime stable and ran at 54c or cooler at full load. My mb is an ic7-g and the cpu temps are read off the temp probe in core of cpu, so while the temps seem high they are actually quite normal since a lot of systems are getting this reading from the surface of the cpu.

ZG77_Nagual
09-25-2003, 02:52 PM
I have basically the same board (without the gigabit lan) and a 2.4 b - I think I'll pick up a 'c' - sounds like they clock higher.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg