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View Full Version : Oleg is really just giving us "Bread and Circuses"



Col_Tibbetts
11-20-2004, 03:35 PM
He is very receptive of our demands and is the only software dev I know who acutally listens. However he has only been adding planes or tweaking flight models for a long time now. The big problem of bad AI has lingered for too long and your constant flight model whining allows him to happily ignore it!

I have been playing offline since I got PF since there are no good servers out there yet. War Clouds is the only one that is bearable however with the new "dot" aircraft recognition aid leaving icons on is a complete joke. Get a clue folks. With the uber dots out there now there is no excuse what so ever to have icons on. Well, I am not here to rant about War Clouds. I'll leave that for another thread.

What is absolutely rediculous is the terrible AI. How is it acceptable to "Oleg's Standards" not to allow the ability to direct your wingnuts to attack a SPECIFIC CARRIER!? Why do you have no ability to direct escorting aircraft? Why do escorting aircraft follow one fighter off into a furball leaving you alone?

Sure the new aircraft, dots, and reduced mussle flashes are great. These things are just tweaks of the existing code though. The AI code needs a complete overhaul. I would gladly give up a Beaufighter or A20 for good AI you could count on.

People! Stop the FM/DM whining and start he AI whining. It gives Oleg an excuse not to fix the big problem which is poor AI.

Quit drinking the new aircraft/new map Kool-Aid! The AI can be better.

Grrr.....

Col_Tibbetts
11-20-2004, 03:35 PM
He is very receptive of our demands and is the only software dev I know who acutally listens. However he has only been adding planes or tweaking flight models for a long time now. The big problem of bad AI has lingered for too long and your constant flight model whining allows him to happily ignore it!

I have been playing offline since I got PF since there are no good servers out there yet. War Clouds is the only one that is bearable however with the new "dot" aircraft recognition aid leaving icons on is a complete joke. Get a clue folks. With the uber dots out there now there is no excuse what so ever to have icons on. Well, I am not here to rant about War Clouds. I'll leave that for another thread.

What is absolutely rediculous is the terrible AI. How is it acceptable to "Oleg's Standards" not to allow the ability to direct your wingnuts to attack a SPECIFIC CARRIER!? Why do you have no ability to direct escorting aircraft? Why do escorting aircraft follow one fighter off into a furball leaving you alone?

Sure the new aircraft, dots, and reduced mussle flashes are great. These things are just tweaks of the existing code though. The AI code needs a complete overhaul. I would gladly give up a Beaufighter or A20 for good AI you could count on.

People! Stop the FM/DM whining and start he AI whining. It gives Oleg an excuse not to fix the big problem which is poor AI.

Quit drinking the new aircraft/new map Kool-Aid! The AI can be better.

Grrr.....

Mjollnir111675
11-20-2004, 03:41 PM
And where is the butter and elephants fer that post?!?!?

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-20-2004, 04:12 PM
I like the clowns...they're funny.

Coffee999
11-20-2004, 04:23 PM
Col_Tibbetts is certainly right. PF is a great sim. But the AI takes away from it like no other.

The AI in any sim has never been great. But when AI planes fly into mountains and hills they could easily avoid, you know they won't be there to back you up like you would expect. You would like to think that you aren't alone when you go off for a mission. But you can't depend on your wingman or any other AI for that matter. Which leaves you thinking you are alone.

I love this sim. Never thought I would after being a jet jock for so long.

Get the AI under control I say. Then, just maybe, you will feel like you are part of the battle, and not the only battler.

uhoh7
11-20-2004, 04:31 PM
Where he has it wrong, is when he says: stop talking about the FMs so Oleg will fix the AI.

As if it is one or the other.

It is altothether proper to bring AI problems, provided they are specific. To flame guys who crave an accrute FM in the AC they are flying, and blame them for the state of the AI puts this thread in the category of a troll, nothing more.

You should fly by yourself, hehe

Liquid-Koshed
11-20-2004, 04:51 PM
I gather a realistic & pilot like AI is a big job and difficult to achieve for desk top systems so a complete overhaul is out of the question maybe in the near future a few years or so, but im sure a few minor tweaks is an achievable goal but would still mean a lot of work for the programmers, as for whining I don€t know who oleg actually listens to a few trusted beta testers I would guess who in turn listen to a few trusted buddies but I reckon a bit of whining is ok, if the majority of sim pilots were satisfied nothing would get done after all what drives these guys is the achievement of the best quality sim they can produce.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/keyriced/The.%20best%20chicks.jpg

Hendley
11-20-2004, 04:58 PM
Hmmm. I always reckoned that the AI in this sim is actually really, really good.

Fact is, with any game that has an muliplayer component people will be complaining about the AI. Players get used to human opponents online, go back to offline campaigning, and immediately find the computer lacking.

Objectively speaking--and considering the state of the art of vid games--the IL2 series has REALLY good AI, or so it seems to me.

Aaron_GT
11-20-2004, 05:42 PM
" The big problem of bad AI has lingered for too long"

The AI problem isn't simple, especially for a combat flight sim. If you wanted to find the best tactics then a reinforcement learning approach would make sense as you could avoid any human preconceptions. Due to the amount of processing power it takes for just once scenario and the number of scenarios you would need for training it would take quite a while and you'd have to retune when the FM changes.However you'd end up with AI that does not necessarily match historic procedures or limitations of humans (fatigue, inattentiveness, etc).


Perhaps another way of gathering data is if Oleg can devise a way to process the data for him to analyse hundreds and thousands of track files and learn from the examples there which will include the effects of inattentiveness and common human mistakes. Even then the AI wouldn't take into account all sorts of other factors.

Tuning the AI without preconceptions would be a major research project of its own. I am sure it is being researched, though, in military facilities in many countries as being able to have AI enough such that aircraft can be autonomous and removing the need for human pilots is probably very atttractive.

Hendley
11-20-2004, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Tuning the AI without preconceptions would be a major research project of its own. I am sure it is being researched, though, in military facilities in many countries as being able to have AI enough such that aircraft can be autonomous and removing the need for human pilots is probably very atttractive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there is something few of us had thought of, I'd bet...

The day Oleg comes up with an AI good enough to satisfy the simmers here, is the day that he quits this silly video game business and retires with the multi-million dollar contracts that he'll be showered with by the world's military-industrial complex. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mjollnir111675
11-20-2004, 06:50 PM
True enough Hendley!!

xTHRUDx
11-20-2004, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>People! Stop the FM/DM whining and start he AI whining. It gives Oleg an excuse not to fix the big problem which is poor AI.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AI will always suck no matter what game you buy. Playing against humans is much more stimulating. As an Online player only (no matter what the game is) i could care less what the AI does.

the FM/DM affects both groups of players, the online and offline, which is why you will see more discussion of it and less about the AI

roybaty
11-20-2004, 07:49 PM
Like the posts above, I agree modeling a truly realistic AI wold be a daunting challenge, expecially when you're targeting home PCs with realatively minimal resources.

I find playing online the real challenge, so enhancing systems/damage simulation is what I think should be concentrated on.

sapre
11-20-2004, 07:51 PM
What current AI needs is:

Faster reflex. No more "flying straight under fire" AI
No more TnB'ing P38, F4F, P47.
No more enemy AI chasing you whenever you go, even back to your base.
No more AI zero chasing you in a steep dive at 850kmh. Is it so difficult to add simple script or something to each aircraft to pull up when reaching certain airspeed in dive?

clint-ruin
11-20-2004, 08:44 PM
If you are seriously interested in a technical discussion of AI then I am sure Oleg is very receptive to it.

The reasons AI is so bad in most games:

A) it really is a lot harder than it looks. Really, really, a lot harder than it looks. It takes a lot of complex code from very smart people to make something as stupid as your bog standard computer game AI in 2004.

B) there is not the same pressure to develop exciting AI as there is to make pretty screenshots for IGNGamespyGamespotPCGamer to post with red "exclusive" banners over 10 ad filled pages.

In flightsims you get none of the typical crutches Ai developers get to use in say, FPS or RTS games. The concept of using pathing and nodes goes almost completely out the window for a start. You can give each flying object an awareness window for it to see how far away it is from hitting something, but this is slow as all hell to do for loads of fast moving aware and agile objects, unless you take very severe shortcuts .. which means it's going to look stupid from time to time. How good is the AI in PF? About as good as it can reasonably be expected to be.

Something I wouldn't mind seeing is them trying to pass off some of the realtime work into pre-scripted battles [like an engagement database for plane number vs plane type]. Objects can only track a limited number of other objects as it is right now, I don't think we would lose a lot by taking the [limited] realtime awareness for objects and changing it to pre-computed playback. Lots and lots of savings to be made for anything further than a few KM from the player.

The other thing I'd love is for some kind of choking prevention - stopping the kind of frame rate killing that you get from dumping a whole bunch of objects next to say a BB which can track and fire at all of them. Like realtime tesselation for models, except for AI. Don't have the foggiest how they'd go about doing it given the limitations of the current code though.

Bearcat99
11-20-2004, 08:59 PM
This is the best flight sim AI in the industrty.... I dont know what some of you expect but this AI is head and shoulders above any other I have seen.

Mjollnir111675
11-20-2004, 09:02 PM
And..................
Lets not forget they are making this sim on "Bleeding Edge" technology.

Aaron_GT
11-21-2004, 03:55 AM
Clint wrote:
"A) it really is a lot harder than it looks. Really, really, a lot harder than it looks. It takes a lot of complex code from very smart people to make something as stupid as your bog standard computer game AI in 2004."

Yep. The only real way to do it is to do it is probably to learn it or evolve it (There are various approaches you could use). Once developed in this way the job would be then be to do rule extraction on the learned system and then devise a system to recognise situations and activate the correct rules. Recognising the situations is not trivial. Plus it needs to make human mistakes or follow standard SOPs for each air force. And then it all has to run on a PC alongside all the FM modelling. It's non-trivial. (Actually a multi processor or multi core system is probably ideal for this, though - run the AI in a separate thread and use whatever resources are there!)

Aaron_GT
11-21-2004, 03:57 AM
P.S. Where I work someone actually looked at evolving AI behaviours using Quake as an engine for the investigations (AI in Quake is a much simpler problem - far fewer degrees of freedom). He needed 40 PCs running flat out 24-7 to work on it.

John_Stag
11-21-2004, 04:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
He is very receptive of our demands and is the only software dev I know who acutally listens. However he has only been adding planes or tweaking flight models for a long time now. The big problem of bad AI has lingered for too long and your constant flight model whining allows him to happily ignore it!

I have been playing offline since I got PF since there are no good servers out there yet. War Clouds is the only one that is bearable however with the new "dot" aircraft recognition aid leaving icons on is a complete joke. Get a clue folks. With the uber dots out there now there is no excuse what so ever to have icons on. Well, I am not here to rant about War Clouds. I'll leave that for another thread.

What is absolutely rediculous is the terrible AI. How is it acceptable to "Oleg's Standards" not to allow the ability to direct your wingnuts to attack a SPECIFIC CARRIER!? Why do you have no ability to direct escorting aircraft? Why do escorting aircraft follow one fighter off into a furball leaving you alone?

Sure the new aircraft, dots, and reduced mussle flashes are great. These things are just tweaks of the existing code though. The AI code needs a complete overhaul. I would gladly give up a Beaufighter or A20 for good AI you could count on.

People! Stop the FM/DM whining and start he AI whining. It gives Oleg an excuse not to fix the big problem which is poor AI.

Quit drinking the new aircraft/new map Kool-Aid! The AI can be better.

Grrr..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm curious; when you call the AI "terrible," what are you using as a yardstick? Compared to what, human players?

Unfair comparison, to say the least.

clint-ruin
11-21-2004, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
P.S. Where I work someone actually looked at evolving AI behaviours using Quake as an engine for the investigations (AI in Quake is a much simpler problem - far fewer degrees of freedom). He needed 40 PCs running flat out 24-7 to work on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup sounds familiar :&gt;

The 'smart' approaches using very nondeterministic or neural network methods are just plain not fast enough, or at least, not fast enough to be smart on a PC in realtime with the kinds of numbers of objects you need to have going around at once. If they go for using the engagement database approach and pull something smart out of that, they firstly need to make sure that the data actually works [not fun, or at least, weeks more automation work], then work out a way to store such a thing in memory [or a way to load it in the middle of combat so the player doesn't notice].

It's sort of like the FMs - Oleg and co are probably very very well aware of how to make their system more accurate than it is, what can be prescripted and what can't. They're not up against a problem that needs to be solved, they're working on a problem that simply needs more cycles to do "properly" than are available on a consumer PC. That classic problem of the AI not pulling enough lead, wasting all its ammo .. it would be incredibly simple to make it hit the player, given that the AI can know the exact position and heading and speed of all the objects in the game. Making it realistically stupid in that regard is more the problem :&gt;

IBM spend rather a lot of money on a machine and software that can occasionally beat an expert human at chess. Much much simpler problem, just in terms of the fixed number of states the game can be in at any point - and they have the money to do proper backtracking AI with every likely future state of the board loaded in memory at once. And that's still not good enough to beat a human 100% of the time. People should give Maddox some credit :&gt;

x__CRASH__x
11-21-2004, 05:22 AM
Online flying against real pilots is too much for you, eh?

Enjoy the AI you got. Can't fly with the big dogs? Stay in the kennel.

P.S. Warclouds is tons o fun. Remove the stick from your "you know where" and try to enjoy the GAME, and stop being so d@mn elitist.

Aaron_GT
11-21-2004, 08:05 AM
Clint wrote:
"The 'smart' approaches using very nondeterministic or neural network methods are just plain not fast enough, or at least, not fast enough to be smart on a PC in realtime with the kinds of numbers of objects you need to have going around at once."

That's why you need to either go for

(a) a set of best-guess rules and use, perhaps, a genetic algorithm to mix-and-match the best set. (This still means you are at the mercy of the developers guessing the best set, but you can at least prescript, to a certain extent, the sort of things airforces used as SOPs during WW2) and then use this to form the basis of a battle management system as you suggest.

or

(b) Use a neural net and no preconceptions (or at least fewer preconceptions - you need to make some assumptions to make the problem even slightly tractable!) and then do rule extraction. Rule extraction's hardly trivial.

As noted, for an FPS the problem is a lot simpler. The person at work looking at this with Quake (it was a convenient tool to examine AI behaviour with) using reinforcement learning needs a lot of computing horsepower to try and generate the rules for a relatively modest problem.

As Hendley said, if Oleg cracks it on a PC it's the last we'll see of this sim series!

HeinzBar
11-21-2004, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:

I have been playing offline since I got PF since there are no good servers out there yet. War Clouds is the only one that is bearable however with the new "dot" aircraft recognition aid leaving icons on is a complete joke. Get a clue folks. With the uber dots out there now there is no excuse what so ever to have icons on. Well, I am not here to rant about War Clouds. I'll leave that for another thread.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
No disrepect, but how different would you do it? How would you improve the so-called poor servers out there? Sure, the DOTS are ugly and stand out like a sore thumb, but they still don't tell you what type of plane they are. WC, IMHO, is the best compromise we have for the poor visiability model found w/ this current engine.

Being clueless, I would like to hear your improvements and why you haven't implemented them in your own server?

HB

Col_Tibbetts
11-21-2004, 09:30 AM
HeinzBar,

How would I improve War Clouds. Simple, turn the icons off. It is a great server aside from that. Yes. It is possible to play with icons off. I did it on the BM357 "full switch" servers all the time when they were up and I had a blast. I got kills, helped my teammates, all with out map icons either. If you know the map you can navigate too. Finding a carrier online is a little harder now but if you remember which coordinates it was in you can easily find it with the new "dots" system.

We have all been playing this sim for a long time and we are all grown up now. Its time we graduate from the icons crutch.

Now on to the AI issue. I agree that AI is hard to code. However it would be very easy to give players more control over them. Why can't we direct them to attack specific ships for example! Why can't we direct escorting aircraft to return and help us when they stupidly get off on a furball? There is a real deficientcy here folks.

I just wish Oleg would apply his "high standards" to the AI routines thats all.

Wallstein
11-21-2004, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This is the best flight sim AI in the industrty.... I dont know what some of you expect but this AI is head and shoulders above any other I have seen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, pal! Now your´e talking!

I wasn´t flying in Poland, Stalingrad, Crimea or Pacific decades ago. And according to what I have experienced thanks to AI, I´m happy that I never did. The AI is intelligent enough to give the thrill...

Let´s enjoy the good game and wait fore more of them, like the BOB etc...
Wallstein

Da_Godfatha
11-21-2004, 01:28 PM
Hey Crash, not everybody has a internet connection. Alot of would-be fans (and customers) may get turned off by silly AI. When all the good servers are full, I like to every now and then play a mission or campaign. Besides, most servers have everyone flying a F4U-1C or the LA-7's. My silly P-40 or my silly A-20 has no chance!!

Weather_Man
11-21-2004, 01:38 PM
The AI has been improved greatly since 2 years ago. It's not like Oleg has made no effort in this regard. Sure, it has shortcomings, but at least AI will BnZ now.

mortoma
11-21-2004, 03:11 PM
You onliners have some points but there are tons of us offliners too. I hate online Dogfight rooms, as they are mindlessly boring. I don't particularly like Coops because all the guys/girls wander off and do their own thing and there's no cooperation. Then, even worse is the waiting around for hours for Coops/Online Wars to start. Also there are huge chunks of whole days in a row where there are hardly any Coops to wait for.

Then, even worse yet is online lag, which makes aircraft appear to float like a butterfly or other strange unrealistic behavior, or warp off at warp factor 3 like on Star Trek!!! Then even worse than anything so far is the fact that there are lots of rooms that require membership and therefore are inaccessible!! Both on Ubi and HL. I gave online many hours of a chance, didn't enjoy it much.


No thanks, I'll spend my time flying offline and hoping to see fairly decent AI someday. Someday!!..http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-21-2004, 03:30 PM
The AI (up to 3.00, don`t have 3.01) IS GOOD, VERY GOOD AND A CHALLENGE.

Some of you who put down the AI haven`t seen how it was originally and I would heartedly agree with others who say you are comparing AI with Humans online or themselves. To fly against an AI and think, "I wouldn`t attack that that 109 using such n such a manouever because I`ll lose energy meaning I cannot recover to deal with the 2 extra Spits coming this way" is naive.

What we consider is simple and logical like walking through a door succesfully still gives present day AI a headache - Tom Clancy`s rainbow Six series anyone?

AI in IL2 is the BEST I`ve seen in ANY flight sim (and I`ve flown a few), not only that but Oleg is continuously working on improving it with each succesive version. AND HE LISTENS!

The day Oleg creates an AI that can fight and fly like a Human Being using prethought and intuition will be the day that Oleg will be snapped up by the military or similar -as others have wisely pointed out!

Enjoy it while you have it.

Howie A
11-21-2004, 03:56 PM
Its a matter of expectation and what's reasonable. Though I could wish for some improvements the AI is very challenging, and I fly against average and veteran. The day its even possible for it to be comparable to humans is when the average gamer power PC is 3 times the present.

Bearcat99
11-21-2004, 06:01 PM
My only beef with the AI is when I call for help often I will see several AI planes flyijg around.... I have even tried to drag an AI bandit to my AI mates and call for help and more often than not the fly right by them. As far as the enmy AI.... they are quite challenging. If yiu find them too easy to beat then its time to alter the scenario... give yourself an inferior plane,change the enemy to friendly ratio...... make your wingmen rookies, while this AI could use improvement as I said earlier... it is by no means "bad". Since 3.0 I have yet to be shot down by an AI wingman...... they will even back off if you fly into the path.. at least for a bit.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-21-2004, 10:23 PM
C'mon guys, give their mindless, scripted, randomly generated but brave AI souls a break will you? I know there are far more than just a few instances where your AI wingman saved your day or, on the other hand, the enemy AI ace blasted your @$$ out of the sky. At least that happened to me.

While there are gripes and that sometimes (many times?) they behave strangely, I think this sim managed to portray one side of human in its AI: randomness.

Ofcourse that won't give excuse when you got chased by the enemy and his wingman behind you then you see your wingman flying behind the enemy's wingman and doing nothing... He just stuck in chasing the one that threatens you most while ignoring the other. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But that brings amazement to me.

boohaa
11-21-2004, 11:17 PM
I agree completly in that Oleg needs now to address the AI somewhat.But there seems to be different ideas as to what needs addresing.

Yes,I would love for my commands to be better executed.What I really want though is for Oleg to give us more AI routines than what we have now.I remember him writing that they have a fighter and a bomber AI in FB.

Well there you go.Fight a plane that is clearly supposed to be a turn fighter in your B&Z'er and you have to deal with a plane that has only one fighter routine and so has awesome climb and zoom capabilities.Yes there are differnces felt and seen when you take a dora up against a Zeke....the speed difference that is.Yes you can extend and extend and then turn around as everyone here says is the way it was done.....this is bull****.A super heavy plane with a powerful motor can dive down and then zoom up really high.But so can the "fighter AI"in IL2(planes that shouldnt be able to)which is wrong and should be corrected.

Fight a bomber routine AI and there pretty good.Slow manuevers and such and no tight turns or zoom climbs.

But we really need Oleg to add maybe two more routines or modules.Give us two types of fighters....one turn and one zoom climb AI and well be set.

Thanks for listening,
Dale

JR_Greenhorn
11-21-2004, 11:38 PM
It seems to me like the complaints aren't about the AI in general, but the player's commands falling on deaf ears. I usually don't have problems, but I don't give commands very often. Your mileage will vary, I guess.



Anyone trying to complain about AI behaviour (not related to commands ordered by the player) needs to spend some time with the FMB. Once you learn what it takes to make the AI behave credibly, you'll figure out its not as much a problem of the coding as it is a problem of setting waypoints and such. In generated campaigns, I see lots of stupid AI tricks (such as whole flight into hills), but I can set up single missions with the AI flying at low alts with no problems.

For instance, the AI does an excellent job of flying escort if the waypoints are properly "set." If there is escort problems in campaigns, its a problem with the campaign generation and not the AI.

As far as AI tactics go, I recently flew a wonderful battle with 4 Hs 129s vs. my lone A-20G. The AI Hs 129s mercilessly tried to blast me with their big guns--sometimes successfully--and they would do much manouvering as well as make ground attack-style dives to attack me.
Flying conventional fighters vs. the same flight of planes, and they do the usual gentle bomber-type evasive manouvers.

SeaFireLIV
11-22-2004, 03:13 AM
I really don`t have problems with Commanding my wingmen/Squad when i`m leader. If I call for help, the AI, even my wingman rookie is a lot quicker to get on the enemies tail. Other wingmen will dive in if I call `Help!` BUT WITHIN REASON....

But i`m wondering just how helpful you want the AI to be? Do you want it to be realistically helpful? As in they will help ONLY if they are not in a fight themselves and only if they can actually REACH you in time? - Or UNrealistically helpful? Meaning that they`ll come to your aid even if they`re being shot to pieces, even if they`re trying to help another pilot and even if they`re too far to get to you?

I remember once beingchased by 3 109s and I was in deep trouble, I called for help. `We are sending Support` the Tower replied. 5 minutes later, still no support -
`What the hell`s happening to the support, useless AI` was my thinking and I was shot down.

Later, when I checked the REPLAY, I saw that the 3 plane team on the way to help me had been intercepted by 4 110s, THAT`S why they couldn`t reach me!

Now wouldn`t you guys prefer REALISTIC AI that helps only if it can and not simply teleports to you no matter what the situation it might be in? Because whine long enough and Oleg might even have them do that for you - AI in middle of fight 10 miles away, you call for help and he immediately appears behind the bogey`s that`s on you!

I don`t want that.

Think about you online games with friendly HUMAN Wingmen. Are your guys saying that you`re HUMAN wingman has never fouled up? Never been too late when you needed him NOW? Have you whined at him again and again cos he failed to protect you more than once? No, I don`t think so.

But then again, the AI can`t respond and defend itself, can it?

Weather_Man
11-22-2004, 11:11 AM
^^ I like that post. A little perspective is always nice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

foxfire1941
11-22-2004, 02:54 PM
Col_Tibbetts,

Why don't you quit your whining? If it's so bad, why don't you make a better one?? Some people are never happy about the things offered to them, especially for free.

Quit your whining and get online. If you dont like dots or icons then go somewhere else and play, cause we are not playing by your rules.

Get a life!

Col_Tibbetts
11-22-2004, 03:53 PM
Whoa! Read the post man! I love the dots. It is the best compromise for visibility in my opinion. Sheesh!

Also I am only complaining about the fact that we are very limited in how we can interact with the AI. Oleg could easily add the ability to direct our wingnuts to attack specific targets or to not drop their bombs unless ordered to, etc. This hasn't been changed since day one of this sim. I would rather have this than some of the new planes that have come down the line.

The bomb thing is the most annoying. There is nothing like flying 20 mins across the Midway map only to have your wingnuts drop their bombs after only ONE round hits them!

You can't blame a guy for whining about that!

air_malik
11-22-2004, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps another way of gathering data is if Oleg can devise a way to process the data for him to analyse hundreds and thousands of track files and learn from the examples <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think all we need are bowls full of ferret neurons. I figure if rat nurons in a petri dish can fly (http://www.hoise.com/vmw/04/articles/vmw/LV-VM-11-04-29.html) a simulator, a bowl full of ferret neurons should be able to provide adequately challenging AI.

Mjollnir111675
11-22-2004, 04:07 PM
Nah ferret neurons would be WAY over modeled!Try prairie-dog nuerons!!!