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XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted on 10/16/03 02:23AM (server time: GMT 0)

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T-2 TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE
HEADQUARTERS AIR MATERIEL COMMAND
WRIGHT FIELD, DAYTON, OHIO
SUMMARY REPORT
NO. F-SU-1111-ND

ME-262 A-1 PILOT'S HANDBOOK
DATE PREPARED 10 JANUARY 1946
RELEASE DATE 15 JULY 1946

SECTION 2 PILOT OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS:
TO START JET UNIT DURING FLIGHT:
PG 13

a. Do not start above 4km (13,100 ft) because of fire hazard.
(1) Reduce airspeed to 300 km/hr (186 mph).
(2) Throttle closed.
(3) Turn on fuel pump.
(4) Press ignition button throttle until rpm increases by 1000.
(5) Open fuel selector valve.
(6) Advance throttle slowly to idling position.
(7) Release ignition button when rpm is constant.
(8) Adjust rpm to that of other unit.
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Has anyone ever tried this proceudre in the game to see if it works?





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Message Edited on 10/15/0307:26PM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted on 10/16/03 02:23AM (server time: GMT 0)

<div style="width:400;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=4)">

T-2 TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE
HEADQUARTERS AIR MATERIEL COMMAND
WRIGHT FIELD, DAYTON, OHIO
SUMMARY REPORT
NO. F-SU-1111-ND

ME-262 A-1 PILOT'S HANDBOOK
DATE PREPARED 10 JANUARY 1946
RELEASE DATE 15 JULY 1946

SECTION 2 PILOT OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS:
TO START JET UNIT DURING FLIGHT:
PG 13

a. Do not start above 4km (13,100 ft) because of fire hazard.
(1) Reduce airspeed to 300 km/hr (186 mph).
(2) Throttle closed.
(3) Turn on fuel pump.
(4) Press ignition button throttle until rpm increases by 1000.
(5) Open fuel selector valve.
(6) Advance throttle slowly to idling position.
(7) Release ignition button when rpm is constant.
(8) Adjust rpm to that of other unit.
</div>

Has anyone ever tried this proceudre in the game to see if it works?





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Message Edited on 10/15/0307:26PM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:46 AM
Wow, this is funny! I had just thought about coming here to post the very same thing and make a few observations about the 262.

First, I would like to say that this plane is a serious blast to fly. I really think 1C did an excellent job with the FM in this patch. In 1.0 it seemed to act more like a rocket plane than an early jet. Now it responds as it should; get her fast and she keeps the speed very well. You can decide when to engage and when to run, and nothing short of a La-7 AI can remotely keep up with you.

Other than the wacky high altitude model of the plane, (Already addressed) the ability of restarting the engine in flight is the only other thing missing from this wonderful FM. I sincerely hope that this issue is addressed, along with the inability to extinguish an engine fire.

I may be wrong, because this is mere speculation, but you should be able to dive to put the fire out (At least a small chance) shut off the fuel, and limp home on one engine. As it is now, once you have an engine fire, you WILL explode (Eventually) no matter what you try to do to put the fire out. I would love to know if there was a recommended procedure that RLM documented on dealing with this issue, but I just dont have enough material on the plane.

I hope these minor items are addressed as I am seriously looking forward to late war bomber intercept missions against the B-17 (Drools!)

(Now if I could only figure out why I get such crappy frames when I fire the big guns, but I think I will go to the tech forum to ask that question)

Thanks again 1C!


(One other thing. This thread was originally started in ORR, and I dont really understand why it was bounced into this forum. The post deals with a real ability of the aircraft that was either incorrectly modeled into the game, or was overlooked by mistake. In any event, it IS a game bug/issue and should not have been locked, IMHO.)

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg






Message Edited on 10/16/0307:49AM by Fehler

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:51 AM
Funny Fehler, I just posted this in ORR.

Whenever an engine catches fire in the 262 you can shut it down and put out the fire. But it keeps re-lighting again and again until it finally explodes. If this is a bug, I hope it gets looked at. If I am wrong, then I apologize. It just seems to me that if you shut the engine down it shouldn't keep catching fire repeatedly.

I also posted about my system locking up for a split second whenever I fire the 262's guns. I have an upgrade on the way, I really hope this solves my problem.

I hope the other issues you brought up are examined as well. And the B-17 can't get here fast enough. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Check us out at JG.51.com


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XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:01 AM
-
- I also posted about my system locking up for a split
- second whenever I fire the 262's guns. I have an
- upgrade on the way, I really hope this solves my
- problem.
-
- I hope the other issues you brought up are examined
- as well. And the B-17 can't get here fast enough.


Yeah, I typed out my reply and when I went to post it, the thread was locked.. LOL

While we are on the subject though, I dont think my system is THAT bad, I run AMD XP2600, 1 gig PC2700 DDR, and a 128 FX 5200 card. I noticed (Oddly enough) that in "Perfect mode" I dont get the momentary freezes as much as the muzzle flash seems to be greatly reduced, but of course, the rest of the flight is fairly choppy. Also, it seems to be less choppy/laggy when I am not zoomed in when firing. I wonder if this is a game bug/deficiency, but I guess we will never know since we got bounced from ORR. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:15 AM
Yeah, your system sounds good. That is unfortunate to hear that you have the same problem with a better system. I have 2800XP with Barton, Audigy 2 ZS, 768 of 2700RAM, and a 9800-Pro on the way. Hope it helps at least.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~fiveds/images/anthony1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:17 AM
From what I understand, the firing lag with the 262, is simply because the 4xMK108's are spawning so many objects on screen when they fire. They are firing at nearly the same rate of fire for heavy machineguns, yet they are showing every second round (machine guns only show every 4th round, or so). When combined with the large muzzle flashes, that's a serious amount of graphics your putting on screen.

I do find it rather odd that I can't keep an engine fire in the 262 put out, no matter what I do. It's a bit frustrating.

However, mid air restarts with jet engines are very difficult. This is true for modern jet engines as well. It is one of the few limitations jet engines, and turbines have compaired to piston engines. Piston engines, the combustion process is neatly tucked away inside layers of engine; it doesn't really care what is going on outside, so lng as it's getting fed air, fuel and spark. Jets, on the other had, have their combustion process all hanging out in the slipstream. It's fine, if it's already running, but lighting one on the move is about as easy as lighting a fire in a hurricain.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:46 AM
Just wanted to mention that this only happens in 262 and it only happens in cockpit view. When firing without cockpit or from external everything is fine. And it pauses even if I only fire one burst. This post isn't refuting what you are saying HV, I'm just putting this out there.

And the engines always reigniting is definitely annoying.

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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 10/16/0308:48AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:23 AM
Well, in a way, I am glad I am not the only one experiencing this problem. I have been banging my head for some time trying to figure out a fix for this. (Stuttering issue)

I started flying a 262 off-line campaign using DCG and I try to fly it as much as I can on GG server when the option exists. It's really a LOT of fun! It also makes you appreciate the fact that RLM needed cover aircraft to guard the 262 during take-off and landings. You really have your stuff hung out when coming into a long slow glide path to land. I can see why so many 262's were lost at that point - Just another plus for the sim and the realism it delivers!

As far as the engine restart issue, I read that one of the ways they improved the endurence of the aircraft was to fly at high altitudes on one engine only to conserve fuel. Restarts were relatively easy below 15,000 feet, but pilots were encouraged NOT to attempt one engine landings due to the danger involved - unless forced to (Obviously).

I am just wondering if this was an accidental omission, or some sort of software limitation. If it was the latter, we are stuck with it I guess. If it was the former, let's get it fixed... cant be that hard. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:36 AM
Tagert,
Related to this question, can anyone explain what might have happened here:

I was doing bomber intercept missions in me262, anyway I had flown through and ahead the bombers, but I was relatively close to ground, maybe 1,500 ft, when coming head on I saw one of my own wingman. I hardly had time to avoid head on collision, and we passed probably 20 ft apart, but straight away I had my left engine flame out, with strong yaw to left, straight away I pulled throttle back to idle, but I couldn't regain control of the plane, it pulled left and rolled left and 4 seconds later I augered into the ground in disbelief! <:-o

I did not save track, unfortunately. I had momentarily gone to external view to see if I had all control surfaces, which looked fine.

Can anyone shed light on why my plane might keep yawing left after I pulled back throttle. Was it into flat spin?

I think I will build some missions to try and test this theory.

Scared the bejeesus out of me though; first flight sim to do that!

Pat.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:03 AM
Hunde_3.-JG.51 wrote:
- Funny Fehler, I just posted this in ORR.

Yeah.. I dont know why snoopy moved it over here? In that if it dont allow you to restart per procedure that would be a... BUG? Or a design error.. that is if they intended you to not be able to re-start.. then it is not a BUG because they ment it not to be albe to restart.. But in light of the info I provided I think we should be able to restart the eng.. But following the procedure I have not be able too.. But I only tried twice.. Was wondering if ANYONE has been able to restart the eng in flight?




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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:12 AM
Fehler wrote:
- First, I would like to say that this plane is a
- serious blast to fly.

Agreed! A BLAST... Pun intended! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I really think 1C did an
- excellent job with the FM in this patch. In 1.0 it
- seemed to act more like a rocket plane than an early
- jet.
- Now it responds as it should;

Agreed 100%! They had the eng drag model all wrong.. thus they had to fudge the thrust in 1.0. Now it feels right and hits all the marks +/-10%

- get her fast and she keeps the speed very well.

Yup!

- You can decide when
- to engage and when to run, and nothing short of a
- La-7 AI can remotely keep up with you.

Yup!

- Other than the wacky high altitude model of the
- plane, (Already addressed) the ability of restarting
- the engine in flight is the only other thing missing
- from this wonderful FM.

Agreed... and the ability to TURN OFF THE FUEL!! Which would keep the darn thing from catching fire again and again and again!

- I sincerely hope that this
- issue is addressed, along with the inability to
- extinguish an engine fire.

Which is why I wonder why snoopy moved it here.. I thought it qualified as a bug?

- I may be wrong, because this is mere speculation,
- but you should be able to dive to put the fire out
- (At least a small chance) shut off the fuel, and
- limp home on one engine.

Agreed.. I have been able to put em out like that.. but sense we cant turn off the fuel.. she comes back.

- As it is now, once you
- have an engine fire, you WILL explode (Eventually)
- no matter what you try to do to put the fire out.

Yup /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- I would love to know if there was a recommended
- procedure that RLM documented on dealing with this
- issue, but I just dont have enough material on the
- plane.

RLM? Real Life Manual? If so, YES in that the procedure in the manul I have has one for turning it on in flight and just before that turrning it off! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I hope these minor items are addressed as I am
- seriously looking forward to late war bomber
- intercept missions against the B-17 (Drools!)

ME TOO! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- (Now if I could only figure out why I get such
- crappy frames when I fire the big guns, but I think
- I will go to the tech forum to ask that question)

Hmmmm I know there was something on that once.. and I think it was SOUND CARD related.. Check out the MUD MOVER's web sight.. they had a recomended sound setting that.. if I remember right fixed that for me!!

- Thanks again 1C!

Agreed 100%


- (One other thing. This thread was originally
- started in ORR, and I dont really understand why it
- was bounced into this forum. The post deals with a
- real ability of the aircraft that was either
- incorrectly modeled into the game, or was overlooked
- by mistake. In any event, it IS a game bug/issue
- and should not have been locked, IMHO.)

Agreed 100%

Unless you CAN turn them back on and it is just that nobody has tried hard enough to TEST IT? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:14 AM
psaunder wrote:
- Tagert,
- Related to this question, can anyone explain what
- might have happened here:
-
- I was doing bomber intercept missions in me262,
- anyway I had flown through and ahead the bombers,
- but I was relatively close to ground, maybe 1,500
- ft, when coming head on I saw one of my own wingman.
- I hardly had time to avoid head on collision, and we
- passed probably 20 ft apart, but straight away I had
- my left engine flame out, with strong yaw to left,
- straight away I pulled throttle back to idle, but I
- couldn't regain control of the plane, it pulled left
- and rolled left and 4 seconds later I augered into
- the ground in disbelief! <:-o
-
- I did not save track, unfortunately. I had
- momentarily gone to external view to see if I had
- all control surfaces, which looked fine.
-
- Can anyone shed light on why my plane might keep
- yawing left after I pulled back throttle. Was it
- into flat spin?
-
- I think I will build some missions to try and test
- this theory.
-
- Scared the bejeesus out of me though; first flight
- sim to do that!
-
- Pat.

Hmmmm no sorry Pat.. I got some guesses but no real reason why that happned.. Only guess is something got dmg.. ie maybe you guys hit.. but in such a way that it didnt show the damg externally? In that I have had situaions in the past where I lost ctrl in other plans in near misses with no visalbe dmg?


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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:29 AM
P.S. If you guys like Me262 info check this link out

http://mach1.luftarchiv.de/mach1.htm

They reference the flight manual I have on pg13 it describes the effect of the controls post a certain point near the speed of sound.. that is the same description chuck yeager gave for the controls post breaking the speed of sound... NOT SAYING the Me262 did it.. but it is sure interesting that the effect was noticable the same.. The only thing Im not clear on is if Chuck Yeager noticed the effect just prior to breaking the speed of sound or just after breaking the speed of sound? I seem to recall it was after!?



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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:01 AM
"tagert wrote:
Hunde_3.-JG.51 wrote: Funny Fehler, I just posted this in ORR.

Yeah.. I dont know why snoopy moved it over here? In
that if it dont allow you to restart per procedure
that would be a... BUG? Or a design error.. "

Hi Tagert,

I don't think its a bug or bad coding; like many issues people have with some realism aspects of the sim, they have to code everything - this wasn't coded.

I know that's elementary here, and no one here is complaining, but it's easy to forget. I'm just glad they've taken the model this far! It is impressive.




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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:51 AM
Hi Tagert!

Yes I have tried many times (Probably 40 or more) and have not been able to restart the engine, so I dont think it is coded for an air restart. That's a shame because it could be done IRL.

It's funny that someone posted about losing an engine for no apparant reason at low altitude. Just yesterday, I was on Greatergreen flying the 262 and bounced a P47 that was really really low to the ground. I hesitate to post this because it could be used as a good defensive tactic if I am correct! I flew by the P47 fast, like 850 KPH IAS. I fired a shot and totally missed him (Still working on high speed deflection shooting). He started to pull up tightly, so I went under him. I was really close to the ground, but I am positive I didnt hit. I slowly started to pull up to the right and immediately discovered my left engine on fire. I ended up having to bail. My first thought was.. did I suck up some rocks or something into my intake? LOL Then, was there some sort of weird air vortex that made my engine ignite? Or perhaps sudden unexplained engine fires are modeled in the game, that would be kinda cool - frustrating, but highly realistic! I really dont know the answer to this, but I will probably spend a lot of time tomorrow trying to duplicate it. If I do, Ill make a track for sure!

If anyone else has experienced this, let us know. If it has something to do with ultra low level flying, then I know what I would be doing if I were trying to escape a fast Me262! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I thought it was pretty cool, even though it ended up being cause of my demise. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:23 AM
yeah theres something really screwed with it, like most people landing the 262 i turn off my engines off very far from landing approach once you land you cannot restart the engines again.

The need to add at least some recoil to the 262s cannons, make engine fires not go out in a second, reduce the speed of the plane alot with 2 engine fires after they put out both fires from a tiny dive and spot the me262s ability to L turn at 900kmph

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:04 PM
Panelboy wrote:
- Hi Tagert,

Hey! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I don't think its a bug or bad coding;

Well allow me to expand on my def of a BUG. A BUG is something that does not work like it was intended to. Now if they didnt code something up at all.. Oh say like the ability to turn off the fule to an engine.. Than that is not a BUG.. Even though it was a real thing to do.. It is just something they didnt bother to model.. ie it was intended to NOT WORK, so not a bug.

- like many issues people have with some realism
- aspects of the sim, they have to code everything
- this wasn't coded.

Huh? But the ability to restart other aircraft while in flight is in the game allready.. They would just have to enable that for the Me262.

- I know that's elementary here, and no one here is
- complaining, but it's easy to forget.

Im with you on the point that everything is not modeled.. it was just a few short years ago that things like prop pitch and mixture were un-heard of in a sim.. those were not bugs either.. just things that are not modeled.. As time goes by and perifial devices become more capable and PC can do more we will see more little things like that modeled.

- I'm just glad they've taken the model this far!
- It is impressive.

Agreed 100%


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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:13 PM
tagert wrote:

- Well allow me to expand on my def of a BUG.

Just for fun, here's where the name apperently came from:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h96000/h96566kc.htm

On the other hand, I think it was deliberately modeled this way. For example, the I-15 and I-16 could, according to the readme, apperently only be started on the ground if you switch off the engine in flight it can't be restarted.

Haven't tested it yet, but when I have some spare time I'll try it out and see if I can find it in the readme. Apperently it's indeed just an on/off flag per plane or so. (thinking simplistic here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Jeroen