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View Full Version : The Lagg3 Damage Model is much too strong.



Xiolablu3
12-15-2005, 06:17 PM
Everyone who has been playing this sim for more than a month knows that the Lagg3 damage model is far too strong. I dont need charts or data, it is just obscenely obvious if you have flown the plane/shot at it.

I am sure this has been discussed here before as it is one of the most needed changes in the game.

Any chance of it being fixed soon>?

Xiolablu3
12-15-2005, 06:17 PM
Everyone who has been playing this sim for more than a month knows that the Lagg3 damage model is far too strong. I dont need charts or data, it is just obscenely obvious if you have flown the plane/shot at it.

I am sure this has been discussed here before as it is one of the most needed changes in the game.

Any chance of it being fixed soon>?

VW-IceFire
12-15-2005, 06:32 PM
I'll second that. Its pretty darn obvious.

tigertalon
12-15-2005, 07:53 PM
It is probably made out of theese trees:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/grab0000.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/grab0001.jpg

96th_Nightshifter
12-15-2005, 08:35 PM
It can indeed take a huge amount of damage, no specific tests have been conducted by Myself to prove this other than flying it online and taking "a huge amount of damage" or shooting it online and trying to give it "a huge amount of damage". And no I don't have a track of it either before anyone asks - It's just pretty obvious, was it historically known for this ability?

VW-IceFire
12-15-2005, 09:02 PM
...historically the LaGG-3 was tougher than the La-5/La-7 series in terms of how much material was used to construct it. The La-5 did remove quite a bit of the extra weight associated with the delta wood. While Delta wood is seemingly regarded outside of these forums as a useful building and construction material its greatest penalty was weight.

That said the LaGG was known for a few extra things. One was airframe failures. Another was fires. The fuel tanks, oil, engine, and presumably the skin itself was prone to lighting on fire...again partially due to construction. So it was not regarded as a tough aircraft to effectively down. My guess is that it had the possibility of standing up to battle damage better than the Yak-1 but with less reliable results.

Ingame, its an armored tank. Its tougher in some ways than the IL-2 is.

Badsight.
12-15-2005, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The Lagg3 Damage Model is much too strong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>you THINK !

Hayate_Acehole says they are just fine , id take his word over it if i was you . . . . .

Badsight.
12-15-2005, 09:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 96th_Nightshifter:
was it historically known for this ability? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>it is historically famous for taking large amounts of Small MG fire & flying on yes

alert_1
12-16-2005, 01:50 AM
LaGG3 (series 4, 29,35) weight EXACLY as much as La5,La5F,La5FN. Only series 66 was lighter, weighing approx. as much as Yak 9. They all use common engine PF105 (various variants), 1080-1210 hp. While wooden frame structures are NOT more restistent to damage then metal ones, they weihgt significantly more then metal ones of the same strenght.

269GA-Veltro
12-16-2005, 04:09 AM
I've a very nice movie about the LaGG-3 real DM, but i can't post it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

...not exactly an iron bird...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Another was fires. The fuel tanks, oil, engine, and presumably the skin itself was prone to lighting on fire... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...what you see in the movie...fire, fire and again.... fire.

Sintubin
12-16-2005, 05:07 AM
It was now as the flying covvin in the VVS

The Lagg-3 was not that fast our manouverble

But in game its a freeking killing machine But who wonders right !!

JG52Karaya-X
12-16-2005, 05:57 AM
Yea pilots called it "Lakirovanni Garantirovanni Grob" which translates into "painted guaranteed coffin" and yes it IS generously modelled in terms of DM... has been that since IL2 1.0

tigertalon
12-16-2005, 06:59 AM
Not only DM, also FM seems questionable to me. Being powered by weak 1200hp Klimov it is often preffered online mount compared to 1800HP, M-82 powered La5 or even La5F. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

msalama
12-16-2005, 07:22 AM
Yadda yadda, blah blah. As if we haven't heard this one - amongst other old favorites - some frikkin' 1x10^6 times already. But hey, tell you what: you can always _prove_ the DM to be too strong this time around, and then present your case to 1C - and lo and behold, we can _finally_ stop flogging this dead horse for good!

So what do you say, gents? Any takers, or do you prefer continuing with the BS - as most usually and unfortunately do - instead?

Xiolablu3
12-16-2005, 08:29 AM
Lmao msalama, so you are actually questioning this? Yes its been said before but nothing has been done about it.

Do you ever fly online in the Lagg3?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Any veteren online player can tell you this without 'tests' In the real world (online) it takes RIDICULOUS amounts of damage. I would say 30+ 20mm hits which has been done often on the UKded server is a bit too much? (tested using the gunstat command)

No tests are needed here, its just obvious to any who have flown with it/against it.

Jetbuff
12-16-2005, 08:35 AM
Funny. Whenever I fly the Lagg3 I always end up losing all of my maneuverability (limited to begin with) after the first volley - and this was before the return of the Minengeschoss.

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 08:57 AM
Check the tests done by JG54_Arnie in this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5011059923/p/1

At least it will introduce some numbers into this discussion.

p1ngu666
12-16-2005, 08:59 AM
so lagg is similer to the german rides then?

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
so lagg is similer to the german rides then? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

according to your opinion or numbers...seems very similar to P51C

p1ngu666
12-16-2005, 09:29 AM
the numbers posted by arnie in that thread

u edited your post here? cos what u put there (table) was hard to read.. now it isnt there no more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the numbers posted by arnie in that thread

u edited your post here? cos what u put there (table) was hard to read.. now it isnt there no more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The cut and paste didn't work so people will have to go look at orignal if they're really interested in comparing the Lagg with other planes.

Of course, he only tested the '42 model. Maybe someone who thinks the 66 series is too tough can test it.

Nubarus
12-16-2005, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Lmao msalama, so you are actually questioning this? Yes its been said before but nothing has been done about it.

Do you ever fly online in the Lagg3?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Any veteren online player can tell you this without 'tests' In the real world (online) it takes RIDICULOUS amounts of damage. I would say 30+ 20mm hits which has been done often on the UKded server is a bit too much? (tested using the gunstat command)

No tests are needed here, its just obvious to any who have flown with it/against it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He didn't question this, all he said was that you need to provide hard evidence and then EMAIL it to pf@1c.ru in order to have it looked at and if needed corrected instead of opening another thread about this subject again and again and again...etc....etc....etc....

Oh and another thing, make your test offline so that lag and packet loss are 100% ruled out.

And another thing, don't just send a plain text mail with: "Any veteran online player can tell you this without 'tests' In the real world (online) it takes RIDICULOUS amounts of damage. I would say 30+ 20mm hits which has been done often on the UKded server is a bit too much? (tested using the gunstat command)

No tests are needed here, its just obvious to any who have flown with it/against it."

Just record a few offline NTRK's, add some text in a calm and normal mannor and it will be looked at.

jeroen_R90S
12-16-2005, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Not only DM, also FM seems questionable to me. Being powered by weak 1200hp Klimov it is often preffered online mount compared to 1800HP, M-82 powered La5 or even La5F. blink: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only in virtual servers, IRL according to Soviet AF Fighter Colors '41-'45 many a pilot preferred the later LaGG over La-5, La-5F and the early FN. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The later LaGGs were lighter than the early La-5s being based on the 'older' heavier LaGG types.
This is from memory, though, I'll have to look it up in the book to be sure.

The DM is questionable, though. I don't know the fire resistance of Delta Wood, it was impregnated so there may be a possibility it would not burn.

Jeroen

msalama
12-16-2005, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lmao msalama, so you are actually questioning this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You f**king thick or something? I didn't _question_ anything. I just merely stated out the obvious, i.e. in order to get it fixed, it has to be _proven_ to be BROKEN. Period.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you ever fly online in the Lagg3?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Online? See my sig.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No tests are needed here, its just obvious to any who have flown with it/against it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yadda yadda... well OK, your choice is clear, i.e. you choose to spew the BS. OK, fair enough - sad and all too common as it may be - but there's _still_ a couple of questions unanswered:

1) Got track(R)?
2) See 1).

Well of course you can always _try_ to convince Oleg without proof! But tons of luck to ya if you actually decide to _do_ so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PS. EXACTLY what Nubarus said there, actually.

WWMaxGunz
12-16-2005, 11:52 AM
The Guaranteed Coffin reputation was before changes were made to the line. The big
change was to one factory where corners were cut and the wrong varnish used (was it
cheaper or just what they had on hand, I dunno) and the man in charge was removed.

Those things are called bugs, they were fixed. Almost every plane had some and it is
possible to find the stories and negative comments made. That doesn't mean that every
plane of the series was so, except to short sighted readers. It was posted long ago
that the fixes were made, why and when. What gets me is often enough the ones who bring
these things up were there participating in the threads where the answers were made.

Is the Late LaGG3 too good? If you can't show it or need to use stupid history tricks
to lower the bar then why bother, you're only whining.

HayateAce
12-16-2005, 12:09 PM
Learn to shoot, 1-CryBaby-Oh-Whine-Niners.

http://www.nla.gov.au/pub/nlanews/2000/october00/images/crying-child.jpg

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 01:05 PM
Laggs are cannon fodder for 190's....

Xiolablu3
12-16-2005, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lmao msalama, so you are actually questioning this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You f**king thick or something? I didn't _question_ anything. I just merely stated out the obvious, i.e. in order to get it fixed, it has to be _proven_ to be BROKEN. Period.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you ever fly online in the Lagg3?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Online? See my sig.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No tests are needed here, its just obvious to any who have flown with it/against it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yadda yadda... well OK, your choice is clear, i.e. you choose to spew the BS. OK, fair enough - sad and all too common as it may be - but there's _still_ a couple of questions unanswered:

1) Got track(R)?
2) See 1).

Well of course you can always _try_ to convince Oleg without proof! But tons of luck to ya if you actually decide to _do_ so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PS. EXACTLY what Nubarus said there, actually. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I give up, I havent got time to test this, got better things to do. The person I made this thread to help doesnt even see the point in it as its been brought up so many times and I think he realised that this would happen. I am quite new around here and didnt realise I would get such a lame response.

The DM is obvious to people who fly it/fly against it. It needs fixing, but I am not the one to do it.

Maybe I am ******* thick but I am not a little pr1ck know-it-all like you.

Mods you can delete this if you want, I am out.

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The person I made this thread to help doesnt even see the point in it as its been brought up so many times and I think he realised that this would happen. I am quite new around here and didnt realise I would get such a lame response.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you make a thread to help a person??? The idea is to attempt to improve the sim and help the community by pointing out bugs or inconsistencies that can be verified by the 1C team. Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud since thread was dead from the get go.

LEXX_Luthor
12-16-2005, 07:48 PM
The varnish coffin name came from lack of proper training in a difficult to fly design where many Newbie pilots were lost in training, and not from combat, where the overall toughness was appreciated although flight performance was not. The training was later addressed properly.

Pe-2 had its bad name too, from combat losses, but alot of that was from lack of fighter escort and early tactics. Forgot what the name was, it was not friendly.

Going by the logic of the standard "lagg varnish" slogan seen on the fake arcade Online dogfight shooter webboards, all 1941 Soviet planes were coffins, until proper tactics were used later in the war.

WWMaxGunz
12-16-2005, 08:12 PM
There was actually one factory that used a substitute varnish that lit quickly and
burned fiercely. Same factory made sloppy fits of parts. I don't know if it was
just that factory or the design but there was trouble getting the cockpit to close
and worse to open again that had pilots flying with open canopies.

All those things were fixed. Reputation was worst before then. IL2 uses the fixed
versions. Easy to find some tales to tell this plane is bad and that one was super.
Easier to post those and make claims. So many years of that, and the tales come by
cycles.

Kuna15
12-16-2005, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 269GA-Veltro:
I've a very nice movie about the LaGG-3 real DM, but i can't post it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

...not exactly an iron bird...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Another was fires. The fuel tanks, oil, engine, and presumably the skin itself was prone to lighting on fire... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...what you see in the movie...fire, fire and again.... fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

@ 269GA-Veltro check your PM.

VW-IceFire
12-16-2005, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Learn to shoot, 1-CryBaby-Oh-Whine-Niners.

http://www.nla.gov.au/pub/nlanews/2000/october00/images/crying-child.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I rarely fly the 109...I still agree. Relabel that stereotype as its not inclusive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
12-16-2005, 10:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 269GA-Veltro:
I've a very nice movie about the LaGG-3 real DM, but i can't post it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

...not exactly an iron bird...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Another was fires. The fuel tanks, oil, engine, and presumably the skin itself was prone to lighting on fire... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...what you see in the movie...fire, fire and again.... fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting indeed! He does take quite a few hits...looks like the structure remains intact but then the fuel tank just bursts.

WB_Outlaw
12-16-2005, 10:55 PM
I just did 40 or so tests against both early and late Laggs with multiple aircraft. They are very resistant to .303 fire from the Hurricane but a pilot kill is not difficult. It takes quite a bit of .50 rounds to destroy the aircraft but pilot kills are quick and easy. The single 20mm cannon of the 109F and 109G easily disentigrated the Laggs.

-Outlaw.

GR142-Pipper
12-17-2005, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
[QUOTE]Lmao msalama, so you are actually questioning this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You f**king thick or something? I didn't _question_ anything. I just merely stated out the obvious, i.e. in order to get it fixed, it has to be _proven_ to be BROKEN. Period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Msalama, you're exactly right on this point so don't even bother to argue. All you asked was test results be forwarded to 1c for examination...no more, no less. It's really interesting how some here will ignore what's written and reply as if something completely different was being said.

...and so it goes.

GR142-Pipper

Gibbage1
12-17-2005, 04:26 AM
OK. I just did some quick testing. Here is what I found.

LAGG 3 series is rather weak vs .50 cal's. Just a good spritz will do them in. Engine dead, wing fire and PK's were the most common cause of death.

VS 20MM was another story. VERY strong vs 20MM. They could take 3-4 hits of Hispano and MG151/20 in the wing and not have it ripped off. That puts the LAGG up there with the P-47 and FW-190 in 20MM resistance. I shot down about 20 LAGG 3's and not once did I see a wing fall off, tail fall off or anything fall off when using 20MM's or .50 cal. They were all dead engine, fires, PK or controle cable.

Mk-108. 1 hit will do them in. I saw a few take 2 hits, but it was rare. I was clipping wings off like crazy with the Mk-108's. LAGG's dont like 30MM, be sure!

So it depends on what your hitting the LAGG with. If your tossing 20MM's, ya. They are overmodeled big time! Try MG's into the inner wings, cockpit or engine. That should do them in easy. Or just blow them appart with a Mk-108.

But I do think the 20MM resistance should be looked at, and the lack of anything braking on it. The structure seems to be VERY VERY strong. Considering the wings cant withstand 620KPH+, but can take 4 20MM's without braking is rather interesting.

carguy_
12-17-2005, 05:42 AM
Gibbage,you forget that it`s historical enemy is mainly Bf109F2 with MG151/15.Test this!

VW-IceFire
12-17-2005, 07:53 AM
Online on servers we have observed LaGG-3s taking upwards of 50...some even counted almost 100 rounds of fire (machine gun and 20mm cannon) into a LaGG before shooting it down.

Surely lag is to play in downing the LaGG (ha!) but I don't think anything else is affected in the same way...

JG52Karaya-X
12-17-2005, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. I just did some quick testing. Here is what I found.

LAGG 3 series is rather weak vs .50 cal's. Just a good spritz will do them in. Engine dead, wing fire and PK's were the most common cause of death.

VS 20MM was another story. VERY strong vs 20MM. They could take 3-4 hits of Hispano and MG151/20 in the wing and not have it ripped off. That puts the LAGG up there with the P-47 and FW-190 in 20MM resistance. I shot down about 20 LAGG 3's and not once did I see a wing fall off, tail fall off or anything fall off when using 20MM's or .50 cal. They were all dead engine, fires, PK or controle cable.

Mk-108. 1 hit will do them in. I saw a few take 2 hits, but it was rare. I was clipping wings off like crazy with the Mk-108's. LAGG's dont like 30MM, be sure!

So it depends on what your hitting the LAGG with. If your tossing 20MM's, ya. They are overmodeled big time! Try MG's into the inner wings, cockpit or engine. That should do them in easy. Or just blow them appart with a Mk-108.

But I do think the 20MM resistance should be looked at, and the lack of anything braking on it. The structure seems to be VERY VERY strong. Considering the wings cant withstand 620KPH+, but can take 4 20MM's without braking is rather interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My experience is quite the same - AP bullets seem to do more damage to the LaGG than HE or even MG... still a Bf109F2 for example is pretty much useless against it for the very restricted armament (but thats not the LaGGs problem http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif).
Another thing I've seen on all LaGG3s is that sometimes if you hit the right/left wing the fuel tank on the OTHER wing will catch fire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

alert_1
12-17-2005, 09:55 AM
LaGG 3, serier 4,29,35 are buggy as hel not only for DM but even more for FM. Me109F4 even with 250 kg bomb should autmeneurve it si ease. (LaGG 3 3346kg/1080hp, me109F4 2900kg/1350 hp), wing area comparable...

HelSqnProtos
12-17-2005, 11:13 AM
S~!

Don't know what you are smoking there alert_1 that you think an f2-4 with a 250kg bomb attached will outmaneouver a late lagg clean config in a dogfight --- but you need to pass some of that around.

As for the dm arguement, this has been known for a while, however as gibbage and others pointed out it seems to be restricted to 20s.

JG52Karaya-X
12-17-2005, 12:20 PM
I dont think he meant the S66 which is by far the best LaGG3 ingame with a reduced takeoff weight and increased engine output... the 3346kg sound like the S4 or 29 - which were quite underpowered (as alert_1 pointed out).

ECV56_Rolf
12-17-2005, 04:14 PM
Curious... I don´t have any trouble with 20mm against LaGG. Now 15mm are a very different story!

It seems that He ammo is not there. All appear to be AP.

An F4 could cut easily a LaGG3 wing, but an F2 is a completely different story.

You could hit the engine with 7.9s as much as you wish. There will be no significant damage at all.

mortoma
12-17-2005, 05:05 PM
I don't care what anyone says, the DM of the early LaGGs is too tough. It's the only plane whereby you can attack bombers and their defensive MGs do absolutely nothing the LaGGs engine, not a scratch. Try that with a P-40 or P-51!! Your engine will be completely stopped with the first MG bullet. The 109s engine will splatter oil all over the windscreen with the very first MG hit also, then you will later have a seized engine. But not with the LaGGs, only thing to worry about is getting PK'd. The engine will hold up miraculously, every time, guarantee ya.............

WWMaxGunz
12-17-2005, 07:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Online on servers we have observed LaGG-3s taking upwards of 50...some even counted almost 100 rounds of fire (machine gun and 20mm cannon) into a LaGG before shooting it down.

Surely lag is to play in downing the LaGG (ha!) but I don't think anything else is affected in the same way... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many holes in, was it Johnson's P-47 and he made it back?

Is LaGG3 supposed to be a lightweight?

VW-IceFire
12-17-2005, 10:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Online on servers we have observed LaGG-3s taking upwards of 50...some even counted almost 100 rounds of fire (machine gun and 20mm cannon) into a LaGG before shooting it down.

Surely lag is to play in downing the LaGG (ha!) but I don't think anything else is affected in the same way... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many holes in, was it Johnson's P-47 and he made it back?

Is LaGG3 supposed to be a lightweight? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it was 7 20mm rounds and many tens of light machine guns (7.92mm as the FW190 behind him pretty much ran out of cannon ammo and was pumping him with his MG17s). Fascinating story. Thing is that the P-47 had a reputation for damage. The LaGG-3 had a reputation for lighting on fire and being structurally weak overall despite being fairly densely constructed.

What I had read suggested that techniques later improved...the Series 66 should hold together better. The La-5 was again an improvement.

In my example...I'm saying possibly 50 or even 100 rounds of cannon ammo. I know I've taken a Bf110 up against a LaGG-3 (earlier model) and landed multiple quad 20mm rounds on him. This is the tight nose concenration. He survived quite a few bits of beating before his engine stopped turning and I left him. But no fuel leaks, oil leaks, or anything else. Just not the same fidelity as the other DM's. Thats what is at the heart of this.

ECV56_Rolf
12-17-2005, 10:56 PM
Low caliber hits over the radiator won 't do a thing to this plane. The engine doesn't care about low caliber ammunition.

msalama
12-18-2005, 02:58 AM
Hmmm...

OK, having now followed this thread for a while - and having pished on Xiolablu's parade a bit up there (sorry) - I actually realize that my main call for unambiguous evidence as a precedent for a complaint isn't necessarily applicable to all cases, because some things _can_ be very suspicious and at the same time very hard, if not impossible, to actually _prove_ as faulty. And yes, the LaGG-3 DM does seem to be one of these cases...

But OK, if it SEEMS to be wrong, and still cannot be proven as BEING wrong, then what is there to do? Well, we can always ask the developers of course!

So ahem... 1C/Oleg, a small question or two here if you don't mind awfully:

1) On what data is the LaGG-3 DM based, i.e. why is it so much more robust than an average inline-engined fighter in this game?

Or, taking into account the reports of LaGG-3 being overtly resistant to 20mm. cannon fire:

2) Why is this so? Is this based on RL data, or is this a DM bug?

Thank you for your answers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
12-18-2005, 05:42 AM
in the box release version of FB , v1.0 , the FW-190 & the LaGG carried over their DM from the previous IL2:Sturmovik game

as in more "simple" than what all other planes were given

triggerhappyfin
12-18-2005, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Learn to shoot, 1-CryBaby-Oh-Whine-Niners.

http://www.nla.gov.au/pub/nlanews/2000/october00/images/crying-child.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some has..when I fly the lagg there seem to be some other , much weaker DM on that lagg. I dont last long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

triggerhappyfin
12-18-2005, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Learn to shoot, 1-CryBaby-Oh-Whine-Niners.

http://www.nla.gov.au/pub/nlanews/2000/october00/images/crying-child.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some has..when I fly the lagg there seem to be some other , much weaker DM on that lagg. I dont last long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vipez-
12-18-2005, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
in the box release version of FB , v1.0 , the FW-190 & the LaGG carried over their DM from the previous IL2:Sturmovik game

as in more "simple" than what all other planes were given </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly.. and lagg still holds this simple dm, while FW190 got updated for much better DM.. AEP brought us lagg series29&35, and naturally i was expecting them to receive more complicated DM as well, but they still hold same old dm as Lagg3 s4...

Kuna15
12-18-2005, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
Some has..when I fly the lagg there seem to be some other , much weaker DM on that lagg. I dont last long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
True from my PoV too.

WWMaxGunz
12-18-2005, 10:46 PM
Maybe it's just got the old damage graphics? How often in LaGG does the plane lose
control (human at the stick, not AI) as opposed to PK's and engine kills? You only
see the graphic which is not really the damage.

Edit:Add

Ahhh what the heck, a QUAD 20 should tear up any plane it hits even half squarely.
Check it out, you make a full track, .trk file then if change to arcade mode before
playback, you can see the hits and even the HE shrapnel paths. Screenshot some of
that and post it. Then go ask about 151/20 threads.....

anarchy52
12-19-2005, 03:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

How many holes in, was it Johnson's P-47 and he made it back?

Is LaGG3 supposed to be a lightweight? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it was 7 20mm rounds and many tens of light machine guns (7.92mm as the FW190 behind him pretty much ran out of cannon ammo and was pumping him with his MG17s). [/QUOTE]

I saw the photos but could only make out 1-2 hits on the tail section and one just behind the cockpit on the left side which shattered the plexi and jammed the hood. Stories might be off a bit ("taking 20 20mm shells" and such).

And LaGG is funny, I did some testing offline with Arcade on. I was shooting with Bf-110 using 4 7,9mm MG only, from above and finally got the hits I wanted - directly from above on the engine. The result of 12 7,92 hits on the engine at ~60-70 deg angle was...nothing at all. AI continued to fly without signs of damage.
LaGG does have a sweetspot: wingroot.

BaronUnderpants
12-19-2005, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
Yadda yadda, blah blah. As if we haven't heard this one - amongst other old favorites - some frikkin' 1x10^6 times already. But hey, tell you what: you can always _prove_ the DM to be too strong this time around, and then present your case to 1C - and lo and behold, we can _finally_ stop flogging this dead horse for good!

So what do you say, gents? Any takers, or do you prefer continuing with the BS - as most usually and unfortunately do - instead? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tell u what...why dont U present real facts stating the LaGG being a flying tank instead, mmkay?

Just because its there in the game doesnt mean its souly up to the people stating the faults to fix it with facts, tracks and what not. Or maby u dont give a rats a** if that game is as accurate as possible or not?

The much to strong DM is pretty obvious and havent seen any one disputing that fact yet.

Nubarus
12-19-2005, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
Yadda yadda, blah blah. As if we haven't heard this one - amongst other old favorites - some frikkin' 1x10^6 times already. But hey, tell you what: you can always _prove_ the DM to be too strong this time around, and then present your case to 1C - and lo and behold, we can _finally_ stop flogging this dead horse for good!

So what do you say, gents? Any takers, or do you prefer continuing with the BS - as most usually and unfortunately do - instead? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tell u what...why dont U present real facts stating the LaGG being a flying tank instead, mmkay?

Just because its there in the game doesnt mean its souly up to the people stating the faults to fix it with facts, tracks and what not. Or maby u dont give a rats a** if that game is as accurate as possible or not?

The much to strong DM is pretty obvious and havent seen any one disputing that fact yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So instead of adding more waste to this pointless thread you could also collect the needed data and mail it to pf@1c.ru.

ECV56_Rolf
12-19-2005, 08:49 AM
Cared to play a bit more against the LaGG, and the only cuestionable thing about the damage model is that low caliber does no significant damage, still some visible damage is seen, but while .50s will produce holes, 7.9 will only produce spots. 20mm are OK, .50s are ok.

The only canon that does not perform well was the MG151 15mm of the F2. F4 could take the LaGGs into pieces with well placed shots.

msalama
12-19-2005, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Tell u what...why dont U present real facts stating the LaGG being a flying tank instead, mmkay? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the burden of proof is on the original complainer. That's why.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or maby u dont give a rats a** if that game is as accurate as possible or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The much to strong DM is pretty obvious and havent seen any one disputing that fact yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's disputed anything?

plumps_
12-19-2005, 10:37 AM
This is a screenshot of a LaGG-3 cockpit from the original IL-2 v. 1.0. In that version of the game the Lagg damage model actually included a broken gunsight, bullet holes in the glass, and some oil smeared all over the windows:

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4448/lagg3il2v102ax.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


All of this is missing in later releases. No oil, no broken reflector sight, and no bullet holes will ever obstruct your view and your ability to continue the combat in a damaged aircraft.

Also, as the LaGG still has a simplified DM from the original Il-2, you'll never lose control cables.

The ultimate test of the LaGG-3 DM is to fly against a flight of ace AI He-111 H-2 bombers. You simply need to park in the bombers' 6 o'clock position, slightly higher to avoid PKs, and listen to the sound of the bullets hammering against your engine without doing harm. When it's getting too loud just shoot the bombers down... (I have tracks, but that's something you can easily repeat in the QMB).

What I really don't understand is how the LaGG-3 was considered not important enough to get an updated DM, but still it was important enough to release new models of the same old buggy plane in FB.

If you're a fan of the LaGG-3 in FB your realism standards must be quite low...

Vike
12-19-2005, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by plumps_:
This is a screenshot of a LaGG-3 cockpit from the original IL-2 v. 1.0. In that version of the game the Lagg damage model actually included a broken gunsight, bullet holes in the glass, and some oil smeared all over the windows:

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4448/lagg3il2v102ax.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


All of this is missing in later releases. No oil, no broken reflector sight, and no bullet holes will ever obstruct your view and your ability to continue the combat in a damaged aircraft.

Also, as the LaGG still has a simplified DM from the original Il-2, you'll never lose control cables.

The ultimate test of the LaGG-3 DM is to fly against a flight of ace AI He-111 H-2 bombers. You simply need to park in the bombers' 6 o'clock position, slightly higher to avoid PKs, and listen to the sound of the bullets hammering against your engine without doing harm. When it's getting too loud just shoot the bombers down... (I have tracks, but that's something you can easily repeat in the QMB).

What I really don't understand is how the LaGG-3 was considered not important enough to get an updated DM, but still it was important enough to release new models of the same old buggy plane in FB.

If you're a fan of the LaGG-3 in FB your realism standards must be quite low... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've just done a QMB with Aces He111-H6s and me in a Lagg3 "29 serie":

Just unbelievable! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

As you said to do:
I put myself intentionally just above the He111s' upper surface where we can easily be hit by the gunners;
My lagg3 was taking an incredible huge amount of bullets in its belly,and nothing absolutely nothing happened! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Simply no damage at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I discovered that as i just read this thread.
As i used to fly the 109,i absolutely find the Lagg3 ability to take shot incomprehensible and mysterious... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

HelSqnProtos
12-19-2005, 05:35 PM
Lagg controls also DO get destroyed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VW-IceFire
12-19-2005, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
Lagg controls also DO get destroyed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That they do...just rarely.

Do the Heinkel test...its hilarious the amount of damage. On the flipside, for broken DM models, fly a P-47 and do the same and you'll have a dead engine in seconds.

plumps_
12-19-2005, 07:18 PM
Better compare the early Lagg-3 to the P-40 E Soviet modification as both types are equipped with the M-105P engine.

In the He-111 test with the P-40 E you'll experience guns jamming, fuel leaks, oil on the screen, bullet holes in the glass, a broken gunsight, loss of all your controls. The engine will die quickly.

I experienced none of the above in my tests with the LaGG-3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lagg controls also DO get destroyed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe this is only caused by heavier weapons, but not by the light MGs of the He-111 H-2? It never happened during my tests.

ECV56_Rolf
12-19-2005, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by plumps_:
Better compare the early Lagg-3 to the P-40 E Soviet modification as both types are equipped with the M-105P engine.

In the He-111 test with the P-40 E you'll experience guns jamming, fuel leaks, oil on the screen, bullet holes in the glass, a broken gunsight, loss of all your controls. The engine will die quickly.

I experienced none of the above in my tests with the LaGG-3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lagg controls also DO get destroyed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe this is only caused by heavier weapons, but not by the light MGs of the He-111 H-2? It never happened during my tests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither on mine. And yes, they do get destroyed by heavier weapons.

BfHeFwMe
12-19-2005, 08:30 PM
GO DELTA! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Sintubin
12-20-2005, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by plumps_:
This is a screenshot of a LaGG-3 cockpit from the original IL-2 v. 1.0. In that version of the game the Lagg damage model actually included a broken gunsight, bullet holes in the glass, and some oil smeared all over the windows:

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4448/lagg3il2v102ax.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


All of this is missing in later releases. No oil, no broken reflector sight, and no bullet holes will ever obstruct your view and your ability to continue the combat in a damaged aircraft.

Also, as the LaGG still has a simplified DM from the original Il-2, you'll never lose control cables.

The ultimate test of the LaGG-3 DM is to fly against a flight of ace AI He-111 H-2 bombers. You simply need to park in the bombers' 6 o'clock position, slightly higher to avoid PKs, and listen to the sound of the bullets hammering against your engine without doing harm. When it's getting too loud just shoot the bombers down... (I have tracks, but that's something you can easily repeat in the QMB).

What I really don't understand is how the LaGG-3 was considered not important enough to get an updated DM, but still it was important enough to release new models of the same old buggy plane in FB.

If you're a fan of the LaGG-3 in FB your realism standards must be quite low... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did the test also

Its realy unreal man

That Lagg-3 keeps flying

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

GR142-Pipper
12-21-2005, 05:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
Lagg controls also DO get destroyed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That they do...just rarely.

Do the Heinkel test...its hilarious the amount of damage. On the flipside, for broken DM models, fly a P-47 and do the same and you'll have a dead engine in seconds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Which highlights the fact that the P-47's engine is WAY too vulnerable.

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
12-21-2005, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sintubin:
Did the test also

Its realy unreal man

That Lagg-3 keeps flying

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That may (or may not) be true when being shot at by the hopelessly ficticious bomber guns. I took ONE hit by a Betty gunner and my F6F engine instantly siezed. I think a better test environment for ANY DM question is to test the aircraft in 30 to 40 on-line engagements and see how they behave. At least this engagement sample size is large enough to draw some initial impressions and then go from there.

GR142-Pipper

IIJG69_Kartofe
12-21-2005, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sintubin:
Did the test also

Its realy unreal man

That Lagg-3 keeps flying

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That may (or may not) be true when being shot at by the hopelessly ficticious bomber guns. I took ONE hit by a Betty gunner and my F6F engine instantly siezed. I think a better test environment for ANY DM question is to test the aircraft in 30 to 40 on-line engagements and see how they behave. At least this engagement sample size is large enough to draw some initial impressions and then go from there.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wich gunner?

The rear gunner is a 20mm cannon! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

For the online test, go to a dog room wel known for his Eastern planeset (Easternhotshots or Corbina telecom) and see how many takes the lagg3 when better fighters are available (Yak 1b, yak 9, ...).

As said before the lagg 3 is a mediocre to average fighter, not a good one, if he has so few qualities, why did they take this plane so much?

Any idea?

JtD
12-21-2005, 02:05 PM
Because of the 23mm gun.

VW-IceFire
12-21-2005, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sintubin:
Did the test also

Its realy unreal man

That Lagg-3 keeps flying

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That may (or may not) be true when being shot at by the hopelessly ficticious bomber guns. I took ONE hit by a Betty gunner and my F6F engine instantly siezed. I think a better test environment for ANY DM question is to test the aircraft in 30 to 40 on-line engagements and see how they behave. At least this engagement sample size is large enough to draw some initial impressions and then go from there.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The F6F is partially afflicted by the R-2800 engine series one hit instakill problem.

Also the Betty is firing a Type 99 20mm round into your engine...

AnaK774
12-21-2005, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:

Don't know what you are smoking there alert_1 that you think an f2-4 with a 250kg bomb attached will outmaneouver a late lagg clean config in a dogfight --- but you need to pass some of that around.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, would love some of it as well, those slick Friedrichs are horribly boring http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GR142-Pipper
12-21-2005, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The F6F is partially afflicted by the R-2800 engine series one hit instakill problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's completely afflicted. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm surprised an error of this kind has persisted so long since it affects so many well known aircraft.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also the Betty is firing a Type 99 20mm round into your engine... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it was the tail gunner.

GR142-Pipper

msalama
12-22-2005, 02:47 AM
Hmmm, getting slightly OT here it seems... But is it _possible_ to incapacitate a radial engine with a single extremely lucky cannon hit IRL? Y'know, maybe hitting a fuel mains or something like that?

And mind you, I'm just ASKING here...

JtD
12-22-2005, 07:28 AM
Everything is possible. Question should be how likely is it?

ECV56_Rolf
12-22-2005, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
Hmmm, getting slightly OT here it seems... But is it _possible_ to incapacitate a radial engine with a single extremely lucky cannon hit IRL? Y'know, maybe hitting a fuel mains or something like that?

And mind you, I'm just ASKING here... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Testing the .50s, a FW190A5 got a single .50s engine damage. It did not stop, but performance lowered a lot.

p1ngu666
12-22-2005, 09:11 AM
yeah its possible, easily i think. mind the japanease cannon in the betty isnt that strong, and the view is dire :\.

other guns on betty are basicaly ww1 lewis guns, ie rather weak..

alert_1
12-22-2005, 11:19 AM
Klimov M105 engines were very prone to catching fire when hit even with MGs because of fuel instalation located on upper side of engine, so there should be no oil like in Me109 but FIRE just in front of cockpit....

tomtheyak
12-22-2005, 07:00 PM
Perhaps there is a DM limitation problem here... I don't know but it seems that regularly DMs get porked somewhere with each patch release.

Could it be to do with how the DM calculates likely damage? How does it do this?

Is the DM divided into a series of boxes with various value points (like CFS2) and then a random generation of possible detail failures attribited?

For example: You take hit in the left inner wing of the P-40 by an explosive MG round. Depending on details of the mass, velocity and calibre of said round gives you some parameters for damage, say around 20% overall damage to that 'box'.

Is there then set of randomly generated figures for the failure of componenets? Control wires are fairly small and with a single round have to be a lucky strike (or a big round!) so for this particular round, the chance of control failure is perhaps 5-10%? As more rounds strike home probablility that damage to the controls occurs is more likely as does stuctural failure of the inner wing.

Now I might be blowing smoke from my tuschie here but if that is the case of how the DMS are modelled perhaps theres a bug in the calculations thats not making the correct randomness?

Of course if the DMs aren't modelled this way I've just posted aload of claptrap thats no use to man nor beast! Ah well..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
12-23-2005, 01:47 AM
Agree to all of that, but the problem is that the lagg3 invulnerability bug exist from... Before the version 3.0 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WWMaxGunz
12-23-2005, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
Perhaps there is a DM limitation problem here... I don't know but it seems that regularly DMs get porked somewhere with each patch release.

Could it be to do with how the DM calculates likely damage? How does it do this?

Is the DM divided into a series of boxes with various value points (like CFS2) and then a random generation of possible detail failures attribited?

For example: You take hit in the left inner wing of the P-40 by an explosive MG round. Depending on details of the mass, velocity and calibre of said round gives you some parameters for damage, say around 20% overall damage to that 'box'.

Is there then set of randomly generated figures for the failure of componenets? Control wires are fairly small and with a single round have to be a lucky strike (or a big round!) so for this particular round, the chance of control failure is perhaps 5-10%? As more rounds strike home probablility that damage to the controls occurs is more likely as does stuctural failure of the inner wing.

Now I might be blowing smoke from my tuschie here but if that is the case of how the DMS are modelled perhaps theres a bug in the calculations thats not making the correct randomness?

Of course if the DMs aren't modelled this way I've just posted aload of claptrap thats no use to man nor beast! Ah well..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were you around to see the posts from Oleg or the Dev sections that showed the 3D models?
Those are what the DM uses. Hits are noted from angle and relative speed to the target.
Just what happens or what every model is... it seems some mistakes or differences in level
are in there.

Xiolablu3
12-29-2005, 11:47 AM
I apoloigise if I didnt bring all the 'facts to the table', but I assumed that the developers wanted a realistic game and would therefore check the facts themselves.

This thread is not about nothing, it is about the Lagg3 DM being much too strong, I just dont know the exact properties or strength because I am not a games developer.


It appears that the lagg3 DM has been like this for ages (I am quite new to online play) and I have been told that its quite obvious the developers dont want to fix it, otherwise it would have been done by now.

I dont want to beleive such theories, but these veterans of the game say it has been going on that long, and is so obvious, that they can offer no other explanation.

So I add, the Lagg3 damamge model neds sorting, it is much too strong, I dont know the details but it is quite obvious in the game. I dont have time to test it, but I think its something that is so bad, it needs fixing.

Thanks, and respect to all the players and developers of this fine game.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Everyone who has been playing this sim for more than a month knows that the Lagg3 damage model is far too strong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Relative to what?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I dont need charts or data, it is just obscenely obvious if you have flown the plane/shot at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You say that as if there were charts or data on it to compare too.. There are not, why? Hard to find a test pilot who is willing to be shot at and take notes while flying.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I am sure this has been discussed here before as it is one of the most needed changes in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Based on?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Any chance of it being fixed soon? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>My guess would be yes.. if you had some charts or data showing how wrong it is.. But since nobody does, my guess would be no.

Seriosly, any and all DM's are based on a WAG anyways, so, it is basically based on a persons preception based on what they have read and some very basic engineering guesses. Problem for you is, Oleg is that guy, not you. So you don€t stand much of a chance in changing Oleg€s "mind" unless you can present some antidotal evidence to support your *feeling*. In light of the FACT that you got NONE of this.. I would recommend that you at LEAST get some track files that show the Lagg3 taking what "you" consider to be too much.. Send them to Oleg and maybe he will take it into consideration and take another WAG at it. But just sitting back and whinning about it is sure to get you nowhere.

VW-IceFire
12-29-2005, 02:24 PM
Tagert, I hope you aren't seriously arguing that the LaGG-3 DM is functioning like the other DM's in the game.

The thing is fairly obviously using a simplified DM as it lacks much of the detail and behaves like hardened concrete. The La-5, 5F, and 5FN are nothing like it in my experience and yet the airframes are related.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Tagert, I hope you aren't seriously arguing that the LaGG-3 DM is functioning like the other DM's in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I have not said either way, but I will say this.. I have not seen the Lagg3 display superman qualities either.. Than again I have not flown it or aginst it that much either, so take that into consideration.

My only point here is all the DMs are a WAG that are based more on a persons preception (i.e. Oleg's preception) than engineering or data. Unlike the FM arguments where real data can be found and tests preformed, a DM is more of a *feeling* therefore if you want to get the Lagg3's DM changed.. you will have to change the way Oleg *feels* about the plane.. Present some pilots accounts, pictures, etc, anything that can support your *feelings* and last but not least, provide him some track files where you think the Lagg3 has absorbed more damage than you *feel* was posable. Since DM's are such a WAG, pilots accounts, pictures, etc are all you need because the whole thing is just a WAG from the get go, unlike FMs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The thing is fairly obviously using a simplified DM as it lacks much of the detail and behaves like hardened concrete. The La-5, 5F, and 5FN are nothing like it in my experience and yet the airframes are related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Must not be that obvious to Oleg.. otherwise he would have changed it.

Xiolablu3
12-29-2005, 03:51 PM
I think we have noticed it most because it is frequently used on the UKded1 server, and it often shows superhuman strength on there vs 190A's 4x20mm and MK108.

I guess that this server must be one of the only ones that use the Lagg3 often because its common knowledge around that server that it often sustains ridiculous amounts of damage, which is why I thought everyone knew about it.

I think many people think it is irrelvant as its one of the early war planes and most of the top servers play late war scenarios. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No hard feelings from this thread I hope, but if you do ever get to try out the Lagg3 in a historical server, just see what you guys think. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

thanks.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think we have noticed it most because it is frequently used on the UKded1 server, and it often shows superhuman strength on there vs 190A's 4x20mm and MK108. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Frequently and Superhuman?
Well than it should be a slam dunk to capture a track file of one of these *frequent* events and obvious to even Oleg if it is *superhuman*!

Yet.. you say this problem has been around for some time.. Therefore there are only two possible answers..
1) Nobody has captured a track file and sent it to Oleg
2) Sombody has captured a track file and sent it to Oleg, and Oleg did NOT find it to be *superhuman*, thus no change made.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I guess that this server must be one of the only ones that use the Lagg3 often because its common knowledge around that server that it often sustains ridiculous amounts of damage, which is why I thought everyone knew about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and at a star trek convention everyone agrees that Pickard was the best captain. When you move in small circles, things tend to be understood.. until you move to a bigger circle.. Because everyone knows that Kirk was the best captain! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think many people think it is irrelvant as its one of the early war planes and most of the top servers play late war scenarios. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe.. maybe not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
No hard feelings from this thread I hope, but if you do ever get to try out the Lagg3 in a historical server, just see what you guys think. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>As I said, I have, not as much as others, but when I do I don€t see it as being superhuman.

jurinko
12-29-2005, 05:23 PM
Me-110 rear gunner vs inline engines:

Yak-9

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_01.jpg

slowly lands


LaGG-3 - does not care much

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_03.jpg

LaGG-3 - after 200+ hits the engine stops, no annoying fire or smoke for the pilot

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_04.jpg

Daimler Benz - quick job

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_05.jpg

Allison - quick job

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_06.jpg

Merlin - quick job

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_07.jpg

But AKA_Tagert doesn´t see it superhuman. Maybe I will repeat the test, will I?

Brain32
12-29-2005, 05:42 PM
LOL, AKA_Tagert I still believe you are just being sarcastic...

ICDP
12-29-2005, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Must not be that obvious to Oleg.. otherwise he would have changed it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe just doean't care that it's broke!

I have flown the LaGG3 and flown against it enough to know that it is completely overmodelled in damage resistance. The only fighters I am happy to saddle up on the tail of a bomber and trade blows with are the LaGG3 and Yak's. I am completely confident that the bomber will lose every single time. Any other fighter requires you to fly smart when taking on a bomber. The LaGG's and Yak's can take an unbelievable ammount of dagamge to their engines (compared to any other inline).

No I don't "got trak", I don't need one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Go and fly it and against it for yourself to see what I mean.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jurinko:
Me-110 rear gunner vs inline engines:

Yak-9

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_01.jpg

slowly lands


LaGG-3 - does not care much

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_03.jpg

LaGG-3 - after 200+ hits the engine stops, no annoying fire or smoke for the pilot

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_04.jpg

Daimler Benz - quick job

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_05.jpg

Allison - quick job

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_06.jpg

Merlin - quick job

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_07.jpg

But AKA_Tagert doesn´t see it superhuman. Maybe I will repeat the test, will I? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Now that is the kind of stuff that Oleg could use.. assuming you have the track files to go along with them? In that Oleg has utilities to see just what was going on at the time of the recording, which in turn helps him figure out what could have caused it. So.. is it safe to assume that someone has sent more than just pictures to Oleg and sent the trak files too?

PS were those AI planes or human? Not that it should maters, just wondering.. In that I have seen AI fly things that I never could.. So maybe there is more to this? Just guessing.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
Or maybe just doean't care that it's broke! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe.. he does have alot on his plate.. but has anyone sent him a track file of this?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
I have flown the LaGG3 and flown against it enough to know that it is completely overmodelled in damage resistance. The only fighters I am happy to saddle up on the tail of a bomber and trade blows with are the LaGG3 and Yak's. I am completely confident that the bomber will lose every single time. Any other fighter requires you to fly smart when taking on a bomber. The LaGG's and Yak's can take an unbelievable ammount of dagamge to their engines (compared to any other inline). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, Im no russian aircraft expert.. but as with some of the German variants.. they made some for ground attack where they had extra armor.. Not saying that is the case here, but if so, it would not be fair to comp a ground attack version to a Bf109 or P40 or Spit.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
No I don't "got trak", I don't need one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That is too bad.. Because your not the one that needs to be convinced, Oleg is, and Oleg would need one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
Go and fly it and against it for yourself to see what I mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>As I have allready said, I have flown them and flown againts them, I dont see them as being superplanes! I have shot them down and been shot down by them.. Again, not saying your wrong or right.. All Im saying is *if* you want Oleg to bother with it.. send him some track files showing it.. Cant hurt, and in a month you will have your answer to if he cares or not, in that now you know for sure that he knows about it.

carguy_
12-29-2005, 07:37 PM
First off , who the h3ll cares if AKA_TAGERT confirms or denies the bug.

Second,AKA_TAGERT is just saying that proper testing and tracks should be sent to Oleg as the normal way of reporting bugs.

Third,yes the issue has been known since v2.04 when we got more complicated DMs.LaGG3 has been left without an update in this deptartment I`m affraid.It may not have the damage boxes where it should,so nor the skin nor the engine reacts to sub-30mm fire like it should.

I don`t think Oleg ever wanted to bother with updating LaGG3 DM.He won`t do it now,that`s for sure.No time,period.

The Yak family fighters have the same problem although everything other than engine is well detailed in DM - you can kill a yak in many many ways.
However,there was a topic where interviewed Soviet WWII pilot said that German machinegun shells are not even able to pierce through ablock of whateveritscalled 105.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
First off , who the h3ll cares if AKA_TAGERT confirms or denies the bug. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is what Im saying!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Second,AKA_TAGERT is just saying that proper testing and tracks should be sent to Oleg as the normal way of reporting bugs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Third,yes the issue has been known since v2.04 when we got more complicated DMs.LaGG3 has been left without an update in this deptartment I`m affraid.It may not have the damage boxes where it should,so nor the skin nor the engine reacts to sub-30mm fire like it should.

I don`t think Oleg ever wanted to bother with updating LaGG3 DM.He won`t do it now,that`s for sure.No time,period.

The Yak family fighters have the same problem although everything other than engine is well detailed in DM - you can kill a yak in many many ways. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Or, he has looked into and found nothing wrong.. Like I said.. I dont see them as superhuman.. but that is just my opinion! Feel free to ignor it, I wont loose any sleep over it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
However, there was a topic where interviewed Soviet WWII pilot said that German machinegun shells are not even able to pierce through a block of what ever its called 105. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, Ill take your word for it.

VW-IceFire
12-29-2005, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Tagert, I hope you aren't seriously arguing that the LaGG-3 DM is functioning like the other DM's in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I have not said either way, but I will say this.. I have not seen the Lagg3 display superman qualities either.. Than again I have not flown it or aginst it that much either, so take that into consideration.

My only point here is all the DMs are a WAG that are based more on a persons preception (i.e. Oleg's preception) than engineering or data. Unlike the FM arguments where real data can be found and tests preformed, a DM is more of a *feeling* therefore if you want to get the Lagg3's DM changed.. you will have to change the way Oleg *feels* about the plane.. Present some pilots accounts, pictures, etc, anything that can support your *feelings* and last but not least, provide him some track files where you think the Lagg3 has absorbed more damage than you *feel* was posable. Since DM's are such a WAG, pilots accounts, pictures, etc are all you need because the whole thing is just a WAG from the get go, unlike FMs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The thing is fairly obviously using a simplified DM as it lacks much of the detail and behaves like hardened concrete. The La-5, 5F, and 5FN are nothing like it in my experience and yet the airframes are related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Must not be that obvious to Oleg.. otherwise he would have changed it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right, I came back into this sort of late so I just jumped in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think the key here is that its not an aircraft thats flown against much these days so it doesn't get the attention.

Most of us are convinced that it simply lacks a complex DM model and this causes a bigger problem than most. While the Spitfires and 109s used in the test have been upgraded or started with more complex DM systems I doubt the LaGG-3 has gotten much attention since FB came out or even IL-2 came out.

But you are right...its sort of a guestimate and we do need to send in some details to Oleg.

VW-IceFire
12-29-2005, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Must not be that obvious to Oleg.. otherwise he would have changed it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe just doean't care that it's broke!

I have flown the LaGG3 and flown against it enough to know that it is completely overmodelled in damage resistance. The only fighters I am happy to saddle up on the tail of a bomber and trade blows with are the LaGG3 and Yak's. I am completely confident that the bomber will lose every single time. Any other fighter requires you to fly smart when taking on a bomber. The LaGG's and Yak's can take an unbelievable ammount of dagamge to their engines (compared to any other inline).

No I don't "got trak", I don't need one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Go and fly it and against it for yourself to see what I mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
While the Yak engine is fairly robust...the rest of the DM is fairly well done and comperable to that of the 109 in terms of detailing.

You can kill Yak's many ways very easily.

Xiolablu3
12-29-2005, 08:56 PM
Its a shame if it doesnt get fixed because its used a lot on my favourite server for the early war Russian scenarios, but to be honest it balances up the game a bit as blue always have much better planes in that period. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nevertheless, even when I am flying blue I still feel sorry for red pilots with lagg3 even with its 'uber' DM.

I guess, like carguy says, its destined never to be fixed, but trust me if any developer is reading this, it IS used a lot on the historical scenario servers, and is not a 'forgotten plane'.

Lagg3/Yak1/IL2 vs 109E/109F2/Me110/Stuka maps are played a lot on UKdedicated1

To be honest,I made this post for a guy who is always going on about the Lagg3 DM and so now I can tell him if hes that bothered to make a track and send it to Oleg.

Thanks.

Blackjack174
12-29-2005, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
However,there was a topic where interviewed Soviet WWII pilot said that German machinegun shells are not even able to pierce through ablock of whateveritscalled 105. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem however is, the P40 field mod with the same engine is a LOT more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif vulnerable to any type of fire than the LaGGs ones.

And I too think to remember that Oleg told (around FB ver1.2) that LaGG had only simple DM ,they didnt do the new internal DM, why however I simply cant grasp (and that they included more series with same bogus sub standard DM is beyond me)
Still, I think even the "simple" DM isnt working right atm.

WWMaxGunz
12-29-2005, 11:45 PM
A shoot-em-up track would be good to send since the shells and hits are recorded.
They can examine and see why, maybe decide to fix what is too good armor or whatever.

Those models are supposed to be made from blueprints, part of why we didn't get certain
Russian planes including Pe's was there are none found. How much work to completely
rework the LaGG-3... all variants?

p1ngu666
12-30-2005, 12:38 AM
the yaks when hit in the engine normaly drop onto 2cv power, the engine is still running but u probably cant taxi the plane with it, VERY low power.

normaly its in the spinner, any hits there kills most engines

GR142-Pipper
12-30-2005, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Seriosly, any and all DM's are based on a WAG anyways, so, it is basically based on a persons preception based on what they have read and some very basic engineering guesses. Problem for you is, Oleg is that guy, not you. So you don€t stand much of a chance in changing Oleg€s "mind" unless you can present some antidotal evidence to support your *feeling*. In light of the FACT that you got NONE of this.. I would recommend that you at LEAST get some track files that show the Lagg3 taking what "you" consider to be too much.. Send them to Oleg and maybe he will take it into consideration and take another WAG at it. But just sitting back and whinning about it is sure to get you nowhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>True. The real bottom line to all of this is that Oleg and company are working on BoB. Period. There has been all kinds of empiricle and anectodal data submitted on many aircraft here (red and blue) and the very same issues exist from patch to patch with few exceptions. Oleg and his team are a small, focused group and their focus just isn't on this product any longer. I really believe that this is the situation and we'll all, in one way or another, just have to choke that down and play the game as it is.

GR142-Pipper

ForkTailedDevil
12-30-2005, 08:19 AM
Other than the P38 I fly the Lagg-3 35 the most often. I feel that the plane is extremely weak. Approaching KI-43 or A6M levels. I am constantly killed in cockpit of I lose the engine to one stray bullet. The fuselage is about the only thing tough on the plane. I think what is really going on here is alot of people have caught the wrong end of the 23mm cannon and are whinning. Also I get murdered when attacking bombers I rarely survive my first pass.

Vike
12-30-2005, 08:21 AM
Ok,as anybody did this,i made two tracks,based on my previous observations. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/1791024783/p/4)

I flew like a real dumb pilot,so as everyone can see the problem. (i hold myself just above Heinkels and i let them shoot at me at will)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif All bots were in Ace mod. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

The first one is:

-Two Lagg3 model-4 (1941) vs 8 He111-H2&H6 (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/VisorVike/videos/IL2Tracks/Lagg3OddDM.ntrk)

The second one is still with Lagg3 model-4 against some He111H6 escorted by two 109-F4s.

-Some more action,but same results. (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/VisorVike/videos/IL2Tracks/Lagg3OddDM2.ntrk)

If you have the feeling that i flew in invicible mod,please look the track till the end...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The Lagg3's DM is astonishing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
May the next patch correct this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[EDIT]: This is my 109th post!http://www.farcry-thegame.com/fr/images/smileys/partyconfetti.gif

jurinko
12-30-2005, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
I lose the engine to one stray bullet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/dm_03.jpg

Then you are obviously doing something wrong.

IIJG69_Kartofe
12-30-2005, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
Other than the P38 I fly the Lagg-3 35 the most often. I feel that the plane is extremely weak. Approaching KI-43 or A6M levels. I am constantly killed in cockpit of I lose the engine to one stray bullet. The fuselage is about the only thing tough on the plane. I think what is really going on here is alot of people have caught the wrong end of the 23mm cannon and are whinning. Also I get murdered when attacking bombers I rarely survive my first pass. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

23 mm Cannon is only available on ONE MODEL OF LAGG3 !!!

We are discussig here of the entire serie of lagg's 3

If you doubt begin to read the entire thread and stop to the Page 3 where a test is proposed, make this test with several planes and come back here to say if your "not so invulnerable lagg 3" is so fragile!

P.S : Dont forget to make traks to prove your says! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GR142-Pipper
12-30-2005, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IIJG69_Kartofe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
Other than the P38 I fly the Lagg-3 35 the most often. I feel that the plane is extremely weak. Approaching KI-43 or A6M levels. I am constantly killed in cockpit of I lose the engine to one stray bullet. The fuselage is about the only thing tough on the plane. I think what is really going on here is alot of people have caught the wrong end of the 23mm cannon and are whinning. Also I get murdered when attacking bombers I rarely survive my first pass. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

23 mm Cannon is only available on ONE MODEL OF LAGG3 !!!

We are discussig here of the entire serie of lagg's 3

If you doubt begin to read the entire thread and stop to the Page 3 where a test is proposed, make this test with several planes and come back here to say if your "not so invulnerable lagg 3" is so fragile!

P.S : Dont forget to make traks to prove your says! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>On-line, the Lagg-3 series is by no means invulnerable. When hit in the wings, it burns fairly easily with wing fires and the engine can definitely be taken out. I wouldn't say it's fragile but it's not made of iron either. It's similar to Yak's and LA's and is much more prone to damage than 190's, 152's and Ki-84's. Again to be clear, this is based on my experiences in on-line play. As an aside, I don't really care how any plane behaves off-line.

....just my take.

GR142-Pipper

p1ngu666
12-30-2005, 07:08 PM
the engine is probably vunrable to being hit from above. incidently thats why fighters and other aircraft have the radiators on the underside, like typhoon, p40 etc

AKA_TAGERT
12-30-2005, 07:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
On-line, the Lagg-3 series is by no means invulnerable. When hit in the wings, it burns fairly easily with wing fires and the engine can definitely be taken out. I wouldn't say it's fragile but it's not made of iron either. It's similar to Yak's and LA's and is much more prone to damage than 190's, 152's and Ki-84's. Again to be clear, this is based on my experiences in on-line play. As an aside, I don't really care how any plane behaves off-line.

....just my take.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%, in that online is the only place I have flown or flown against them.. and I have shot them down and been shot down in them. So, consider this.. Oleg is a reasonable guy.. if he wasn€t, we would not had any patches let alone dozens.. Agreed? Now, there are bugs that creep in from one version to another.. that we all whine about.. But, the folks who say they know this bug well say it has been around for a very Very VERY long time.. over several patches. So, I would find it hard to believe that Oleg has not already looked into this and found what I and several others have found.. That it is no super plane wrt DM. We all have different experiences, that is mine, so yours may be different. So, again, record a track and flood Oleg with them.. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

WWMaxGunz
12-30-2005, 08:37 PM
It should only take one track. They have software tools to tell every detail of every
shot. One good look is all it should take, maybe on an old to-do list. The 151/20 ammo
mixes being swapped goes back to FB and just got fixed this year.

I'm not for bugging the team but IMO they can decide what to do and hopefully they look
or already know.

Badsight.
12-30-2005, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
I think what is really going on here is alot of people have caught the wrong end of the 23mm cannon and are whinning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>or that we know how to fly , & what planes can take what punishment . & that the truth is being re-stated ever since it has since Fb v1.x . & that peeps are trying to play down the truth

VW-IceFire
12-30-2005, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IIJG69_Kartofe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
Other than the P38 I fly the Lagg-3 35 the most often. I feel that the plane is extremely weak. Approaching KI-43 or A6M levels. I am constantly killed in cockpit of I lose the engine to one stray bullet. The fuselage is about the only thing tough on the plane. I think what is really going on here is alot of people have caught the wrong end of the 23mm cannon and are whinning. Also I get murdered when attacking bombers I rarely survive my first pass. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

23 mm Cannon is only available on ONE MODEL OF LAGG3 !!!

We are discussig here of the entire serie of lagg's 3

If you doubt begin to read the entire thread and stop to the Page 3 where a test is proposed, make this test with several planes and come back here to say if your "not so invulnerable lagg 3" is so fragile!

P.S : Dont forget to make traks to prove your says! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>On-line, the Lagg-3 series is by no means invulnerable. When hit in the wings, it burns fairly easily with wing fires and the engine can definitely be taken out. I wouldn't say it's fragile but it's not made of iron either. It's similar to Yak's and LA's and is much more prone to damage than 190's, 152's and Ki-84's. Again to be clear, this is based on my experiences in on-line play. As an aside, I don't really care how any plane behaves off-line.

....just my take.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not similar to the Yaks and La's in that it is either badly damaged or not damaged. Yes you can set the wing on fire...but you can also pound it and nothing will happen. But most of all, you can pound it, nothing will happen, the plane will fly as normal, and then suddenly a single shot lights it on fire.

With La's and Yak's you'll see damaged wings, degraded flight performance, smoke, frequent fuel leaks (the LaGG-3 does leak fuel but often it doesn't happen), parts will become damaged, control cables will cut, and so on. Many of the details are absent or barely present...

Its not that its invulnerable...if that were true you couldn't shoot them down. But when you're flying a Bf110 and you've got the 4x20mm cannons on that and you squarely nail a LaGG-3 with several bursts and not a thing happens then you start to question. A Yak would fly badly after the pounding given and so would a La-5/7 and virtually all other fighters (except maybe the MC.202 which has an even more primitive DM). These aren't one-of occurances.

Vike
12-31-2005, 12:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Its not that its invulnerable...if that were true you couldn't shoot them down. But when you're flying a Bf110 and you've got the 4x20mm cannons on that and you squarely nail a LaGG-3 with several bursts and not a thing happens then you start to question. A Yak would fly badly after the pounding given and so would a La-5/7 and virtually all other fighters (except maybe the MC.202 which has an even more primitive DM). These aren't one-of occurances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Relevant post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sceptic people,please,have a look at the tracks i kindly provide for you at the top of THIS page,thanks.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

@+

Xiolablu3
12-31-2005, 07:09 AM
I fully agree with what Pipper says, Olegs priority is not this game any more, but I thought i would bring this up as it seems like a lot of people have known about it for ages.

Watch Vikes track 2 asnd that is the sort of thing we are talking about, no other fighter could stand up to that amount of mg fire in the game, not even a FW190A. In a Spit or a 109 you have to be careful attacking bombers as more than 3 or 4 mg hits and you are going down.


Yet I have seen even more incredible thingsa than his track from a Lagg3, being hit with multiple MK108 and 4 blue fighters constantly pummeling him with 20mm and 7.62mg but he just refuses to go down, eventually all the 109s run out of ammo and just laugh.

If it is fixed then so be it, if not then we know that they know about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

carguy_
01-01-2006, 02:24 PM
For those interested,trk. of what a LaGG3 taking hits.

http://carguy.dl.interia.pl/tracki/LaGG3.rar

Also please note that mission report states 10hits scored.

http://cad.dsland.org/rep/rep_01190.html

ECV56_Rolf
01-01-2006, 07:13 PM
Just for clearing some growing confussion...

20mm ammo, .50s, and upper takes a LaGG3 down without much trouble, at least off-line.

7.92mm, and the MG151/15 will do nothing to it. No low caliber weapon produce engine damage on a LaGG3.

Some people here sais that a Bf110 can´t shoot down a LaGG3... if it is with 7.92MGs, it's OK, but with 20mm no way. With 20mm they got fire, they broke wings, their engine's stop, etc.

The only thing that it is wrong is that low caliber MG will do no damage to it, that's why the tests were made with He111's.

The same test against B17's, or any .50s bomber, will end in normal damage against the LaGG3.

So, the guy that states that he is being shot down on-line, is right. 20mm shots will do harm. But the whole issue is with low caliber. Stating that 20mm won't do any damage is absurd.

AKA_TAGERT
01-01-2006, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
Just for clearing some growing confussion...

20mm ammo, .50s, and upper takes a LaGG3 down without much trouble, at least off-line.

7.92mm, and the MG151/15 will do nothing to it. No low caliber weapon produce engine damage on a LaGG3.

Some people here sais that a Bf110 can´t shoot down a LaGG3... if it is with 7.92MGs, it's OK, but with 20mm no way. With 20mm they got fire, they broke wings, their engine's stop, etc.

The only thing that it is wrong is that low caliber MG will do no damage to it, that's why the tests were made with He111's.

The same test against B17's, or any .50s bomber, will end in normal damage against the LaGG3.

So, the guy that states that he is being shot down on-line, is right. 20mm shots will do harm. But the whole issue is with low caliber. Stating that 20mm won't do any damage is absurd. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, now that make since and fits what I have seen in my experances

VW-IceFire
01-01-2006, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
Just for clearing some growing confussion...

20mm ammo, .50s, and upper takes a LaGG3 down without much trouble, at least off-line.

7.92mm, and the MG151/15 will do nothing to it. No low caliber weapon produce engine damage on a LaGG3.

Some people here sais that a Bf110 can´t shoot down a LaGG3... if it is with 7.92MGs, it's OK, but with 20mm no way. With 20mm they got fire, they broke wings, their engine's stop, etc.

The only thing that it is wrong is that low caliber MG will do no damage to it, that's why the tests were made with He111's.

The same test against B17's, or any .50s bomber, will end in normal damage against the LaGG3.

So, the guy that states that he is being shot down on-line, is right. 20mm shots will do harm. But the whole issue is with low caliber. Stating that 20mm won't do any damage is absurd. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've hit LaGG-3's in Bf110s with 4 20mm cannons (the extra gondolas on the bottom) multiple times and not produced any significant damage. I mean... I fired bursts and hit wings or fuselage for no damage visible/percieved by the pilot (the guys I'm shooting at are commonly on TeamSpeak so I ask them what they are seeing on their systems).

Its not like this happened once and I'm talking about it. Its happened many times over many months...I've never recorded it...its hard to set out to record something like that but it does happen.

Its just that the damage states are few and far between.

You can hit a LaGG-3 and produce the following:
1) No percieved damage by pilot shooting or pilot flying (visually, flight characteristics, etc)
2) Dewinged
3) Fire on the wing
4) Pilot kill
5) If you pump enough 20mm in the engine will stop but there will be no smoke or oil leaks from the engine

I haven't seen much else from the LaGG-3...personally. I think the tracks we've got speak for themselves that there are many inconsistencies in this aircraft's damage model.

Xiolablu3
01-01-2006, 09:58 PM
It is not just MG fire, it happens with heavy weapons online too. The bombers track was just the easiest way to get a track demonstrating the fact that something is wrong.

Sometimes 20mm and MK108 seem to have little effect. This is definite.

A track will surface eventually to demonstrate, I am sure. Its just if anyone happens to be recording when this happens soon. Its hard to 'catch' something like this in an online random fight.

AKA_TAGERT
01-02-2006, 12:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
A track will surface eventually to demonstrate, I am sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Me too, but until than, Ill have to stick with my experances.

Vike
01-02-2006, 01:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
Just for clearing some growing confussion...

20mm ammo, .50s, and upper takes a LaGG3 down without much trouble, at least off-line.

7.92mm, and the MG151/15 will do nothing to it. No low caliber weapon produce engine damage on a LaGG3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Relevant too! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I did some heavy tests in QMB with 8vs8 "Ace mod for all" botmatches against Lagg3s (29 & 35 series);
I used Me109-F2s then F4,G2 and finally...ehem K4s (...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Results:

-K4s made them dust,not surprising.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

-F4/G2s did some wing-cuts,but most of the time,Lagg3 ace pilots kindly bailed though their planes were almost not damaged after taking 2 or 3 shots right in fuselage.

(But what about an online Lagg3 player who doesn't care the 20mm shells which hit him,as his plane can't have fuel leak,gunsight broken,even a dying engine?? (see my quote of Plumps here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/1791024783/p/4))

=&gt;
He continues to fly & fight,as if nothing happened.I saw that two days ago on UK-D:
I made three 20mm hits in one pass with my 109-G2 onto a Lagg3 nose between its propeller and cockpit then,surprisingly,the Lagg3 pilot kept on chasing the plane i was defending as if i did nothing!http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif)

-F2s had some difficulties that i found quite normal,as the MG151/15mm canon modelled in the sim hasn't exploding shells...
But even with shooting in snapshot (face to face in the beginning of the engagement) the Lagg3s'engines didn't suffer at all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

End of tests.

Quite astonished,i decided to make an improbable 8vs8 "Ace mod for all" Botmatch with Me109-F2s against 1944 P-51Ds.

We won.My wingman even managed to explode an escaping P-51D with a ~25 seconds burst!

I know that the P-51D had a fragile engine,but the fact that the entire plane exploded with this huge Mg-17/MG151-15 burst,makes me logically think that the 1941/42 Lagg3s are tougher than the 1944 P-51Ds...!? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Be sure,boycott Lagg3s on all servers allover the world! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

@+

Ps:

Here are two tracks i realised in Lagg3 against He111s,which show clearly the thing:

-Two Lagg3 model-4 (1941) vs 8 He111-H2&H6 (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/VisorVike/videos/IL2Tracks/Lagg3OddDM.ntrk)

-Some Lagg3s against He111-H2&H6 escorted by two Me109s (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/VisorVike/videos/IL2Tracks/Lagg3OddDM2.ntrk)

Ps2:

I'm really sorry to make that sort of whining about that plane,as i realise the incredible amount of super-hard-work that has been made for that sim,but i think this Lagg3 DamageModel problem is enormous,really ENORMOUS! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

anarchy52
01-02-2006, 01:38 AM
Unfortunatelly, LaGG-2 is a very important part of the planeset in mid-war eastern front scenarios. Currently, you are very likely to encounter LaGG-3 in online wars. It's very frustrating when you observe cannon hits on the engine and wings and LaGG proceeds like nothing happened.
No loss of engine performance, no loss of already highly overmodelled manuverability. According to pilots, you were not likely to come home after being hit by 20mm HE in the wing (Kozhemyako).

I guess mk108 is the only option to reliably take out LaGG-3...ridiculous.

GR142-Pipper
01-02-2006, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
Unfortunatelly, LaGG-2 is a very important part of the planeset in mid-war eastern front scenarios. Currently, you are very likely to encounter LaGG-3 in online wars. It's very frustrating when you observe cannon hits on the engine and wings and LaGG proceeds like nothing happened.
No loss of engine performance, no loss of already highly overmodelled manuverability. According to pilots, you were not likely to come home after being hit by 20mm HE in the wing (Kozhemyako).

I guess mk108 is the only option to reliably take out LaGG-3...ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Respectfully, you don't need a Mk-108 to take out a LaGG and what you're saying about the LaGG is clearly an overstatement. Yes, it's hearty...like a P-40 is...but it's just not the invulnerable plane you're trying to make it out to be. As mentioned before, I fly the Yaks, LAs and the LaGGs and the plane reacts to hits in very much a similar manner to the Yaks and LAs. You're certainly entitled to your point of view but in my opinion this is just going way overboard.

Personally, the reason that I think this thread was begun is the result of Oleg and Company destabalizing the turn characteristics of Yaks in 4.02 so LaGGs have become a more commonly encountered alternate. And they've proven to be tough in engagements. Are the LaGG's flight and damage models absolute gospel as far as historical accuracy is concerned? No. However, it ought to be pretty clear to many who visit these forums that MANY of the aircraft (red and blue) have serious modeling shortcomings in their flight and/or damage models and these inaccuracies have existed for YEARS (and many still exist). Some modeling is completely and openly ficticious (to: wit the Bf-109Z, Gotha 229, etc.). As a matter of fact, I can think of very few major fighter aircraft that don't have some serious issues in one or more areas.

Sometimes when software revisions are introduced the blue aircraft get a little extra or a little less and sometimes the red aircraft do. It's just the way things are and it's not going to change. So where does that leave us? Just enjoy the game and recognize that it's imperfect...and always will be.

GR142-Pipper

Sintubin
01-02-2006, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
Unfortunatelly, LaGG-2 is a very important part of the planeset in mid-war eastern front scenarios. Currently, you are very likely to encounter LaGG-3 in online wars. It's very frustrating when you observe cannon hits on the engine and wings and LaGG proceeds like nothing happened.
No loss of engine performance, no loss of already highly overmodelled manuverability. According to pilots, you were not likely to come home after being hit by 20mm HE in the wing (Kozhemyako).

I guess mk108 is the only option to reliably take out LaGG-3...ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Respectfully, you don't need a Mk-108 to take out a LaGG and what you're saying about the LaGG is clearly an overstatement. Yes, it's hearty...like a P-40 is...but it's just not the invulnerable plane you're trying to make it out to be. As mentioned before, I fly the Yaks, LAs and the LaGGs and the plane reacts to hits in very much a similar manner to the Yaks and LAs. You're certainly entitled to your point of view but in my opinion this is just going way overboard.

Personally, the reason that I think this thread was begun is the result of Oleg and Company destabalizing the turn characteristics of Yaks in 4.02 so LaGGs have become a more commonly encountered alternate. And they've proven to be tough in engagements. Are the LaGG's flight and damage models absolute gospel as far as historical accuracy is concerned? No. However, it ought to be pretty clear to many who visit these forums that MANY of the aircraft (red and blue) have serious modeling shortcomings in their flight and/or damage models and these inaccuracies have existed for YEARS (and many still exist). Some modeling is completely and openly ficticious (to: wit the Bf-109Z, Gotha 229, etc.). As a matter of fact, I can think of very few major fighter aircraft that don't have some serious issues in one or more areas.

Sometimes when software revisions are introduced the blue aircraft get a little extra or a little less and sometimes the red aircraft do. It's just the way things are and it's not going to change. So where does that leave us? Just enjoy the game and recognize that it's imperfect...and always will be.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watching these baord here i now thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

that you Pipper dont care about historical DM and FM at least wat red planes concerns " here it is the Lagg-3"

as lang that red planes are faster stronger etc.. BETHER then bleu for you is every thing ok

No matter how hard you try to trow BS in here saying that the LAGG-3 is ok of DM and FM( ---&gt; that makes my statement evern stronger )

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


you are WRONG http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Lagg DM and FM is plaint wrong in each word of the sense http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It has been proven and sended to the Dev team

And stil you saying that LAGG-3 is ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
01-02-2006, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Personally, the reason that I think this thread was begun is the result of Oleg and Company destabalizing the turn characteristics of Yaks in 4.02 so LaGGs have become a more commonly encountered alternate. And they've proven to be tough in engagements. Are the LaGG's flight and damage models absolute gospel as far as historical accuracy is concerned? No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry ! disagee 100%

When i encounter a lagg in combat i know i can dogfight with him, NEVER with a yak! Again a médium to average pilot this is too dangerous and suicidal again a good pilot, so your FM degradation of the yaks don't stand, there is an another reason. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Mayb with a lagg i can come back home more often and "make more points".

Where did you read that the RL lagg3 was a tough plane?
Everything i've read says the opposite!

Wooden planes are very fragiles Vs cannons fire.

joeap
01-02-2006, 06:28 AM
I think it is clear to everyone with some fair-mindedness whether blue or red oriented (I fly both) the LaGG DM is odd and not as sophisticated as the other planes...I have no fear shooting down HE-111s in this plane as opposed to other planes. That is not correct.

A shame would like the challenge of flying the "wood coffin."

WWMaxGunz
01-02-2006, 11:25 AM
There is the 3D model with damage values and hits and there is the graphics.
If the graphics is coarse due to fewer damage textures it don't fully follow that the
underlying model is equally coarse. It has to run on the same engine as the other
planes. Same steps with maybe a less detailed 3D model? More damage to remove a bigger
composite part compared to later addon planes? BUT the damage is either happening or not.

If a P-51 gets blowed up real good (ty 2nd City TV!) by a 109F2 on a short burst, I'd
say it must have hit the big rear fuel tank kaboomer esp if the shot came as deflection.
Easier shot than a PK, the pilot has the most armor. What's "I seen that online" prove?
Other times online, you can hit another plane and with lag his PC sees no hit.

msalama
01-02-2006, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It has been proven and sended to the Dev team </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly WHERE has it been proven? Care to post a link or something?

Now please don't read ANYTHING superfluous into those questions. I did _not_, for example, claim that the LaGG-3 DM is correct as it is. I just want to see the proof myself if it indeed exists...

anarchy52
01-02-2006, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It has been proven and sended to the Dev team </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly WHERE has it been proven? Care to post a link or something?

Now please don't read ANYTHING superfluous into those questions. I did _not_, for example, claim that the LaGG-3 DM is correct as it is. I just want to see the proof myself if it indeed exists... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Msalma, look in the dictionary under hypocrite.

There is no point in providing more evidence that LaGG-3 is ridiculous:
a) because it's obvious to anyone who ever played this game
b) Because it has been proven with tracks, screenshots and player experiences beyond any shade of doubt.
c) because it won't be fixed
d) because it will feed more trolls and hypocrites which claim that either LaGG is OK or demand "more proof" despite knowing very well what bull$hit LaGG-3 DM is.

Hypocrisy is a disgusting character trait indeed. WWII is over,they should have taught you that in school.

P.S. I wonder how much proof was needed when FW-190 wasn't leaking fuel to get back to the 3 minute fuel tank firehose leak from .50 cal hit?

Brain32
01-02-2006, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> P.S. I wonder how much proof was needed when FW-190 wasn't leaking fuel to get back to the 3 minute fuel tank firehose leak from .50 cal hit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question, but don't worry they will just ignore it like they always do when one asks something like that...

F19_Olli72
01-02-2006, 01:38 PM
Without beeing drawn into a flamepost, i did try the Lagg-3 (series 4) against four HE-111 with AI set to "ace"in QMB in arcade mode. No matter what i tried, not a single damage was done to the plane itself, only the pilot.

I got track but nowhere to host, but then again its simple enough to test in QMB & arcade mode.

msalama
01-02-2006, 01:53 PM
Yakkety yakkety. You getting a bit emotional there boyo?

Now please be a good dimwit and re-read my question. I explicitly asked to see the proof if it EXISTS, and I've also already ACKNOWLEDGED (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/1791024783/p/3)in this thread that such proof is in fact VERY hard, if not impossible, to find in cases like this. So what the f**k exactly is your point there, boyo?

Badsight.
01-02-2006, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
Now please don't read ANYTHING superfluous into those questions. I did _not_, for example, claim that the LaGG-3 DM is correct as it is. I just want to see the proof myself if it indeed exists... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>fly it

its easy to see

msalama
01-02-2006, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">its easy to see </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it's easy to see. That's not the point. I'm just curious to see if someone has actually PROVEN the DM incorrect...

Kocur_
01-02-2006, 02:55 PM
Everything is just fine! Everybody knows that plywood is so much more weight efficient than light alloys. As much as eveybody knows it is correct that Yak-3s are modelled not to burn, because they used inflammable avgas. Be sure!

badatflyski
01-02-2006, 03:20 PM
"some kind" of real proof about the lagg3...
Walter Nowotny Jg54 : 258 kills in total.
Number of Lagg3/5 (not LA5) killed :86! 1/3 of his scoreboard are Lagg3! and not all have been killed by the fw190, but also by the simple 109F2/F4....but als usual...red plane, nothing wrong with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

joeap
01-02-2006, 03:25 PM
Please stop this "red plane" c#$% I agree with you no need to make it political.

VW-IceFire
01-02-2006, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">its easy to see </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it's easy to see. That's not the point. I'm just curious to see if someone has actually PROVEN the DM incorrect... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since there are no official or unofficial tests made with the actual aircraft that I'm aware of we have two alternate sources of information.

1) By the games own standards - Cross comparison of similar types of aircraft already present in the game and displaying what is considered "normal" DM behavior. We can use the La-5 as a fairly good comparison as its based heavily on the LaGG-3 design and yet displays none of these properties. Infact the La-5's radial engine is more vulnerable than the LaGG-3's inline engine which by nearly all accounts is wrong.
2) By whatever pilot accounts and information we can dig up anecdotally - The LaGG was called a varnished flying coffin (or something to that effect) by Russian pilots, the Germans said it burned easily, the Russians complained about the quality of the aircraft arriving (fixed later in the series), the LaGG-3 has been writen about that it was underpowered, that its combat speed was poor, and that it accelerated slowly.

Its not bullet proof but I'm going to guess that someone from 1C will probably just confirm that the LaGG-3 is using a simplified damage model.

GR142-Pipper
01-02-2006, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IIJG69_Kartofe:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Personally, the reason that I think this thread was begun is the result of Oleg and Company destabalizing the turn characteristics of Yaks in 4.02 so LaGGs have become a more commonly encountered alternate. And they've proven to be tough in engagements. Are the LaGG's flight and damage models absolute gospel as far as historical accuracy is concerned? No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sorry ! disagee 100%

When i encounter a lagg in combat i know i can dogfight with him, NEVER with a yak! Again a médium to average pilot this is too dangerous and suicidal again a good pilot, so your FM degradation of the yaks don't stand, there is an another reason. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Mayb with a lagg i can come back home more often and "make more points". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I've flown the Yak series in this game for three years and I'm very familiar with them. In 4.02, Oleg made the the Yaks much more prone to departure in hard turns with his engine torque modeling. Furthermore, as YOU have included my quote above, the last to sentences clearly state that it could very well be that the LaGG's flight and damage models are indeed off (to wit: "Are the LaGG's flight and damage models absolute gospel as far as historical accuracy is concerned? No."). Howver, keep in mind that the very same things can be said of MANY of these aircraft (to wit: where did you ever read that the 109G-2 in real life was regarded as a good turner? Probably nowhere because it wasn't but Oleg has certainly modeled it that way in this game. Fact. So we deal with it.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Where did you read that the RL lagg3 was a tough plane?
Everything i've read says the opposite! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The LaGG is a tough fight AS MODELED IN THIS GAME.

Friendly and respectful message to you, Sintubin and Anarchy: PLEASE READ THE POSTS BEFORE REPLYING TO WORDS THAT AREN'T THERE.

GR142-Pipper

Brain32
01-02-2006, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> where did you ever read that the 109G-2 in real life was regarded as a good turner? Probably nowhere because it wasn't but Oleg has certainly modeled it that way in this game. Fact. So we deal with it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Unknown-Pilot
01-02-2006, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> where did you ever read that the 109G-2 in real life was regarded as a good turner? Probably nowhere because it wasn't but Oleg has certainly modeled it that way in this game. Fact. So we deal with it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 And the same response (above) to the comments about the 109Z and 229.

Xiolablu3
01-02-2006, 08:32 PM
Thx for your inputs, lets not get into a flamefest, we just want to prove that there is something wrong with the DM on the Lagg3.

A few people are trying to get a proper track of this strange 'online toughness' of the lagg3.

I know its possible to blow lagg3's apart easily with cannon in QMB, I have tried it myself, but something is not right with it online.

I know we have proved the MG fire bug, but there is more wrong than just that, once a track appears in the next few weeks, it will be proven I hope.

Thanks.

JtD
01-03-2006, 04:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
... As much as eveybody knows it is correct that Yak-3s are modelled not to burn, because they used inflammable avgas... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get the facts right:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/burns.jpg

Kocur_
01-03-2006, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
... As much as eveybody knows it is correct that Yak-3s are modelled not to burn, because they used inflammable avgas... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get the facts right:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/burns.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were to be mean, I would ask "Where do you see word "engine" in my post?". But avgas is present in the engine too, so I cant, can I. Still avgas in FUEL TANKS of Yaks does not burn. Wings can be full of holes, tanks leak like crazy but never burn. There is fire only if wing is cut off (the same was in case of Fw-190s fuselage in 3.01), but unlike other planes, Yaks' fuels tanks are inflammable.

JtD
01-03-2006, 01:46 PM
Rgr, I'll post a picture of a fuel tank fire when I happen to see one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
01-03-2006, 02:22 PM
In two weeks I guess http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifsssomething tells me you tried to start a fuel tank fire on a Yak, but... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)


On a side note:
Now, lets compare level of interest, dedication and effort to find out if its true, that Yaks fuel tanks dont burn, to similar situation concerning Fw-190s in 4.01. Not to mention rapidness of dev. team responce.

WWMaxGunz
01-03-2006, 08:14 PM
Was Yak-3 one of the Russian fighters that had cooled exhaust gasses vented into the space
above the fuel in the tanks? There were some. Exhaust fumes don't burn AVGAS very well
but then fire -in- the tank should make a kaboom anyway.

There is no leak inside the wings and fuse then burn there that I've seen in thee models.
Just now I can't think of any sim that has that either.

Kocur_
01-03-2006, 10:15 PM
1. EDIT: The system was present in Yaks.
2. Still such a system would prevent explosion of fuel fumes inside of tank. It had nothing to do with fire of fuel leaking from the tank, obviously.

Jumoschwanz
01-04-2006, 08:54 AM
I shot a Lagg3 down online the other night, it did take a lot of damage, but I didn't think any more than a Spit will take before it goes down.

On the other hand I have a fantastic track I made in the QMB of a Lagg3 taking a fantastic number of hits from HE-111 gunners and flying on and on like someone is throwing handfulls of confetti at it.

If someone wants the track let me know and I will mail it to them, or let me know a good place to host the file and I will try and post it here myself.

Jumoschwanz

mortoma
01-04-2006, 03:44 PM
I decided to take the LaGG-3 out of my Leningrad41.DB file so as not to run into them in my Finnish campaign any more. In that campaign I'm currently flying a J8A Gladiator, and I noticed every time we came up against them neither me, nor my AI buddies were able to bring down a LaGG with our Mgs. I know that we routinely bring down both types of I-16s and the I-153s too. The only way to kill a LaGG with Mgs is get a lucky PK, that's the only way. This is not accurate at all, as the engines of LaGGs should be just as vulnerable as the engines on the other planes in general.

Also the fuel tanks should be lightable with Mg ammo. In my DB file I have substituted the Yak-7A to take it's place. I'm sure we will be able to bring those down too.

I also wonder why Oleg says he can't change the DM on the LaGG, when he did just that in the case of the I-16s, which used to have a DM so tough you'd think the I-16s were made out of titanium!! Does anyone remember the titanium I-16s??? I sure do. So if Oleg was able to fix the DM of the I-16, then he should be able to do the same thing with the LaGGs, period.......

joeap
01-04-2006, 04:33 PM
´? oui yes ja hai si

carguy_
01-05-2006, 03:13 AM
Yes,mortome I also wanted to mention it.The I-16/I153 got good DM models since 2.04 I think.Tis happening after moderate whines that have been summed up with few good DM threads.One of the bigger patches introduced I16/I153 very vulnerable to AP ammo.The community though aknowledged that the wooden structure of those two planes,also the Hurricane ,were in real life better in defending from HE shells.

The fact is now,that if you fire a HE shell at those planes,they will go on flying.Sawing wings off iss fairly difficult.PK and engine damage-explosion are the most frequent ways to down them.

Hurricane/LaGG3/I153/I16 have something in common.You will be spraying them in the tail - it will not be torn off,it will not be put on fire.Even it takes a considerable time to make the skin turn into a damaged texture(ie.bullet holes appearance).From dead six you can fire all you want,until you hit the pilot.Also all those planes have far stronger engine DM than say Me109 or Mig.

WWMaxGunz
01-05-2006, 06:51 AM
Deltawood structure. Be sure or find out.

The wood itself was plastic-impregnated birch plywood, very strong and also fire-resistant.
You make a shell that spreads the stress and one part can take damage while the rest holds
together. If the material itself does not transmit shock well (metal transmits shock very
well btw) then explosion damage will be limited. The stuff is dense and dense, heavy things
will absorb shock far better than light things. Add the ability to flex slightly and yeah
the plane should hold together well.

We've had one guy here relate how he has built a hand-layered birch ply boat hull and all
what that can take and how thin it is, how light. Imagine heavier and stronger from high
temperature and pressure plastic impregnation and you have some idea of the LaGG.

So why they went to metal when they could? Easier to work, longer lasting and lighter...
better to build a plane that might get hit less than one that can take more hits. British
Mossies got back riddled with shell holes from flak and fighters (was just reading from a
diary) and they were plywood and balsa sandwich construction.

Is the in-game LaGG-3 right? Just send in the tracks. Delta wood can take being damaged
but how much to stop a shell with any delay on the fuse? The shots should pass through.
Otherwise I can't see how they wouldn't have made light tanks and APC's from it. If the
engine is right there then hey, the track has the info.

WWMaxGunz
01-05-2006, 07:18 AM
Interesting link: (must be a fanboy, right?)

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/deshist.html

Lots of details to ponder.

Kocur_
01-05-2006, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Deltawood structure. Be sure or find out.

The wood itself was plastic-impregnated birch plywood, very strong and also fire-resistant.
You make a shell that spreads the stress and one part can take damage while the rest holds
together. If the material itself does not transmit shock well (metal transmits shock very
well btw) then explosion damage will be limited. The stuff is dense and dense, heavy things
will absorb shock far better than light things. Add the ability to flex slightly and yeah
the plane should hold together well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Delta-drevesina was wood treated with various chemicals, in quite a complicated process, not just "plastic impregnated". Its development was closely related to I-301 development. Problem is that some of those chemicals were imported. From Germany... So after war with Germany broke, instead of delta-drevesina of qualities you mention, they used plain plywood: spruce, pine and birch. Bakelised or impregnated wood or plywood was an ordinary material for years in those days, and didnt have any unusual qualities.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We've had one guy here relate how he has built a hand-layered birch ply boat hull and all
what that can take and how thin it is, how light. Imagine heavier and stronger from high
temperature and pressure plastic impregnation and you have some idea of the LaGG. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, its a technology well known. It takes initial frame shaped like object to be created, to which veneer strips are attached, than another layer of strips in glued, positioned crosswisely to previous, and so on. Such a technology, originating from boats, was used in planes production during WW1 and 1920s. But that has little to do with LaGGs and Las, for their fuselages were made in usual semi-monocoque technology. The difference was that frames, longerons and skin were made of wood instead of light alloy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So why they went to metal when they could? Easier to work, longer lasting and lighter...
better to build a plane that might get hit less than one that can take more hits. British
Mossies got back riddled with shell holes from flak and fighters (was just reading from a
diary) and they were plywood and balsa sandwich construction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question should be reversed - why did they choose to use wood instead of light alloys in the first place? The answer is similar to Mosquito case. Simply wood was available in large quantity, not being 'strategic' material. One has to remember how limited was soviet high quality aluminium production. From the beginning LaGGs were to be a bit second grade fighters. Being heavier and designed in better technology than Yaks, their primary role was to be bombers destroyers. Both because of their good and bad features...

Indeed if a LaGG-3 happened to be of proper quality, i.e. skin wouldnt get unglued, entire structure wouldnt bend, it wouldnt soak water, etc., it could be considered among VVS as quite a sturdy plane. But compared to what!? Mostly to Yaks, which fuselage would break at any stress if any of tubes or wires making internal framework would be shot and broken, which wooden wings and entire plywood/fabric skin would be torn off by HE projectiles explosions, etc. Simply put Yaks were made in pathetically obsolete technology, while LaGGs, having wooden, but semi-monocouque fuselage were a great step forwards.

Still wood structure has worse weight efficiency, than similar structure made of aluminium. In another words, if you had LaGG size fuselage made of aluminium and of the same wight - it would be more sturdy. And the other way: if that aluminium structure was to have sturdiness equal to LaGG's, it would be lighter. Better weight efficiency of aluminium is the very reason thay make planes of light alloys, and not of wood.

p1ngu666
01-05-2006, 10:21 AM
wood for the same strength is bigger, thats partly why the mossie was tough, a bullet hole wouldnt knock out certain parts, like it would do on a aluminium piece that was smaller...

WWMaxGunz
01-05-2006, 08:31 PM
Oh I agree Kocur. You compare different strengths of proper heat treat aluminum to wood
and the wood loses. Before becoming a programmer my schooling and work were in fabrication
of all sorts of materials. But always remember that composites can be amazing if used
right and wood is itself a natural composite. Sometimes the wood is better not just for
cheaper cost. How long now has glass and foam composites beaten metal in many ways? Wood
comes back and will keep doing so. Maybe future we will see genetic-altered trees even.

Yes, the deltawood process I think Oleg wrote the chemicals (polymer forming?) were put
into the wood at very high temperature and pressure like 2000 psi... what is used in
plastic injection molds (they tend to run in around 450 F degrees depending on the plastic)
to make sure the mold gets filled. What I wonder is if that part of the process is used
on the assembled/stacked plys or done on thin layers that are bonded in a later stage
like, how deeply the chemicals get through. It is very interesting especially with what
might be done with the newer chemicals these days.

There is also that the wood of those planes was still very vulnerable to water/humidity
and things like mold. Wasn't that also the deltawood? Couldn't they have sealed it?
Perhaps too much weight or too easy burned. Stalin put pipe coals on a piece of the
stuff for one minute and then looked and there was no scorching at all.

My point was that the weight of the LaGG more than offset the toughness of it. From all I
have read and heard besides forum posts, the LaGG-3 had ability to soak damage like the P-40
of the same time. More than just "not lightweight" but less than perhaps FW or P-47. Or
maybe about like FW? Only... with so much weight more likely to be caught than same plane
only lighter. That link, it shows the turning point as when the M-82 engines were fitted
and it got an extra 10% speed. Before that, the LaGG program was going to be edged out and
shut down. So it doesn't turn so quick? If it is fast enough it should not need to!

Kocur_
01-05-2006, 10:25 PM
There is something we are omitting: Ryzhkovs delta-drevesina, was used as material of wing spars and fuselage frames/longerons only, in LaGGs prototypes! Even in those prototypes entire skin was made of ordinary bakelised plywood. And in case of semi-monocoque design it is skin to carry pars leonis of stresses.

Btw: my guess about the reason for LaGGs to soak water was using unprotected and low quality plywood for skin.



I think that we agree that even though all qualities of (ply)wood, constructin made of it is(was) less weight efficient (weight to strenght) than aluminium one. So simply we should expect LaGG-3 to be weaker than contemporary all-metal plane of similar weight of airframe.

WWMaxGunz
01-06-2006, 10:11 AM
But also weaker to specific shell damage? Aircraft structural aluminum I've worked with,
not the skin metal but the T6 heat treat (like 6061-T6) is strong as steel but will crack
if stressed in the wrong way/direction. The crystals line up like fibers. We were asked
to try and bend some T6 sheet and no, it would not bend or shear cleanly. Really you're
supposed to form the part then heat treat it. Hit that with a shell and I can see that
it will either crack or transmit the full shock to everything it is attached to. Shearing
rivets or bolts is I think possible. Rigid and solid therefore is not always best.

Regular plywood skin. Wouldn't incendiaries that explode inside wing and fuselage cause
more fire with that than metal? It leaves me to wonder at the models, perhaps the LaGGs
we have are 100% deltawood.

Kocur_
01-06-2006, 10:39 AM
Oh, there are all kinds of alloys. Aluminum alloys used in WW2 must have been not brittle, as I never saw anything close to crack lines around hole after hit, either ball or HE. Quite the opposite - holes after internal HE explosions have edges bent outside. The same goes to shearing rivets by hits, as all WW2 all-metal warbirds were riveted (aluminium spot welding was quite a new technology) and I've never seen pics or read of rivets sheared. It did happen to some of early WW2 AFVs of riveted contruction, but obviously armour steel is a material of qualities very different to airplanes aluminium alloys.
I've seen pic of Fw-190 with large hole, almost as big as side surface in the aft fuselage. Plane landed home safely and only after full landing fuselage got bent a little bit under pressure of weight of the plane applied on the tail-wheel.

I would rather accuse dry plywood of being brittle and HE explosions causing holes and tearing wood splinters from delaminated layers around actual hole.

WWMaxGunz
01-06-2006, 11:12 AM
Skin metal is always a softer heat treat. It must be as it is formed, hammered gently to
prevent stretching, over the structure. But I take your understanding. Rivets sheared
or snapped you see where whole or large parts of panels rip off and maybe more due to
wind than explosive blast on square area from inside the skin. Attachment of wood to be
stronger than that, 1/2 to 3/4 mm of unhardened aluminum skin with rivets, is imaginable
but that would be thick plywood and steel screws and glue at the least -- the weight would
be many times the metal skin.
I think you are far more right, simply. Hope Oleg sees and decides the plane is worth at
least tweaking the strengths and ease of fire for the LaGG is worth the time. Tweak does
not require rework after all. Otherwise I can see the way it's going, many servers not
running LaGG's even for Russian Theatre and others... well best not to go there.
I have seen figures for tonnages of aluminum sent to Russia as well as for other materials
but I don't know how much the U-boats got. It's a long way from US coast to Murmansk.
What Russians got in materials I think they more than paid for in blood both Russian and
German/Axis. Really it is a terrible thing these games skirt around.

LGN1
02-10-2006, 08:10 AM
Hi,

Thanks a lot for the patch!!!!!


Just a small question:
I had no time to test the new patch yet, are there any changes in the damage model of the LaGG?

Regards, LGN1

WB_Outlaw
02-10-2006, 11:20 AM
I did a test and it appears to be the same. Early Hurricanes with .303 mgs can pound the living heck out of it with little effect. It looks to me like the best you can hope for is a pilot kill.

The first test I did with 15mm cannon did massive damage (visible) to the wing resulting in a pilot bail out. Subsequent test were nearly futile.

20mm cannon and above demolish the Lagg.

I didn't try the fifties again.

--Outlaw.